[Hx] Helix Client shared server for Monterey users

[Gary Cosimini]

Here’s an approach I’m developing to provide Client access to users on iMacs running Monterey.


We have a network of 8 users and are replacing our 2013-2017 iMacs for new M1 iMacs running Monterey.

Our business (combined art gallery/research foundation) is dependent on two superannuated databases, 4D (boo) and Helix (yay).

The 4D database with be replaced by a cloud-based inventory/contacts/web system over the course of the next few months, but there is no replacement possible for my complex Helix application.


So I need to maintain Helix (and 4D, for the time being) client connectivity for the M1 iMac users.


I heard an idea from a system consultant that I plan to test: use a Mini running Mojave as a screen-sharing server, with a login for each of the eight users). The only applications they would have on their logins would be Helix Client and 4D Client; the database both reside on another server.


Our LAN is very fast and neither database is, from the client perspective, very complicated.

Has anyone had any experience with multi-user logins? Any gotchas: why this won’t work?


Your feedback would be most welcome...

Gary


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[Wade Brezina]

Gary,

I have made limited use of this for many years.  IIRC it was somewhere around 10.7 or so that they made the change so that multiple users could each have their own login.  Gene did this several years ago in production and will hopefully chime in as he has more experience with it in production than I have. Mostly so far I have used it for me personally for testing purposes.

The biggest gotchas relate to monitors.  If the server is headless you will need an adapter in order to get multiple resolutions. The default is just too small. No big deal although I can't remember exactly what I have plugged into a garbage can server that I use headless. Some kind of HDMI thing that wasn't very expensive. The only real drawback for Helix is the way multiple monitors are supported.  Not sure if this has changed with Monterey but from certainly el cap and just tested on Mojave, the screen sharing window can only use one monitor.  You can choose to see both monitors on the host but they will have to fit in one screen sharing window. You can just look at one monitor at a time and switch back and forth or see both but only on one of your machines. If it could be worked out so that if you have two monitors and the machine you are sharing with had two monitors and you could expand the screen sharing window to use both your monitors and display both that would be perfection. Not a deal breaker though.

This next thing isn't a gotcha but when I had remote users using the same mac as local users it is an issue that you need to take into account. The physical machine monitor and keyboard work with the first user that logs in.  Therefore, if a remote user logs in with their user and the physical user wants to use the machine, the remote user must be logged out.  When the machine goes back to the log in screen the physical user can log in and have control of the monitor(s) and keyboard. At that point the remote users can log in with their own user accounts and the screen sharing will provide the keyboard and monitor.

Actually haven't used Mojave as a screen sharing server and given the number of things that no longer work reliably since Sierra it may be possible that this is not up to par any longer but as a client Mojave seems to be just fine. I use screen sharing every day and have issues with Mojave every day but I don't think screen sharing is one of those issues beyond the fact that prior to Mojave whenever I plugged in my external monitor the screen sharing window would automatically move to it and now I have to drag it over there by hand every time.

There is one bit of magic that I don't get and would seriously consider putting a Helix client in each user space. However if you look at the picture below you can see that it does work with two different users running the same app out of the root level applications folder. No clue how this works. Let me explain the picture below.  As I said I live in screen sharing. The Helix Server window is one of the helix servers I administer. I saw that Mike was logged in as a client to the Helix server.  From the Helix server I screen shared with Mike using a different user. He didn't know anything was going on and my client was completely responsive and I am sure it didn't affect him one bit. Once I was logged into his computer on a different user account I started the helix client and visited the server. You can see the shipment navigator that is a Helix screen on his laptop from my user space. Have no idea what helix screens he had open. You can see the client info screen from the helix server and you can see that both he and I are logged into the helix server from the same machine using the same Helix client app. Magic!

Now if Mike would have shut his machine down I would be out of luck. That is one potential problem that you could run into.  Assume all user accounts that you will be using for this will be non admin so I don't think they will be able to reboot the machine but I am not certain if they could shut it down.

Hopefully this is still all valid for Monterey. Hopefully Monterey made some of it even better. I don't expect to know. FWIW I have used this with my phone and linux box as well. Works very well within the limitations of the phone size and virtual keyboard. Linux doesn't have drag and drop file transfers like screen sharing does. However, the file sharing is excellent so it can work with just a little inconvenience. Yes I actually have done Helix development from a Linux box.

Hope this is useful to you.

Wade

[Tim]

Are  VPN's other than Screen Sharing possible?
Tim B.

On 10/27/21 8:35 PM, Wade Brezina wrote:
> Gary,

>
> This next thing isn't a gotcha but when I had remote users using the
> same mac as local users it is an issue that you need to take into
> account. The physical machine monitor and keyboard work with the first
> user that logs in.  Therefore, if a remote user logs in with their
> user and the physical user wants to use the machine, the remote user
> must be logged out.  When the machine goes back to the log in screen
> the physical user can log in and have control of the monitor(s) and
> keyboard. At that point the remote users can log in with their own
> user accounts and the screen sharing will provide the keyboard and
> monitor.

[Gary Cosimini]

Hi Wade

Thank you for the huge information dump!

On Oct 27, 2021, at 11:35 PM, Wade Brezina <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

The biggest gotchas relate to monitors... 

Understood. I’ll connect some cheap 21” monitor.

The physical machine monitor and keyboard work with the first user that logs in... 

 Other than setup, I don’t plan to access the Mini except unless there’s a problem.

Actually haven't used Mojave as a screen sharing server and given the number of things that no longer work reliably since Sierra it may be possible that this is not up to par any longer but as a client Mojave seems to be just fine. I use screen sharing every day and have issues with Mojave every day but I don't think screen sharing is one of those issues beyond the fact that prior to Mojave whenever I plugged in my external monitor the screen sharing window would automatically move to it and now I have to drag it over there by hand every time.

I’ve had no problems with constant screen sharing either, Mojave to Mojave. Of course, Monterey is new territory, so we’ll see.

There is one bit of magic that I don't get and would seriously consider putting a Helix client in each user space. However if you look at the picture below you can see that it does work with two different users running the same app out of the root level applications folder. No clue how this works. Let me explain the picture below.  As I said I live in screen sharing. The Helix Server window is one of the helix servers I administer. I saw that Mike was logged in as a client to the Helix server.  From the Helix server I screen shared with Mike using a different user. He didn't know anything was going on and my client was completely responsive and I am sure it didn't affect him one bit. Once I was logged into his computer on a different user account I started the helix client and visited the server. You can see the shipment navigator that is a Helix screen on his laptop from my user space. Have no idea what helix screens he had open. You can see the client info screen from the helix server and you can see that both he and I are logged into the helix server from the same machine using the same Helix client app. Magic!

¡ Magic indeed ! But I  plan to install both Helix and 4D clients in each user space. 

Now if Mike would have shut his machine down I would be out of luck. That is one potential problem that you could run into.  Assume all user accounts that you will be using for this will be non admin so I don't think they will be able to reboot the machine but I am not certain if they could shut it down.

Yes, I’ll be the only admin, but I’m sure somebody will find a way to screw it up when they exit. We have a Gosund switch on each server so I can cycle the power off and on in case they hang; the servers are set to restart after a power failure,

Hopefully this is still all valid for Monterey. Hopefully Monterey made some of it even better. I don't expect to know. FWIW I have used this with my phone and linux box as well. Works very well within the limitations of the phone size and virtual keyboard. Linux doesn't have drag and drop file transfers like screen sharing does. However, the file sharing is excellent so it can work with just a little inconvenience. Yes I actually have done Helix development from a Linux box.

That’s a riot. Have you tried to do Helix development from your phone?!

This was all very useful, Wade, thanks so much. 

The Mini arrives tomorrow (on sale at B&H for $549, tax included courtesy of their Payboo card). I’ll let you know how it works out after we buy the first two iMacs.

Gary

<screen_share.jpeg>

On Oct 27, 2021, at 4:52 PM, Gary Cosimini <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

Here’s an approach I’m developing to provide Client access to users on iMacs running Monterey.


We have a network of 8 users and are replacing our 2013-2017 iMacs for new M1 iMacs running Monterey.

Our business (combined art gallery/research foundation) is dependent on two superannuated databases, 4D (boo) and Helix (yay).

The 4D database with be replaced by a cloud-based inventory/contacts/web system over the course of the next few months, but there is no replacement possible for my complex Helix application.


So I need to maintain Helix (and 4D, for the time being) client connectivity for the M1 iMac users.


I heard an idea from a system consultant that I plan to test: use a Mini running Mojave as a screen-sharing server, with a login for each of the eight users). The only applications they would have on their logins would be Helix Client and 4D Client; the database both reside on another server.


Our LAN is very fast and neither database is, from the client perspective, very complicated.

Has anyone had any experience with multi-user logins? Any gotchas: why this won’t work?


Your feedback would be most welcome...

Gary

[Greg Morin]

We have this set up for our off site employees. It works well as far as I know (no complaints). However the one downside to it is when users are logged in that way you can't ARD to the "client" to see what they are doing on Helix (or see anything in fact). ARD to the machine just gives you the default user that is logged in - the other users are "logged in" in the background in some way I guess (not like the old system Apple use to have where you could switch users and the screen would flip around).

If you have no need to see, review or help your Helix users then this is not an issue

Greg Morin

[Wade Brezina]

Gary,

I think I added a user once and ran utilities and re-booted from the phone but don't think any actual development was done. Think I did a small amount of work one time from my 7" tablet.  Didn't want to take my laptop on a trip to DC and something came up.

I'm a little skeptical that a mini will handle 8 users. However, at that price you could easily get 2.  A garbage can would easily handle 8 but the cost is considerably more.

Looking forward to hearing how it goes!

Wade

[Wade Brezina]

On a related note the pandemic caused me to make a very limited generic user on several machines.  I gave screen sharing permission to this user and then gave the username and password to all employees that would need to collaborate. For new hires and anyone needing to work together on the same thing this worked out well.  The way this user was used was kind of the inverse of the situation you describe. No one actually logged in with this user.  They asked to share the screen with the user that was actively using it.  Of course if the active users were multiple remote this would not work unless it were carefully choreographed.  e.g. everyone log off.  The user needing the help would need to log in first and then the other users could ask for permission when they log in.  Multiple remote users can all help and look at the same screen in this manner.

Wade

[Gary Cosimini]

Hi Wade

The actual number of simultaneous users will probably be two for Helix, and 4 for 4d. So, not too concerned.

By the way, I ordered an HDMI Headless 4K Display Emulator which supports various resolutions, instead of a screen. That should do the trick.

Re your message below, that’s a very good idea for a workgroup with new employees, interns, etc. 

I have access to everyone’s screen share, so I can look over their shoulder if they have issues.

VPN and Screen Sharing have been lifesavers for us over the course of the pandemic.

Loved going in and fixing a Helix error on the database server, copying a backup to Dropbox, and relaunching the Server.  In minutes, from 90 miles away.

 I hope for the same with the our M1 migration and office renovation.

Gary

On Oct 28, 2021, at 12:51 PM, Wade Brezina <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

On a related note the pandemic caused me to make a very limited generic user on several machines.  I gave screen sharing permission to this user and then gave the username and password to all employees that would need to collaborate. For new hires and anyone needing to work together on the same thing this worked out well.  The way this user was used was kind of the inverse of the situation you describe. No one actually logged in with this user.  They asked to share the screen with the user that was actively using it.  Of course if the active users were multiple remote this would not work unless it were carefully choreographed.  e.g. everyone log off.  The user needing the help would need to log in first and then the other users could ask for permission when they log in.  Multiple remote users can all help and look at the same screen in this manner.

Wade

On Oct 28, 2021, at 12:42 PM, Wade Brezina <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

Gary,

I think I added a user once and ran utilities and re-booted from the phone but don't think any actual development was done. Think I did a small amount of work one time from my 7" tablet.  Didn't want to take my laptop on a trip to DC and something came up.

I'm a little skeptical that a mini will handle 8 users. However, at that price you could easily get 2.  A garbage can would easily handle 8 but the cost is considerably more.

Looking forward to hearing how it goes!

Wade

[Wade Brezina]

Gary, this just popped up in my reading today. Personally I have no plans to use either but since you use both you may want to be aware of this.

https://9to5mac.com/2021/10/28/dropbox-m1-support/

Wade

[Greg Morin]

We have this set up for our off site employees. It works well as far as I know (no complaints). However the one downside to it is when users are logged in that way you can't ARD to the "client" to see what they are doing on Helix (or see anything in fact). ARD to the machine just gives you the default user that is logged in - the other users are "logged in" in the background in some way I guess (not like the old system Apple use to have where you could switch users and the screen would flip around).

If you have no need to see, review or help your Helix users then this is not an issue

Greg Morin

[Gary Cosimini]

Thanks, Wade. No M1 laptop users on our network yet, though I’l probably ask Santa for a 16 inch MacBook Pro...

[Gary Cosimini]

Hi Greg

Yes, for remote users I’ll try using some other sort of screen share like Zoom for support.

But our staff has been using the two databases for so long they know them as well as or better than I do!


A general question: among the users on this list, how many seats of Helix are your customers running? Supporting 8 seat as I do, I had no idea that this remote access solution has been tried before...

[Lenny Eiger]

Are you saying that the users will be logging in with a generic user name? Like accounting, for example?

If so, I am not in favor of this. It's a very bad idea on a number of fronts...

Lenny

[Wade Brezina]

You are correct on that front and yes I did that. Panic during initial COVID stuff as we were an essential business and had to remain open with new hires. Didn't want anyone standing over anyones shoulders. I actually do need to go back and fix that. I know better. My justification, and most likely why we haven't been bit by it is that 1. access is behind a firewall. 2. The user has very limited privileges and requires the person using the computer to actually grant them permission to connect.

Good catch on my mistake and my apologies to the list for suggesting doing it. Of course it will take more work to have a unique username that people will actually remember;-) People are fun.

Wade