[Hx] APFS & Helix?

[Elton Darby]

Prior to 10.1.2021, I was happy living on OS 10.11x; after this date I had rampant difficulty connecting to many websites (certificate errors), thus I upgraded to the OS to 10.13x assuming no issues with Helix.  Helix works (Excel randomly crashes), yet I've just learned that 10.13x auto-updated my Samsung SSD to APFS -- IIRC Helix and other apps have issues with APFS, thus I would not have allowed this if I was focused, Lol.  What's the conventional wisdom as far as deploying 10.13x on a MBP w/SSD drive formatted to APFS -- should backup/restore, etc., and revert back to HFS+?  Best; Elton

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[Christian Buser]

Hello Elton Darby. On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 15:20:11 -0500, you wrote:
> Helix works (Excel randomly crashes), yet I've just learned
> that 10.13x auto-updated my Samsung SSD to APFS

Yes, it does - but only SSDs. 10.14 also converts rotating, conventional drives to APFS. And, all this only happens to the start volume.

> -- IIRC Helix and
> other apps have issues with APFS, thus I would not have allowed this
> if I was focused,

The file system on a drive should not matter to any application, since the storage of the data is a task of the operating system. If there areproblems with 10.13 or 10.14, they are probably not related to the file system, but rather to other reasons.

And if you have doubts about Helix on APFS, you could run Helix and its data completely on external drives which are not converted at all when you upgrade.

Christian
--
Christian Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: https://www.chance-for-children.org

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[Michael S. Scaramella, Esq.]

Elton,

This issue been discussed at length previously. I am enclosing a pertinent discussion thread as an RTF file. In brief, you should not reformat your storage, but should add a new small partition formatted as a HFS+ volume for storage of files created by 32-bit applications, which includes all current Helix applications.

Michael

On Oct 10, 2021, at 4:20 PM, Elton Darby <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

…IIRC Helix and other apps have issues with APFS, thus I would not have allowed this if I was focused, Lol.  What's the conventional wisdom as far as deploying 10.13x on a MBP w/SSD drive formatted to APFS -- should backup/restore, etc., and revert back to HFS+?  Best; Elton

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[Tim]

I have been having problems with OSX11 changing restricting permissions on HFS+ Files put on the new APFS formatted disk, making manual change of the permissions to admin to access. The M1 laptop comes preformatted with 2TB HD and 2TB separate Data partitions, which I have no clue about. So I have to reformat, adding a how big HFS partition and how big other 2 how?

But this sounds like a sound solution in principle.

Tim Bilash


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[Lenny Eiger]

I would disagree. i would not mess with the M1's OS.

Further, I have been using APFS for a very long time, with no issues.

Lenny

> But this sounds like a sound solution in principle.
>
> Tim Bilash

[Elton Darby]

> I have been using APFS for a very long time, with no issues.

Lenny,

Noted; so, I don't have to run Helix collections from a HFS+ volume? Elton

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[Lenny Eiger]

I'm not suggesting APFS is perfect but I have had no issues.

Lenny

[Tim]

Hi Lenny,

How did you move files (non-helix) from your old system?

Tim

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[Lenny Eiger]

In the normal way - by dragging them...

I did not get an M1, altho' TQ, who is on my team, did. He doesn't work in Helix, just everything related to it.

Lenny

[Tim]

That is the issue. APFS on the M1 messes with permissions from the intel
files, particularly by dragging them - changes creation dates and
restricts permissions.

Tim

________________________________

On 10/11/21 11:18 AM, Lenny Eiger wrote:
> In the normal way - by dragging them...
>
> I did not get an M1, altho' TQ, who is on my team, did. He doesn't work in Helix, just everything related to it.
>
> Lenny

[Elton Darby]

I do think it's a bit bizarre that I did the same OS 10.11x -> 10.13x OS upgrade on my Mini_server with a Samsung 4TB SSD and it did not automatically reformat the volume to APFS. Best; Elton

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Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 11, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Lenny Eiger <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:
>
> I would disagree. i would not mess with the M1's OS.
>
> Further, I have been using APFS for a very long time, with no issues.
>
> Lenny
>
>> But this sounds like a sound solution in principle.
>>
>> Tim Bilash
>
>

[Michael S. Scaramella, Esq.]

Tim,

Those are System and Data volumes wirhin a single APFS container which is on a single storage partition. They are not separate System and Data partitions. The System volume is read-only except when being modified by an Apple system installer. The Data volume essentially augments the System volume. These two volumes are treated by macOS as one for most purposes. Standard Apple applications are stored on the System volume with the other System files. Third-party applications are stored on the Data volume. When you view the main Applications folder in Finder you are actually viewing applications stored on both the System and Data volumes. This is accomplished using macOS firmlinks. You should never try to alter any of this structure. Having a System volume which is read-only during regular operation is an excellent security feature. 

I store administrator user Home folders in the main Users folder on the Data volume (which is the default location). I use Disk Utility to add a new encrypted APFS volume to the default storage container and store regular user Home folders on that encrypted volume. I also use Disk Utility to create a new comparatively small encrypted storage partition formatted as an HFS+ volume where all my Helix Collection files are stored. This volume is 4.5 GB of my 1 TB internal storage. Also, I format all storage as case-sensitive for full compatibility between macOS, iOS, FreeBSD Unix, and Ubuntu Linux, all of which we run. Unfortunately, Apple still formats internal Macintosh storage as case-insensitive by default, so I reformat new Macintosh storage to make it case-sensitive after allowing new computers to run for a few days.

Regarding the inadvisability of storing Helix Collection files on APFS volumes, I defer to Apple: File Manager | Apple Developer Documentation. Adding a relatively small partition formatted as HFS+ is easy and seems a reasonable precaution in light of Apple’s warnings.

Regards,

Michael

On Oct 11, 2021, at 11:32 AM, Tim Bilash <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

…The M1 laptop comes preformatted with 2TB HD and 2TB separate Data partitions, which I have no clue about. So I have to reformat, adding a how big HFS partition and how big other 2 how?

[Richard (Rick) Landsman]

Michael,

This submission of yours to Tim, and the Helix List, is excellent.

Rick