[Hx] Client running on Big Sur

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robert keigher

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Sep 9, 2021, 12:26:14 AMSep 9
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Hi Group,   I want to upgrade my laptop to the latest greatest Macbook Pro. I also need to run the Helix client to access the server. I understand that VW Ware Fusion is one method available to run two operating systems. I had some experience running VMware when I needed to bounce to OS 9, but I think that was around 20 years ago. 

Which is better VMware or Parallels? How well does it work with the Helix Client? 
 What about finding the OS High Sierra installation, will I have to jump through hoops to locate this?  

Any input or comments are appreciated. 

Thanks!
bob






Lenny Eiger

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Sep 9, 2021, 10:35:57 AMSep 9
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Bob,

I have tried both Parallels and Fusion and I can't see much difference. I think Fusion might have a bit of an edge but I am also more familiar with it, so I could be dreaming.

I would use Mojave as the OS that runs Helix. It works reliably in RADE 8.x. I have not used it as a server anywhere... so I don't personally know of its ability to do that... or not. Wouldn't be my first choice.

I would add that Apple is having its release event this coming Tuesday and I would wait to see when Monterey will be shipping - so you don't have to do two upgrades... It very well might... It's been in public beta for a while. Also could drop in October...

Enjoy,

Lenny

Michael S. Scaramella, Esq.

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Sep 9, 2021, 11:23:50 AMSep 9
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Bob,

You should read the pertinent messages in the “32-bit Programs on M-series SOCs” thread. As I wrote in one of those messages: “Running all current and recent versions of Helix applications will forever require a Macintosh computer with an Intel CPU.” Running Helix Client on a virtual machine on “the latest greatest MacBook Pro“ is impossible.

Michael

On Sep 9, 2021, at 12:25 AM, robert keigher <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

…I want to upgrade my laptop to the latest greatest Macbook Pro. I also need to run the Helix client to access the server.…

Which is better VMware or Parallels? How well does it work with the Helix Client?…

Any input or comments are appreciated. 

Thanks!
bob

<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>

SCARAMELLA & HOOFNAGLE
Computer Division
 ~  *  ~

<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>

Tim

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Sep 9, 2021, 12:07:06 PMSep 9
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Agreed.
32 bit Intel programs are incompatable. My question is the Intel and M1 machines using the same file structure?

The only solution I can see is vpn to an Intel machine - which means once again the major CPU companies are dissing databasers and led to the rampant hacking going on.
Using html to render on your computer or cell phone is a fools errand. Wordpress has convinced me of that.

Tim B.

________________________________________________________________________

Lenny Eiger

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Sep 9, 2021, 3:21:28 PMSep 9
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Bob,

Michael is right here. My research has resulted in the same conclusion. You will never be able to run a Helix application on an M1. (Until they rewrite Helix, of course. Which they are doing. Schedule unknown.)

Lenny

On Sep 9, 2021, at 8:23 AM, Michael S. Scaramella, Esq. <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

Bob,

You should read the pertinent messages in the “32-bit Programs on M-series SOCs” thread. As I wrote in one of those messages: “Running all current and recent versions of Helix applications will forever require a Macintosh computer with an Intel CPU.” Running Helix Client on a virtual machine on “the latest greatest MacBook Pro“ is impossible.

Michael

On Sep 9, 2021, at 12:25 AM, robert keigher <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

…I want to upgrade my laptop to the latest greatest Macbook Pro. I also need to run the Helix client to access the server.…

Which is better VMware or Parallels? How well does it work with the Helix Client?…

Any input or comments are appreciated. 

Thanks!
bob

Wade Brezina

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Sep 9, 2021, 4:31:29 PMSep 9
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So the hypervisor and and virtualization are just smoke and mirrors? Virtualization only for 64bit? How is that even virtualization?

Any chance someone might be able to explain to me why 32bit programs can't run in a 64bit environment? That has never made any sense to me. Seems like either lazy programming or deliberate obsolescence. However, I am not a programer so I must be missing something. Just seems to me that a 32 bit address space would be fully contained by a 64 bit address space and therefore 32 bit programs should be able to run. Protected memory just another illusion?

Then again I would think that if you break something as fundamental to a modern computer as bluetooth with a software "upgrade" that perhaps you would want to understand how the newer and supposedly better OS is messing up something so foundational. Unfortunately that is not the way development is done these days and it is another example of going backwards that we just have to live with in an illusion of moving forward.

Wade



> On Sep 9, 2021, at 2:21 PM, Lenny Eiger <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Michael is right here. My research has resulted in the same conclusion. You will never be able to run a Helix application on an M1. (Until they rewrite Helix, of course. Which they are doing. Schedule unknown.)
>
> Lenny
>


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Michael S. Scaramella, Esq.

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Sep 9, 2021, 5:04:46 PMSep 9
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Tim,

Individual macOS applications determine file structure, so the structure of a Helix Collection file is determined only by the version of the Helix application which created it. I suspect that you are really asking about file storage structure, since that is related to Macintosh hardware architecture and macOS version. Wade and I discussed this at length on this List in January. I am enclosing a copy of that discussion thread as an RTF file.

I expect that you meant to write VNC (Virtual Network Computing) rather than VPN. Virtual Network Computing with the VNC server running on an Intel-based macOS computer may be the only remaining option to access Helix applications when using a client workstation with an M-series SoC. I have not yet tried this with Helix, and am interested to learn about the experiences of others who have.

Remember that Apple is in the process of discontinuing use of all processors from all “major CPU companies.” It is the ancient Pascal code still at the core of Helix which keeps us tethered to Intel. See: The Latest Word: Omne trium perfectum. We are now awaiting the successor to Helix, which is currently code-named Andromeda.

I would not use Wordpress to build a Web-based client interface to a Helix Collection. Web technologies have advanced greatly in recent years. To see what I mean, spend some quality time visiting: Pinegrow Web Editor | Website Builder for Professionals. More particularly related to developing HTML-based data views which are “responsive” to display size, read about the CSS Grid: Search Results for “CSS Grid” | Pinegrow Web Editor. Data Views displayed in browser windows could do things that we have long wished Helix Client could do. Helix Server 9 accessed by Web browsers might provide a bridge to Andromeda, provided that we will be free to develop HTML5 data Views using professional tools like Pinegrow Web Editor. However, if we are limited to HTML analogs of the current limited capabilities of Helix Templates, then your description of using HTML as being a “fool’s errand” might fit more than any of us might wish. “Responsive” design of HTML data Views should be considered essential. Anything short of this would be keeping Helix in a state of obsolescence. The days of developing different page designs intended for different display sizes passed long ago.

Regards,

Michael

On Sep 9, 2021, at 12:06 PM, Tim <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

Agreed. 
32 bit Intel programs are incompatable. My question is the Intel and M1 machines using the same file structure?

The only solution I can see is vpn to an Intel machine - which means once again the major CPU companies are dissing databasers and led to the rampant hacking going on.
Using html to render on your computer or cell phone is a fools errand. Wordpress has convinced me of that.

Tim B.

Hx Lst Re macOS Compatibility 1-4-21.rtf

Craig S. Steele

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Sep 9, 2021, 5:29:38 PMSep 9
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Any chance someone might be able to explain to me why 32bit programs can't run in a 64bit environment?  That has never made any sense to me. Seems like either lazy programming or deliberate obsolescence.

Wade,

They run fine on Mojave, which is mainly a 64-bit environment;  it's technically feasible.  I suspect the main reason is that with the introduction of the M-series ARM CPUs, Apple is now required to maintain two large system evironments for MacOS, one for the 64-bit ARM architecture and one for the 64-bit x86 architecture, running both on Intel CPUs and Rosetta2 emulation on M-series CPUs.  Having to maintain a third, for the 32-bit x86 architecture, would be a substantial burden for a very specialized OS programmer team.  It's probably significantly harder to maintain the 32-bit address space environment without all the historical wart-on-wart 32-bit compatibility hardware support that Intel puts in their 64-bit chips.  Running the software emulation of the basic arithmetic IA32 operations in Rosetta 2 on an ARM CPU is probably pretty fast, but the address translation and hardware protection stuff for memory access and security is tough to do correctly and pretty much impossible to do fast with all the historical baggage that has grown in the processor address-translation hardware.

I think this also presents a significant security concern, both in avoiding new software bugs in a third codebase, but also in avoiding errors in the address translation and other 32-bit specific software emulation in Rosetta 2, when running on the M1.  It's a lot of work to support a small and declining part of the MacOS software ecosystem, and the product would never be as fast as any recent Intel or AMD processor-based box.  So I do understand why they would phase out the 32-bit IA-32 support as part of the transition to M-series processors.  I don't like it, but it's not irrational from the perspective of Apple's business interests.

Craig

Michael S. Scaramella, Esq.

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Sep 9, 2021, 5:48:51 PMSep 9
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Wade,

As you correctly point out, a 32-bit memory address can fit into a 64-bit address space. In fact, PPC processors handled two 32-bit addresses simultaneously in the 64-bit address space. It is Intel that uses two separate modes of operation, which has always been a significant disadvantage of inheriting Intel’s need to support ancient X86 code processing. I have wondered whether this legacy burden underlies Apple’s decision not to emulate the full Intel instruction set in Rosetta 2. It is the difference between the ARM and Intel instruction sets that prevents the new Apple hypervisor from running earlier versions of macOS. I addressed this in a message that I recently posted to this List. That message is relatively short, so I am quoting myself for your convenience:

From: "Michael S. Scaramella, Esq." <Hel...@gibhenry.com>
Subject: Re: [Hx] 32-bit Programs on M-series SOCs
Date: August 30, 2021 at 11:36:26 PM EDT
To: "Helix-L Discussion List" <Hel...@gibhenry.com>
Reply-To: "Helix-L Discussion List" <Hel...@gibhenry.com>

To All,

In a fit of wild optimism, or perhaps desperation, I decided to submit a request to Apple using the Feedback page for macOS. My submission is enclosed as a PDF file. I realize that the possibility of favorable action by Apple is remote at best, yet if some of you add your feedback to mine, maybe an enhanced version of Rosetta 2 will become a little more likely.

Michael

On Jul 29, 2021, at 7:20 PM, Michael S. Scaramella, Esq. <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

…I think that Apple should enhance Rosetta 2 included in macOS for M-series SOCs to support the Intel instructions used by the current third-party hypervisors. That would enable running older versions of macOS on virtual machines on the Intel instruction set on Rosetta 2 on M-series SOCs. Apple supported 32-bit code execution for a time much longer than I expected, so I doubt that we will see such an enhancement of Rosetta 2.…

[The original enclosure is enclosed below.]

The ability to run current third-party hypervisors on Rosetta 2 should be very high on the wish list of all Helix users. I again suggest that other Helix users might be well served by submitting their feature requests similar to to mine enclosed below by using the Feedback page for macOS. I have been told my multiple Apple employees on multiple occasions that Apple pays attention to feedback submitted this way. This effort is not likely to succeed, yet can do no harm and takes modest time and energy.

Regards,

Michael

On Sep 9, 2021, at 4:31 PM, Wade Brezina <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

So the hypervisor and and virtualization are just smoke and mirrors?  Virtualization only for 64bit?  How is that even virtualization?

Any chance someone might be able to explain to me why 32bit programs can't run in a 64bit environment?  That has never made any sense to me. Seems like either lazy programming or deliberate obsolescence. However, I am not a programer so I must be missing something.  Just seems to me that a 32 bit address space would be fully contained by a 64 bit address space and therefore 32 bit programs should be able to run.  Protected memory just another illusion?

Support Intel VT in Rosetta 2 8-30-21.pdf

Wade Brezina

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Sep 11, 2021, 4:27:25 PMSep 11
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Thank you Michael and Craig.

Still not sure that I understand the situation.  It sounds like only part of the intel instruction set is supported so that having an actual virtual intel machine on Apple Silicon is just not possible.  From my perspective having the code in place to allow for a full intel virtual machine would not be a 3rd code base for a dwindling market.  It would be a demonstration of competence and understanding of your own hardware that you could run a virtual instance of another piece of hardware you would have had to understand in order to create an OS for it in the first place.  I think that the discipline to do this would result in much tighter security and lower cost maintenance in the long run.

Then again, the model of creating a new version of the OS on a fixed time schedule, ready or not, is certainly good for the shareholders. Also has introduced more security exploits. 

The quality of the OS should not deteriorate in order to meet an artificial time table.  Unfortunately that is the world we live in today and there simply is no incentive in the consumer space to do otherwise.


Wade


<Support Intel VT in Rosetta 2 8-30-21.pdf>


Wade Brezina

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Sep 11, 2021, 4:40:31 PMSep 11
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Bob,

I thought virtualization was going to be the answer. It appears that will not be the case.

FWIW, I have been using Helix with incompatible hardware for more than 20 years now and it gets the job done very functionally. Depending on your security needs you may want to set up a VPN for access.  It does require additional hardware.  However, have had windows users entering and retrieving data from Helix collections for many years. Used to be with Timbuktu and now with VNC.  I have done RADE development using a Linux box as well as client access from it.  Works even better from another Mac.

Would like to have someone with the Big Sur M series machines screen share to an intel mac running Helix and see how well it works for them.  One trash can mac could easily have 5 or 10 clients with their own distinct login running Helix simultaneously.  That should take no more than a simple screen sharing session to effectively have a virtualized OS capable of running Helix.

Wade




On Sep 8, 2021, at 11:25 PM, robert keigher <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

Hi Group,   I want to upgrade my laptop to the latest greatest Macbook Pro. I also need to run the Helix client to access the server. I understand that VW Ware Fusion is one method available to run two operating systems. I had some experience running VMware when I needed to bounce to OS 9, but I think that was around 20 years ago. 

Which is better VMware or Parallels? How well does it work with the Helix Client? 
 What about finding the OS High Sierra installation, will I have to jump through hoops to locate this?  

robert keigher

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Sep 12, 2021, 2:02:03 AMSep 12
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That sounds interesting, Wade. How do I learn more about the additional hardware needed  and how the VPN client access is achieved? 

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