Re: [Hx] Celebrating the end of an era

[Michael S. Scaramella, Esq. MSS@ScaraHoof.com]

Wade, Lee, et al.:

Although the subject of this thread is “the end of an era,” we should not forget about the coming era for the Helix paradigm. We all want the new era to begin as soon as possible to carry forward the Helix attributes that can induce the “dopamine hit” we are all familiar with. However, we are macOS users, and as such, are intolerant of mediocrity or deficiency. Building a worthy Helix successor is a major undertaking that must take sufficient time to be done well. The future we can plan and prepare for is a Helix-like design environment backed by standard SQL servers fronted by standard Web browser clients. If this works as planned, then the future era will be much more open and standard.

As with most things, the details will be very important. Many questions remain unanswered: Will Helix abacus icons become SQL Stored Procedures so the backend SQL server will be able to function as a true compute server as Helix Server has? Will all server processes use multiple dispatch queues so Dispatch can automatically manage compute resources available across many parallel computational cores? Will the Web client interface be “responsive” to window or display width with break points set in the new design environment or an external HTTP code editor? The decisions made today will determine the answers to these an many other questions. To the extent we can, we should educate ourselves about the newly salient technologies so we can provide appropriate and helpful input to BGD. Informed input from the Helix Community might help produce an outcome that would make us appear quite wise for having stayed with Helix through the dark days until the end of the current era, even through we need to pay today’s bills today.

Regards,

Michael

On Nov 8, 2023, at 8:37 PM, Quipu Pty Ltd l...@quipu.com.au <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

… Your long experience with Helix is an asset.…

In the end you can blame Helix for providing too much of a dopamine hit.

—

Lee Rydstrand
l...@quipu.com.au

On 9 Nov 2023, at 11:03, Wade Brezina wa...@thewintrack.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

All meaningless however because there is no world outside of our little Helix world where a single person can create multiple systems that grew multiple businesses due to the ability to articulate and focus the business functions. In reality, in today's world, my skill set is simply unmarketable. That is the reality I still am not able to fully accept yet it is what it is.

<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>

SCARAMELLA & HOOFNAGLE

Computer Division

 ~  *  ~

Voice: 856-424-2100

Web: http://www.ScaraHoof.com

<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>-=-<+>

[Quipu Pty Ltd lee@quipu.com.au]

I’d just be happy if the primacy of development in the visual environment was re-established. 

It works ok now for simple collections but the mental workload scales exponentially with icon count. 

Someone needs to re-imagine the tools available to regain control. 

Lee

Sent from my iPhone

On 10 Nov 2023, at 08:52, Michael S. Scaramella, Esq. M...@ScaraHoof.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

Wade, Lee, et al.:

[Wade Brezina wade@thewintrack.com]

Michael

I sincerely hope that when Helix emerges the wisdom of those sticking with it becomes obvious and that they flourish! Unfortunately, I have to pay today's bills and that eliminates my option to stay with it.

Wade

On 10 Nov 2023, at 08:52, Michael S. Scaramella, Esq. M...@ScaraHoof.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote: Informed input from the Helix Community might help produce an outcome that would make us appear quite wise for having stayed with Helix through the dark days until the end of the current era, even through we need to pay today’s bills today.

Regards,

Michael

[Wade Brezina wade@thewintrack.com]

Lee

I don't think I am being unfair in what I am saying about non-Helix people or the era of Helix. However, I only know what I know. I know I was not one of the smart ones that moved on when I should have. I know that I have worked with the lead developer of a Filemaker shop that took over one of my Helix collections. After looking at the 160+ relations and what they actually did she made the very specific point that she was amazed at the fact that one person created that. Her team was actually only going to re-create some of it because it would have been prohibitive to replace all the functions with Filemaker. Of course her team had many other advantages to offer and they also did a good job with integrating with other packaged software to cover some of the functions done in Helix outside of Filemaker. 

That is just one example from my tiny part in the Helix world -- I can give several others. How about Dr. Stavis? With just some help from some of us on the list, while being a full time Dr, he created something so powerful that when he decided to do it in something more modern it required a substantial team and a very large investment!

Certainly my wisdom can be questioned for not realizing that one person with the ability to create something so powerful was not going to be the best career choice. However, to this day, I do not believe there is anything else like Helix where one person can accomplish so much. That is the era that is gone and perhaps for the best. Teams of people working together are going to be able to accomplish more.

Wade

On 11/8/23 19:37, Quipu Pty Ltd l...@quipu.com.au wrote:

Wade I’m sorry to say this is an unrealistic view of non-Helix people.

Your facility with Helix over thirty years, working on specific applications for customers for that length of time can be found in other people using Filemaker for example. I know some,  who indeed left Helix to do so.

Your long experience with Helix is an asset in that you can bring that generic experience in manipulating data to a role such as Business Analysis.

BUT you will need to make the effort to learn the terminology and tools that go with it.

The limitation of Helix is that its idiosyncratic in its implementation of standard database principles and by not using a variety of other conventional tools you have not been exposed to mainstream terminology and concepts eg keys (primary, secondary, foreign, compound,, candidate) or cardinality etc.

Don't worry, you’re not alone. I’ve been there, Lenny’s been there and many before us too. The smart ones, like Philip Bath and Tim Hingely moved on. They acquired the new skills and toolsets that were in demand, not just what they liked to use.

In the end you can blame Helix for providing too much of a dopamine hit.

—

Lee Rydstrand
l...@quipu.com.au

On 9 Nov 2023, at 11:03, Wade Brezina wa...@thewintrack.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

All meaningless however because there is no world outside of our little Helix world where a single person can create multiple systems that grew multiple businesses due to the ability to articulate and focus the business functions. In reality, in today's world, my skill set is simply unmarketable. That is the reality I still am not able to fully accept yet it is what it is.

-- 
Win-Track
Providing business productivity solutions since 1990
3324 41st Ave S
Minneapolis, MN 55406
651-246-7457

[Michael S. Scaramella, Esq. MSS@ScaraHoof.com]

Lee,

You described a critical issue which I have written about and spoken about many times over many years. It was always very obvious that Helix development using AppleScript was never going to be anything more than very occasionally used for fringe purposes. Over the years that AppleScript took primacy in the development of Helix the rest of the world finally discovered and embraced no-code software development. Nothing was positioned better than Helix to be advantaged by this shift, but no benefit was realized. It is essential that the potential advantage which remains be realized by the BGD products.

The Helix GUI still mimics very ancient versions of Finder, including by aligning icons based upon name length, which is one of the reason we remain dependent upon Classic Helix. Currently, the only way to organize the structure of a complex Collection is by carefully positioning icons in icon view. Trying to align icons to the grid in Helix RADE for macOS 10 and later destroys the organization. The new development GUI should mimic the current Finder, which has a mature and refined GUI.

Regards,

Michael

On Nov 9, 2023, at 5:29 PM, Quipu Pty Ltd l...@quipu.com.au <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

I’d just be happy if the primacy of development in the visual environment was re-established. 

It works ok now for simple collections but the mental workload scales exponentially with icon count. 

Someone needs to re-imagine the tools available to regain control. 

Lee

[Quipu Pty Ltd lee@quipu.com.au]

Michael

The visual field needs much more than to reimplement ‘modern’ Finder, particularly since the Finder is not really addressing all of the problems that Helix must solve.

 

When organising icons in say, a relation its very tempting, even desirable to group those icons which are commonly related - say a View and its template, query, indexes, abaci, and. posts but because any of those icons can also be part of other groupings as well any degree of complexity breaks such rigid organisation down. In the Finder we can use aliases to substitute for the original icon. In Helix probably a better way would be some mechanism to tag icons and then pull together those icons with common tags when needed.

In a very large and complex collection the visual overload of navigating the sea of icons makes meaningful and productive progress very demanding. But you know it’s very rare that one is working on all of those icons in a single session. More likely it’s a small subset. What is needed is a mechanism for temporarily ‘hoisting’ (I’m stealing the term from Davie Winer’s MORE! outlining program) a selection of such icons onto a blank canvas, leaving the rest behind. One could work on whatever issue needed resolving and then dehoisting (foisting?) them back where they came from. BTW there’s no reason why such a process can’t collect all related icons from each and and every relation at once - and who hasn’t wished they could do that? The only challenge would be displaying them in such a way that you can tell which relation they belong to and perhaps in a meaningfully hierarchical fashion reflecting the containment hierarchy -think of nested abaci, but also strings of posts or indexes. Maybe present them like one of Tony Buzan’s mindmaps

I recently looked at an app called Obsidian which utilised a 3-D rotatable graph that purported to show the connections between each and every term in a document. You could rotate the graph, select a node and then every term not related would fade into the background. It made it visually easy to discern connections and zero in on the target. Would that be useful way to present teh Relations - a 3D entity-Relationship diagram

These are only simple, first level concepts but I want to make the case that the future for the Donut is rooted in addressing the shortcomings of visual programming in Helix by re-imaging and solving the problems that complex systems present, that textual coding addresses quite well - for those who are linguistically adept.

Lee Rydstrand
l...@quipu.com.au

On 10 Nov 2023, at 11:08, Michael S. Scaramella, Esq. M...@ScaraHoof.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

The Helix GUI still mimics very ancient versions of Finder, including by aligning icons based upon name length, which is one of the reason we remain dependent upon Classic Helix. Currently, the only way to organize the structure of a complex Collection is by carefully positioning icons in icon view. Trying to align icons to the grid in Helix RADE for macOS 10 and later destroys the organization. The new development GUI should mimic the current Finder, which has a mature and refined GUI.

[Dana Barnard d.barnard@barson.group]

Hi Folks,

Although Donut Maker is still quite a ways off, we are just finishing off the new UX/UI preliminary design that will guide the programming team.  There are many new aspects and features that attempt to address the very issues (navigating Helix, particularly larger collections) that you folks have been discussing in this thread.  While we all seem to have different styles and preferences in working with Helix, it's clear that we all imagine some ways to make Donut Maker better to work with.   I really hope we have taken the best of the original Helix brilliance and significantly improved upon it.   That remains to be seen.   The UX/UI design project has been both fun, a huge amount of work, and a bit of a mind bender which has taken about 9 months of really dedicated work by our team.    I didn't appreciate just how big Helix is in some ways, and how many functions and features it has that I never really paid much attention to.

Now if we can just get the Hybrid Server finished (better to say workable as software never seems to be finished) we can turn most of our programming resources to building Maker.  It will be fun to see what the dev team does when there is no legacy code to deal with.

Dana

Quipu Pty Ltd l...@quipu.com.au

November 11, 2023 at 7:23 AM

Michael

The visual field needs much more than to reimplement ‘modern’ Finder, particularly since the Finder is not really addressing all of the problems that Helix must solve.

 

When organising icons in say, a relation its very tempting, even desirable to group those icons which are commonly related - say a View and its template, query, indexes, abaci, and. posts but because any of those icons can also be part of other groupings as well any degree of complexity breaks such rigid organisation down. In the Finder we can use aliases to substitute for the original icon. In Helix probably a better way would be some mechanism to tag icons and then pull together those icons with common tags when needed.

In a very large and complex collection the visual overload of navigating the sea of icons makes meaningful and productive progress very demanding. But you know it’s very rare that one is working on all of those icons in a single session. More likely it’s a small subset. What is needed is a mechanism for temporarily ‘hoisting’ (I’m stealing the term from Davie Winer’s MORE! outlining program) a selection of such icons onto a blank canvas, leaving the rest behind. One could work on whatever issue needed resolving and then dehoisting (foisting?) them back where they came from. BTW there’s no reason why such a process can’t collect all related icons from each and and every relation at once - and who hasn’t wished they could do that? The only challenge would be displaying them in such a way that you can tell which relation they belong to and perhaps in a meaningfully hierarchical fashion reflecting the containment hierarchy -think of nested abaci, but also strings of posts or indexes. Maybe present them like one of Tony Buzan’s mindmaps

I recently looked at an app called Obsidian which utilised a 3-D rotatable graph that purported to show the connections between each and every term in a document. You could rotate the graph, select a node and then every term not related would fade into the background. It made it visually easy to discern connections and zero in on the target. Would that be useful way to present teh Relations - a 3D entity-Relationship diagram

These are only simple, first level concepts but I want to make the case that the future for the Donut is rooted in addressing the shortcomings of visual programming in Helix by re-imaging and solving the problems that complex systems present, that textual coding addresses quite well - for those who are linguistically adept.

Lee Rydstrand
l...@quipu.com.au

--






Dana E. Barnard
CEO
Barson Corporation
www.barson.group
d.ba...@barson.group
505-603-5306

[Harvey Klein hklein@gslabs.com]

The main question I have is when the new Big Giant Donut server comes out will it be able to run my current Helix Collections without any modifications?

Harvey Klein, M.S.

Laboratory Director

Garden State Laboratories, Inc.

410 Hillside Avenue

Hillside, NJ 07205 

Tel: 800-273-8901, 908-688-8900 x8

Fax: 908-688-8966

Web Site: http://www.gslabs.com

E-mail: hkl...@gslabs.com

On Nov 13, 2023, at 10:05 AM, Dana Barnard d.ba...@barson.group <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

 Hi Folks,

[Lenny Eiger eiger@databright.com]

Harvey,

When the Hybrid Server ships it will support everything Helix currently supports.

In conversations with BGD, they are attempting to keep Helix as close to its roots as possible.

I don't really care if they keep every feature, just the way it was. What I care about is that Helix is able to move forward. If we have to lose Auto-Open posts (I know Michael disagrees with me on this, just an example) so that they can make a viable Helix that the younger crowd will love then so be it. I could also lose the ability to embed 128 subforms. One would suffice. 

The question is whether or not there will be workarounds, or another way to accomplish similar things, and I believe there will be. If we have to make a few changes to get everything off and running, I'm fine with that. 

Consider the capabilities of a web browser. When they release this I don't imagine it will work exactly like a Helix Client. Certainly not from day one.

The attitude of "I want it just the way it was" is not going to get us anywhere. We all have to do our part if we want it to live on.

Lenny

<image.png><image.png>

[Harvey Klein hklein@gslabs.com]

Lenny

 

Thanks for your response.  As usual it is informative.

 

While I enjoy reading some of the comments on this list, from a business perspective it is critical that the new Helix web access (Client) works in entering data and sending emails as the current Helix Client does.  If it does not, then we need to know asap so we can work in any updates or look to other functions.

 

As we all know, we were hoping to already be using the new programs.  As we move into a new year we have already had to update the current Helix collection for 2024.

 

If the new programs will not be able to function like our current programs we need to know now. 

 

We have been using  Helix (and Double Helix) since 1984.  It is essential to know what is needed to move forward smoothly.

 

Harvey Klein, M.S.

Laboratory Director

Garden State Laboratories, Inc.

410 Hillside Avenue

Hillside, NJ 07205

Tel: 800-273-8901, 908-688-8900

Fax: 908-688-8966

[D. Wheeler drwgm1945@gmail.com]

I have been a lay user since the mid 80’s. All I want is my old Helix to run in 64 bit. I see far too much change for change sake. Word and Excel are excellent examples of that flaw. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 13, 2023, at 5:09 PM, Harvey Klein hkl...@gslabs.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:



[John Allison Jones jahjones@icloud.com]

Absolutely agree- been a user since Double Helix days….

Sent from my iPhone

On 13 Nov 2023, at 22:54, D. Wheeler drwg...@gmail.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

I have been a lay user since the mid 80’s. All I want is my old Helix to run in 64 bit. I see far too much change for change sake. Word and Excel are excellent examples of that flaw. 

[William R Bayne ercoguru@txercoupemuseum.org]

Ditto here.

For me Helix was a  tool to help me manage certain aspects of my individual life.  I have used it exclusively in design mode, and could care less about “Client”, “server”, etc., all the bells and whistles that have come to make it extremely difficult to update.

Just as aircraft manufacturers HAVE to continue to manufacture “simple” airplanes in order to train the people who eventually buy or operate the COMPLEX ones, I think the individual user version has always been on the “back burner” because that’s NOT “where the money is”.  But the cold, hard reality is that while the “deep pockets” of those people  who need and use  “Client”, “server”, etc. has ALWAYS been dropping. 

The sad but absolutely true fact is that there is no “future of Helix” without a “business plan” that replaces aging single purchaser/users like me.  This its the sole source of self-motivated and self taught users who need to and can increase the capability and utility of the application over time in a manner demonstrably useful.  

At the same time, there is a “life cycle" to some endeavors, such as the number and profitability of drive in theaters and porno theaters, the sector of private aviation comprised of self-funded individuals, "quick printing” (think Postal Instant Press, or “PIP”), the “desktop” computer, and many, many more.  Those seduced by the illusion of an “opportunity” no longer viable will inevitably be blindsided by a reality absolutely independent of mercy or nostalgia.  Sad, perhaps; but true.

Best!

WRB

— 

[Lenny Eiger eiger@databright.com]

You know what, everyone... keep your doom and gloom to yourselves. For that matter, you can also keep your selfishness, and your desire to have Helix stay the way it is - forever. The one thing that doesn't change on this planet is that everything changes. You not remembering a time before posting, a time before sequences, a time before the extremely difficult conversion to OS X. Change is mostly good. Helix is better than it was in 1984. And it will definitely be better in the next version and the next one after that.

Most of you aren't aware of how many years the programmers have tried to make everything work for you, all you see is that they have a responsibility to you to make it like you want it. The Helix staff wasn't paid for a very long time. I think they deserve to make a living from their efforts. They deserve to have a future, working on a product that is viable now, vs one that was viable in 1984..

Helix may not be exactly as it was when RADE finally ships, but it will work, and it will still be Helix-like. I know, I've seen the models. They do read this form and are listening to your requests. Instead of doom and gloom, make your case something you'd like to see.

Sure there will be bumps along the way. Some features that are almost never used might be let go. However, wouldn't it be nice if there was vibrant developer group again, with people from all over the world excited about Helix, and a new way for lots of people to make a living in this field.

If you don't want to use Helix anymore, that's ok, we all wish you well in your new endeavors. The rest of us are still here. There is no "end of an era", it's not a particularly helpful thought form.

Lenny
ei...@databright.com



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

You received this message because you are subscribed to the mailing list <Hel...@gibhenry.com>.
To unsubscribe, send an email <Helix...@gibhenry.com>; to switch to DIGEST mode, send an email to <Helix-L...@gibhenry.com>; to contact a human being, send an email to <Helix-L...@gibhenry.com>.
Google archive since 20 August 2006: http://groups.google.com/group/helix-l.
Basic archive since March 2017: https://gibhenry.com:9100/Lists/Helix-L/List.html

[James Mowery jmowery@me.com]

It is absolutely necessary that it works on the new Macs and a plus plus if it works on windows. Such will open up Helix to a 10,000 fold new group of users and developers. And that new Helix will then do nothing but explode in capability. 

This new transformation will be a 100 times greater than OS 9 to OS X. 

Such a change in the market will find requests for changes—whether new or reincorporating old—actually possible. 

BGD is on the right track. 

Embrace the future!

This is going to be both exciting and fun!

Jim Mowery

Soldier & Educator

On Nov 14, 2023, at 15:06, Lenny Eiger ei...@databright.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

You know what, everyone... keep your doom and gloom to yourselves. For that matter, you can also keep your selfishness, and your desire to have Helix stay the way it is - forever. The one thing that doesn't change on this planet is that everything changes. You not remembering a time before posting, a time before sequences, a time before the extremely difficult conversion to OS X. Change is mostly good. Helix is better than it was in 1984. And it will definitely be better in the next version and the next one after that.

[Anton Sommer as@sommer-equity.de]

I support everything Lenny is stating. I am eager to learn. though I am 76.

Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 14.11.2023 um 22:35 schrieb James Mowery jmo...@me.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com>:

It is absolutely necessary that it works on the new Macs and a plus plus if it works on windows. Such will open up Helix to a 10,000 fold new group of users and developers. And that new Helix will then do nothing but explode in capability. 

[Wade Brezina wade@thewintrack.com]

The perfect capstone to my Rodney Dangerfield Helix life. 

I hope BGD does great things and is successful beyond my imagination!

Change is a constant yet some things never really change.

I can be dismissed as immaterial. So be it. For me it is the end of an era. It does not matter if I want to use Helix or not! The era of me being able to earn a living based on my ability to create or maintain systems in Helix is over.

Wade

[Lenny Eiger eiger@databright.com]

Wade,

No one is trying to dismiss you. 

However, when you say you are leaving, are you saying goodbye to everyone? Or are you trying to get everyone else to join you in leaving?

I haven't come to the end of my ability to make a living, not by a long shot, I'm busier than ever. For whatever that's worth....

Lenny

[D. Wheeler drwgm1945@gmail.com]

Lenny, my comment was not "doom and gloom”--it was the hope that unproductive change is not introduced to the update. I have hung in with Helix from the beginning. Currently, I had to purchase an older Mac and run Mojave on it to keep Helix working. I love the product but unlike you guys I have to dig deep for "how-to’s” to create new collections. I am one who believes that Helix could thrive among lay users with access to the proper tools. I have a bunch of old tools, including those that came with the original release, but now I must search/ask how to do even the most basic things. Just say

ing...

On Nov 14, 2023, at 4:04 PM, Lenny Eiger ei...@databright.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

You know what, everyone... keep your doom and gloom to yourselves. For that matter, you can also keep your selfishness, and your desire to have Helix stay the way it is - forever. The one thing that doesn't change on this planet is that everything changes. You not remembering a time before posting, a time before sequences, a time before the extremely difficult conversion to OS X. Change is mostly good. Helix is better than it was in 1984. And it will definitely be better in the next version and the next one after that.

Most of you aren't aware of how many years the programmers have tried to make everything work for you, all you see is that they have a responsibility to you to make it like you want it. The Helix staff wasn't paid for a very long time. I think they deserve to make a living from their efforts. They deserve to have a future, working on a product that is viable now, vs one that was viable in 1984..

Helix may not be exactly as it was when RADE finally ships, but it will work, and it will still be Helix-like. I know, I've seen the models. They do read this form and are listening to your requests. Instead of doom and gloom, make your case something you'd like to see.

Sure there will be bumps along the way. Some features that are almost never used might be let go. However, wouldn't it be nice if there was vibrant developer group again, with people from all over the world excited about Helix, and a new way for lots of people to make a living in this field.

If you don't want to use Helix anymore, that's ok, we all wish you well in your new endeavors. The rest of us are still here. There is no "end of an era", it's not a particularly helpful thought form.

[Lenny Eiger eiger@databright.com]

D,

I made a point of deleting all the text of the email I replied to, so that no one felt singled out for my comments.

The Big Giant Donut gang is carefully weighing changes going forward. They are trying to make something that will be as engaging to the next generation as the original Helix was to us. Consider the challenge of this. People our age can barely communicate with young people scrolling endlessly thru their feeds. How does one begin, much less engage them? 

There are also the realities of programming everything anew in Swift - some things will be easy and then again, some things will not. Would you hold off on something that would put the schedule back a year, or release an interim version? I imagine there are plenty of tough choices coming up for the team. 

You may have noticed that Dana Barnard, the current owner, replied to message in this thread. They are listening. I've known Dana for over a dozen years, and can tell you that he loves using Helix - and is constantly writing up a simple systems to manage any number of things, just like you do. It's part of what he appreciates about Helix and I don't think this is going away.

He's also putting SQL at the back end, among other things, and we should be able to offer a lot more power, for those that need it, like many of my clients.

As to having to dig deep for solutions I have always said that a consultation with a professional can really help. I have taught a lot folks a handful of things here and there that make things easier for them. There's plenty of choices on this list.... I have lots of places where I have to buy an hour of someone's time to learn something... it's been efficient.

Lenny

[D. Wheeler drwgm1945@gmail.com]

Lenny, I sincerely appreciate the feedback. My hope is that Helix will meet my needs as I forge ahead past 78. Best wishes. Donnie

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 14, 2023, at 8:39 PM, Lenny Eiger ei...@databright.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

D,

[William R Bayne ercoguru@txercoupemuseum.org]

Lenny said:

"The Big Giant Donut gang is carefully weighing changes going forward. They are trying to make something that will be as engaging to the next generation as the original Helix was to us. Consider the challenge of this. People our age can barely communicate with young people scrolling endlessly thru their feeds. How does one begin, much less engage them?”

"You may have noticed that Dana Barnard, the current owner, replied to message in this thread. They are listening. I've known Dana for over a dozen years, and can tell you that he loves using Helix - and is constantly writing up a simple systems to manage any number of things, just like you do. It's part of what he appreciates about Helix and I don't think this is going away.”

The “One size fits all” mentality that prioritized Server, Client, etc. has created ever-increasing complexity satisfying the “features” desired by those individuals able and willing to underwrite the costs of initially financing a “OSX Helix.

Like D. Wheeler, I no longer have the need or the time to figure how to create new collections with the “new Helix”.  

For now my “workaround" is to use an older Mac to do what I need with Helix 3.5 (68000?) and then “upgrade” that product to run under OSX 32-bit.  I have found that “solution” to yield a less than polished result.

I think that Helix 3.5 was more complicated than it needed to be for 75%+ of the single-users that purchased it.  It seems to me that the single-user individual product could be infinitely simplified to meet the “needs” of 75% of the people who would consider it to sort out the inventory, invoicing, tax tracking and calculations that are typically purchased today from third parties.  

Such a “entry level” application could (and should?) be substantially identical in “look and feel” to "68000 Helix”.  A relatively unchanging “core Engine” should be relatively easy to construct and maintain once “solid” with only basic Query capability.  

It could be offered on a subscription basis at a reasonable price, which would seem to solve the problem of long term support for the development team as the new product evolves.  All sorts of “add-on" capabilities and customizations would be marketable as options, including advanced training, to add (at additional cost).  

I’m not aware of anyone else seriously speculating along these lines and I found QSA unwilling to do so from the outset.

Best!

WRB

—   

[Wade Brezina wade@thewintrack.com]

On 11/14/23 17:18, Lenny Eiger ei...@databright.com wrote:

Wade,

No one is trying to dismiss you.

Perhaps literally true. I can not determine intent -- only actions.  You dismiss my accomplishments and go on to say that my experience must be invalid because you have so much work. (I gave my livelihood to you for reasons that had absolutely nothing to do with Helix FWIW.)

I gave the list the code to add a geoquery, combined with several and/or parameters, to any customer database utilizing readily available data. The only comment anyone made about it was the effort you put forth to criticize it. I doubt that in a blind test of bringing up the report 10 times in a production environment it would be better than chance that one could determine the difference between the two queries. However, my demonstration of a geoqery and multiple and/or logic was simply dismissed.

However, when you say you are leaving, are you saying goodbye to everyone? Or are you trying to get everyone else to join you in leaving?

LOL! I can't even get anyone to see value in my work or experience! I've been trying to share my experience so that people who are able to stay may benefit from it. I have explicitly stated on many occasions that I would be happy to stay if I could find work. I don't like the direction Apple is heading with a signed OS. I have raised concerns about that. I have not tried to get anyone to join me in leaving. That makes no sense. Once again it is just a matter of dismissing me as having nothing worth considering.

I haven't come to the end of my ability to make a living, not by a long shot, I'm busier than ever. For whatever that's worth....

Lenny

Congratulations! You have done a good job and I hope that you continue to prosper! I know that I have, and will continue to, honorably assist you in maintaining the code I walked away from. 

Wade

 

[Lenny Eiger eiger@databright.com]

Wade,

There's a lot of nice stuff in the collection. I am mostly focused on getting the collection ready for 803, haven't really gotten into it...

Everyone liked your GPS thing....

Lenny

[caretechusa@gmail.com caretechnew@gmail.com]

I have used Helix since 1985 ish and in client server setup with multiple servers and users.  I have always believed in owning my data, and helix allowed us to produce life saving software and industry leading services.  I find myself extremely frustrated at not being able to do it myself, for myself and this era of rental software for even simple things like accounting software brings much frustration and is not at all to my liking.  

Unfortunately, with consolidation and growth the rental model is replacing normal product sales.  Even a simple checkbook manager budgeting function is now rental… really. 

So if you want to create your own database or own your software solution Helix still has a life and I feel that while an Iphone is practical a Macbook is all you need to get your life and business under control. 

Scaling that up for remote users will require some skill but it can be done all depending 

A business solution can be created much easier with Helix without a doubt .

Ray

On Nov 14, 2023, at 11:19 AM, William R Bayne erco...@txercoupemuseum.org <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

Ditto here.

For me Helix was a  tool to help me manage certain aspects of my individual life.  I have used it exclusively in design mode, and could care less about “Client”, “server”, etc., all the bells and whistles that have come to make it extremely difficult to update.

Just as aircraft manufacturers HAVE to continue to manufacture “simple” airplanes in order to train the people who eventually buy or operate the COMPLEX ones, I think the individual user version has always been on the “back burner” because that’s NOT “where the money is”.  But the cold, hard reality is that while the “deep pockets” of those people  who need and use  “Client”, “server”, etc. has ALWAYS been dropping. 

The sad but absolutely true fact is that there is no “future of Helix” without a “business plan” that replaces aging single purchaser/users like me.  This its the sole source of self-motivated and self taught users who need to and can increase the capability and utility of the application over time in a manner demonstrably useful.  

At the same time, there is a “life cycle" to some endeavors, such as the number and profitability of drive in theaters and porno theaters, the sector of private aviation comprised of self-funded individuals, "quick printing” (think Postal Instant Press, or “PIP”), the “desktop” computer, and many, many more.  Those seduced by the illusion of an “opportunity” no longer viable will inevitably be blindsided by a reality absolutely independent of mercy or nostalgia.  Sad, perhaps; but true.

Best!

WRB

— 

On Nov 14, 2023, at 9:28 AM, John Allison Jones jahj...@icloud.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

Absolutely agree- been a user since Double Helix days….

Sent from my iPhone

On 13 Nov 2023, at 22:54, D. Wheeler drwg...@gmail.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

I have been a lay user since the mid 80’s. All I want is my old Helix to run in 64 bit. I see far too much change for change sake. Word and Excel are excellent examples of that flaw. 

Sent from my iPhone

[John Allison Jones jahjones@icloud.com]

[Dana Barnard d.barnard@barson.group]

Hi Harvey,

I am currently writing a blog post to update everyone on progress.   You asked a simple question but, maybe a little too simple.  The new Donut products come out in stages and each release will undoubtedly require some mods.  So my answer is: over time you will have to modify your collection somewhat.   How much is not clear but, we are spending a lot of time and money creating a palatable migration path for our customers.        

The product we are working on right now is the Hybrid Server.   The Hybrid Server will serve existing Helix collections on the most modern Macs and operating system.    We are using the 64bit server at BGD internally right now with no modifications to the collection.    If you were to continue to visit your collection with the existing Classic Client, you will have perhaps zero changes to make to your existing collection.  However, the Donut Hybrid Server also introduces two brand new technologies: a browser based client (BBC) to visit your Helix collection and the Donut Server which, in this iteration will coordinate traffic between the browser based client and the 64 bit Helix Server.   The technology difference between the 32 bit, Classic Helix Client and a new browser based client is extreme.   If you want to begin using the BBC to access collections, you can expect that experience to be different between the two, and will potentially require some modifications to forms, etc.

The next big release will be Donut Maker and in that product, we are taking an even bigger step away from the original helix.   Again, we are planning on creating a migration pathway to move a Helix collection to a Donut  app but, I expect even more modifications to be needed when we finally get there.   Most functions are being recreated but, some are being left behind.  

As CEO of Himed, I am also a customer that uses Helix in daily operations, and it is our opinion that modifying Helix (even to a great extent) is still far less money and heartache than rewriting the whole thing on a new platform.   The advantage of this staged upgrade is that it spreads the task out and gives us time to digest the new Client technology before taking on moving to Donut Maker.

Short answer: some changes will be necessary.

Dana

Harvey Klein hkl...@gslabs.com

November 13, 2023 at 11:25 AM

The main question I have is when the new Big Giant Donut server comes out will it be able to run my current Helix Collections without any modifications?

Harvey Klein, M.S.

Laboratory Director

Garden State Laboratories, Inc.

410 Hillside Avenue

Hillside, NJ 07205 

Tel: 800-273-8901, 908-688-8900 x8

Fax: 908-688-8966

Web Site: http://www.gslabs.com

E-mail: hkl...@gslabs.com