[Hx] UTM | Virtual machines for Mac

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Michael S. Scaramella, Esq. MSS@ScaraHoof.com

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Jul 12, 2022, 10:37:46 AMJul 12
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To All,

The open-source UTM virtualization software described in the sections quoted below from the UTM Web site might make it possible to run Classic versions of Helix applications on macOS Classic virtualized on Apple systems with M-series SoCs. For those of us still dependent upon Classic Helix, it seems that this could provide a way to maintain Helix-based applications while we wait for the release of usable 64-bit Helix applications if our old PowerPC-based machines fail before then. Unfortunately, it appears that UTM only supports virtualized newer versions of macOS that do not support 32-bit applications. Here is a link to a pertinent discussion: Cannot boot up High Sierra, stuck in UEFI/BIOS · Discussion #3956 · utmapp/UTM · GitHub. The discussion was left dangling, strongly suggesting confirmation that running virtualized High Sierra or Mojave is not possible. This is expected due to limitations of the macOS Virtualization Framework and Rosetta 2.

I do not have a machine with an M-series SoC to test UTM. If someone installs UTM and tries running Classic Helix applications, please report the results on this List. From what I can interpret about the UTM Architecture, it seems that UTM can be run along with VMware Fusion or Parallels.

Regards,

Michael

Securely run operating systems on your Mac

Windows. Linux. [Classic macOS.] Meet Apple Silicon.

UTM employs Apple's Hypervisor virtualization framework to run ARM64 operating systems on Apple Silicon at near native speeds. On Intel Macs, x86/x64 operating system can be virtualized. In addition, lower performance emulation is available to run x86/x64 on Apple Silicon as well as ARM64 on Intel. For developers and enthusiasts, there are dozens of other emulated processors as well including: ARM32, MIPS, PPC, and RISC-V. Your Mac can now truly run anything. (Emphasis added.)


Emulate classic operating systems.

Not only can you run the latest and greatest operating systems, you can also emulate older operating systems whether it's on PowerPC, SPARC, or x86_64. Check out the gallery for some examples of what you can run. (Emphasis added.)



Virtualize macOS as well.

Run multiple instances of macOS on your Apple Silicon Mac with UTM. This can be useful for developers as well as security conscious users. Note that macOS VM support is limited to ARM based Macs running macOS Monterey or higher. (Emphasis added.)


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Michael S. Scaramella, Esq. MSS@ScaraHoof.com

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Jul 12, 2022, 10:38:13 AMJul 12
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Louis louis@simonac.com

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Jul 12, 2022, 11:03:46 AMJul 12
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Classic as in Mac OS 9?

Le 12 juill. 2022 à 10:38, Michael S. Scaramella, Esq. M...@ScaraHoof.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> a écrit :



Hel...@gibhenry.com

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Jul 12, 2022, 12:32:48 PMJul 12
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My M1 does not run Intel Mac Software in emulation. It runs Win11 ones (Dragon for instance) with Parallels. Very straight forward integration for files (drag and drop to MAC desktop, double clic opens Parallel opens program in Win).

This is interesting. I am trying to discover if M2 is different?

Tim B.

____________________________

Michael S. Scaramella, Esq. MSS@ScaraHoof.com

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Jul 12, 2022, 1:59:45 PMJul 12
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Louis,

Yes—I was referring to Mac OS 9. In particular, Mac OS 9.2.x, which is required by Classic Helix applications and which was not supported by older virtualization software. See the Mac OS 9.2.1 system in the “gallery” page linked to in the part of my original message quoted below.

Please consider testing this if you can. I would do so, but do not yet have a computer with an M-series SoC.

Regards,

Michael

On Jul 12, 2022, at 11:02 AM, Louis lo...@simonac.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

Classic as in Mac OS 9?

Le 12 juill. 2022 à 10:38, Michael S. Scaramella, Esq. M...@ScaraHoof.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> a écrit :

Emulate classic operating systems.

Not only can you run the latest and greatest operating systems, you can also emulate older operating systems whether it's on PowerPC, SPARC, or x86_64. Check out the gallery for some examples of what you can run. (Emphasis added.)

Michael S. Scaramella, Esq. MSS@ScaraHoof.com

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Jul 12, 2022, 2:14:31 PMJul 12
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Tim,

Every M1-based Macintosh computer runs Intel Mac software in emulation. That is the purpose of Rosetta 2. Parallels creates and runs virtual machines, which is not a form of emulation. With regard to this topic, there is no difference between the various M-series SoCs.

The main question I raised is whether UTM can emulate a PowerPC CPU on an M-series SoC capable of running a Mac OS 9.2.x system capable of running Classic Helix applications well enough that it avoids continuing dependence upon now quite old PowerPC-based Macintosh computers. Dependence upon such old hardware is a precarious position.

Regards,

Michael

On Jul 12, 2022, at 12:31 PM, t...@obsoft.net <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

My M1 does not run Intel Mac Software in emulation. It runs Win11 ones (Dragon for instance) with Parallels. Very straight forward integration for files (drag and drop to MAC desktop, double clic opens Parallel opens program in Win).

This is interesting. I am trying to discover if M2 is different?

Tim B.


Greg Morin greg.morin@seachem.com

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Jul 13, 2022, 1:40:42 PMJul 13
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Ok, probably dumb question, but why would one need to run "classic helix" at this point. Collections can be run on the latest intel hardware and 10.14... which is where I thought we were all currently "stuck". Are you saying some folks are still using their Helix under classic emulation on a PPC Mac? Why? Why not simply update the collection to run under Helix 8? 

Greg Morin


On Jul 12, 2022, at 13:58, Michael S. Scaramella, Esq. M...@ScaraHoof.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

Louis,

Yes—I was referring to Mac OS 9. In particular, Mac OS 9.2.x, which is required by Classic Helix applications and which was not supported by older virtualization software. See the Mac OS 9.2.1 system in the “gallery” page linked to in the part of my original message quoted below.

Please consider testing this if you can. I would do so, but do not yet have a computer with an M-series SoC.

Regards,

Michael

On Jul 12, 2022, at 11:02 AM, Louis lo...@simonac.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> wrote:

Classic as in Mac OS 9?

Le 12 juill. 2022 à 10:38, Michael S. Scaramella, Esq. M...@ScaraHoof.com <Hel...@gibhenry.com> a écrit :

Emulate classic operating systems.

Not only can you run the latest and greatest operating systems, you can also emulate older operating systems whether it's on PowerPC, SPARC, or x86_64. Check out the gallery for some examples of what you can run. (Emphasis added.)

Michael S. Scaramella, Esq. MSS@ScaraHoof.com

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Jul 13, 2022, 2:39:19 PMJul 13
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Greg,

Multiple long-unresolved and well-documented problems with Helix 8 in particular, and Helix for macOS X and later in general, prevent me from upgrading our Collection files. Several particularly salient problems that come to mind in no particular order are: data loss on data export, incompatibility with contemporary custom-designed fonts used extensively in our Collection files, consistently failing lookups especially when based upon previous lookups, premature validations, automatic advancement of focus to the next data rectangle set to “Allow tab” when a control selection is made, and irreversible destruction of the very important and carefully maintained organization of icons in Icon Display Mode when the Align Icons To Grid command is run. Our continued dependence upon Classic Helix is far from voluntary.

I have no practical choice except to continue using Helix RADE 6 for both Classic and 32-bit macOS to maintain our complex Collection files. I have developed a few small Helix-based applications using Helix RADE 7 by carefully working around problems and limitations. Nothing more is practically feasible at present.

Michael

Lenny Eiger eiger@databright.com

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Jul 13, 2022, 3:34:13 PMJul 13
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Michael,

We have addressed all of these issues:

data loss on data export
We have discovered the limit of exporting data, and now use a series of functions to pull out data in loops. We load 16 or 17 thousand records to a database on the iPhone. Quickly and without error. 

incompatibility with contemporary custom-designed fonts used extensively in our Collection files
We simply chose other fonts. 

consistently failing lookups especially when based upon previous lookups
Lookups should not be based on other lookups. We simply don't do this, or very rarely. One can't fully normalize Helix, as it can't do what other databases call "relations".

premature validations
We use conditional sequences for validating. Validation in Helix has many problems, especially that it is only reliable on new records..

automatic advancement of focus to the next data rectangle set to “Allow tab” when a control selection is made
I don't see this as an issue. 

and irreversible destruction of the very important and carefully maintained organization of icons in Icon Display Mode when the Align Icons To Grid command is run. 
I never run this command. I have AppleScripts that I have developed to arrange icons in a specific place, rename them, and so on.

I also never use Auto-Open posting. It's an old technique that is superseded by what sequences can do.


When I wrote the first version of the CRM mobile app we were in Swift 2. Then came 2.2, 4, 5, and so on. Each time, the app required a rewrite, both because new and better things were available, but also because some stopped working, or never really did (Auto-Layout). 

I respect your desire to maintain old systems. However, I wouldn't suggest it to anyone. I can't tell my clients that their program only works on an OS that is 10 years old, or more. The expect me to keep up. It reflects badly on your company's ability to adapt to changing programming conditions.

There are a lot of folks that are committed to one feature or another in Helix. The figured out a way to use it that they like. Some of these will undoubtedly disappear in an upcoming release. We simply don't have the same OS we had in 1983, and Pascal, as good as it was then, is not a reasonable language to work in today. Things change. As developers, we have to be creative and come up with news ways to solve each of the issues in question. The only way thru time is forward.


Lenny




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