COVID-19 Policy Update Informal Proposal

[S.M.P. Newstead]

Due to multiple instances of confusion regarding our policy for safety measures against COVID-19, HeatSync board voted to adopt the policy that is currently in place for the city of Mesa. 

The precedent for the board making this decision can be found here: https://wiki.heatsynclabs.org/wiki/Bylaws#AMENDMENTS

However, we wanted to be sure of the community's input, especially since it's not strictly a bylaws change, so please start the discussion here. Lack of discussion or agreement will result in these additional blue policies becoming the latest update to our policies. This is open for discussion until Thursday, December 10, at 9 PM, after HYH. 

Mesa COVID policies can be found here: 

https://www.mesaaz.gov/home/showpublisheddocument?id=40078

These restrictions are slightly less comprehensive than the ones we enacted in July, but the gist remains the same as before: 

• No more than 10 people should be in the lab at any one time.

• Non-vented face coverings are required while inside the lab.  Masks should be worn properly and cover the wearer’s nose and mouth.

• Users of the space are asked to clean and sanitize the area where they worked.

• If the 10-person limit is reached, members or students attending classes should be given priority over non-members.
  

• Additionally, the country-wide medical exemption clause applies, but should not be abused. There are very, very few conditions which preclude mask usage. 

• Furthermore, in accordance with city/county policies, a single individual is not required to wear a mask in the space while alone.

• Also of note is that masks are not required in the city of Mesa policy, so long as there is sufficient distance between two individuals (six feet) and they are seated. I am not so sure this is a good idea, speaking as a biochemist. However, I think that a person at the laser and a person at the 3D printers are no risk to one another. But a group of people in the machine shop 6 feet apart, I would want to be wearing masks. This point needs clarification. 

Please explore this peer-reviewed article saying that the rate of airborne COVID transmission is negligible:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30514-2/fulltext

The CDC also states: "Available data indicate that SARS-CoV-2 has spread more like most other common respiratory viruses, primarily through respiratory droplet transmission within a short range (e.g., less than six feet). There is no evidence of efficient spread (i.e., routine, rapid spread) to people far away or who enter a space hours after an infectious person was there."

Current evidence (not paranoia) indicate that airborne transmission only occurs in very limited circumstances, such as enclosed space, which do not apply to us. Furthermore, as this coronavirus is more well-understood, it is emerging that it is similar in its transmission to the "common cold" coronaviruses. Influenza and "common cold" coronavirus strains do not require aerosol protections in the hospital, because the evidence points to that being a negligible route of transmission.

Discussion and suggestions are welcome if anything was forgotten or needs to be modified! If anything needs to be amended, the vote can, and will, be redone. Also please bear in mind that if you are worried, you may enact all the personal safety you wish to do, and will increase your own protection as a result. I am happy to provide more peer-reviewed research if needed. 

[S.M.P. Newstead]

I'd like to further state that the negligible risk of airborne transmission would be greatly ameliorated by indoor air purifiers, such as those in Mike Wolfson's proposal. See this study for more information:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412020317876

[Antonio Contrisciani]

There have been multiple formal studies showing that mask wearing reduces spread of covid 19. This is established fact. If the virus transmission isn't airborne, then how does this correlate with mask wearing reducing rates of infection?

I'm more apt to believe more than a half dozen studies conducted globally at this point than a single study dismissing them. 

As for individuals not wearing a mask when alone or at opposite ends of the lab, that has the assumption that users will sanitize surfaces touched after use. I can tell you from first hand observation at multiple occasions that people rarely avail themselves of the sanitizer let alone disinfect their workstation when leaving. 

Mask wearing reduces the amount of particulate a user can spread to their station while working, which in turn makes it both easier to keep disinfected as well as reduces possibility of infection when they don't disinfect. 

Honestly with positivity rates exceeding 27.2 percent on testing I would have expected the board to adopt more stringent requirements. 

Regarding medical exemptions, have you once had any one complain yet? Had anyone been unable to get work done in the lab because they are unable to wear a mask medically and the previous requirements prevented them from visiting?

I would also point out that while the city of Mesa does not require masks if there is sufficient distance between individuals or when alone the requirements by Maricopa county have no such verbage and supercede the city regulations. See attached. 

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[Jaime Glasser]

Thank you for clarifying this policy and bringing it up formally now and asking for input. We are now headed for the worst statistics here in Maricopa County since the beginning of the outbreak.

 

I believe that any regulations should be simple and easily enforceable and not be different if someone is or is not within 6 feet of someone else as we walk around the lab a lot looking for tools etc. I would support a mandatory mask rule inside HSL in general except for health exemptions which are rare. 

And getting the air purifiers are a wonderful idea. I am grateful for our informed board and the proactive approach. As a past scientist and someone at severe risk for infection I am grateful.

Thank you

Jaime

Jaime Glasser DVM MS

PO Box 5060

Mesa, AZ 85211

480-694-3049

jme...@mac.com

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On Dec 8, 2020, at 7:05 PM, Antonio Contrisciani <mib....@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CALmAu86WXMKwoEOnt%3D1CwXtz0rPYC%2ByASMt4%2BneT2TNvcPnSzA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Antonio Contrisciani]

The article you posted,  https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30514-2/fulltext does not say that airborne transmission is negligible, in fact it says the exact opposite.

"...but growing evidence has highlighted that infective microdroplets are small enough to remain suspended in the air and expose individuals at distances beyond 2 m from an infected person. This knowledge is also corroborated by investigation of spread of cases between people who were not in direct or indirect contact, suggesting that airborne transmission was the most likely route. In July, over 200 scientists published a statement calling for international bodies to recognise the potential for airborne spread of COVID-19 as they were concerned that people would not be fully protected by adhering to the current recommendations.On Oct 5, 2020, the CDC updated their COVID-19 webpage to say that there is growing evidence that COVID-19 infection can occur from airborne exposure to the virus under certain circumstances. "

Further there is a difference between airborne transmission and droplet transmission. Airborne transmission is where a person is in an area, leaves and someone else moves into that area minutes or hours later, and becomes infected by virus that remains airborne. Droplet transmission is from coughing or sneezing when a person is nearby. While many studies show "most" droplets fall within 2 meters, several other studies have shown droplets can travel up to twenty feet when a person is not wearing a mask.

The lancet article, the cdc, and several other groups are 100% that masks and social distancing are the most effective method of stopping droplet transmission.

Finally that lancet article is an editorial in a peer reviewed journal. The article itself is neither peer reviewed, nor is it based on any specific study.
This article https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412020317876 is peer reviewed, and is based on the following studies
 one published paper (Ong et al. 2020), one early-release paper (Guo et al., 2020) and 5 papers still in pre-print at the time of writing (Chia et al., 2020, Ding et al., 2020, Jiang et al., 2019, Liu et al., 2020, Santarpia et al., 2020)

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[Antonio Contrisciani]

That article also does stress the importance of engineering (air purification, ventilation, circulation) for virus control, so filtration is a great idea.

[S.M.P. Newstead]

Airborne short-distance is different from airborne long-distance. I can furnish dozens more studies, if you wish. We're saying that masks are not needed when no one is around, just like the city policy states. The clause in red is not to be enacted, but to be discussed, as we are doing here. Further discussion is needed about someone at the laser not wearing a mask while someone is at the 3D printer. Masks work because of short-distance transmission, usually in crowds. The article, the editorial, is peer-reviewed, as are all letters to editor in major medical journals with high impact factor, and not accepted if they contain misinformation. More studies state that closed spaces with poor ventilation are the method by which transmission greater than 2 m happens in aerosol fashion. Furthermore, there are methodological flaws with many of the airborne studies, as there were in the early days of thinking covid was transferred through surfaces (which is no longer accepted in the medical community as a meaningful mode of transmission). Specifically, just because viruses are detected in air at a certain concentration, does not mean they are pathogenic at that time. If, and only if, they can be cultured and propagated can that be truly determined and the studies that measure pathogenicity of covid have found its transmissibility to be overwhelmingly within 2 m, with the exception of enclosed (hospital room size) and poorly-ventilated spaces. I'll add that many of the advice is based on calculations, such as in this study, which only measures the distance particles of a certain diameter may fly and predict nothing of the pathogenicity. Thank you for your concerned response. 

[Cprossu]

I think this is great that we're being proactive about this, discussing and debating our options.

If anything I know I shall actually be changing my habits if I should visit the lab (at all) given how the current numbers for Arizona have skyrocketed, and I am of the opinion that mask wearing at all times would likely be easier to enforce than having scenarios where one or more can go without. While it makes sense to allow no masks if one person is in the lab scientifically, policy wise it seems like an extraneous thing to add when perhaps a simple rule could be used with less confusion. We do have a big space, especially for 10 people, but if it were up to me, my feeling would be that we should err on the side of caution and be a little overprotective. The limit of people in the lab being 10 or less though absolutely helps and I think makes sure that our meetings and being at the hackerspace do not turn into superspreader like events

We might want to also consider sanitation updates to our bathrooms and make some posters with procedures to be done after each use including not flushing clorox wipes or paper towels down the toilet to avoid the situation we recently underwent.

I am all for getting air filters running at the lab, let's make sure we get enough member support at the next virtual HYH to make this happen coming up this Thursday December 10th, 2020.

[A E]

Prudence dictates that we take extra precautions (including wearing a mask at all times and encouraging sanitization of tools/equipment after use). Given the nature of HeatSync, with common facilities and common spaces, it is better to error on the side of caution. This is not due to paranoia, but consideration and common curtesy for others that use the facilities. I am not advocating that an entire area be cleaned right after use, but commonly touched things like computer keyboards/mice, control boxes of machines, and hand tools should at least be given a one-over with a Lysol wipe after use. Same idea as wiping off the workout machines  at the gym after you use them. Again, what i am saying is not due to paranoia, but is meant to be proactive. The city of Mesa has set a low bar (IMHO), and as a community, we should make the effort to go above and beyond to ensure the safety of everyone walking into HeatSync, and if that means having to wear a mask when the only other person is at the opposite side of the workspace, so be it. I wore a mask for 18 hours a day 6 days a week when i worked in Japan an i would probably still do it even if there wasnt a pandemic, because it is common curtesy. 

just my two cents 

On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 8:38:11 PM UTC-7 smpne...@gmail.com wrote:

[S.M.P. Newstead]

Thanks for your valuable input. One could always be extra cautious and avoid rarities from occurring. Arizona is certainly not a litmus for excellence in any sense, I agree. However, medical policy is usually dictated by evidence, not if it's the safest thing. It's not saying that no one gets sick ever, but that it's not a high probability. I see the part in red is generating controversy, as I expected it would. Does anyone have objections to the addenda of medical exemption and not wearing a mask when no one is there? If so, we can address each of those individually. 

[Antonio Contrisciani]

Has there been any member to date who felt they couldn't come in because they were medically unable to wear a mask? Have there been any complaints at all by someone? If the membership has been willing to go without medical exemptions for what... 6+ months? Why is there a drive to change it? Usually a medical exemption claim is used by antimaskers to avoid the mandates.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/73fcd99d-9177-43be-971f-33fc0dc2e197n%40googlegroups.com.

[Cprossu]

While I understand why we would want to add this to be more in line with the city, whatever our obligations as who we are imply, and I can't think of anyone in our memberbase who would abuse such a exemption for their own preference/political stance as opposed to actually having a medical reason for not wearing a facemask, I know that people around the community have been making cards and documents which say that they are medically exempt when they are not to fit their convenience. I am not a lawyer, and I am not sure we have any standing or ability to validate said claims or should be in the position to do so.

If this change to the language is made, it could put me in the same kind of danger I am trying to avoid having a compromised immune system.
In my opinion would be that it is a case by case basis, and made public in some way as to give whoever is hosting or at the lab some kind of heads up. This means a form of forced discrimination which is a bad thing too, so I am against adding it.

[A E]

Expanding on the exemption: There is very very few medical conditions that qualify mask exemptions. An ADA compliance office sums it up nicely (link below). Do i accept reasonable modifications? absolutely. But i think we should follow the guidelines outlined by the ADA when it comes to outright exemption. As for wearing a mask for when you are the only one in the workspace? I will. should it be mandatory? no. But it should be encouraged

On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 9:34:20 PM UTC-7 mib....@gmail.com wrote:

[A E]

forgot the link:

https://www.adasoutheast.org/ada/publications/legal/ada-and-face-mask-policies.php#t1

ADA about Fraudulent exemptions: 

https://www.ada.gov/covid-19_flyer_alert.html

[S.M.P. Newstead]

Who is this? Have we met? I personally have a medical exemption, from my pulmonologist AND my oncologist, due to a terminal illness and have been using my exemption to not wear it on my nose so that I might breathe. Despite people knowing that I am going to die from stopping breathing and am on my way there, people have commented on my nose being exposed multiple times, often rudely. I always find it amusing that the lay population think they know better than all of my physicians. And yes, we have other sick members. 

The drive is because people have been unclear on the rules for mask usage and it has resulted in discord. Just because there is terrible behavior from other people in the country at large does not mean I do not trust our membership to be honest. They are always honorable. Guilt by association is a fallacy, and I do not care for people accusing our disabled members of being liars. You can't know that "usually" a medical exemption is a lie. Given the rate of COPD alone in this country, many of them are, in fact, not liars. 

Cpro, anyone sick enough to not be able to wear a mask will never be an asymptomatic carrier. I get a cytokine storm and end up in ICU from the cold, for example. I can automatically think of one other person who may or may not be able to wear a mask, and I wouldn't want that person to experience what I have experienced. It's legally discriminating to not include a medical exemption clause and we are supposed to be disability-accessible. 

On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 9:34:20 PM UTC-7 mib....@gmail.com wrote:

[S.M.P. Newstead]

Yes, those people are total jerks, really they are. Like Cpro said though, no one in our community would do that. I can't speak for Walmart, haha.

[S.M.P. Newstead]

We should follow ADA guidelines, absolutely. We currently are not. 

[Antonio Contrisciani]

Have your physicians weighed in on wearing a face shield? Most professionals agree that users who have trouble breathing can wear face shields without issue.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/98b67a3f-cc57-4100-b33f-fbd0586216d7n%40googlegroups.com.

[Antonio Contrisciani]

That was a key component of Pletcher vs Giant Eagle https://casetext.com/case/pletcher-v-giant-eagle-inc 

[S.M.P. Newstead]

They and I agreed that a mask covering my mouth gave me the best protection and would make people most at ease. My point is that we cannot be exclusive against the disabled. It's against our mission and against the law. Can't wait to read that decision; I love case law. I only see "mib." Who are you? Have we met? 

[Antonio Contrisciani]

How are we currently not following ada guidelines? ADA guidelines are as follows: 

If a person with a disability is not able to wear a face mask, state and local government agencies and private businesses must consider reasonable modifications to a face mask policy so that the person with the disability can participate in, or benefit from, the programs offered or goods and services that are provided. A reasonable modification means changing policies, practices, and procedures, if needed, to provide goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to an individual with a disability.[10] It is important to focus on how to provide goods or services to a customer with a disability in an equal manner. This can be done by reasonably modifying your policies, practices, or procedures.

The requirement to modify a policy, practice, or procedure does not include individuals without disabilities, as they are not protected under the ADA.

Examples of reasonable modifications to a face mask policy
Allow a person to wear a scarf, loose face covering, or full face shield instead of a face mask;[Man wearing a face shield.]
Allow customers to order online with curbside pick-up or no contact delivery in a timely manner;
Allow customers to order by phone with curb-side pick-up or no contact delivery in a timely manner;
Allow a person to wait in a car for an appointment and enter the building when called or texted; or
Offer appointments by telephone or video calls.

[Antonio Contrisciani]

Antonio. I'm not sure if we have met in person, I have been helping cpro get the 3d printers up and running and getting them updated. 

[Cprossu]

I can understand this. It very much sucks for you to be in that position right now, and the change to the language now has context in my eyes.

It's a rock and a hard place for me. I've been distancing myself and trying to be really careful, moreso than most. I found out a close friend of mine I have not seen since early October came up covid-19 positive last night, hoping he does okay. He could not figure out where he got it from, but they did go to grocery stores and such rather than have things delivered. Up until now it's been secondary contacts that have been occurring, but as time passes more direct people I know have it or have had it, and I can't afford to. I had thanksgiving alone, and christmas will be the same, not trying to have a great gathering of even family members.

This just sucks.

sorry for ranting.

[Jaime Glasser]

I agree with Shaundra implicitly. We can not by law not honor health exemptions...we must allow them. Other then that we should require masks indoors. Period. I doubt any of our members would abuse this exemption and there is nothing wrong with asking people nicely we do not know if they are medically exempt.  It is responsible especially as a host. 

Jaime Glasser DVM MS

PO Box 5060

Mesa, AZ 85211

480-694-3049

jme...@mac.com

Instigating Art and Community

Pet Hospice Author: 

https://bit.ly/3b4umdb

2 minute read: Here, Not Here

IG @jaimeglasser

FB: Jaime Glasser

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On Dec 8, 2020, at 10:05 PM, Antonio Contrisciani <mib....@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CALmAu84pcoLjgcKdfx%2BTK_D-spwEzO8BHN4_AXBgh-cbcrsHfw%40mail.gmail.com.

[S.M.P. Newstead]

Oh, hi, we just granted you a scholarship. Cpro should be sending our letter along soon. ;)

Anxiety, in the legal case you posted, is not a pulmonological illness and is not fatal. Central hypoventilation secondary to Leigh syndrome and severe anemia due to leukemia, are, and anyone that knows me and voted me champion three years in a row, and seen me running the biochemistry lab for five years, as well as being a published medical researcher and chemist for a decade, doesn't believe I am deceiving anyone for personal "gain." Believe me, having my nose exposed or wearing a shield increase my risk of transmitting an illness from which I will die. 

If Cpro came in tomorrow and said he couldn't wear the mask anymore, I would absolutely believe him, as a friend, a colleague and because of the condition he has and my knowledge of medicine. No one should give him a hard time if that happened. We have a lot of older members and if one of them was recovering from pneumonia, I would believe them too. We have politically, generationally, and religiously diverse people, but they always leave it at the door, and that is one of the best things about HeatSync! 

Our current policies have no mention of the disabled and in fact, the wording currently excludes the disabled, which is probably why people have been rude to me. Not you, since you didn't know, but people who have known for a long time. Granted, I probably should have been at the HYH where this was enacted and it surely would have been included, but to my benefit, I was in the hospital. Where I am not required to wear a mask, by the way. But you should know that I'm pretty sure we don't have any Karens. I also happen to disagree with the ADA part where you are not required to divulge your illness. I think the illness and its severity dictate any exceptions. I don't include asthma, unless that person is having an active asthma attack, and I definitely don't include anxiety. If wearing the mask means you might die, then I include it, and again, those are very few. 

Any thoughts on the wearing a mask when no one is there clause? 

Look forward to meeting in person and having engaging intellectual dialogue. 

[S.M.P. Newstead]

If we were bigger, it could be an issue. Antimask people generally don't come to a socialist place like HeatSync anyway, haha. Every single HSL person is fantastic and would never be a jerk, except for the jerks and they went away....

Okay, so Antonio is "mib." Who's "aeri"? 

[A E]

Im Anthony! I am a very green member (Joined in November). I worked at a Makers space while I was in Japan for Grad school. Im big into classical Japanese woodworking, and woodworking in general, So ill usually be in the back of the shop. Not to get off topic, i would like to know more about your work (My PhD is in Developmental Biology), be interesting to talk to you in the future.

[Antonio Contrisciani]

Dont get me wrong, Im not trying to be combative or judge anyone. I'm just seeking more information on the whole scenario.

I spent a year in icu myself several years back, followed up by 5 years in a wheelchair, another 3 on a walker, and I will be on a cane for the rest of my life. I will be immunosuppressed for the rest of my life as well. There's nothing I can do about it and with covid I have been extra precautious.

What's frustrating is when you have an actual disability, watching an able bodied person screaming in the face of a minimum wage worker demanding that they deserve an exemption to a public policy put in place to protect others. Note this has nothing to do with your situation or other members, just something I have personally witnessed. The ADA is designed to get businesses to accommodate those of us with problems, not to be used as a club when someone doesn't agree with a business and even pre covid I watched it happen more often than not. I have also been on the receiving end of it as well. I missed a flight because LAX didn't have the necessary equipment to scan my wheelchair and didn't have terminal wheelchairs available. Because of missing my flight I had to reschedule an appointment with a specialist at mayo clinic who had flown out from Rochester. It was a giant colossal idiotic screwup that should never have happened if the airline was ada compliant and the most they offered me was a voucher for a free future one way flight from lax to phx, same year. I feel your pain entirely. I really do.

To put it another way, as I said I'll be on a cane the rest of my life. I will probably be back in the wheelchair within the next 10 years realistically. Putting on shoes is literally torture for me. I have to have my wife help me put on socks and shoes and it is a process that causes significant pain and time. But I can't not wear shoes. even if I'm in a wheelchair I have to have shoes on in nearly every public place on earth. It makes sense. It's a public health issue and a possible injury issue. Liability, etc.

Now I can wear sandals, they don't hurt so much, they are easier to get on and off, and weather permitting I don't need socks. Most businesses accept sandals as a foot covering. But everytime I start a new job, it's a whole dance and rigamarole to try and get them to acknowledge that its a perfectly acceptable accommodation under the ADA to wear sandals at work (assuming it's not like, a metal shop or something)

Personally, I think there are a lot of options for people right now to cover their faces without violating medical issues. I could be wrong, I'm not an epidemiologist, nor an oncologist like your doctor, heck I don't even have a medical degree, but I read everything I can about this virus because I am in an "extraordinary" high risk group. I get regularly tested, even when I haven't been exposed, because going even a week untreated could be fatal to me. So I fall on the side of extreme caution. If I had my druthers, there would be a federal mask mandate and medical exemptions would have a specified option such as a clear face shield until case positivity was below 5%. But I know that's swinging the dial to the other far side of extreme. There has to be a middle ground. But I really don't want to make my wife a widow or my kid an orphan, so please excuse me if I seem a bit reactionary. 

I think having people with masks off in the lab at all is a bad idea whether it's two people at opposite ends, or it's a person alone, and I think there are adequate reasonable accommodations for the vast majority of cases that would arise under ADA. 

I am quite sorry that anyones been rude to you about wearing your mask just over your mouth however. There's no grounds for people to be rude to each other, especially in a community like this. The most anyone should ever do is politely ask if there's a reason you aren't wearing it on your nose and if you say "yes" that's all it should be.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/09820554-a784-4575-8d3e-4f124ea93ab6n%40googlegroups.com.

[A E]

I agree with Antonio. Again it boils down to curtesy and consideration. I wear a mask not for my sake, but for the community's sake. I dont know the person's medical history who is in the shop with me at the opposite end of the workshop and i personally think it is rude to ask. I dont know if I am asymptomatic for something (covid or any other infections disease), and the person in the same building as me could be harmed by my asymptomatic disease. It was mention that  medical policy is dictated by evidence and not safety. While that is true in practice for a city or town with diverse shops and services (one size doesnt fit all), morally i think that is wrong to limit our actions as a communal space. If there is a scintilla of a chance that a person could get sick because of me, I would go out of the way to ensure I do everything possible to limit my exposure with them, including wearing a mask despite being on the other side of the workspace. No one is hurt by being overcautious and proactive. Being overcautious makes the situation better for people with medical conditions and who legitimately cant wear a mask or face shield. This applies especially in communal areas, like HeatSync, where many different people form many different backgrounds and many different medical illnesses share equipment. In this case, safety should override medical policy based on evidence. Safety usually involves going above and beyond the minimal standards set by medical policy because the environment is more controlled. 

If I had it my way, any able person should wear a mask while inside the workspace, regardless if they are alone or on the other side of the building. The vast majority of people are not physically inhibited from wearing a mask. Are they mildly inconvenience? yes. But the more you wear a mask, the more comfortable it gets. 

[S.M.P. Newstead]

No, I welcome dialogue, particularly about something as contentious and emotionally-charged as this horrible covid scenario. To me, debate and dialogue are just fine as long as there are no ad hominems. Scores of needless deaths could have been prevented with masks and cautious behavior and it is those Karens making people like us have a harder time, for sure. We'll probably need a community vote on this on Thursday, which is what I suspected, but it's good to get the thoughts out ahead of time to save time. I do think most of our people are decent and honest, though.

I haven't gotten tested regularly because I usually come down with a cytokine storm within 12 hours of exposure to really stupid stuff, and definitely exotic stuff, like sepsis, in 2 hours. A face shield is fine for breathing problems, but I'm afraid of inhaling a bunch of covid and bigotry, so I cover the most of it I can. If I'm around anyone exceptionally...dense...I pull it over my nose for a bit. Like when I was at a predominantly-black neighborhood Walmart and the only other white woman in the store bumped into me and then was talking in my face with no mask and was like, "Oh, well, people like us don't mind no mask, right honey?" I can't even.... 

I'll also be wheelchair-bound for my (medical) visit to my mother in Idaho in January; they have no mandatory mask usage and no one wears one (my mother says they have a mask-burning protest outside her local Walmart, lol) and I cannot risk even exposing my nose, and therefore cannot walk without losing consciousness. Incidentally, American Airlines treated me like garbage for being disabled, while Southwest is usually quite decent. Anyway, at least you and I, and some of our other HeatSync friends, can get the vaccine right after medical people!

Anthony, I am not thinking we've met. I usually have been too sick for the lab lately, but I do a lot in the woodshop as well, and do certification on things like the wood lathe. I make historically-informed instruments from the Renaissance and Baroque periods and perform on some of them. I built a Renaissance trombone and played a Schutz performance back in April of last year. I have a particular fondness for several Japanese woodworking tools. It would be great to talk, yes. The bulk of my research has been discovering my disease and treatments for Leigh syndrome, as well as physiological manifestations of mitochondrial disease that are currently unknown, and I am currently the oldest in the world (with infantile onset) at 30 years old. I also have a side interest in reverse-engineering patented pharmaceuticals and synthesizing them for personal use, especially in Leigh syndrome. Also, coincidental you both were in Japan. I myself lived in China for a while. Anyway, I can't wait for this whole fiasco to be stable. My name is Shaundra, by the way. 

On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 10:37:33 PM UTC-7 mib....@gmail.com wrote:

[Jot Powers]

I wanted to let this settle down a bit and provide my $.02

• No one here is an epidemiologist or a lawyer.  So getting into detailed discussions specifically on covid or ADA is outside of our circle of competence.
• Face masks are the single most effective way to reduce risk.
• Getting into details about whose health is worse is counterproductive.  That's between you and your doctors.  Not everyone has obvious risk factors.
• Creating conflict by having every individual feel like they have to police the policy, to one side or the other, is uncomfortable and creates an unwelcoming environment on all sides.
  

Given all of that, I strongly support continuing to require masks, at all times, if you are in the lab.  That includes if you are there by yourself.  I have no particular fondness for them, and wish we weren't in a place where I now have strong opinions on what the most comfortable mask is for me, but it is the reality.

-Jot

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[S.M.P. Newstead]

Some of what you said is not clear to me, sorry. Also, some assumptions about scientific qualifications were made, to which I will not respond. You're right about the legal interpretations of ADA; that's why it's important to be over-accommodating rather than discriminating.

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[Gabriel Finke]

Thank you Jot, I agree that if you don't have an MD then please refrain from giving medical advice or suggestions in a public forum. With that said, these are more policy issues that we are able to deal with in our community. The board had come to a consensus that we will continue to follow state and federal guide lines with any decisions we make. Other than that, I personally feel apprehensive when dealing with these issues so I welcome community engagement on the topic. Just keep what I said previously in mind please.
   

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[S.M.P. Newstead]

This isn't medical advice. We're trying to follow state guidelines and people don't want to. They want more, including it seems, to include no medical exemption clause.

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[Robert Bushman]

The best epidemiologist I know has a bachelors in computer science and a
masters in marine biology. The CDC sent him to Sierra Leone
(https://www.cdc.gov/globalhealth/countries/sierra-leone/default.htm) to
develop contagion models.

I don't have any college degree, but I just transitioned from being the
technical lead on a machine learning team to managing one at one of the
Fortune 5.

Credentials may suggest that a person is qualified, but a lack of them
does not mean they are not. Intelligent, well-informed people who can
communicate respectfully should discuss any topic that interests them.
The purpose of a hackerspace is to encourage intellectual exploration.

On 12/10/20 6:16 PM, Gabriel Finke wrote:
> Thank you Jot, I agree that if you don't have an MD then please refrain
> from giving medical advice or suggestions in a public forum. With that
> said, these are more policy issues that we are able to deal with in our
> community. The board had come to a consensus that we will continue to
> follow state and federal guide lines with any decisions we make. Other
> than that, I personally feel apprehensive when dealing with these issues
> so I welcome community engagement on the topic. Just keep what I said
> previously in mind please.
>
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2020, 5:49 PM S.M.P. Newstead <smpne...@gmail.com
> <mailto:smpne...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Some of what you said is not clear to me, sorry. Also, some
> assumptions about scientific qualifications were made, to which I
> will not respond. You're right about the legal interpretations of
> ADA; that's why it's important to be over-accommodating rather than
> discriminating.
>
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2020, 17:08 Jot Powers <jot.p...@gmail.com
> <mailto:jot.p...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I wanted to let this settle down a bit and provide my $.02
>

> * No one here is an epidemiologist or a lawyer.  So getting

> into detailed discussions specifically on covid or ADA is
> outside of our circle of competence.

> * Face masks are the single most effective way to reduce risk.
> * Getting into details about whose health is worse is

> counterproductive.  That's between you and your doctors.
> Not everyone has obvious risk factors.

> * Creating conflict by having every individual feel like they

> have to police the policy, to one side or the other, is
> uncomfortable and creates an unwelcoming environment on all
> sides.
>
> Given all of that, I strongly support continuing to require
> masks, at all times, if you are in the lab.  That includes if
> you are there by yourself.  I have no particular fondness for
> them, and wish we weren't in a place where I now have strong
> opinions on what the most comfortable mask is for me, but it is
> the reality.
>
> -Jot
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:17 PM S.M.P. Newstead
> <smpne...@gmail.com <mailto:smpne...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> No, I welcome dialogue, particularly about something as
> contentious and emotionally-charged as this horrible covid
> scenario. To me, debate and dialogue are just fine as long

> as there are no /ad hominems/. Scores of needless deaths

> could have been prevented with masks and cautious behavior
> and it is those Karens making people like us have a harder
> time, for sure. We'll probably need a community vote on this
> on Thursday, which is what I suspected, but it's good to get
> the thoughts out ahead of time to save time. I do think most
> of our people are decent and honest, though.
>
> I haven't gotten tested regularly because I usually come
> down with a cytokine storm within 12 hours of exposure to
> really stupid stuff, and definitely exotic stuff, like
> sepsis, in 2 hours. A face shield is fine for breathing
> problems, but I'm afraid of inhaling a bunch of covid and
> bigotry, so I cover the most of it I can. If I'm around
> anyone exceptionally...dense...I pull it over my nose for a
> bit. Like when I was at a predominantly-black neighborhood
> Walmart and the only other white woman in the store bumped
> into me and then was talking in my face with no mask and was

> like, "Oh, well, people like /us/ don't mind no mask, right

> Despite people/knowing/ that

> *

>
> No
> more
> than
> 10
> people
> should
> be
> in
> the
> lab
> at
> any
> one
> time.
>

> *

>
> Non-vented
> face
> coverings
> are
> required
> while
> inside
> the
> lab.
> Masks
> should
> be
> worn
> properly
> and
> cover
> the
> wearer’s
> nose
> and
> mouth.
>

> *

>
> Users
> of
> the
> space
> are
> asked
> to
> clean
> and
> sanitize
> the
> area
> where
> they
> worked.
>

> *

>
> If
> the
> 10-person
> limit
> is
> reached,
> members
> or
> students
> attending
> classes
> should
> be
> given
> priority
> over
> non-members.
>

> *

>
> Additionally,
> the
> country-wide
> medical
> exemption
> clause
> applies,
> but
> should
> not
> be
> abused.
> There
> are
> very,
> very
> few
> conditions
> which
> preclude
> mask
> usage.
>
>

> *

>
> Furthermore,
> in
> accordance
> with
> city/county
> policies,
> a single
> individual
> is
> not
> required
> to
> wear
> a mask
> in
> the
> space
> while
> alone.
>

> *

> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/ac0711e7-5d8a-4715-85bc-e6d018395d6fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
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[S.M.P. Newstead]

Hear, hear. But yeah, we're going to send out a voting form to the community to settle this. We'll see where it goes. I value all of your inputs. 

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[Jaime Glasser]

😂😂😂if they only knew HOW qualified you and I are Shaundra!!???

This is not medical advice it is a policy decision that our board must make but thankfully with the ability to take the science behind the guidelines into consideration.

 
I do believe it would be illegal to not honor medical exemptions ....but I am NOT qualified for law questions.

And FWIW there are many more profoundly LESS qualified then those in our amazing community (who respect and understand science) that are making these policy decisions with ignorance and defiance of the science at all levels .

On Dec 10, 2020, at 6:29 PM, S.M.P. Newstead <smpne...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[S.M.P. Newstead]

Yeah, true, but Antonio is right that Arizona isn't exactly a pinnacle of scientific prowess to be emulated in any way. Haha....

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