Proposal Remove live web cameras

[Mike Wolfson]

The upgraded and higher resolution cameras for the main space in the lab make people uncomfortable.

I'm proposing that we remove them.

---------------------------------------------------------
I understand this was recently proposed, but I feel like resolution was unsatisfactory and didn't resolve the main issue that people feel uncomfortable with the cameras.

Please see these previous links which include discussion and input:

Reopening the Issue Involving Surveillance Cameras

or

When this was recently proposed

[Mike Wolfson]

We should keep discussion in the thread:

Reopening the Issue Involving Surveillance Cameras

NOT here (so we don't fragment discussion further).

[Eric Ose]

Someone needs to propose something different than has already been voted on. I don't intend on being there on Thursday for this vote. I don't spend my time in places that I'm not comfortable. Also I find it ridiculous to make no changes to the proposal and expect a different result.

My proposal (shown here and below) did allow for things to be set up in any number of ways as long as they didn't show the people in the lab. For some reason the discussion at HYH had people concluding the other options listed in my proposal were not possibilities.

If it is really true that my proposal makes the listed possibilities impossible then someone needs to start a brainstorm on other possibilities.

The proposal as I wrote it:

This proposal is to remove the live webcams from the internet.
This is only regarding the live cameras showing the lab and people in the lab on the website, not the cameras focused on projects or tools. Nor is it regarding the security cameras.
Here is a non exhaustive list of possibilities in line with this proposal:
A: Disable them by whatever means so they don't show on the website
B: Reuse them as project cams not focused on the people in the lab
C: Configure them for security cameras to record, but not live viewing on the website

Eric Ose

Robot Ambassador

Sometimes cool things just happen, but usually you have to plan them.

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[Chris McLaughlin]

I want to start this by saying that I do not care either way about the cameras.
I think that as we just voted on this proposal, another vote is not needed. No new information has come to light and no other changes have been made that it needs another vote. It feels like this is just to see if the side that wants a different outcome can load the meeting to change the result. I feel like there should be a 12 month burn in process to determine results of a proposal before it can be voted on again.

IE. we vote to add a hanging spot for the spoil board for the CNC router. Then the next HYH vote on it again to stop it. I had not even been installed yet. It does not make any sense.

[Eric Ose]

In defense of Mike's attempt. 3 people who voted to keep the cameras wished things had gone differently or at least more effort went to trying to find an alternative that would work for more people.

I honestly don't know if that would result in 1 or 2 more votes difference. I think one of them is only interested in possible alternatives.

Really hard to say how things would go when there may be more opponents to getting rid of the cameras who weren't able to attend the previous vote.

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Eric Ose
Robot Ambassador

[Sheldon McGee]

I voted against it last time and I would vote against it again but I won't be there (kid has a thing). The what if's and maybe's don't make it okay to keep bringing this up. But if it does pass on this second vote then someone can just make a new proposal to put the cameras back. Which is exactly what I'll do. Operations has nothing better to do than put up and take down camera's right? 

Is this just a diabolical plan to get more people to show up at HYH?

I think the cameras drive far more people to go to the lab than repel people but I have about the same amount of evidence to support that as there is evidence to the contrary. 

It's unfortunate that one real issue seems to be that people go to the lab expecting help and saying "no" or "I'm not hosting" seems to be outside of social norms? Is there a rule saying you have to help people? If so I had it all wrong when I tell people on tours that it's volunteer run and if you want help you should be nice to people and maybe they will help you. 

Sheldon

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[Mike Wolfson]

We had a long-time member stop coming, teaching classes, and also retire from the board, so that was a pretty significant something that happened since this was proposed the last time.

I was just trying to get some action in the appropriate way that we do around HSL. I was not trying to load the meeting. Gosh if I could get people to show up to vote I would do that. 

I do feel pretty strongly that the cameras are more harm than good, and unfortunately there is NO action to make a change to make them appropriate, and I was hoping to do that. I want to force a change somehow to either make the cameras work for our community or remove them.

My motives and intentions are good, so I just want to make sure that people know that. Refrain from suggesting differently please.

In fact, the reason I proposed this is because somebody else asked me to.

On Mon, Feb 24, 2025, 3:19 PM Chris McLaughlin <badtuf...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Jot Powers]

I'll be there tonight to vote against this again.  I am a bit frustrated that it's the same proposal from last time, but in searching wiki/groups I couldn't find anything that said it wasn't allowed, so 🤷

For me it's about a few things:

• The cameras are really useful for showing if tools are being used.
• They show that the lab is active on our website.  It gives people the ability to see there are really people there making things and working on projects, not just a website that may or may not be accurate.
• We often tell people "We should be there, but check the cameras before you make the trips"
• They're still images on the web and not recorded.  I don't find the "Well I could screen scrape it every 5 seconds and save it" to be a compelling argument.  Yes.  And then what?  You can stitch low resolution still photos together and now you have a crappy stop motion video of no value.
• There are always statements about "Well, we could do X or Y to solve the same problems".  We're not a could-ocracy, because unless someone has a plan and commits to it, that's the same as doing nothing.
• They have been there since the lab moved there and the community has been good with it for a decade. 
• It's unfortunate that it makes some people uncomfortable, but a lot of things make people uncomfortable.  I've had more uncomfortable encounters getting to and from the lab than from the result of the cameras.  The number of things that make different people feel different ways is not something we have control of.  I sympathize but these are all personal choices and I just don't believe that it outweighs the utility.

It'll be nice to catch up with people again tonight.

-Jot

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[Arnob Kabir]

I'll be there to vote for the proposal again. That being said, Sheldon and Luis have been working on a potential alternative, so if they can figure their thing out I might vote for it. But I agree with Jot that it can be frustrating for someone to see a proposal that was already denied once so readily come up again. I'm working on a proposal that addresses that, if that makes anyone feel better.

[Rick Blake]

I don't have much of a problem with proposals being resubmitted. Perhaps a third time I might be more concerned. If I thought a HYH was being stacked to force a proposal that had been rejected, I'd have to consider encouraging others to attend, hopefully to get a more reliable consensus.

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[Arnob Kabir]

That's actually why I think we need more community-wide votes (as I put in Slack), particularly for contentious issues such as the webcams: it prevents (to some extent) the stacking problem. I'm working on a proposal that standardizes that. 

[Chris McLaughlin]

I really wish I could be there tonight. I cant wait to read the results. I am out of state this week.

[Erik Wilson]

It feels like something needs to change, membership has been dwindling, rent is high, the 2nd floor is rotting, and I keep hearing about people who refuse to visit or leaving because of the cameras.

Having the doors open and offering to host is a big time sync, people (the public) have expectations and it takes tours and conversations to manage those expectations. Even being in the lab at weird hours can be a problem, personally I have had a victim of domestic violence come to the lab seeking shelter late in the night, which was a very awkward dilemma that ended with me hosting the person at the lab until the morning.

We have no obligation to these random people but inevitably someone will come in wanting to speak with "the manager", or random people looking to use the bathroom or steal stuff.

There are a lot of alternatives to the cameras that have been listed, and I think we owe it to ourselves to try some of those rather than be stuck in a static situation. Things change, we can try to adapt and grow to the situation, try new a hypothesis. 

PAXcounters, image manipulation, camera relocation, all seem like great options.

Personally I am glad that these proposals can come up again, HYH turnout overall has been pretty low from what I understand.