Proposal: Camera access compromise.

[Luis Montes]

I Hope this is a fair compromise for everyone.

Instead of having direct public access to the web cams, we use a machine learning model to detect people and overlay shapes onto a static empty lab image.  This way we can see that there are people in the lab, where they are,  but never show an image of anyone from the cameras.

On the technical side of how this will work:

We turn off public access to the cameras, but physically leave the cameras in place.
On our internal server rack, we have a process that grabs images from the current cameras on the Local Area Network only.
The images are processed with something like tensorflow to find shapes of people (but not identify anyone) in the camera images.
The public website only gets shape coordinates (saves bandwidth) and draws the shape onto the background images.

I've got some sloppy demo code, but would love to collaborate with people on this to make it look really high tech and sci-fi, Heatsync style.



This image here is using the tensorflow coco-ssd model. It's just showing two people with detection accuracy scores.  It is not a screenshot of the live camera feed.  It's a static background with shapes on it.

Thanks to Mike Wolfson for the previous proposal and keeping the conversation going.

-Luis

[Luis Montes]

I wanted to hold back on this thread given my full name, and the risk of looking like I would just go with this proposal... but no noise after a few days, I want to speak up so this doesn't get buried.

This is an excellent idea, and gives us an additional technology-forward look on the website. I'm also happy to clear up any questions around this having heard it first-hand.

I'll be in Dallas by the time this gets voted on but if I was there, I would give it a thumbs up.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "HeatSync Labs" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to heatsynclabs...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CA%2B%3DVRdBF87VAC4STBiG5GvqE5YNTnU4T%3DjPW1jrXFggW0G7G%3Dg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Arnob Kabir]

Wait are you two the same person or different people?

[Darrell Wertz]

Arnob, it's a father son team.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/8de8c30b-d31e-4da9-b0e1-907dbdd4e70bn%40googlegroups.com.

--

Darrell Wertz

717-578-9884 Mobile

[Arnob Kabir]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Erik Wilson]

I still think this is a good idea, 10 years later :) https://groups.google.com/g/heatsynclabs/c/ZaiBVktbQjI/m/vjQ76mHjA-UJ

[Arnob Kabir]

Interesting that this was a topic of interest a decade ago. History repeats itself.

[Erik Wilson]

It has always been a topic of interest, like the moon and the sea, the question is just if we are at high tide or low tide at the moment.

At any rate, I'm also planning to add a meshtastic paxcounter to the lab and figuring out how to add that count info to our site.

[Michael Mathers]

I like it.  As per our brief discussion I have also been working on a supplement to this using mmWave sensor(s).  I definitely want to collaborate with you on this and I think our approaches are complimentary.  However, I will miss next weeks HYH (scuba in the Keys!) so I'll see you again in a couple weeks most like.

Here's what I got going so far.  The sensor is temporarily mounted with a Permit against the North wall (behind the 60w laser).  Occupancy of the zones can be detected and history recorded.  The sensor is the HLK-LD2450 (mfr $5) paired with an ESP32 uC.

Michael 

[Erik Wilson]

That is great Michael! Perhaps I could piggyback off your MQTT setup for pax counts, or maybe we can find a way to combine the mm wave and pax counting onto a single ESP32.

[Luis Montes]

update:

I've got the backend code for image detection up on our github here:

https://github.com/heatsynclabs/ip-camera-data

I'm open to using other AI models, cameras, and sensors, as this one isn't super accurate.

I've got the camdata service live here temporarily until we host it at the lab internally:

https://hsl-cam-data-83515ce7ac94.herokuapp.com/camdata

When this is all done we can crank the settings of the web cams up for more accuracy as they only be used inside the space for image detection.

What's been really nice about this approach is we can really experiment with the visuals and the /camdata service is multi-threaded and runs in the background, so even high traffic on the data source won't be a problem as it's just reading the cache which updates every second.

I'd like to push this proposal until next HYH as I've got to spend some more time on the user interface before replacing the currently live camera page.

On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 8:11 PM Luis Montes <mont...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Luis Montes]

well heroku aggressively was sniping my server because of ram utilization.  Killed it for now.

Easy enough to run locally to test it though.

[Luis Montes]

got things back online:

https://monteslu-hsl.netlify.app/live/

this will work much better when its hosted inside running a better tensorflow model.

[Luis Montes]

This is up and running on the main website:   https://www.heatsynclabs.org/live/

[Robert Bushman]

That is awesome!

On 6/28/25 15:10, Luis Montes wrote:
> This is up and running on the main website: https://

> www.heatsynclabs.org/live/ <https://www.heatsynclabs.org/live/>
>
>

[Eric Ose]

Jeff this was actually proposal. A board member stated that this did not require a proposal and they left it off the HYH agenda. See the screenshot of that message.

Eric Ose

Robot Ambassador

Sometimes cool things just happen, but usually you have to plan them.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "HeatSync Labs" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to heatsynclabs...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/8ffdd5b7-ddc1-4e4c-83b1-077889e8bf45%40traxel.com.

[Jeff Sittler]

Eric, you are correct and I stand corrected.

Now, when/where was it voted on and approved?  Just asking so we have the proper documentation in place.

[Eric Ose]

The cameras were installed without a vote and now have been modified without a vote. Don't blame me. I wasn't the one who left it off the HYH agenda and said it didn't need a vote. Also you can't exactly blame Luis since he did make a proposal that was disregarded.

The premise that it needs a vote seems to be your idea. It was clearly stated over a decade ago that a vote wasn't required to change it especially since no vote was required to install it.

Eric Ose
Robot Ambassador

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/71fe3d3f-12ec-499c-9fd6-54b470285f69n%40googlegroups.com.

[Mike Wolfson]

Jeff,

I tried to do this using a proposal, and when I did that, you stood in front of the HYH membership and called me a liar in front of everyone.  Then Nate stood up and said the same thing (you both said that I made up the fact that 2 different people asked me to make my proposal, which was true). You both said I was making that up and you both bullied me that night.  When I told you this that night to your face, you doubled down on that (instead of being a man and taking the opportunity to apologize).

I cancelled that membership that night because of you. You absolutely have not handled this camera situation in an empathetic manner.   

-Mike

[Jeff Sittler]

Eric, 

"Don't blame me"

How am I blaming you?  At no point in my message, did I imply any sort of blame.  I simply was asking for documentation of when the vote happened.  

"The premise that it needs a vote seems to be your idea"

Again, how is this my idea?  Is it not stated that a proposal must be discussed and voted on at HYH, unless said proposal is removed?  That is not me, that is how proposals have always happened.

"It was clearly stated over a decade ago that a vote wasn't required to change it especially since no vote was required to install it."

What are you trying to say/imply with that statement? So a decision a decade ago somehow applies to a proposal that was made recently?

Mike,

"I tried to do this using a proposal, and when I did that, you stood in front of the HYH membership and called me a liar in front of everyone."  

No sir. I never called you a liar.  You approached me after the meeting and got in my face and accused me of calling a liar.  

I am not going to re-hash your behavior nor engage with you any further on this topic.

[Robert Bushman]

On 6/29/25 17:09, Mike Wolfson wrote:
> in an empathetic manner.
>
> -Mike

Empathy versus self-regard is the core of what makes Do-ocracy work when
it does, and fail when it doesn't.

What Luis did was the epitome of hacking and empathy. He heard the
authentic concerns of the people and found a badass technical voodoo way
to address those concerns.

It went via do-ocracy when one of the empathetic board members
recognized it as a pro-social project. If the membership at large had
complained during the long, publicly discussed, development of this
solution; past experience gives me 100% confidence that Luis would have
apologized and worked to address the concerns.

That is how you do do-ocracy and get people to reinforce their belief
that you're awesome. 10/10, no notes.

If there were a do-ocracy attempt that did not consider people's
concerns; and if the do-er was angrily resistant to negative feedback;
and if the do-er attempted rules-lawyering to prevent it from being
remediated; it would not be received well.

I cannot believe that people find the above surprising. It strains my
credulity to the breaking point. I suspect the protestations are
intentionally obtuse rhetoric and part of a pattern of behavior that is
not conducive to a healthy social system.

Without more empathatic people and fewer abuses of good faith, HSL is
going to die.

Thank you, Luis, Mike, and Eric - and so many others including those who
don't come around anymore for these very reasons - for fighting the good
fight.

Bob

[Mike Wolfson]

Bob, you know that a community is all about the people, and most importantly serving those people in an empathetic way. I appreciate you and the world is a better place because you are in it.

Luis, I can't praise you enough for solving this problem. I believe it was a legal liability to be showing people's pictures on the public Internet without their consent. Besides, the fact that many people in the community were uncomfortable with that, enough that they didn't come to the lab. I appreciate your service to the community. 

Find more opportunities to be nice to people and less opportunities to criticize, and HSL will be more successful. 

Peace and love to you all. Even the haters. 

Mike W

***************************************************************************
Mike Wolfson                                                      Phoenix, AZ, USA

***************************************************************************

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "HeatSync Labs" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/heatsynclabs/KxNT_XpLJQI/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to heatsynclabs...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/ed210c2d-5820-4d73-a8d5-f4cc0f79892a%40traxel.com.

[Eric Ose]

Jeff,

"It was clearly stated over a decade ago that a vote wasn't required to change it especially since no vote was required to install it." (Eric/me)

"What are you trying to say/imply with that statement? So a decision a decade ago somehow applies to a proposal that was made recently?" (Jeff)

"It didn't take an HYH vote to put them up, it wont take one to change the way they work. Do-ocracy.  

Isn't this like everything else?

If another doer wants to stop or undo it, they can put out a proposal to settle the conflict." (Will Bradley)

See this thread;

https://groups.google.com/g/heatsynclabs/c/ZaiBVktbQjI/m/vjQ76mHjA-UJ

Eric Ose
Robot Ambassador

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "HeatSync Labs" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to heatsynclabs...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAGBn4GJoiYUmj89ARFybDnxYs3uLCg_Tqs%2BL_aKPJvN66M-Tvw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Eric Ose]

For added context Will is the person who installed the cameras and he said a proposal isn't required to change how they work.

Eric Ose
Robot Ambassador

[Eric Ose]

Luis,

The link and live image on the homepage aren't there. Might be good to get those back on there. Without them it looks like it was removed completely. 

The live page is still up. https://www.heatsynclabs.org/live/

And here is a photo from when people were in the lab it chose a matrix style text scrolling down the blocked areas where people are noticed.

Eric Ose
Robot Ambassador

[Luis Montes]

I'll do a mini version of the matrix thing for the front page

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAEk_gvBq-Da65LHvk6N5eVUNt8nXZZnkDeBJNV5CN2ZcP3Fp6A%40mail.gmail.com.

[Eric Ose]

Darrell,

This page still exists; https://www.heatsynclabs.org/live/

You can see where I have asked Luis to address the fact that the link is missing from the homepage.

Yes the cameras are no longer showing the live lab. This thread discusses the specifics to what changes were made.

My post is an outdated thread and this is where we can talk about what is specifically set up currently.

Eric Ose

Robot Ambassador

Sometimes cool things just happen, but usually you have to plan them.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CA%2B%3DVRdCOe%3D83OpEWMyiFDfGFy7AuN0x_02-BP8LHE6Qfw2STAw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Luis Montes]

updated the home page to have the mini view of the camera with the AI matrix effect thing.  Links to the full live page again.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAEk_gvC9rYrkz6pcfx8CJXhxAD6WnpxDkTR-rY0dzi55Edoo4A%40mail.gmail.com.

[Luis Montes]

Also, just so everyone is clear:

We have several closed circuit security cameras at the lab.  The video is recorded and footage is retrievable if there's any need to.
The security cameras are completely separate from the web cams we've used for the website.

[Eric Ose]

Nate,

This is the thread where you should discuss the current state of the live cameras. Though based on your comments on the outdated thread there were no questions.

Luis has detailed what his projects entailed here. If you did have questions this is where you should post them. 

Eric Ose

Robot Ambassador

Sometimes cool things just happen, but usually you have to plan them.

[Luis Montes]

I'm not able to work on this for a couple of weeks, but I'd be happy to work on some updates after that.

What does everyone think about keeping live cams directly on top of 3D printing and the big laser cutter bed?  Might get someone's hands on the live feed, but shouldn't be getting any faces.

Also, the AI stuff is under-reporting the amount of people in the lab.  It's not very good at getting people on the sides in the front half of the lab.  How about instead we have one in each corner of the front to make sure to pick up the sides?  Maybe do the same in the back?

-Luis

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAEk_gvCioX7-rPxbdVH%3D3xwuZVJn_H1m%3DruFmJVn%3D03K9ih37Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[SM Newstead]

I know it's too late now, but all of you saying it was solved are wrong. I made my desire known when I broke the tie to retain the cameras. Isn't it ironic that you think you're protecting people like me and choosing the solution for me but I articulated at a public meeting, citing my experience of sexual harassment, including with the cameras, why I needed to see who was at the lab on camera. Being harassed with the cameras is the far lesser evil. Now you've put bullies and perverts behind blocks without ever asking the vulnerable at HeatSync what they needed to feel safe. Your "do-ocracy" has disenfranchised women because none of you cared about our voices in the first place.

That being said, I'm not going to rage-quit, withhold my support or stop helping HeatSync. Life sucks and not everyone can be pleased. In fact, the only ones to be pleased are those who complain the loudest. 

Making this a proposal would have been better. Taking the word of a brand new board member trying his hardest so you can get your way is also not cool. You all want to feel like you've made things safer, but now you are compelling me to walk into a den of lions. Next time, if you want to "protect women," send out a survey to them. 

[SM Newstead]

You can never be inclusive without asking each person, who you are trying to include, what they need. In matters of safety, it should be private, not public. Most people will never humiliate themselves to talk about harassment and discrimination and even physical violence, publicly. 

This lacked empathy. This did not ask for concerns in a sensitive manner. You wonder why we have so few female participants over the years? Ask them why!!! 

Your responses, especially Bob's, feels very rigid in declaring this to be the right thing categorically without any room for improvement, so certain of your collective "rightness."

It is deeply misogynistic to protect the female population without asking them and empowering them to participate in their own protection, as though they are incompetent and not worth asking. 

This is just an asexual, female, disabled narrative. I don't even want to know what other forms of discrimination were placed behind blocks. But historically, just at HeatSync, it's been transphobia, homophobia, racism, classism, religious discrimination and other types of ableism,  especially against the neurodivergent. I'm guessing none of those relevant people were asked either. 

This is not the solution. The solution is getting rid of do-ocracy and being empathetic by asking people what they want and need. Maybe with a proposal??? And a private survey. 

You all made our (the board) lives hell for making questionable choices without community input, which we quickly changed. I guess that only applies if you don't like it. If it's cool tech man white savior stuff, then it's fine to be a hypocrite. We're here because a white heteronormative man didn't want cameras, really. Once again, the privileged members of a society get what they want without asking the disadvantaged. 

Also, only one person asked me about the cameras. I didn't know him well at the time, so I didn't open up about something embarrassing to me,  but Arnob wanted my perspective on the cameras and I respect that. Anyone else could have also simply asked. 

[Eric Ose]

Shaundra,

"You can never be inclusive without asking each person..."

Luis posted this proposal and nobody had anything to much to say about it. It is not his fault that people waited until after it proposals were left off of the HYH agenda and declared to not required a proposal to bring up criticisms. He put a lot of work into this in fact and was under the impression that nobody had negative things to say based on the lack of negative responses here in this thread.

You have an interesting perspective on giving people choices. I think there is an asymmetrical disadvantage at play when you require everyone to be posted live online. Sure it makes it easy to avoid the lab if certain people are there. You could still avoid those people if you arrive and then realize they are at the lab. It is always a choice you have to leave. It wasn't a choice to not have images posted online and I think that is a bigger problem.

Eric Ose

Robot Ambassador

Sometimes cool things just happen, but usually you have to plan them.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/bb1300f4-bb11-4baa-a673-92c20506cc18n%40googlegroups.com.

[Eric Ose]

I would love to see more comments from others.

I'm definitely in favor of increasing the cameras that show the matrix style person here feature.

I'm also in favor of having cameras showing the tools in use. Though I would prefer it they were optional. We could move to a model like Onshape where you can use whatever tools you want for free, but you have to share your files and show what you are working on. That seems weird if we don't also have a paid tier that gives people an option for privacy.

The matrix display is awesome. I think more people need to tell you this and encourage your project.

Eric Ose

Robot Ambassador

Sometimes cool things just happen, but usually you have to plan them.

[SM Newstead]

I'm not too fussed either way, and it won't change my participation. Though I will say driving for an hour each way with a terminal illness to just leave because of misogyny and disability discrimination that previous boards have not dealt with is ridiculous. I made my stance clear at a public meeting and since I thought this was a proposal, I would have voted no. I have to walk into the den of lions to determine that lions are indeed there, thus creating an additional problem. 

I agree that leaving it off hyh agenda was a mistake, but people jumped on that opportunity to get their way. I'm just saying all the rhetoric about protecting people seems a little dramatic without even asking those people. Again, it should be a PRIVATE survey, not public like the Junior fiasco, which was deeply humiliating. 

I think living in a surveillance society is just something we deal with at this point, though I respect that it makes you and others uncomfortable. I do think we can discuss these things without all the rage-quitting and tantrum-throwing. It's okay to disagree with one another, after all. 

I don't care if it's on the website, but I should have the right to see who is in the building. I have been miserable trying to help HeatSync on the board for a fifth of my life and I don't deserve any safety at all? But notice I won't resign or make HSL suffer because I don't like it. 

Don't be surprised when other people vote with their feet and not their mouths. Do-ocracy has always been an excuse to trample on the rights of others. Do-ocracy is the biggest cause, also, of undo-ocracy. Communication is the issue, as always, and we all could have done better in this situation. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAEk_gvAoiOj5GLwS50xL3_zb-OQSzhpcJ89PmqvK2ySm%2BD6%3D5Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[Eric Ose]

Shaundra,

You haven't said anything about Luis additional suggestions. This is a time to talk about those as well.

If the prime benefit for you is in avoiding the lab it is less clear how that drives engagement.

It is a bummer that you have an hour drive to get to the lab. The benefit of the cameras seems pretty limited with such a long drive. By the time you get to the lab people you want to avoid may have arrived or they could have been off camera.

You have a lot to say which I find confusing. When this topic was brought up for discussion you said nothing and are now are saying that communication is the issue. Luis didn't leave anyone out. He specifically asked for feedback and he has more features that he is discussing. If anyone is too shy to post their thoughts here they can reach out to him personally rather than wait for more changes to happen then make public complaints.

Eric Ose

Robot Ambassador

Sometimes cool things just happen, but usually you have to plan them.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAGmYP1QecK%3Dfje1XRyz1E-2qo%2B%2B8pXY895hFhpCU%3D_dHmh54Mg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Brett Neese]

Admittedly I’m new here but I guess my question, also as a marginalized person, is if we have (private) security cameras then why are these people even allowed in the space?

It’s true we already live in a surveillance society but as a marginalized person I’ll add that personally, in today’s climate, I’m much more worried about the gang of secret police and their volunteer militia buddies that are going around kidnapping and bullying marginalized folx. I don’t think it’s wise to give them public access to high-res footage of what really ought to be a safe space for all.

Brett

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAGmYP1QecK%3Dfje1XRyz1E-2qo%2B%2B8pXY895hFhpCU%3D_dHmh54Mg%40mail.gmail.com.

[SM Newstead]

Fair points. As I said, I thought this would be a proposal instead of just doing it. That would be the communication. I'm not vehemently opposed, but I don't like everyone saying it was for sexual harassment without asking those people specifically. Just say it's for all your comfort, which is fine, and get the community to vote on it, which is also fine. Do whatever. I don't care enough. I'm glad some people feel better, truly. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CALOuO4MuSQr-hB23uptj0821gc8Y%2Ba27VA9-0U3CZKTqhBzvvg%40mail.gmail.com.