Leather in the laser cutter?
Ryan Mcdermott
If we put leather in the laser cutter, what do we need to do to make sure no dangerous gasses are released? I was planning on stopping over at SAS fabric in tempe and seeing what I could find…but if anybody has recommendations on what to avoid, that would be great.
Thanks,
Ryan
Cameron K.
Vegetable tanned leather is safe--as are tawed leather, and rawhide--but "chrome-tanned" leather releases toxic chemicals (most modern leather is this). (if the leather is any non-natural colour, it is almost-definitely-probably not safe).
tl;dr: (I think) Keep the laser atmosphere dry (dehumidifier/desiccator?) keep oxygen out of it (run dry nitrogen into the working area?), keep exposure times low (Cl corrosion mechanisms are generally pretty slow, and require long-term exposure), make sure everything is properly ventilated
(disclaimer: I know nothing about laser-etchers and have never even touched one in my life. This is all just the basic materials science/chemistry)
Can anyone tell me, what power is the laser (when its working optimally at max power of course), and what kind of filtration/ventilation system does the laser have? (I couldn't find this info on the wiki) Also, what are laser components that would be exposed to gas made of? Stainless steel (304-nice or 416-cheap?), non-stainless steels (this is important), aluminum, titanium?
Funny enough, I was actually doing some research this morning to see how you could avoid Cl gas corrosion in the laser... (I'm interested in etching PVC Moleskine notebooks) Everything I know about material corrosion through school says that DRY Cl2 gas not normally corrosive , but there is always pesky water in the atmosphere to react with...
Most modern leathers are Cromium-tanned, which will release Sulfur and Chromium compounds when burned. These are toxic/cancer-causing, but chromium is not generally bad for the laser (unless I missed something! let me know.)
Sulfur however will react with the already-existing sulfur component in cheap 416 stainless steel, corroding it, but not with 304 (10/18 stainless) or non-stainless steels. Reaction with aluminum is dependent on the alloy, but generally pretty slow in atmosphere at room temperature (because of the surface Al2O3 passivation layer). Titanium will generally not be harmed by Sulfur or sulfur oxidizing compounds.
In stainless steel, there is a component of Cr in the alloy that forms a protective CrO layer on the surface of the steel. This CrO layer protects the Fe from rusting since CrO won't react with water, cut the CrO will react with Cl to form CrO2Cl, which is bad.
Titanium will react with Cl gas to form TiCl4, which then reacts violently with moisture in the air for form HCl and TiO2... (I think titanium is okay in dry Cl gas up to 500C, but I don't exactly trust wikipedia for reaction potentials and couldn't get the CRC handbook without going to the library.)
Oh my, this is approaching two pages... I'll just stop here and hope I didn't miss anything...
Cameron Kopas
Sources:
(Stainless Steel 304) http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=965
(stainless Steel 416) http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=971
(leather tanning chemistry) nzic.org.nz/ChemProcesses/animal/5C.pdf
(Metals and corrosion resistance table) http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-corrosion-resistance-d_491.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35220#Toxicity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphthalene#Health_effects
(Handbook of Corrosion Chemistry google book search for Cl+Cr) http://books.google.com/books?id=dxsAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=CrO+Chlorine&source=bl&ots=6s7srNtz8Z&sig=4WpRvvqgxWotWZhdBqcMvs22X_E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gAqPT-PCI6iiiQLdoZidAw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=CrO%20Chlorine&f=false
(Cl2 Gas Corrosion and outgassing of Aluminum surfaces) http://avspublications.org/jvsta/resource/1/jvtad6/v11/i4/p1708_s1?isAuthorized=no
(toxic leather tanning components) http://www.springerlink.com/content/d1m2q25l70235634/
(detection of pollutants in chrome tanned leather...) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20556649
(corrosion engineering from HCl and Cl2) http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=274035
Will Bradley
I think the immediate focusing nozzle is anodized aluminum, with probably a mix of steels or irons in the rest of the assembly. For example I'd expect the finely machined rails to be different than the cheap extruded body.
There is an air assist which blows fumes and debris away from the immediate area, but the ventilation isn't very powerful. Over time it will evacuate fumes, but clouds can hang around for maybe a minute.
Ryan
But it sounds like leather in the laser is probably a no-no, unless it
is perhaps "raw", untreated leather?
(Moheeb are you in here? I think you've done some leather before,
yeah? Thoughts?)
Cameron K. wrote:
> First, make sure its real leather, fake leather is often PVC (they
> aren't always labeled at SAS...) which will release Chlorine gas into
> the laser when cut/etched. I don't know anything about the filtration
> system on the laser, but you need to get chlorine gas away from the
> laser as quickly as possible to prevent corrosion (see way too much
> more on corrosion below).
>
> Vegetable tanned leather is safe--as are tawed leather, and
> rawhide--but "chrome-tanned" leather releases toxic chemicals (most
> modern leather is this). (if the leather is any non-natural colour, it
> is almost-definitely-probably not safe).
>
> _tl;dr: (I think) Keep the laser atmosphere dry
> (dehumidifier/desiccator?) keep oxygen out of it (run dry nitrogen
> into the working area?), keep exposure times low (Cl corrosion
> mechanisms are generally pretty slow, and require long-term exposure),
> make sure everything is properly ventilated_
>
> (disclaimer: I know nothing about laser-etchers and have never even
> touched one in my life. This is all just the basic materials
> science/chemistry)
>
> Can anyone tell me, what power is the laser (when its working
> optimally at max power of course), and what kind of
> filtration/ventilation system does the laser have? (I couldn't find
> this info on the wiki) Also, what are laser components that would be
> exposed to gas made of? Stainless steel (304-nice or 416-cheap?),
> non-stainless steels (this is important), aluminum, titanium?
>
>
> Funny enough, I was actually doing some research this morning to see
> how you could avoid Cl gas corrosion in the laser... (I'm interested
> in etching PVC Moleskine notebooks) Everything I know about material
> corrosion through school says that _DRY_ Cl2 gas not normally
> <http://nzic.org.nz/ChemProcesses/animal/5C.pdf>
> (Metals and corrosion resistance table)
> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-corrosion-resistance-d_491.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning
> http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35220#Toxicity
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphthalene#Health_effects
> (Handbook of Corrosion Chemistry google book search for Cl+Cr)
> http://books.google.com/books?id=dxsAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=CrO+Chlorine&source=bl&ots=6s7srNtz8Z&sig=4WpRvvqgxWotWZhdBqcMvs22X_E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gAqPT-PCI6iiiQLdoZidAw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=CrO%20Chlorine&f=false
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=dxsAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=CrO+Chlorine&source=bl&ots=6s7srNtz8Z&sig=4WpRvvqgxWotWZhdBqcMvs22X_E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gAqPT-PCI6iiiQLdoZidAw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=CrO%20Chlorine&f=false>
> (Cl2 Gas Corrosion and outgassing of Aluminum surfaces)
> http://avspublications.org/jvsta/resource/1/jvtad6/v11/i4/p1708_s1?isAuthorized=no
> (toxic leather tanning components)
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/d1m2q25l70235634/
> (detection of pollutants in chrome tanned leather...)
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20556649
> (corrosion engineering from HCl and Cl2)
> http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=274035
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Ryan Mcdermott <blh...@gmail.com
> <mailto:blh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I remember something about this from the class, but don't recall
> the specific recommendation�
>
> If we put leather in the laser cutter, what do we need to do to
> make sure no dangerous gasses are released? I was planning on
> stopping over at SAS fabric in tempe and seeing what I could
> find�but if anybody has recommendations on what to avoid, that
Ryan
Whenever you're cutting acrylic, you can smell it, so not 100% of the
gasses are getting evacuated to the exterior of the building.
Will Bradley wrote:
>
> I think the immediate focusing nozzle is anodized aluminum, with
> probably a mix of steels or irons in the rest of the assembly. For
> example I'd expect the finely machined rails to be different than the
> cheap extruded body.
>
> There is an air assist which blows fumes and debris away from the
> immediate area, but the ventilation isn't very powerful. Over time it
> will evacuate fumes, but clouds can hang around for maybe a minute.
>
> On Apr 18, 2012 1:34 PM, "Cameron K." <came...@gmail.com
> <mailto:came...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> First, make sure its real leather, fake leather is often PVC (they
> aren't always labeled at SAS...) which will release Chlorine gas
> into the laser when cut/etched. I don't know anything about the
> filtration system on the laser, but you need to get chlorine gas
> away from the laser as quickly as possible to prevent corrosion
> (see way too much more on corrosion below).
>
> Vegetable tanned leather is safe--as are tawed leather, and
> rawhide--but "chrome-tanned" leather releases toxic chemicals
> (most modern leather is this). (if the leather is any non-natural
> colour, it is almost-definitely-probably not safe).
>
> _tl;dr: (I think) Keep the laser atmosphere dry
> (dehumidifier/desiccator?) keep oxygen out of it (run dry nitrogen
> into the working area?), keep exposure times low (Cl corrosion
> mechanisms are generally pretty slow, and require long-term
> exposure), make sure everything is properly ventilated_
>
> (disclaimer: I know nothing about laser-etchers and have never
> even touched one in my life. This is all just the basic materials
> science/chemistry)
>
> Can anyone tell me, what power is the laser (when its working
> optimally at max power of course), and what kind of
> filtration/ventilation system does the laser have? (I couldn't
> find this info on the wiki) Also, what are laser components that
> would be exposed to gas made of? Stainless steel (304-nice or
> 416-cheap?), non-stainless steels (this is important), aluminum,
> titanium?
>
>
> Funny enough, I was actually doing some research this morning to
> see how you could avoid Cl gas corrosion in the laser... (I'm
> interested in etching PVC Moleskine notebooks) Everything I know
> about material corrosion through school says that _DRY_ Cl2 gas
> <http://nzic.org.nz/ChemProcesses/animal/5C.pdf>
> (Metals and corrosion resistance table)
> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-corrosion-resistance-d_491.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning
> http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35220#Toxicity
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphthalene#Health_effects
> (Handbook of Corrosion Chemistry google book search for Cl+Cr)
> http://books.google.com/books?id=dxsAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=CrO+Chlorine&source=bl&ots=6s7srNtz8Z&sig=4WpRvvqgxWotWZhdBqcMvs22X_E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gAqPT-PCI6iiiQLdoZidAw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=CrO%20Chlorine&f=false
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=dxsAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=CrO+Chlorine&source=bl&ots=6s7srNtz8Z&sig=4WpRvvqgxWotWZhdBqcMvs22X_E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gAqPT-PCI6iiiQLdoZidAw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=CrO%20Chlorine&f=false>
> (Cl2 Gas Corrosion and outgassing of Aluminum surfaces)
> http://avspublications.org/jvsta/resource/1/jvtad6/v11/i4/p1708_s1?isAuthorized=no
> (toxic leather tanning components)
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/d1m2q25l70235634/
> (detection of pollutants in chrome tanned leather...)
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20556649
> (corrosion engineering from HCl and Cl2)
> http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=274035
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Ryan Mcdermott <blh...@gmail.com
> <mailto:blh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I remember something about this from the class, but don't
> recall the specific recommendation�
>
> If we put leather in the laser cutter, what do we need to do
> to make sure no dangerous gasses are released? I was planning
> on stopping over at SAS fabric in tempe and seeing what I
> could find�but if anybody has recommendations on what to
Squires Alchemy
It's Veggie Tanned or bust. The Sulfur Dichromate used in the machined
leather can and will become toxic if burned. But smal batch garment
leathers can be done without the dichromate- and Tandy does sell them
and then afterwards you can dye them yourself. Do not trust anything
from SAS to be otherwise. Without a chem. test you can check the
leather to see if it's got the compound visually- look at the cut edge
on darker spots of the leather (black is really good for this) if it
looks grey or white - then it has the compound.
-Bry
On Apr 18, 5:26 pm, Ryan <blh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's also worth noting that the ventilation system isn't perfect.
> Whenever you're cutting acrylic, you can smell it, so not 100% of the
> gasses are getting evacuated to the exterior of the building.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Will Bradley wrote:
>
> > I think the immediate focusing nozzle is anodized aluminum, with
> > probably a mix of steels or irons in the rest of the assembly. For
> > example I'd expect the finely machined rails to be different than the
> > cheap extruded body.
>
> > There is an air assist which blows fumes and debris away from the
> > immediate area, but the ventilation isn't very powerful. Over time it
> > will evacuate fumes, but clouds can hang around for maybe a minute.
>
> > nzic.org.nz/ChemProcesses/animal/5C.pdf
> > <http://nzic.org.nz/ChemProcesses/animal/5C.pdf>
> > (Metals and corrosion resistance table)
> > http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-corrosion-resistance-d_491.html
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning
> > http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35220#Toxicity
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphthalene#Health_effects
> > (Handbook of Corrosion Chemistry google book search for Cl+Cr)
> > <http://books.google.com/books?id=dxsAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=C...>
> > http://www.springerlink.com/content/d1m2q25l70235634/
> > (detection of pollutants in chrome tanned leather...)
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20556649
> > (corrosion engineering from HCl and Cl2)
> > http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=274035
>
> > On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Ryan Mcdermott <blh...@gmail.com
> > <mailto:blh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> > I remember something about this from the class, but don't
> > recall the specific recommendation
>
> > to make sure no dangerous gasses are released? I was planning
> > on stopping over at SAS fabric in tempe and seeing what I
Will Bradley
Ryan could you stick this in the wiki under the laser safety stuff? I thought all leather was good, but this is valuable stuff we shouldn't forget about. LMK if you need access or something.