Magnet Implants

[Dashi NywerKyng]

So I know this has been done, and have read upon the subject a few times. I have finally decided that I'm going to go through with it, I have found some of the neodymium disc magnets on ebay for a decent price, I still haven't decided if I'm going to shell out the money for an RFID implanter or if I'm going to just do it the other way... I have decided I'm going to go with the cheaper magnets and self coat them, which leads to other concerns obviously. I hear hot glue or another substance that you can buy online is generally used to "bioproof" the magnets, Unfortunately I am doing this on next to no budget so I will most likely stick to hot glue (unless someone else has another Idea) which I know is generally not how you want to do things but I've sized up the risks and have decided they are worth it. Blood and gushing wounds have never bothered me (my own even less then others) so I am not to worried about passing out or anything ( I will have someone present for the worse case scenario), and I plan on having it on video the whole time to kind of document the exp. I have heard that ICE of all things works extremely well if for the pain as long as you move quickly and efficiently so I plan on using that since local anestics are medical only and bring their own risks and anything as far as an overall pain killer can lead to fogness and brings greater risk.  I have done some consideration into placement I think I have settled onto my left pinkie finger since I am right handed, I plan on going in through the bottom left part of my finger when looking at it and migrating the magnet as far forward to the tip without it extruding as possible, since I am skinny and dont have much/any fat this is one of the areas that I'm less likely to hit a bone and still get the sensitivity of the magnet. I plan on putting in at least one "stitch" in towards the magnets new home to try and hold it in place so it doesn't migrate out and get rejected as the wound heals. Obviously I can not do this at the space for MANY reasons few that come to mind is legal, sterility and well just all the blood in general LMAO.

So my questions are this, has anyone at the space done this/hadit done, how do you do it, any thing you would of changed? Any other bioproofing methods that are realitivly inexpensive that I missed? Or any thoughts, questions, concerns?

Nothing I say is to be taken as a suggestion at doing this/having it done, nor do I view anything told to me as a suggestion to do so.

[Ben Humpherys]

I don't even know where to start with this. But for the love of all things holy don't go performing small surgery on yourself!!

1. Hot glue is not sterile. And there is a lot of variety in the chemistry in those. AND you would have a heck of a time getting the coating small enough to put anywhere, let alone in your pinky. 
2. Your hand is a sensitive place. It is FULL of nerve endings. This is very likely to be much more painful than you expect. And ice will only do so much. And even if you are successful getting it in, i would expect it to be chronically painful.
3. Getting it wrong would cost A LOT more than saving up enough to make sure it is done right. Should things go wrong you would probably end up in the emergency room. You may need it surgically removed again if it is placed wrong. If you damage nerve endings, that could require more surgery, and extensive physical therapy.

I believe jacob rosenthall has had a magnet implanted, he could point you in the direction of doing it properly. But if you cant afford to do it properly, don't do it at all.

[Will Bradley]

A person experienced in body modification is the only one you should trust to do this. Hot glue and self-implanting sounds like the worst idea ever and I wouldn't be surprised if you end up in the emergency room.

Normally I'd be all for it but you don't seem to have enough research or experience to avoid harming yourself.

[Dashi NywerKyng]

Hot glue itself is indeed not sterile but it is bioproof and a lot safer then one would think. Indeed the finger is VERY sensitive that is the very reason of placing it there because - the use of an mri machine the movements of the magnet are TINY and need sensitive nerves to pickup on the feeling. I know where I could go to get it done "professionally" but can not justify that for a multitude of reasons. Getting it wrong could indeed be an issue and I totally understand that, and it is a risk I have deemed... worth it? for the exp and usefulness of said implant. I am of legal age and have taken into consideration the risks from a variety of sources, including MANY people who have done it themselfs, I am not done researching "hence why I am here and asking questions" instead of already have done it. yes the way I am considering doing it seems... odd for lack of a better word but there has been many many people who have done it this way. biohack.me has been a GREAT tool for the research it is almost solely dedicated to implantation of the magnets. I may decide to go in on one of the group buys there and get some of the  parylene coated magnets, but I have not decided yet, I have done research, I have made a hypothesis, now I do a bit more research then its on to testing. I know that even for a hacking community this is a little "off the wall" but I figured the space is close to me and that it was reasonably the best chance of finding someone with exp of doing it.

[Jacob Rosenthal]

I have a magnet installed. Since we live in the same city as Steve fucking Haworth, it seems insane to cut yourself when you could just pay him a few hundred bucks for the whole painless perfect procedure. 

That being said, I'm actually for self experimentation under the guise of gentlemanly science -- as long as you make it science. So have hypotheses and keep data so we can all learn from your life threatening infections. IE fuck everyone else who says don't cut yourself. Life is for living.

As I said, Steve did my mod. He may also sell the encapsulated magnet itself. 

My procedure went incredibly easy. Professional modders aren't allowed to use any anesthetics, etc, so Steve swabbed my hand with gel, put it in a glove, and iced it until I stopped complaining. He then pulled the glove, poked me with a scalpel, made a single stich, put the magnet in, closed the stich and added a second. It was over in under a minute.

As for the results, I wouldn't give it up for anything, but mine isn't near as sensitive as many people claim theirs is. I can sense magnetic fields like noisy power adapters, fans and transformers, but not live wires or any other gadgets. We've had properly shielded devices in this country for 30 years so theres not a lot of leakage.

[Dashi NywerKyng]

on that note do you happen to know the size/rating of your magnet? and is it one of the discs or one of the cylinders that are gaining in popularity?

[Jacob Rosenthal]

I believe it was quoted at 50 gauss, disc I believe

-- 

Jacob Rosenthal

Sent with Sparrow

[Dashi NywerKyng]

honestly infection is #1 on my list of things that give me any hesitation and that is not because there hasn't been ways figured out to exclude that possibility pretty much completely, but I do work in an auto garage so I will/would have to take EXTRA procations to avoid oil and such like getting into/around the wound. And I actually know about Steve Haworth but $200 seems more then a bit steep to get it done and theres always the fact that you will have VERY limited options in what style/strength ect. of magnet is implanted. Any thoughts on the use of an RFID implanter for use with the magnet? It's still relatively new for this kind of procedure but has gained a lot of popularity.

[Jacob Rosenthal]

no thoughts, but haven't kept up on biohack in some time.

-- 

Jacob Rosenthal

Sent with Sparrow

[Dashi NywerKyng]

and I understand why you say it's not as sensitive for you if your correct on it only being 50 gauss because that is quite low compared to most of them 

[Will Bradley]

I feel like if hot glue produced an acceptable implant, we wouldn't be dicking around with "implant grade silicone"... though like Jacob said if you do it be sure to thoroughly document and publish your exact materials, procedure and outcome, over its lifetime. Curie only needed to die once for us to get the hint, self-modders might not be so lucky.

[Dashi NywerKyng]

Oh I plan to, and I understand the worry over the hot glue which is why I am considering doing part of a group buy even though I just need a few (one for personal implantation others for experiments) I have no doubt there will be plenty of grinder deaths but as long as the results are... worth the risk I don't see it stopping them.

[Will Bradley]

Research: lots of people love citing Lepht's quote on using hot glue or sugru for tons of things, but they all seem to be spectators, not people who would actually know. After some digging I found this from someone who got a sugru implant (which Google seems to think is superior to hot glue) and met with somewhat nasty results: http://discuss.biohack.me/discussion/222/magnetic-node-removal/p1

If you're looking at this from a price perspective, make sure you find out how much it'd cost to put it in, deal with any infections, and get it cut out. Then multiply that by the odds of failure, and there you've got your break-even amount. Lepht has been in and out of the hospital multiple times, and Scotland has much cheaper healthcare than Arizona.

[Dashi NywerKyng]

indeed she has and indeed scottland does, but she is also not the most.... stable of people to do this for lack of better word... vodka is more expensive and less effective then other sterilizers that you can pickup simply from the drug store. If I decide to get the RFID implanter I plan on getting on of the presterlized and sterilizing it again just to put myself at less risk. although I find it quite odd that he found a medical professional that was willing to do it and that it failed is suprising but he did say it was one of the first gen. operations with JUST the metal, I am looking at getting gold coated ones to extend? the bioproofing  if I don't go with the  Parylene-C coating 

[Dashi NywerKyng]

sorry thoughts all broken atm, I also noticed he said that his magnet was larger then what they use now, smaller magnet = less chance for you to hit and crack it open... at least thats how I would see it.

[Mike Bushroe]

On Saturday, September 15, 2012 5:30:58 PM UTC-7, Dashi NywerKyng wrote:

sorry thoughts all broken atm, I also noticed he said that his magnet was larger then what they use now, smaller magnet = less chance for you to hit and crack it open... at least thats how I would see it.

Dashi,
   I am envious of 'super powers' like sensing magnetic fields and poorly designed wall warts, but the basic idea makes me cringe.

  As for hot glue or sugru that sounds like a poor second. I would think that a long thin magnet would sense magnetic fields, bend and twist and effect the nerves around it more than a flat disk. But I must admit I don't know, especially if the disk is buried deep and flat against the bone. But if it is rice grain shaped, why not have Jasper or I embed it in a drawn glass tube? Borosilicate is very strong and I have more confidence on it remaining biosafe. And I think long and thin would be easier to implant, too. Still kind of scares me to think about it.

Mike

[Dashi NywerKyng]

Mike I actually thought about the idea of a glass tube made for it but it loses its magneticness? at 300F and that's for the high temp ones that you cant get so small and I do not know anything about glass in this context. Against the bone has been considered many times but the risk for disaster is HUGE even for a professional surgeon and that area is so sensitive even the smallest magnetic field on the smallest magnet could bring enough pain to drop someone to there knees. The general size of the at home ones are  0.125 inch Diameter x 0.0625 inch Thick and the cylinders (going off the most often suggested one) also they tend to be rejected more often if the body can not hold them in place, so smooth glass might still be better off coated with hot glue or silicone

[Will Bradley]

According to my limited knowledge, most properly done body mod implants are placed below the subcutaneous layer of skin (superficial fascia) but above the deep fascia. This reduces the likelihood of infections and improves healing, while still being deep enough not to reject easily. One of Steve's claims to fame is his dermal elevators designed for their ability to separate these two layers of skin precisely and create a pocket for implantation.

[Mike Bushroe]

Mia bad. I did not realize the several layers, but was only vaguely thinking in that direction. "Under" the skin but still free from the bone does sound more appropriate. I think the device in the center could be much cooler than the glass, but it would have to be done fast and take some practice. The microchips for dogs and cats I seem to remember they are going to ones with 'legs' or projections to grab onto tissue and prevent it from migrating, so I can see that coating a glass tube might be useful. But then you get back to what coating is as safe as the glass? To bad PTFE is so hard to work with or get to stick to something.

[Will Bradley]

Here are a number of articles and photos of the (bloody) procedure: http://news.bmezine.com/index.php?s=magnetic+fingers

[Dashi NywerKyng]

Better yet here is a video http://vimeo.com/23836862 this is not for the light hearted/stomached

[Will Bradley]

I forgot how much I hate needles! Now I know exactly how much I also hate scalpels!

[Dashi NywerKyng]

Haha glad I could help? The first time I watched that I got a bit squmish, not because of the blood or anything but because of the metal tweezers and how slooooooow he went but he had the benefit of pain killers lol

[Will Bradley]

His scalpel style reminds me of mangling frog torsos in middle school.

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Next up:

Theory: I wonder if flying kites near a power line is a bad idea?

Theory: great white sharks are misunderstood and actually very cuddly and friendly.

Theory: I should put my...fist...in that hornets nest and see what happens!

Theory: if you carry magic homeopathic powder in your pocket, you are immune to radiation poisoning!

Theory: if you flap your arms really fast you can fly.

Theory: I should cut my goddam finger apart and stick a hot glued goddam Magnet in the hole!

Dashi: you aren't some misunderstood genius doing SCIEEEEENNNNCCCCEEEEEEE!!!!  You a fucking idiot who is asking something this completely stupid.

Hi, the fucking 1800s called and theyre even laughing at you?

Is this a troll?  Are you really this daft?

[Ryan Mcdermott]

>he had the benefit of pain killers lol

LOL

[Ben Humpherys]

The problem with the "do it for science" argument here is that, to be very useful to anyone, your experiment would need to expand the borders of knowledge, and shed light on the best knowledge we have available. Certainly this would expand your own knowledge of self-modification, but at serious risk of very painful injury. I'm sure these body-modification forums have a lot of interesting ideas, probably many good ones even, but you don't know enough to be certain which are sound medical practice and which are just crackpot theories.

In my opinion you are not even qualified to evaluate the risks of this procedure without formal medical training.

[Dashi NywerKyng]

Wow Ryan going on the offensive? I am an idiot by no means. Now I will address your this isn't science comment "systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation." Grinding is just another form of hacking, there has already shown usefulness in implanted magnets. Like I said its not for everyone, but that does not mean you should insult people just because you do not understand or like something.

[Ryan Mcdermott]

>I am an idiot by no means.

That's true. Its not like you're asking about hot gluing a magnet,
cutting apart your finger, putting the magnet in the hole, and then
hoping biology turns a blind eye to you, and the last couple of
hundred years of medical science or anything like that.


Because THAT would be idiotic.

It would be doubly idiotic if you were doing this to save $200 on
having the guy who PIONEERED THE FUCKING PROCEDURE do it for you.

Triply idiotic if this guy lived within a bus ride of your house.

You're basically Tesla. The whole world is going to finally see your genius.

Seriously, though. Quantum wave generator, you in?

[Dashi NywerKyng]

Ben I can accept your point of view because you at least used sound reasoning, Ryan i'm surprised by you, your generally not one to make illogical personal attacks. I'm surprised in general this discussion got so heated in what I thought was a more logic based place

[Harry Meier]

Seconded. I've stayed out of this since Jacob's the local expert in magnet implants, but as the other guy most associated with human augmentation at HeatSync I've gotta say that was uncalled for. It's each of our inalienable right to fuck up our own lives and bodies as we see fit. 

Now that said, all of Ryan's points are valid. If your goal is to have a magnet implant at the end of the day then save up the $200 and be done with it. If you want to document the DIY alternatives and put yourself at grave risk in the process, then that's another avenue that's open to you. As long as you're only putting yourself at risk and not costing the taxpayers with an uninsured trip to the emergency room, then go for it.  

If you're going down that latter path, lust make sure it's not in vain. Research research and more research and document the living shit out of your experiences good or bad. 

Also This

[Jacob Rosenthal]

Thanks for the sanity Harry

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Jacob Rosenthal

Sent with Sparrow

[Will Bradley]

Why no? We shouldn't just be telling people not to hack...

On Sep 16, 2012 2:48 PM, "Ingrid Avendaño" <ingrida...@gmail.com> wrote:

No.

On Saturday, September 15, 2012 12:10:25 PM UTC-7, Dashi NywerKyng wrote:

So I know this has been done, and have read upon the subject a few times. I have finally decided that I'm going to go through with it, I have found some of the neodymium disc magnets on ebay for a decent price, I still haven't decided if I'm going to shell out the money for an RFID implanter or if I'm going to just do it the other way... I have decided I'm going to go with the cheaper magnets and self coat them, which leads to other concerns obviously. I hear hot glue or another substance that you can buy online is generally used to "bioproof" the magnets, Unfortunately I am doing this on next to no budget so I will most likely stick to hot glue (unless someone else has another Idea) which I know is generally not how you want to do things but I've sized up the risks and have decided they are worth it. Blood and gushing wounds have never bothered me (my own even less then others) so I am not to worried about passing out or anything ( I will have someone present for the worse case scenario), and I plan on having it on video the whole time to kind of document the exp. I have heard that ICE of all things works extremely well if for the pain as long as you move quickly and efficiently so I plan on using that since local anestics are medical only and bring their own risks and anything as far as an overall pain killer can lead to fogness and brings greater risk.  I have done some consideration into placement I think I have settled onto my left pinkie finger since I am right handed, I plan on going in through the bottom left part of my finger when looking at it and migrating the magnet as far forward to the tip without it extruding as possible, since I am skinny and dont have much/any fat this is one of the areas that I'm less likely to hit a bone and still get the sensitivity of the magnet. I plan on putting in at least one "stitch" in towards the magnets new home to try and hold it in place so it doesn't migrate out and get rejected as the wound heals. Obviously I can not do this at the space for MANY reasons few that come to mind is legal, sterility and well just all the blood in general LMAO.

So my questions are this, has anyone at the space done this/hadit done, how do you do it, any thing you would of changed? Any other bioproofing methods that are realitivly inexpensive that I missed? Or any thoughts, questions, concerns?

Nothing I say is to be taken as a suggestion at doing this/having it done, nor do I view anything told to me as a suggestion to do so.

[Ryan Rix]

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over every one being shouted down for not wanting
Dashi to put non-biosafe things in his body instead of listening to a fairly
large percentage of the, you know, actual experienced bodymod and augmenting
community.

There aren't a lot of people in that community so to just pretend that they're
opinions are, well, not important is incredibly dangerous. I hesitate to use
the word idiotic like my good friend Sometrix has in this thread but it's
definitely not a good idea to ignore the few people who know what they're
talking about or dismiss their concerns outright.

Hack on, but do leverage the resources you have.

r.

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Ryan Rix
http://rix.si

[admin]

Contact Steve Haworth (former owner of HTC)... You can find him on my friends list on FaceBook. HE is likely the person that FIRST put magnets as implantable body mods. So, if you want to have ANY sort of intelligent conversation about the subject, I'd contact him...
Jeremy
Sent from my iPhone

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[Ingrid Avendaño]

Fair point Will. Dashi you have my blessings if and only if you have someone film and take pictures. I happen to like gory NSFW videos and pictures. Keep in mind, you don't need my blessings and pursuing further research would probably be to your best advantage.

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[Ben Humpherys]

On Sunday, September 16, 2012 6:00:25 PM UTC-7, Will Bradley wrote:

Why no? We shouldn't just be telling people not to hack...

Hacking is good, but like every activity you must have forethought and be willing to accept the consequences of things go wrong. That's why you don't go picking locks that are in use, for example: if you break it, you have to deal with the problem of replacing the lock, and pay the cost of getting someone who ACTUALLY knows what they are doing (a locksmith) clean up your mess. You don't go practicing your new web development ideas on a production server, because if it breaks the site goes offline, and that can be very expensive depending on the site. Someone at GoDaddy made a mistake recently, and the downtime cost a great deal of money. With most hacking, if something goes wrong the consequence is usually the loss of a minor component or piece of equipment. The freedom to make mistakes is very important if we are to learn from them, and usually the price of those mistakes is relatively small.

But this is not picking a lock or programming. The risks associated with failure are a lot higher, and all involve personal injury. This is not an activity to undertake lightly. Knowing risks and being willing to accept the consequences of failure, but proceeding anyway is admirable. Discounting the risks and proceeding anyway is stupidity.

We should be telling people to hack responsibly. 

[Dashi NywerKyng]

I agree Ben and apologize to the group if it came across as me discounting the risks, I completely understand the risks including partial/complete loss of my finger, hand, ect, or even d.eath. My wife (who would/will be the one doing the video) and I have discussed this at length. We have come to the conclusion that when we take the necessary precautions that it is indeed, worth the risk FOR US, and understand that this would not be the case fir people with different historys/backgrounds. When it comes time I will go into the blow by blow of the preparations for the video.

[Ingrid Avendaño]

Okay, be safe and post a link later.  

[Kris Bahnsen]

After reading this, I just have to ask "why?"  You say its a good body-mod experiment, but I don't see where the science of it is.  You are attempting to use dated (and possibly dangerous) tech to do this.  What are you hoping to achieve by this, how do the benefits outweigh the risks?  (those are meant to be rhetorical, no need to answer for me)  I know I am just another person beating a dead horse on this, but even after reading this multiple times, I see no merit to what you are attempting.  You are indeed free to do what you wish with your body, but following in the footsteps of whats been done multiple generations of tech ago, that is likely dangerous, just seems absurd.  I agree with what Will said: "Curie only needed to die once for us to get the hint, self-modders might not be so lucky."

-Kris

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 1:57 AM, Ingrid Avendaño <ingrida...@gmail.com> wrote:

Okay, be safe and post a link later.  

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[Will Bradley]

I've changed my opinion slightly after more research; the jury seems to be out on hot glue implants, with the most prominent case study being a bit too reclusive to provide good data. Hot glue has a high melting point and is less granular than sugru, which has been reported as degrading and allowing rust to form. So there might be some scientific merit to publishing long-term details on the implant success.

I think the community agrees that a pro using the latest tech is preferred, but that if he's going to experiment at least make it scientific and not just a cost-saving mechanism, to be aware of the risks/costs, etc.

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[Dashi NywerKyng]

I plan to do this long term, scientific data would be published on a regular basis, with data of how its doing, if there's any change from last time, any incedents that have happened, and any experiments I have done with it (which has some promise since Google are coming out with their glasses and a few other instances.) I understand the lack of enthusiasm of using old tech to do so, but besides the fact that it's cheap it hasn't been very well documented and when diy body mods that actually can help your everyday person come out I think the cheapest way that "might" work needs to be documented wether it works or not because the way I see it is its better to find out in a hand vs by the spine or neck or any other high risk area. Also I see myself as a pretty good caidate because I have no problem cutting myself open, I have a high immune system, and I have a daily use for even such a simp le mod.

[Corey Renner]

I've got some accidental expertise in this area that probably won't influence anyone's opinions, but since we are pretending that this is science, I thought I'd share.  I implanted a small piece of tool steel in the pointer finger of my right hand about 10 years ago.  It's pretty similar in size to the magnets that we are talking about, it's a cube about .080" on a side (I saw it on an x-ray last year).  Rather than going to a Dr. or body mod expert, I accomplished the implantation by simply striking a piece of tool steel with a sledge hammer, shattering it and embedding a chunk in my finger.  I dug some of it out, but I had a feeling that I didn't get it all, so I kept a neodymium magnet taped to my finger over the wound location for few weeks thinking that maybe it would slowly migrate out over time.  It didn't.  I do not posses any of the superpowers that others have mentioned such as "detecting poorly made power-supplies".  My only superpower is a dull-ache that comes from the wound site for a few days a couple of times a year.  I have also gained the ability to speculate on whether  I'll ever develop a tumor from the cobalt content of the toolbit.  While I'm sure that many of you are envious of my tremendous abilities and the name that I've made for myself as a towering scientific figure, if I had it to do all over again, I can assure you that I would not.

One last point that will also probably fall on deaf ears is that I have a bunch of those neodymium magnets on my refrigerator, probably about 40 of them in various shapes and sizes.  Over the past 3 years or so, at least five have had the chrome-plating flake off and the magnet itself begin to crumble into a magnetic powder (mostly the small ones).  These are not magnets that are being abused or exposed to vibration, heat, etc. they are doing mundane things like holding Chinese take-out menus to the fridge in a climate-controlled house.  I have to think that having that neodymium powder enter your blood-stream is likely to be a very bad thing.  If I were even going to consider implanting something in myself for dubious or nonexistent benefit, I would take great pains to ensure that it was completely encapsulated inside something that was both inert and durable.

Good luck.

c

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Dashi NywerKyng <lilpla...@gmail.com> wrote:

I plan to do this long term, scientific data would be published on a regular basis, with data of how its doing, if there's any change from last time, any incedents that have happened, and any experiments I have done with it (which has some promise since Google are coming out with their glasses and a few other instances.) I understand the lack of enthusiasm of using old tech to do so, but besides the fact that it's cheap it hasn't been very well documented and when diy body mods that actually can help your everyday person come out I think the cheapest way that "might" work needs to be documented wether it works or not because the way I see it is its better to find out in a hand vs by the spine or neck or any other high risk area. Also I see myself as a pretty good caidate because I have no problem cutting myself open, I have a high immune system, and I have a daily use for even such a simp le mod.

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[admin]

Contact Steve Haworth (former owner of HTC)... You can find him on my friends list on FaceBook. HE is one of the first people that put magnets as implantable body mods. So, if you want to have ANY sort of intelligent conversation about the subject, I'd contact him. He knows all the potential problems and medical considerations like rejection and allergies. 

Good luck,

Jeremy
Sent from my iPhone

Sent from my iPhone

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[Ben Humpherys]

Agreed. If nothing else, at the very least talk the idea over with him.

[Jasper Nance]

We lost Dashi AND Brosenthaal to magnetic healing power tachyon over
exposure this spring... Turns out those healing tesla magnet bracelets
do work...

They flew too high

They tried to touch the sun

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Jasper Nance - KE7PHI
Creative and Scientific Imagery
http://www.nebarnix.com/

[Ryan Rix]

Steve's been mentioned like 6 times in this thread now...

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Ryan Rix
http://rix.si

[Dashi NywerKyng]

Talking to Steve is on my to do list thanks for mentioning it I forgot to poor that in my original post, and steel "implantation" is not the same and yes these magnets "flake" over time, it is from the oxygen that is one of the reasons for bio proofing them. Just because you do not like/understand something does not mean its not science.

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Who is "ad...@evergreensmarthome.com"?

Is this the Jeremy I know and love or some other Jeremy that I don't know?

-Notrix

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[admin]

This is Jeremy, I responded from my admin account not my personal account on my server... (whoops?)

Jeremy
Sent from my iPhone

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[Ryan Rix]

So the latter, I would guess, notrix.

[Kris Bahnsen]

"Just because you do not like/understand something does not mean its
not science."

Them's Flame War words good sir...

-Kris

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[Will Bradley]

Jeremy Nothum, not Leung

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[Dashi NywerKyng]

Those are not "flame words" it its the simple undisputable truth. Most peoples responses were ether offensive, derogatory, or simply wrong, I do want to thank the couple of people that gave logical or knowledgeable responses, no matter what your personal stance on the topic was. That was what kind of conversation I was hoping for and expecting, I am twice as impressed with the 2 or 3 people that kept an open mind I had hoped for that as well but didn't date expect it.

[Ben Humpherys]

Dashi,

Considering all the risks, I am struggling to see what could possibly be worth the potential pain. What are you hoping to gain from this? What are your objectives? 

Maybe it would be more constructive if we could suggest safer ways to achieve what you hope to accomplish?

[Dashi NywerKyng]

My goals include, seeing if hot glue or something similar that's low cost is an effective long term diy bioseal when the proper steps are taken, if diy modifications are a viable idea to your average person (I have one ear priced and no tattoos) I want to see if such implantations could offer a day to day benefit in a professional field (i'm a mechanic so the ability to know if a wire is hot or cold instantly can save A LOT of time). There are very few cases of someone using hot glue as a bio block and of those there I'd little to no documentation. There is some experiments I'd like to do but fir the most part those could be reproduced by gloves

[Mike Bushroe]

I understand all the doubts and questions about why, but perhaps that is not our choice to make. Judging by what I have seen in books, magazines, and on the interweb, people have been doing body-mods, some much more extreme than this, for a very long time. And most seem to have no justification other than some questionable form of aesthetics. Yet people keep doing it anyway, despite the pain, risks, permanent disfigurement. I can only conclude that they must fell driven to do this by some inner force and normal logic and values do not apply.

   I personally find the thought of this procedure very unsettling, and the idea of cutting into the most nerve dense portion of the finger, even the pinky finger, really make me cringe. And the thought of using hot glue to keep heavy metal oxides out of my blood is even more chilling. Thinking about it, I would not want to have any part of it, support it in any way, or be near by when it was done. Even though I consider it so unsettling, I have this strange eagerness to make a glass ampule to surround the magnet and make it safer.

 Confusing, emotions are!

   I am afraid I do not have many words to support what you are doing, but I would suggest continuing to look at coating solutions other than hot glue. One would be to electroplate a more bio-safe metal on top of the protective nickle coating on the ceramic magnets. Gold is always good, and according to this web page:

http://www.americanelements.com/Bio-Medical.html

Titanium, both pure and in several alloys is used commonly by the ton being implanted into people by the medical profession all the time. I am confident that we could setup a gold electroplate system. Titanium seems to be an entirely different matter. Stainless steel is also mentioned, but I am not sure how to electroplate an alloy and keep the constituent metals from separating and plating at different rates or in segregated blobs.

[Dashi NywerKyng]

These are not ceramic magnets and if I do not get one of the precoated ones I plan on using one of the gold ones.but gold is not completely bioproof from my understanding and since it is such a soft metal it could be easily be damaged (yes hot glue is soft but it is also elastic)I would be Very interested if we could indeed figure our sine way of glassing it but have stated my concerns on that previously.

[Austin Appel]

On 9/17/2012 4:50 PM, Dashi NywerKyng wrote:
> i'm a mechanic so the ability to know if a wire is hot or cold instantly can save A LOT of time)

One would think a mechanic would care about their fingers more.

Also, there are $10-$20 tools that you can buy that will perform this
task for you quite well.

[Tony Brenke]

I am not understanding how you think a magnet will let you know if a wire is powered or not.

a straight wire does not provide enough of a magnetic field to move or jump a magnet running on DC.

even an AC wire will have a very limited affect not being coiled.

can you enlighten me on how you plan for this to operate?

Tony

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[Will Bradley]

:) http://lmgtfy.com/?q=magnet+implant+sense+current

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[Dashi NywerKyng]

Well that's it, these are very sensitive magnets and people have reported being able to tell the difference that's one of the things I plan on testing

[Mike Bushroe]

Measuring the repulsive force between two parallel bus bars running DC current in the same direction was one of the labs in my undergrad physics program. But you correct, in general power lines are mostly E, with very little M. And little is not the same as none.

Mike

[Robert Bell]

"Dermabond the scientific answer to stupidity" 

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[Dashi NywerKyng]

How is that relevant to the current conversation?

[Tony Brenke]

in that case I would assume that he is going to implant this magnet in the finger tip to get the most sensitivity out of it, otherwise why bother.

now bus bars running current may have enough current to make a field that can be felt.  I was under the asumption that he would be using this in the 12V car area as someone stated he was a machinic.

taking that into consideration there would be limited areas where this would be effective as the current is very low in most areas and the proximity to the ferrous metal of the car will shape the fields on the high current detectable lines.

it seams that it would be of limited usefullness.

but I would recoment the coating with Parylene as this was used to coat the acoustic transmitters we produced at my prior job.

they were implanted in Juvenal salmon to track there mortality over the dams on the Columbia river in WA.

http://www.atstrack.com/pdfs/fisheries_3501_jsats_article.pdf

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[Robert Bell]

Dermabond is a medical adhesive often used as an alternative to stitches. The topic of this discussion is significantly dedicated to glue-like alternatives for sealing punctured skin. The title of the video facilitates an apt and concise representation of my sentiments.

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Dashi NywerKyng <lilpla...@gmail.com> wrote:

How is that relevant to the current conversation?

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[Dashi NywerKyng]

Ok thank you Robert can't watch it ATM since i'm at work hence the confusion

[Dashi NywerKyng]

From what I read it would be a nice addition to a stitch but unfortunately not a replacement since it needs a deep tissue stitch to hold the magnet as close tothe end of the laceration. But I think it'll make a great addition to keep it as gem free as possible. I greatly appreciate you bringing that to my attention.

[Will Bradley]

More data points for the curious. The current implant design seems to have been pioneered by ASU's own Todd Huffman here in Phoenix: http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mods/news/2006/06/71087?currentPage=all

Quinn got a 30-40 durometer silicone implant from Steve, but like others of that batch the silicone failed and she was left with a black spot, magnet fragments, and a few trips to the doctor. Presumably Jacob has Steve's newer 70 durometer implants; he reports some reduced magnetism/sensation over time but nothing catastrophic.

I managed to ask Quinn what she thought of the hot glue idea and she said "it's a terrible, terrible, really awful idea. I mean, Jesus Christ on a pogo stick NO." so take that as another data point if you will. My impression of Steve and others behind these implants is one of intense professionalism despite the fringe nature of their work; I'd heavily research bio-compatibility of these things before wasting Steve's time, he's hard to get ahold of for a reason. 

For starters, Wikipedia says hot glue is made of Ethylene-vinyl acetate, hydrogenated tackifying resins, and paraffin wax. Although EVA may be implantable, those additives (which undoubtedly vary between manufacturers and batches) may not be. I can't imagine it's very hard to find small amounts of medical-grade implantable plastics, so if you're coming at this from a science angle you'd do yourself a favor by doing adequate research into all the different materials in use for the implant industry.

I just ran into a university study where they injected certain polymers into rats and got 100% mortality within 4 weeks, in an attempt to improve on existing pacemaker coatings that break down in the body too quickly. Very smart people are killing rats on accident, so do your homework.

[Will Bradley]

Forgot to mention the tons of other possible chemicals used for hot glue; judging from hot glue MSDS sheets, you're very unlikely to know what type of plastic you're getting, and even less likely to find out what additives are used. What might work in Scotland has almost no bearing on it working in Arizona, especially over a couple years and different glue manufacturers. 

[Ben Humpherys]

I found this page about what kinds of jewelry are safe to put in your body through piercings:  http://www.piercingexp.com/info/info-jewelry.html

Down in the section about acrylic being unsafe, it lists several chemicals that are also present in hot glue. 

"Acrylic has not been proven safe to wear for any extended period of time, especially in the mouth, mucous membrane, or genitals. The main problem with acrylic is that body temperature causes it to degrade and release monomer vapors, which are as toxic as carbon monoxide. Ethyl acetate in particular is a carcinogen. The ethyl acetate and methylmethacrylate monomers are the biggest problem with clear and or colored (Plexiglass or Lucite methylmethacrylate) acrylic resin jewelry. Even somewhat below body temperature (80° F or warmer), they are constantly released into the body. These chemicals are slightly toxic and known to cause damage to living tissue, as well as increasing the risk of skin cancer in that area." (emphasis and italics added)

I don't know how similar Ethylene-vinyl acetate and Ethyl acetate are, assuming they aren't just different names for the same thing. But how confident can you be that you aren't putting carcinogens into your body?

What are considered safe materials? "Polymers of polycarbonate, PTFE (Teflon), and elastomers such as silicone, are among many plastics used in human implants covered by ASTM." 

A few other articles I dug up on google:

Corrosion of metals in the body: http://www.ajronline.org/content/184/4/1219.full

Biomaterials used in orthopedics: http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/5/27/1137.full

Dental implant materials: http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijbm/2010/915327/

The chemistry of the human body is complicated. And there are many chemistry experiments that could be done to shed some light on how safe hot glue could be. You could test how it holds up in the slight alkalinity of the blood. You could introduce it to other chemicals present in the bloodstream. There are many catalysts and such in the blood stream as well. Will those react? That is another thing that could be tested with a test tube. And the advantage of doing all of these tests in a lab is you would be able to control your variables. "It hurts" is a lot less useful than "a noticeable amount of glue dissolved in an acid with the ph of human blood".

If you just went and stuck it in your arm, that doesn't give a great deal of concrete data. To be useful, you need to make hard measurements. You would need to do blood tests for various carcinogens and chemicals that may be released by the glue. If it starts to turn black in a few months, what is causing that discoloration? If it hurts, what could be causing that? How would you differentiate between pain caused by a poor implant, and pain caused by a failed coating? If it does seem to work well after a couple years, and considering how much variation there is in the chemical recipes of glue-sticks, how could you choose another hot glue you would be able to have any confidence in getting the same results from?

And for the actual procedure, how will you know how deep to cut? How will you know how to recognize the different skin layers, and be able to separate them to put the magnet in the right place? Are there nerves that could be avoided by proper placement? Are there prominent blood vessels you would be wise to avoid? 

In conclusion, this is a BAD experiment. It is very dangerous, it is poorly researched, and regardless of all of that would not be able to produce data that would be useful to anyone. 

[Dashi NywerKyng]

Thank you for the input Ben I do plan on doing, stress testing on any considered choosing before I shove it into my body, I have to say though glass.composites does keep coming into mind... Other then the heat, slickness, diy difficulty, obstacles it would be a rather ideal substance. I am looking for/considering other coatings so I am open to those hypothetical situations as well. Thank you for bringing up some of the stuff I forgot about or forgot to mention I use my phone on here most the time so I can't see half of what I typed so I trend to forget things