[Proposal] Replace the webcams with Nest cameras
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Ryan Mcdermott
Dec 16, 2017, 6:02:20 PM12/16/17
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3x Nest cameras. One for the main hall, one for the machine shop, one for the laser area.
Cameras are ~$170 each.
-Ryan
Max Sprinkle
Dec 16, 2017, 6:03:57 PM12/16/17
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I'm a fan of my Fostech cameras, and the PoE versions I have are only $50/ camera. they do not have pan and tilt capabilities though. My P/T camera is not PoE and was $80 IIRC.
~Max
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Nate Plamondon
Dec 16, 2017, 9:54:14 PM12/16/17
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What would $500 of Nest cameras get us that $150 of generics wouldn't?
(I'm all for replacing the cameras, btw; just want to make sure we're getting the right thing for the lab.)--
Nate Plamondon
Nate Plamondon
Ryan Mcdermott
Dec 16, 2017, 9:57:01 PM12/16/17
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Reliability.
Nate Plamondon
Dec 16, 2017, 10:02:48 PM12/16/17
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Fair, but also note that these cameras are at least five years old... maybe closer to seven.
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Nate Plamondon
Nate Plamondon
Ryan Mcdermott
Dec 16, 2017, 10:04:54 PM12/16/17
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Okay, so if we assume that these nest cameras will last at least as long as the foscams that we had before, we could amortize the cost over 84 months and bring the cost down to about $6/mo.
Will Bradley
Dec 17, 2017, 12:09:24 AM12/17/17
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Despite being the initial camera installer and so having a somewhat pro-camera bias, I want to pop in and mention that there are a number of people who would visit a hackerspace but do not want their presence to be visible on any sort of camera, especially internet-connected, surveillable, or stalker-able.
I personally like the Nest Camera as a piece of tech, but am shying away from IoT products that could be used to surveil. When I bought the first camera and first hooked it up to the website, I knew I was testing the limits of what was acceptable... but after eight years of operation I'm not sure if it was worth it. I know exactly how much benefit it's had (yay, sometimes seeing if my favorite member is around) and I've heard paranoia or serious concerns about it (from loudly proclaimed claims of internal snooping, to quietly mentioned fears about personal safety, to straight-up admitting that the cameras are means by which individuals are avoiding each other) but it's impossible to know how many people saw the cameras online or in-person and simply quietly avoided visiting. Go to DEFCON and say "yeah our hackerspace has webcams" and you might get a few googly-eyed expressions.
So camera or not, Nest or not, I think a frank community discussion about the goal (originally, to let people at home see whether the lab is hoppin' or not and decide to drive out or not... back when we were a closet at the back of Gangplank in South Chandler with like five members) and pros/cons (are there other ways of accomplishing that goal besides uncensored public webcams) might be worth having. Whether an individual's threat model involves exes, creeps, the fuzz, or the gubmint, an essential respect for individuals' control over their own data seems like something central to the idea of a hacker-space.
Foods for thought: the members db has an arp scanner (mac addresses / "PAMELA") built in, which could provide a single stat of "# of online devices greater than baseline". Cameras could be pixelated, blurred, or analyzed for movement / # of faces, with raw images never leaving the network. Card access use could be encouraged, and activate a members-only "who's checked in / # of people checked-in" view. Infrared / motion sensors could be used to anonymously gauge presence and activity level, not to mention being usable for traditional intrusion detection and automated light/HVAC control. Cell phone frequency spectrum analysis could be displayed as a curiosity, public art, and rough measure of body count.
I have no horse in this race... HSL should do what's best for HSL. This just seems like the appropriate time to make the concerns I've heard and thoughts I've had public, so that y'all can make a conscious choice about the project's future, before spending significant time or money on upkeep or expansion. Cheers and best wishes!
I personally like the Nest Camera as a piece of tech, but am shying away from IoT products that could be used to surveil. When I bought the first camera and first hooked it up to the website, I knew I was testing the limits of what was acceptable... but after eight years of operation I'm not sure if it was worth it. I know exactly how much benefit it's had (yay, sometimes seeing if my favorite member is around) and I've heard paranoia or serious concerns about it (from loudly proclaimed claims of internal snooping, to quietly mentioned fears about personal safety, to straight-up admitting that the cameras are means by which individuals are avoiding each other) but it's impossible to know how many people saw the cameras online or in-person and simply quietly avoided visiting. Go to DEFCON and say "yeah our hackerspace has webcams" and you might get a few googly-eyed expressions.
So camera or not, Nest or not, I think a frank community discussion about the goal (originally, to let people at home see whether the lab is hoppin' or not and decide to drive out or not... back when we were a closet at the back of Gangplank in South Chandler with like five members) and pros/cons (are there other ways of accomplishing that goal besides uncensored public webcams) might be worth having. Whether an individual's threat model involves exes, creeps, the fuzz, or the gubmint, an essential respect for individuals' control over their own data seems like something central to the idea of a hacker-space.
Foods for thought: the members db has an arp scanner (mac addresses / "PAMELA") built in, which could provide a single stat of "# of online devices greater than baseline". Cameras could be pixelated, blurred, or analyzed for movement / # of faces, with raw images never leaving the network. Card access use could be encouraged, and activate a members-only "who's checked in / # of people checked-in" view. Infrared / motion sensors could be used to anonymously gauge presence and activity level, not to mention being usable for traditional intrusion detection and automated light/HVAC control. Cell phone frequency spectrum analysis could be displayed as a curiosity, public art, and rough measure of body count.
I have no horse in this race... HSL should do what's best for HSL. This just seems like the appropriate time to make the concerns I've heard and thoughts I've had public, so that y'all can make a conscious choice about the project's future, before spending significant time or money on upkeep or expansion. Cheers and best wishes!
--
Nate Plamondon
Reliability.
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Nick Bensema
Dec 17, 2017, 12:20:41 AM12/17/17
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If we act quickly, there are some 480P cameras on http://meh.com/ for the next 22 hours or so, for about $20 each.
Robert Bell
Dec 17, 2017, 1:01:43 AM12/17/17
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The camera is fine.
Perhaps there's a squid proxy or similar causing a caching issue between camera and live.heatsynclabs.org
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cpr...@gmail.com
Dec 17, 2017, 8:17:14 PM12/17/17
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Honestly the camera above the 3d printer has not given a lick of trouble, and it gives a better image. I think Jasper got it?
On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 11:01:43 PM UTC-7, Robert Bell wrote:
The camera is fine.Perhaps there's a squid proxy or similar causing a caching issue between camera and live.heatsynclabs.org
On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Nick Bensema <nick.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
If we act quickly, there are some 480P cameras on http://meh.com/ for the next 22 hours or so, for about $20 each.
On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 4:02:20 PM UTC-7, Ryan McDermott wrote:3x Nest cameras. One for the main hall, one for the machine shop, one for the laser area.Cameras are ~$170 each.-Ryan
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Robert Bell
Dec 18, 2017, 3:25:08 PM12/18/17
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The camera was fine except for a glitchy resetting netmask. (批准的消息)
It has been replaced with similar model of consistent image since installation. (批准的消息)
Adjacently installed for t̶a̶r̶g̶e̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ (没有) stereo disparity analysis is perhaps exactly another same camera
Milton Williams
Dec 28, 2017, 10:59:58 AM12/28/17
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I'm just bumping this so it is easier to find.
Robert Bells work on the current cameras is awesome. It is weird how they are 3 different resolutions (but this does not matter at all).
On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 1:25:08 PM UTC-7, Robert Bell wrote:
The camera was fine except for a glitchy resetting netmask. (批准的消息)It has been replaced with similar model of consistent image since installation. (批准的消息)Adjacently installed for t̶a̶r̶g̶e̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ (没有) stereo disparity analysis is perhaps exactly another same camera
On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 11:01 PM, Robert Bell <r...@tradica.com> wrote:
The camera is fine.Perhaps there's a squid proxy or similar causing a caching issue between camera and live.heatsynclabs.org
On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Nick Bensema <nick.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
If we act quickly, there are some 480P cameras on http://meh.com/ for the next 22 hours or so, for about $20 each.
On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 4:02:20 PM UTC-7, Ryan McDermott wrote:3x Nest cameras. One for the main hall, one for the machine shop, one for the laser area.Cameras are ~$170 each.-Ryan
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Nate Plamondon
Dec 28, 2017, 3:38:27 PM12/28/17
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This proposal is being voted on tonight.
With the cameras working, I'm not convinced we should spend this much money to replace them.
I'd also like to continue the conversation Will brought up, which mentions what's been a known issue for a long time. I know of at least a couple people who want to take part in our community, but refuse on safety grounds because of the cameras. RBell did some interesting work generating obfuscated, but still informative, images in the past, so that's definitely an option we could explore.--
Nate Plamondon
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Robert Bell
Dec 28, 2017, 5:05:56 PM12/28/17
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Dear P̶i̶t̶r̶e̶ ̶P̶i̶x̶e̶l̶ People,
All of them.
The neglected Raspberry Pi? Yes, that too.
At least two 8GB sd cards would also be great.
Kind regards,
-R
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