Fwd: A Hackerspace "Space Blimp" Challenge

[Rick Osgood]

What does everyone think of this?  I think it's an awesome idea.  And the fact that their competition limits you to $250 means we don't have to completely break the bank trying to accomplish this.  I personally worked on a near space balloon project already so I do have some experience with it.  I'm sure a few others at HSL have as well.  Is anyone interested in getting involved with this?

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Kevin Roof <ke...@workshop88.com>
Date: Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 10:04 PM
Subject: A Hackerspace "Space Blimp" Challenge
To: in...@antitronics.com, con...@makerslocal.org, bo...@heatsynclabs.org, mcp...@gmail.com, cosmo.sim...@gmail.com, crashs...@gmail.com, tux...@tcp-imp.com, mac...@machineproject.com, in...@techshop.ws, san-diego-...@googlegroups.com, pr...@noisebridge.net, da...@boardsmasher.com, twil...@herot.net, denverha...@gmail.com, famil...@gmail.com, haccle...@ymail.com, tkr...@gmail.com, hack...@googlegroups.com, in...@ignitionalley.com, lv...@googlegroups.com, in...@harfordhackerspace.org, mit...@mit.edu, mr...@n0where.org, ho...@bu.edu, ba...@fidnet.com, trea...@archreactor.org, gen...@fubarlabs.com, midatlantic...@yahoogroups.com, ga...@signalnine.net, in...@sfcomplex.org, con...@nycresistor.com, in...@alphaonelabs.com, in...@buffalo.hackerspaces.us, ith...@googlegroups.com, in...@buglabs.net, in...@htink.net, in...@eyebeam.org, th...@itdoesntbelongthere.com, in...@interlockroc.org, app...@gmail.com, sc...@techshopdurham.com, ni...@lokkju.com, wre...@watershedpdx.com, Hiv...@gmail.com, con...@thehacktory.org, in...@hackpittsburgh.org, duck...@dc401.org, sh...@as220.org, in...@hackerconsortium.com, dis...@actlab.utexas.edu, in...@radarnetworks.com, in...@dprg.org, thetan...@gmail.com, de...@thetransistor.com, bellingha...@googlegroups.com, gr...@eigsti.com, in...@911media.org, btug...@fusestudios.com

All,

My name is Kevin Roof; I'm a member of Workshop 88, a hackerspace based in the suburbs of Chicago.

We're guessing many of you have been following news on the near-space weather balloon projects around the country, but if not, here are a few links to start:

On Makezine
On Hackedgadgets (1)
On Hackedgadgets (2)

We've come up with an interesting hackerspace competition involving near-space balloons that we thought many of you would be interested in.  I've attached an informational sheet and marketing flyer.

Let us know what you think,

Workshop 88

P.S. If you know of a hacker space we missed, please forward this invite to them.

[Paul Hickey]

I'd love to try this out.  I don't have any experience with this kind of project, but I think it'd be an incredible project to be part of!

Paul

[Rick Osgood]

When we did it, it cost >$1000 I believe, but I know I've seen some projects on line that used cell phones and inexpensive/easy to find equipment to do this on the cheap.  I have no doubt we can accomplish this if we really want too.

[Zachary Giles]

Let's do it!

--
Zach Giles
zgi...@gmail.com

[Paul Hickey]

I have a gps module that is small enough. I'm sure along with a prepaid cell phone shouldn't be too hard to setup for tracking and retrieval

On Feb 8, 2010 9:13 AM, "Rick Osgood" <ri...@heatsynclabs.org> wrote:

When we did it, it cost >$1000 I believe, but I know I've seen some projects on line that used cell phones and inexpensive/easy to find equipment to do this on the cheap.  I have no doubt we can accomplish this if we really want too.

On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Paul Hickey <paulh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> I'd love to try this...

[Zachary Giles]

or we could use ham radio stuff.. that's how most of the expensive
guys do it. The advantage is that it can go farther than a cell phone
and doesn't require service or intervention by the carriers. (If it
gets dropped in a remote place for example).
Some of that stuff can be pretty cheap. The TinyTrak (a common
tracking module) is <$50. (or so)

--
Zach Giles
zgi...@gmail.com

[Rick Osgood]

Ham radio stuff might be too expensive.  For this competition we have to keep the total cost down to $250, with receipts to prove it.  Cell phone would probably be cheaper and has been proven to work.  Also, you get bonus points for lightweight.  A cell phone can do a lot in a small, light package.  Ham radios tend to be larger and heavier.  If we do decide to go the ham radio route though, I have a tinytrak 3 we can probably use. 

If we can list equipment as "donated" or "found lying around" or something like that then we might be able to make due.  The rules aren't too specific.  Might be in our best interest to ask about it.

[Rick Osgood]

Just FYI I emailed Kevin back asking for some more details.  I'll let you know what I find out when I hear back.

[Casey Dekker]

I've used a prepaid cell phone to track gps before an have been
working on a uva blimp with nvg camera also

--
Sent from my mobile device

[Zachary Giles]

What does one use for tracking with a cell phone? Tinytrak over the
voice? Text message? Somehow need to get the data out.

--
Zach Giles
zgi...@gmail.com

[Casey Dekker]

mologogo is what i used

[Rick Osgood]

I believe there are several different services you can use to track your phone via GPS online.  It just uses the cell phone data network to track it.  This mologogo software seems perfect.  The fact that it is free and works on cheap pre-paid cell phones makes it an ideal candidate for a project like this.  Since the balloon will be up in the air, it should have direct line of sight to multiple cell towers.  Not sure if the phone would need some kind of external antenna to hit them or not, but I know some others have used cell phones for high altitude balloons so we can use their research to our advantage.

[Casey Dekker]

Depends on how high the balloon is up in the air I worked for 10 years
in the army on cell and radar so I got some refrence matrieals lying
around I can take a look at and have also built custom cell phone
antenea a powerful omni directioanal antenea may be the best bet los
would work good but not sure how good keeping the line of sight with
winds and what not

[Rick Osgood]

I heard back from Kevin (the guy running the competition).  It sounds like even if something is donated or found lying around it still has to have some cost.  So we'd have to find that object for sale somewhere as cheap as possible and consider that to be the price.  I pasted his response below:


"Hey Rick, thanks for your interest in the competition!  As far as the rules on cost go, to keep things as fair as possible, even is something is donated, it has to have a cost associated with it.  You could check some completed auctions on eBay, or search for the going price online, but we need a generally accepted value for the items to make sure that we have a level playing field for all those participating.

The website is located at http://www.workshop88.com/space/  There's a signup form there, and we'd appreciate it if you'd take a second to fill it out.  Also we hope to be adding a FAQ and a way for participating groups to communicate with each other.

If you have anymore questions, don't hesitate to contact me.

Have fun making,

Kevin "Roofus" Roof"

[Paul Hickey]

sweet!  I bought my old blackjack ii (which has a gps and works with mologogo) on craigslist for like 40 bucks.  Would that work?

Paul

[Rick Osgood]

Potentially.  We'd have to test it out somehow.  The main thing about pricing is we are supposed to have a receipt for all of the parts we use.  Maybe if you still have the Craigslist ad saved we could use that as a receipt.  If not, we would have to find that same phone for sale somewhere now as proof of what is costs to purchase.  That could potentially be even better if we found the phone for sale somewhere for less than the $40 you paid.

[Rick Osgood]

I just looked that phone up and saw that it runs Windows mobile.  If we could write/find an app for it that takes photos every 5 minutes or so, we could (almost) literally just tie it to a balloon.  It has built in battery, gps AND a camera and those are the only requirements for the competition really.  It would have to be insulated from the cold but other than that, the phone could potentially do everything we would need.  Not that we can't make this more extravagant, but if we wanted to go for a tiny form factor, this could be the way to go.

[Paul Hickey]

Cool, I'll bring it in next meeting!

Paul

[Will Bradley]

I'm sure those cheap prepaid phones will run a little Java app that will work just fine... I'd offer up my Android phone, but it probably wouldn't enjoy the trip up to the stratosphere much...

[Rick Osgood]

I was thinking if we are serious about entering this competition we should start planning this out.  I thought since I have some experience with these high altitude balloons I'd throw in my (current) idea of the simplest solution for how this could work.

Here is a summary of the major components we need for a functioning balloon to the best of my memory:

1) Balloon + helium (duh)
2) GPS for tracking the balloon
3) One way radio communication. - This is for sending us the GPS coordinates
4) Camera on a timer - Must take pictures every X minutes and have enough space to store them all
5) Flight computer - This coordinates all of the other parts and makes them work together
6) Batteries - Need to handle extreme cold and last long enough for the flight and for you to find it
7) Weatherproof container - This must keep out the cold as much as possible.  Also needs a hole for the camera to take pictures through.  You must be able to open, but latch it shut securely.  The electronics must be seccured inside somehow.  Also, the balloon has to attach to this, but be able to release somehow after it pops.
8) Parachute - This slows the balloon down so it doesn't slam into the ground at terminal velocity, but it's not huge enough that it takes forever for the payload to return to earth.

Here is what I think we can use for these components to make things as cheap and simple as possible:

1) For the balloon, we should be able to find weather balloons online.  I'm not too knowledgeable on this topic but we should be able to use the research of others and find something cheap online.  For helium, there are local places we can rent helium tanks from.  It isn't usually cheap but we don't have much of a choice unless someone has an in somewhere

2,3,5) GPS, Radio communication, and the flight computer can all be provided by a cheap cell phone.  The Mologogo app someone mentioned earlier runs on cheap prepaid phones and provides adequate tracking.

4) For the camera, the easiest thing to do would be to procure a used digital camera that has a timer function built-in.  Worst case scenario, we might be able to build a simple circuit that taps into the shutter button to manually take pictures every few minutes.  That is what we did with our balloon at UAT.  For a slightly more advanced approach we could try writing software for the phone that will use the camera's built in phone to take photos.  The quality might not be as good, but we might be able to even have the phone send us pics in real time in case we never recover the balloon.  Plus, how cool would it be to have a twitter account setup that posts live pictures from a balloon miles up?

6) For batteries, the cell phone battery will probably be sufficient if it is relatively new.  I do fear that it might perform poorly in the extreme cold of near space.  We could potentially make our own "charger" from a battery pack with a connector that plugs into the cell phone's charging port.  This would allow us to drain the external batteries before switching over the the phone's built-in battery as a backup.  For the digital camera, we can probably just use AA batteries.  I believe Lithium batteries are supposed to last longer and hold up better in the cold, although they are more expensive.

7) We used a Styrofoam cooler like the kind you can find at any circle k.  People have also used insulated lunch boxes.  If we do just use a phone and a camera, we should make this as small as possible.  We can probably custom make one out of Styrofoam and glue if needed.

8) These can be purchased or made.  It would probably be cheaper to make it.  I'm not familiar with that process but perhaps someone else is?  I know some HSL people have sewing machines that may help with this.


Paul, if you are seriously offering us your phone then I really do believe we can use just that as our computer.  If this is the phone you use for normal use then I wouldn't recommend it because there's a decent chance it could be destroyed.  What does everybody else thing?  Who is serious about participating in this project?  If we put a team together we can register on their site and get cracking on this.

RickO

[David Huerta]

I propose we name this dirigible the Roddenberry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Roddenberry

[Paul Hickey]

Yeah I'm willing to donate the blackjack. I bought a new phone and will probably never use it again.

Paul

On Feb 11, 2010 7:20 PM, "Rick Osgood" <ri...@heatsynclabs.org> wrote:

I was thinking if we are serious about entering this competition we should start planning this out.  I thought since I have some experience with these high altitude balloons I'd throw in my (current) idea of the simplest solution for how this could work.

Here is a summary of the major components we need for a functioning balloon to the best of my memory:

1) Balloon + helium (duh)
2) GPS for tracking the balloon
3) One way radio communication. - This is for sending us the GPS coordinates
4) Camera on a timer - Must take pictures every X minutes and have enough space to store them all
5) Flight computer - This coordinates all of the other parts and makes them work together
6) Batteries - Need to handle extreme cold and last long enough for the flight and for you to find it
7) Weatherproof container - This must keep out the cold as much as possible.  Also needs a hole for the camera to take pictures through.  You must be able to open, but latch it shut securely.  The electronics must be seccured inside somehow.  Also, the balloon has to attach to this, but be able to release somehow after it pops.
8) Parachute - This slows the balloon down so it doesn't slam into the ground at terminal velocity, but it's not huge enough that it takes forever for the payload to return to earth.

Here is what I think we can use for these components to make things as cheap and simple as possible:

1) For the balloon, we should be able to find weather balloons online.  I'm not too knowledgeable on this topic but we should be able to use the research of others and find something cheap online.  For helium, there are local places we can rent helium tanks from.  It isn't usually cheap but we don't have much of a choice unless someone has an in somewhere

2,3,5) GPS, Radio communication, and the flight computer can all be provided by a cheap cell phone.  The Mologogo app someone mentioned earlier runs on cheap prepaid phones and provides adequate tracking.

4) For the camera, the easiest thing to do would be to procure a used digital camera that has a timer function built-in.  Worst case scenario, we might be able to build a simple circuit that taps into the shutter button to manually take pictures every few minutes.  That is what we did with our balloon at UAT.  For a slightly more advanced approach we could try writing software for the phone that will use the camera's built in phone to take photos.  The quality might not be as good, but we might be able to even have the phone send us pics in real time in case we never recover the balloon.  Plus, how cool would it be to have a twitter account setup that posts live pictures from a balloon miles up?

6) For batteries, the cell phone battery will probably be sufficient if it is relatively new.  I do fear that it might perform poorly in the extreme cold of near space.  We could potentially make our own "charger" from a battery pack with a connector that plugs into the cell phone's charging port.  This would allow us to drain the external batteries before switching over the the phone's built-in battery as a backup.  For the digital camera, we can probably just use AA batteries.  I believe Lithium batteries are supposed to last longer and hold up better in the cold, although they are more expensive.

7) We used a Styrofoam cooler like the kind you can find at any circle k.  People have also used insulated lunch boxes.  If we do just use a phone and a camera, we should make this as small as possible.  We can probably custom make one out of Styrofoam and glue if needed.

8) These can be purchased or made.  It would probably be cheaper to make it.  I'm not familiar with that process but perhaps someone else is?  I know some HSL people have sewing machines that may help with this.


Paul, if you are seriously offering us your phone then I really do believe we can use just that as our computer.  If this is the phone you use for normal use then I wouldn't recommend it because there's a decent chance it could be destroyed.  What does everybody else thing?  Who is serious about participating in this project?  If we put a team together we can register on their site and get cracking on this.

RickO

On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Will Bradley <bradle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> I'm sure thos...

[Rick Osgood]

That's awesome Paul.  That could give us a good portion of the required components.  What OS is that phone running?  I'd like to see if we can write an app that controls the phone, and perhaps messaging.

[Rick Osgood]

I created a wiki page for this project and put in most of the idea's I wrote in my last email.  I strongly encourage anyone who is interested to contribute ideas to the wiki page.  If you are unsure about an idea just post it to this thread and we can discuss it!

http://heatsynclabs.org/wiki/Nearspace_Balloon

RickO

[Bobby Metz]

I too think this sounds exciting and would be a totally awesome project, but I was wondering about the distances involved.  After a little googling I'm both elated and disappointed:

 

Min distance to see curvature: 60K ft or ~ 11.4 miles

Max cell signal distances...note: varies by mast and equipment used.

    GSM - 45 miles

    CDMA - no limit

 

Sounds totally doable, but this doesn't guarantee it'll work.  The major limit is the power of the phone's transmitter as you'd expect.  Then I found a site which rained on the whole parade: 

 

Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulation 47 CFR Ch.1 (10/01/98 Edition) which states:

“Section 22.925 Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular
telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes, balloons or any
other type of aircraft must not be operated while such aircraft are
airborne (not touching the ground)."

 

So unless it's been repealed recently or the launch team hopes the border, the same law we all hate when flying applies to ballooning.  Since the contest rules state that you must follow all local regulations I would think that this rules out cellular based tracking/communication.  If the phone has airplane mode and a sensitive enough GPS you could still log the route, position, etc. but you'd have no legal way to transmit it while in flight or get cell tower assisted positioning.

 

For those suggesting Ham Radio...do you know if that would require a license to operate or not?

 

I didn't mean to curb anyone's enthusiasm with this message.  I still think it sounds exciting and for less attention getting projects you'd likely slide in the FCC's eyes.  I would just hate to see someone get arrested is all.

 

B

[Will Bradley]

The FCC operates off of complaints (think pirate radio) and severity (think powerful HAM stations) so I think we're fine.

Maybe we should ask the contest organizers if this is an exception to their rules? Cell phones are cheap easy and proven to work.

On Feb 12, 2010 12:48 AM, "Bobby Metz" <bwm...@gmail.com> wrote:

I too think this sounds exciting and would be a totally awesome project, but I was wondering about the distances involved.  After a little googling I'm both elated and disappointed:

 

Min distance to see curvature: 60K ft or ~ 11.4 miles

Max cell signal distances...note: varies by mast and equipment used.

    GSM - 45 miles

    CDMA - no limit

 

Sounds totally doable, but this doesn't guarantee it'll work.  The major limit is the power of the phone's transmitter as you'd expect.  Then I found a site which rained on the whole parade: 

 

Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulation 47 CFR Ch.1 (10/01/98 Edition) which states:

“Section 22.925 Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular
telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes, balloons or any
other type of aircraft must not be operated while such aircraft are
airborne (not touching the ground)."

 

So unless it's been repealed recently or the launch team hopes the border, the same law we all hate when flying applies to ballooning.  Since the contest rules state that you must follow all local regulations I would think that this rules out cellular based tracking/communication.  If the phone has airplane mode and a sensitive enough GPS you could still log the route, position, etc. but you'd have no legal way to transmit it while in flight or get cell tower assisted positioning.

 

For those suggesting Ham Radio...do you know if that would require a license to operate or not?

 

I didn't mean to curb anyone's enthusiasm with this message.  I still think it sounds exciting and for less attention getting projects you'd likely slide in the FCC's eyes.  I would just hate to see someone get arrested is all.

 

B

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Will Bradley
> To: heatsy...@googlegroups.com

> Sent: W...

[Paul Hickey]

If you haven't visited make today here is a successful attempt by Noisebridge

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/02/noisebridge_hackers_launch_balloon.html

Paul

[Rick Osgood]

Hmmmmm.  If there is a regulation saying that we can't operate a cell phone from a balloon then I think it would be best to not use a cell phone.  Can someone look into this and find out if it still applies and if it applies to us?

Bobby, to answer your ham radio question, we WILL need a licensed operator to use a ham radio.  Zach and I are both licensed operators, and really you only need one licensed operator.  Anyone can use a ham radio to listen to the tracking signal without a license.  We only need a license to transmit the gps signal from the balloon.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:28 AM, Will Bradley <bradle...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Rick Osgood]

I added a section to the wiki page for team members.  If you are interested in working on this project or helping out in some way, please add your name and email address to the list.  If wiki's aren't your thing, at least post to this thread specifically stating that you want to help in some way and I or someone else can add you to the list.  Once we have a few people on the list I'll fill out the competition form and sign us up officially.

http://heatsynclabs.org/wiki/Nearspace_Balloon

RickO

[Casey Dekker]

Check my twitter feed for a link about a hackerspace having done this
balloon project before
Twitter Id :terrordrone

--

[Rick Osgood]

That's pretty awesome, although the $25 part is a bit misleading.  That's just what they paid for the balloon.

[Zachary Giles]

I was going to say.. how much does a balloon cost? $25 (like Rick just
said)? I thought it was more like $100 or so. How much is helium?
Probably $25 or $50. Just guessing. We should probably start pricing
out the most expensive components since they will largely eat up the
budget.

I don't know about the cell phone .. if it will be a problem or not.
The post about CDMA not having a limit on distance.. um. no. That
doesn't make any sense. CDMA has a limit just like GSM. Both are
5-10mi or so. It will probably work decently well that far up in the
air, though I wouldn't be surprised if it loses signal.

One thing that I am concerned about: What do we have to do to launch
it? I know we have to somehow tell or talk to the FAA.. who do we
contact? Also we should be careful of the different classes (Class B
or whatever) of airspace since we are near a few airports. If we're
over by ASU that's near skyharbor. Gangplank is getting over into the
chandler area one. Something to think about.

--
Zach Giles
zgi...@gmail.com

[Rick Osgood]

The guys from noisebridge managed to find a balloon for $25 which sounds like they found a good deal.  I think for our balloon we bought 3 of them for about $150 or so.  I can't remember the price of the helium, but I think they do require like a $200 refundable deposit in case you destroy their airtank.

Cell phones have worked for other people, but I'd rather not use them if it violates an FCC regulation.  I know the chance of us getting in trouble is practically zero, but I like the idea of doing this completely legit and knowing it.  If we don't use cell phones, that pretty much leaves us with ham radio usage.

There is a phone number we can call to file a "notice to airmen".  This just lets everyone know when and where we will be launching our balloon so they can keep an eye out.  We launched ours out of Maricopa.  It was actually a perfect spot for it and I recommend we use it again.  I'll try to get the details on Google maps.  We will want to check wind predictions when we decide to launch to make sure the balloon won't drift too close to closed airspace.  If I recall correctly, we have to be at least 2 - 2.5 miles away from an airport, and obviously if our balloon drifts into airforce space we won't be able to recover it ourselves.  This place is maricopa was awesome.  It had this flat concrete floor in the middle of nowhere that was perfect for setting up gear and launching the balloon.  It's also far enough out in the middle of nowhere that you are very unlikely to lose the balloon.

I agree we should start pricing things out.  If I have time today I will create a price table in the wiki that we can use to tally things up.  We have to try to keep the total under $250.  If someone else wants to start this that would be fine by me.  I'm at work so it's hard to find time.

[Paul Hickey]

I found a link about some MIT students who did basically what we are looking to do for $150

http://space.1337arts.com/

It also says at the bottom of the page that FAA regulations only apply to craft with payloads over 4 lbs.


Paul

[Rick Osgood]

OK so if we keep the total package under 4lbs (which is one of the conditions of the competition anyway) then we should be OK with the FAA, although it would be best to double check that claim.  We still probably can't use the cell phone though since that is regulated by the freakin' FCC.

[Bobby Metz]

The pad in Maricopa...was that one of the old Army Air Corp training pads from WWII?  Or something newer?

 

As for the distances I gave on cell signals...it was theoretical maximums according to the source.  Obviously there are practical limits due to phone transmitter power.

 

Glad there are some hammers onboard to lend a transmit license.  How do you transmit data?  I've heard of packet radio and APRS, but I know absolutely nothing about them.  I assume that APRS is the ticket, yes?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Packet_Reporting_System

 

Bobby

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Rick Osgood

To: heatsy...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 3:49 PM

Subject: Re: [HSL] A Hackerspace "Space Blimp" Challenge

[Rick Osgood]

Aprs is the standard.  Look up the tinytrak3 as Zach mentioned earlier.

On Feb 12, 2010 9:17 PM, "Bobby Metz" <bwm...@gmail.com> wrote:

The pad in Maricopa...was that one of the old Army Air Corp training pads from WWII?  Or something newer?

 

As for the distances I gave on cell signals...it was theoretical maximums according to the source.  Obviously there are practical limits due to phone transmitter power.

 

Glad there are some hammers onboard to lend a transmit license.  How do you transmit data?  I've heard of packet radio and APRS, but I know absolutely nothing about them.  I assume that APRS is the ticket, yes?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Packet_Reporting_System

 

Bobby

 

----- Original Message -----

>
> From: Rick Osgood
> To: heatsy...@googlegroups.com

> Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 3:49 PM

> Subject: Re: [HSL] A Hackerspace "Space Blimp" Challeng...

> OK so if we keep the total package under 4lbs (which is one of the conditions of the competition a...

[jason.p...@gmail.com]

if you guys dont want to use a cell phone, i saw a FMRS/GMRS motorola
walkie talkie pair at target, the reported effective range was 8
miles, they were small, i would imagine fairly hackable, and only $18
for the pair. I'm not a hammer, but i think it would be usable.

[Rick Osgood]

It might not be legal to transmit data on those frequencies.  Good idea though.  We will have to check if that is legal or not.  We can probably hack external antennas to them if needed.  Really we only need one for transmitting.  I have at least 2 HAM radios that can receive those frequencies already.

[Bobby Metz]

That crossed my mind as well, but I wasn't sure of how much throughput would be needed for the telemetry.  You can transmit data on the FRS band, but there are very strict limits on how long and how often you can do it.  It might be enough, I dunno.  I'm not going to speculate further, i.e. hoping someone else knows the throughput requirements.

 

B

[Casey Dekker]

Can beef up transmision power in a cell phone easy will just kill time
of battery life

[Zachary Giles]

If the cell phone doesnt work..then there's really no point in trying
to beef up or modify other technology that isn't legal or known when
we have ham radio stuff at our disposal. The tinytrak is designed to
be able to work at low bandwidths inside the ham frequencies.

On a side note (maybe the Champions will be interested in this..) ..
if we start doing stuff like this with ham guys, maybe those groups
will be interested in HeatSync as well and consider joining forces
with our group. We are still in the "grow the group" phase, and can
always use the publicity.

--
Zach Giles
zgi...@gmail.com

[Casey Dekker]

True plus give me a reason to go get my ham license renewed

[Rick Osgood]

Just saw this today:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=379_1258470423
http://vimeo.com/8401951

Was pretty neat.

[Zachary Giles]

Unfortunately, neither of those links work for me. The first one says
undefined codec (even when I download the FLV manually using wget and
play with VLC). The second one doesn't even pop-up a player. And I'm
on a windows box in Firefox with all the flash stuff working and
everything.
I'll have to look somewhere else for it. The description is awesome
though.. I wonder why they did it.

--
Zach Giles
zgi...@gmail.com

[Paul Hickey]

Both links work for me on firefox on os x and firefox on windows 7 and firefox on xp

Paul

[Will Bradley]

Working for me on Ubuntu Netbook Edition & FF

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Zachary Giles <zgi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Zachary Giles]

Cool. I'll try later I guess.

--
Zach Giles
zgi...@gmail.com

[David Huerta]

Works for me on IA32 Ubuntu Karmic Koala.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Zachary Giles <zgi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Nathanael Phillips]

Worked in amd64, Karmic, in Opera.

Pretty darn cool, too.

[Rick Osgood]

Wanted to keep some action on this thread.  Is anyone willing to commit to this project in any way?  I'm not saying we all have to sign our lives over or anything.  I'd love to do this project and I'm fine with pushing it along, but realistically I think we need about four people who are "officially" part of this team.  Right now the wiki page just lists me as a member of the team.  If we don't get about three more people then I'm not sure this project is going to... *sunglasses*...  "get off the ground" (YYYEEEAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!).  If you are seriously interested in working on this then please respond saying so and I'll add you to the wiki page.  Once we have at least four people we can continue the planning process.  If you'd rather just keep an eye on the goings on of this thread and put in your two cents here and there that's fine too, we just need a few dedicated people to really get this moving.

RickO

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Nathanael Phillips <na...@coffeebot.net> wrote:

Worked in amd64, Karmic, in Opera.

Pretty darn cool, too.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 10:18 AM, David Huerta <huer...@heatsynclabs.org> wrote:

Works for me on IA32 Ubuntu Karmic Koala.

Wanted t

[David Huerta]

Count me in, we will defeat the Harkonnen--err--Noisebridge with desert power!

brb sandworms!

[Paul Hickey]

I don't know how much I can help, but I'd be down for helping out in any way I can.

Paul

[Rick Osgood]

Sweet thanks for responding guys.  I added both of you to the wiki page.  That brings our count up to 3.  If we get one more person I think that'll give us a large enough team to really commit to working on this.  Of course, more people would be nice too.

[Will Bradley]

I'm definitely down.

[Rick Osgood]

Sweet that makes four of us.  I added you to the wiki page as well.  More would be better but four can at least give us a decent team.  I want to start planning this out but first we have to decide how we are going to handle all of our radio communications.  We had talked about using Paul's phone, which would be amazing, but it sounds like it might be against FCC regulations.  While most likely we wouldn't have any problems I personally feel like I want this project to follow all regulations.  What do you guys think?  I'm trying to find official documentation on this somewhere before we rule out the cell phone but it's hard to find this stuff.  If you guys could do some searching as well and post your findings here, it would be much appreciated.

[Will Bradley]

Did the contest organizer mention if it was allowed or not?

[Rick Osgood]

The invite says "All local laws and ordinances must be followed throughout the entire competition."  But this isn't local right?  It's federal!  I did some Googling and I still can't find anything official.  I've found several random places where it is said that you cannot operate cell phones at those altitudes like that but nothing official.  I've also found nothing that specifically says we CAN do it.  I'm still leaning towards HAM radio.  I think we can still do this for under $250 with HAM radio, it just probably won't be quite as inexpensive as it could be with a cell phone.  But we would be able to tell everyone that we did it without breaking any fcc/faa regulations.

[Will Bradley]

I guess. It'd just suck if we lost the competition cuz everyone else used cell phones. An official answer from the organizer would help a lot, since cell phones are so cheap & lightweight.

[Rick Osgood]

It would suck if we lost because everyone else used cell phones, but it would also suck if some random team one just because they used ham radio and everyone else used cell phones.  I'll email him again and ask about it.

[Paul Hickey]

I have a ticket in with the fcc right now. I may try to call them next week to get a definitive yes or no on the subject.

I can't find an example of a cell phone being used anywhere.

Paul

On Feb 19, 2010 4:25 PM, "Rick Osgood" <ri...@heatsynclabs.org> wrote:

The invite says "All local laws and ordinances must be followed throughout the entire competition."  But this isn't local right?  It's federal!  I did some Googling and I still can't find anything official.  I've found several random places where it is said that you cannot operate cell phones at those altitudes like that but nothing official.  I've also found nothing that specifically says we CAN do it.  I'm still leaning towards HAM radio.  I think we can still do this for under $250 with HAM radio, it just probably won't be quite as inexpensive as it could be with a cell phone.  But we would be able to tell everyone that we did it without breaking any fcc/faa regulations.

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Will Bradley <bradle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> Did the contest ...

[Will Bradley]

http://space.1337arts.com/

[Rick Osgood]

I've been looking around to see if anyone has written any APRS software for cell phones that would allow the cell phone to control a radio.  That would allow us to use the phone's built-in gps to output data via the ham radio.  Many radios support a VOX (voice on transmit) function.  If the phone can output the data via the headphone jack then we should be able to hook that up to a radio and use VOX to transmit.  I've found some APRS programs for winmobile and android but most of them report via internet (why would you want that?).  I haven't found anything that outputs via the audio jack yet.

[Will Bradley]

Many of them report via the Internet and run in the background so you can track your phone (lost phone, cheating girlfriend, etc)

[Rick Osgood]

Wow Kevin already got back to me with a reponse about the cell phone question:

"As far as we all can tell there are no regulations on cell phone use at any particular altitude, i believe most these high altitude balloon projects use them with no issues, because A they are affordable, and B they don't require a license to operate like most of the useful radio equipment out there. The FAA and the FCC have probably never considered the secenario of sending a cellular phone into near space. If you're concerned, you might consider using an altimeter to turn the cell phone off and back on at desired altitudes, this might also help conserve battery life. "

Sounds to me like he doesn't care.  The altimeter idea is an interesting one, however I'd prefer not to lose track of the balloon at all.  When they hit the jet stream they can go pretty far.  What do you guys think?

[Zachary Giles]

I think that we should launch a couple balloons.. One for the contest,
but others as well for testing and fun. Let's try a cell phone in one.
I don't think that anyone will complain.. being that others have done
this before. If it's a problem, it will only be one for a few hours.
The likelyhood that the cell phone will cause an issues is Very low.
(It would be fun to be a t-mobile rep and see this cell phone jumping
from tower to tower really has ..they'll be confused. it'll be fun. ..
pretty sure they don't look at that kind of stuff much).

So yeah, let's try it. Program up the phone on the ground. make sure
the tracking works. Launch Balloon1 with it. We can try Ham on
Balloon2 etc.

If needed for the ham, I have a GPS receiver that runs on 5v and puts
out RS232 standard GPS data for a tinytrak. It fits inside an altoid
tin .. so just what we're looking for

--
Zach Giles
zgi...@gmail.com

[Rick Osgood]

Sweet so for HAM, you have a nice GPS module, I have a tinyTrak.  I also have a radio we might be able to use, although I'd prefer to get one just for the project.

If we are going to make a balloon with a cell phone anyway, I say fuck it lets do that first then.  I think it'll be cheapest and easiest and we can get some good results fast.  Paul dropped his winmobile phone off at Gangplank somewhere in our area.  Someone should grab it next time they are there and set up the software on it.

Paul, can we get pre-paid credits on that phone?  Does it require a service plan?  That could be a potential problem.

RickO

[Paul Hickey]

Its an unlocked gsm phone. It was originally att  so you can use any sim card for it.

Paul

On Feb 19, 2010 5:31 PM, "Rick Osgood" <ri...@heatsynclabs.org> wrote:

Sweet so for HAM, you have a nice GPS module, I have a tinyTrak.  I also have a radio we might be able to use, although I'd prefer to get one just for the project.

If we are going to make a balloon with a cell phone anyway, I say fuck it lets do that first then.  I think it'll be cheapest and easiest and we can get some good results fast.  Paul dropped his winmobile phone off at Gangplank somewhere in our area.  Someone should grab it next time they are there and set up the software on it.

Paul, can we get pre-paid credits on that phone?  Does it require a service plan?  That could be a potential problem.

RickO

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Zachary Giles <zgi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> I think that we shoul...

[Nathanael Phillips]

Hey guys --

I would absolutely love to join in on the balloon project. My only concern is the distance between me and Gangplank (an hour drive, give or take), and a total lack of "fun money" to contribute to the project.

If there's anything I can do from home, I'd love to contribute. I have a couple *old* nokia candybar phones that might serve useful for tweeting results, but I highly doubt either have any GPS built in (they certainly never touted the functionality).

Oh... I do have a G1 with a busted screen ribbon...$30 would fix it. But, I'm not 100% sure I want to part with it. If it would be a brilliant addition, I could probably be persuaded ;)

Let me know if there's anything I can do.

[Will Bradley]

There are java midlet gps tracking apps that many regular cell phones can use if they have GPS, I believe. At least that's what the 1337arts guys did.

1337arts also said that you lose cell coverage quite quickly (anyone who's flown often can probably attest to this) however unexpected glitches with reactivation of the cell phone would be undesirable and just add to weight.

I'd like to do a competition and "for fun" balloon too. 1337arts' video of the ascent/decent is a little too time-lapse for me, being a visual guy I'd love nothing more than to take full 15-30fps video for as long as possible, and/or take a good high-rez photo of the earth. That's what makes it real to me :)

[Rick Osgood]

Nate, I added you to the wiki page.  I'm sure there are things you can help with from home and if we do have to get together for anything there's no reason we HAVE to meet at gangplank.  We can try to meet up somewhere in the middle.

Will, are you saying that they lose cell coverage quickly up in the air?  I would have thought cell coverage would be optimal up there with line of sight to so many towers.  I wonder if we could modify a phone to use an external antenna.  We could dangle that outside of the payload.  This would provide a signal boost without having to subject the actual phone to the freezing cold.  That's what we did with the HAM radio balloon, only those radios are designed to have external antennas... <begins googling>.

RickO

[Jacob Rosenthal]

We're going to run a little fundraiser on the front page for the project as well.  We have just been spitballing something like 300-400 dollar budget? 

Discuss?

[Rick Osgood]

The competition says we cant spend more than $250... although if we screw something up and have to re-buy parts then it could ultimately go over that amount.  We really should come up with at least a primitive parts list before we tell people how much money we need.  I'll look around now and see if I can slap something together.  I'll base the prices on the assumption that we will be using a cell phone instead of HAM radio for this first balloon.

RickO

[David Huerta]

We'll likely want to budget for two ships, a test run we can afford to lose and the competition balloon.

[Will Bradley]

Rick-- for various reasons cell phones lose signal at a few thousand feet. Read the 1337arts story for their experience.

[Nathanael Phillips]

The rules do say a limit of $250...but is vague enough that it could be interpreted as "parts used in the final product". But that's a sketchy interpretation...it also doesn't leave room for any sort of testing and failure. It's definitely a question worth asking.

Also...I have an old digital camera that should be fairly easy to hack. And it's lightweight.  ..only 640x480 rez, though.

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 7:41 PM, David Huerta <huer...@heatsynclabs.org> wrote:

[Paul Hickey]

The best idea for a camera would probably be a Canon with chdk installed like that mit crew. I'm pretty sure the blackjack has a little pig tail port to extend the cell signal, not sure though.

Paul

On Feb 19, 2010 7:48 PM, "Nathanael Phillips" <na...@coffeebot.net> wrote:

The rules do say a limit of $250...but is vague enough that it could be interpreted as "parts used in the final product". But that's a sketchy interpretation...it also doesn't leave room for any sort of testing and failure. It's definitely a question worth asking.

Also...I have an old digital camera that should be fairly easy to hack. And it's lightweight.  ..only 640x480 rez, though.

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 7:41 PM, David Huerta <huer...@heatsynclabs.org> wrote:

>
> We'll likely want to budget for two ships, a test run we can afford to lose and the competition ...

[Will Bradley]

I wouldn't mind, say, a 20% chance of destruction if I sent up my digital camera in our "fun" blimp. Wonder how to combat lens fog and air pressure...

On Feb 19, 2010 7:48 PM, "Nathanael Phillips" <na...@coffeebot.net> wrote:

The rules do say a limit of $250...but is vague enough that it could be interpreted as "parts used in the final product". But that's a sketchy interpretation...it also doesn't leave room for any sort of testing and failure. It's definitely a question worth asking.

Also...I have an old digital camera that should be fairly easy to hack. And it's lightweight.  ..only 640x480 rez, though.

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 7:41 PM, David Huerta <huer...@heatsynclabs.org> wrote:

>
> We'll likely want to budget for two ships, a test run we can afford to lose and the competition ...

[Rick Osgood]

We used some random cheap digital camera in our balloon that was donated and it was completely fine.  We did purchase this waterproof "sportscam" video camera and that lens fogged up quick.  I think it was because it was completely sealed.  I have a feeling whatever camera you have will do fine, and Nates will probably work too.  I'll put that down as a $0 since we definitely have Nate's to use.

[Rick Osgood]

I stuck a really simple chart on the wiki with prices for things I quickly found on Google.  There is still stuff missing.  The total for one balloon launch has come to about $165 with what I found so far.  I'm guessing there could easily be another $50 of stuff that I have left off (batteries, battery holder, wire, nylon cord).  I think $250 is a perfect number for one launch using the cell phone.  If we want to raise money for two launches with the exact same payload then we will need an additional balloon and more helium.  If we want to change to a ham radio setup then we're going to have to do a whole new chart.

I'm starting to get sketched about the cell phone based on what I'm hearing about loss of signal.  I was hoping an external antenna would fix this problem.  I'll take a look at the article Will mentioned.  What does everyone else think?

RickO

[Nathanael Phillips]

$0 is right...I don't think you could honestly give this thing away on eBay. I need to dig it out of my tub o' crap...I *think* it has an SD card slot. Otherwise, it only has about 16MB of storage.  (no autofocus, no zoom, nothing...)

[Rick Osgood]

I also have an old camera I wouldn't mind donating to this project if need be.  We should be covered for the camera regardless I think.

[Bobby Metz]

I'd like to sign-up to help in whatever way I can if you still need others.  I don't have a lot of spare time at the moment, but fun things like this seem to find time.

 

I agree on the CHDK idea as I was thinking the same, but it will likely put the project over budget if you have to account for the cost of a used camera.  Sorry, I don't have one to donate.

 

As for Ham vs. Cell, I say go with Ham since it sounds like several of you have the parts already, assuming they too won't jeopardize the $250 budget.  The signal loss isn't a huge surprise as it'd make no sense to design your cell towers to transmit as far up as they do out.  And speaking of the FCC rule, here is the link to it on their website:

 

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-03-95A1.txt

 

Just search for balloon.

 

Bobby

----- Original Message -----

From: Will Bradley

To: heatsy...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 8:06 PM

Subject: Re: [HSL] A Hackerspace "Space Blimp" Challenge

[Rick Osgood]

Bobby you are added to the wiki list good sir.  Thanks so much for that FCC link I was trying to find something like that but was unable too.  That makes me want to go back to HAM radio.  I have a radio and a Tinytrak we can use.  I believe Zach said earlier that he ha a GPS module.

Zach, can you find out how much your GPS module goes for and post it back here?  I'm going to start a new price chart for using HAM radios.  I'll find out how much my stuff goes for and add it as well.

With that in mind, we may be able to afford a used cannon camera, or get lucky and find one at a Goodwill or something.

RickO

[Bobby Metz]

Another thought...regarding the video vs. stills debate.  Whatever is decided I would like to suggest that we consider/research adding fins to the payload to reduce or hopefully eliminate out of control spinning.  To me that is the worst part of every video I've seen.  Rick, did your former balloon have any features to control spin that we could copy?

 

Bobby

[Rick Osgood]

I updated the wiki page with a second price list for a HAM radio based balloon.  I figure we can easily make an antenna.  My radio has a BNC connector and we can find parts locally.  Anything else that should be on there?

RickO

[Rick Osgood]

In response to Bobbys last message (It was posted in a new thread for some reason, I've pasted it below.)  I completely agree that we should try to stabilize the payload somehow.  Our payload did not have any kind of stabilization feature.  Honestly for still photographs it probably isn't at all necessary.  As long as the photos don't come out blurry they will look incredible.  Video on the other hand you would want it to be as stable as possible, preferably pointing towards the horizon.  Fins could definitely help, but there is one problem that many people don't think of.

When you get that high up, there is MUCH less air than down here.  Usually your parachute won't even open because there isn't enough wind resistance there to inflate it.  I'm not sure if the fins would really do much good up there, although as it is going up and down they may help.  I feel like some kind of weight-based stabilizers might help, but we have to keep our total weight under 4 pounds.

RickO

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

"Another thought...regarding the video vs. stills debate.  Whatever is decided I would like to suggest that we consider/research adding fins to the payload to reduce or hopefully eliminate out of control spinning.  To me that is the worst part of every video I've seen.  Rick, did your former balloon have any features to control spin that we could copy?"

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

[Bobby Metz]

Here's another balloon project to reference.  First time I've seen this one but at quick glance the site looks really informative.  It's nicely broken down by subsystems, regulations, the whole nine yards.

 

http://vpizza.org/~jmeehan/balloon/

[Rick Osgood]

I don't know why I didn't think to link you all to the project wiki for our UAT balloons.  I only played a role in the first balloon.  The second one they launched a few months later at night.

http://nearspace.0x58.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

I have all of the good pictures on my facebook.  Here is a public link to the album so you won't need a facebook profile to view them:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2003453&id=138900389&l=6d0787cb63

I'll see if I can find the video anywhere.  I'm not sure if it was ever put online.  Most of it was all fogged out anyway.


RickO

[Todd Harrison]

I helped search for Make's AHAB payload in Washington state back in
2007. I posted about it on my blog at:
http://www.toddfun.com/2007/06/10/ahab-payload-search-in-washington-state/
At the top of my blog are photos and links back to the original AHAB
project. Plus I posted their original data they sent me.

You could get some ideas from those links.
We never found the payload but if you follow the links you will see
thay had things down good, but the batteries got cold and the thing
quit transmitting the GPS signal.

If I started digging I might be able to find some old email connects
that you could use to request more details from the team.
let me know.

Todd

[Rick Osgood]

Sweet thanks for the info Todd.  I'll check that out.

[Rick Osgood]

FYI I filled out their sign up form.  We are officially in this race.

[Bobby Metz]

I found a couple of good looking sites discussing lift.  I was curious about the amount of helium needed to lift four lbs.  The first one even goes so far as calculating the altitude at which the balloon will pop.  The second site even has a paragraph on balloon sources but unfortunately no company websites are listed. 

 

http://balloon.pbworks.com/Launch-Planning#LiftPlanning

 

http://www.chem.hawaii.edu/uham/lift.html

 

I hope these don't duplicate info from one of the other sites I see you guys posted...I haven't read those yet.

 

Bobby

----- Original Message -----

From: Rick Osgood

To: heatsy...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 10:56 PM

Subject: Re: [HSL] A Hackerspace "Space Blimp" Challenge

[Rick Osgood]

Ill take a look when I have some more time.  There is also software that will preditct the path the balloon will take based on wind predictions, weight, and balloon size.  Might be links to it from the UAT nearspace wiki I linked earlier.

On Feb 19, 2010 11:48 PM, "Bobby Metz" <bwm...@gmail.com> wrote:

I found a couple of good looking sites discussing lift.  I was curious about the amount of helium needed to lift four lbs.  The first one even goes so far as calculating the altitude at which the balloon will pop.  The second site even has a paragraph on balloon sources but unfortunately no company websites are listed. 

 

http://balloon.pbworks.com/Launch-Planning#LiftPlanning

 

http://www.chem.hawaii.edu/uham/lift.html

 

I hope these don't duplicate info from one of the other sites I see you guys posted...I haven't read those yet.

 

Bobby

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rick Osgood
> To: heatsy...@googlegroups.com

> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 10:56 PM

> Subject: Re: [HSL] A Hackerspace "Space Blimp" Challen...

> FYI I filled out their sign up form.  We are officially in this race.
>

> On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at ...

[Bobby Metz]

FYI, Heatsync has been mentioned in an article about the contest...posted yesterday on hobbyspace.

 

http://hobbyspace.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=18794

 

B

[Jacob Rosenthal]

So what do we want to compete on?  Weight, cost, something else?

[Nathanael Phillips]

I'm pretty sure the competition is on everything. Speed of recovery, weight, and cost.

Plus, the cost max is $250...but you get 50 points for coming in at $150 or less. You lose a half point for every dollar over $150, so meeting the 250 limit means 0 points for cost. Definitely something we'd watch out for. 

Recovery and cost are the big factors here. 

[Zachary Giles]

Sorry I've been a little MIA on this.

I bought my GPS module off ebay for $15 as part of a Palm GPS mapper
thing and hacked it to get the serial data out. That was several years
ago.. probably can still get them for about that price.

As for HAM vs Cell: It's interesting to hear that they lost cell
service going up.. I figured this would happen, but it didnt sound
like it from our discussion here until now. It makes sense since their
antenna arrays are directional sector antennas aiming out and not up.
They're not designed to go up in the air. With HAM we could have
telemetry (and possibly video.. for an extra ~$60 probably) the entire
time..that would be cool. A couple watt radio should do the trick for
that. People use those all the time for tracking satellites etc.

I also have to second Will's idea about a high res picture of the
curve of the earth. Yes. I want that. And/Or live video. That would be
sweet. We can do that with a HAM 400Mhz FM Tv transmitter that are a
few ounces and about $60

--
Zach Giles
zgi...@gmail.com

[Rick Osgood]

Zach,  If our radio s being used for telemetry then wouldn't we need a second radio + battery + camera to transmit video?  Now that I don't want to do this, I've always wanted to do this with live video.  But for this competition I'm not sure it's realistic.

[Will Bradley]

Weren't we talking about one bare-bones one for the competition and a second for all the cool stuff we're talking about? If we compete on weight/price it wouldn't make sense to put hardly anything in it.

On Feb 21, 2010 5:38 PM, "Rick Osgood" <ri...@heatsynclabs.org> wrote:

Zach,  If our radio s being used for telemetry then wouldn't we need a second radio + battery + camera to transmit video?  Now that I don't want to do this, I've always wanted to do this with live video.  But for this competition I'm not sure it's realistic.

On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 5:15 PM, Zachary Giles <zgi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> Sorry I've been a lit...