Proposal: Purchase 4 new Webcams for the live feed
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Mike Wolfson
Aug 11, 2021, 4:16:06 PM8/11/21
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I am proposing we purchase new cameras to replace the existing cameras we use for the live feed in the lab. Our current cameras are very low resolution, and it is difficult to see details of what is going on.
I am proposing we purchase 4 of these IP cameras, which should be very easy to integrate into our existing infrastructure. These cameras are $109 each, so this proposal is to allocate $450 total to this effort.
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I am proposing we purchase 4 of these IP cameras, which should be very easy to integrate into our existing infrastructure. These cameras are $109 each, so this proposal is to allocate $450 total to this effort.
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Reasoning: camera technology has become really good. These new cameras will work much better. They will have higher resolution, and also will work in limited light conditions. I spent a bit of time researching options - there might be cheaper alternatives, but these camera are very high quality, full-featured, and will work well for our needs.
Jasper Nance
Aug 11, 2021, 6:42:37 PM8/11/21
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I thought the anonymity was sort of the point? For a while they were set to slightly out of focus even to show people yes or no but not exactly laptop screens or faces
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Nate Plamondon
Aug 11, 2021, 7:19:30 PM8/11/21
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While I have no love for our current cameras, Jasper is correct. We've lost potential members because the cameras exist, and I imagine some would be less comfortable if they or their work were clearly identifiable.
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Nate Plamondon
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Eric Wood
Aug 12, 2021, 10:02:52 AM8/12/21
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For those less familiar with the lab's camera setup it might be useful to know that the live feed cameras are semi-intentionally not great for the reasons already stated. That said, there are other cameras that are higher quality and recorded that the operations team and board can review as necessary.
Mike Wolfson
Aug 12, 2021, 10:13:38 AM8/12/21
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I always thought the intention of the cameras were too highlight the activities of the lab so people could see the cool things we are building. I don't think they are intended to peep on the people that are there, and that has to do with positioning
I think the cameras look terrible, and don't represent our lab in a very polished light.
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Rafael
Aug 12, 2021, 3:40:01 PM8/12/21
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I gree with Mike's point of view, maybe just using one camera to show the projects Ina semi-finished / finished state.
The rest can stay blurry to allow that some level of security (person there or not).
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Jasper Nance
Aug 12, 2021, 4:06:06 PM8/12/21
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At one point we had a "mobile project cam" for that purpose, but I think it got turned into a printer camera?
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Nate Plamondon
Aug 12, 2021, 4:21:05 PM8/12/21
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If that's the intent, I think it'd be better to revive the lab camera idea. We used to have a small digital camera with an EyeFi card that makers could use to take and upload project pics to our main page. That service was ruthlessly murdered, and we haven't found a suitable replacement.
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Nate Plamondon
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Mike Wolfson
Aug 12, 2021, 10:31:50 PM8/12/21
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I think these cameras should point to tools/equipment...I envision a camera pointing at the 3D printers, lasers, and other tools so people can see stuff that is being built, but also so they can check if the equipment is available.
The nuance of making sure they are pointed towards equipment is a great addition, and I appreciate that addition very much.
The nuance of making sure they are pointed towards equipment is a great addition, and I appreciate that addition very much.
-Mike
Cprossu
Aug 13, 2021, 6:10:57 PM8/13/21
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The mobile project cam is right now.... I think the rear door camera. The other nicer camera you donated is the laser camera right now @Nebarnix, and we had at least 2 cameras die and become brain dead.
Melissa Trible
Aug 22, 2021, 2:52:03 AM8/22/21
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Possible suggestion on that front: have some "good" cameras, aiming so that they don't see most of the lab space, and have the areas they do see marked out with tape or something. Probably the laser cutter, and the 3-D printer, and maybe also one or two aiming at the display cases and/or the street. That way, there's some shiny images for the website of people Doing Cool Things (or, at least, of the equipment used to Do Cool Things), but it will also be fairly easy for those who don't want to be on camera to know where not to stand (or when to put on their hats/masks/whatever). Then, have one or a few fuzzy cams for basic "Hey, is someone at the lab?" images, that can't resolve details.
Alternately, have good cameras, but also an "off" button for each that will turn them off (or extremely low-res) for, say, 30 minutes. That way, people concerned about their privacy can make themselves not-seen while they are actively at the lab, but the default state of the lab is "Hey, look at these pictures of the Cool Things We're Doing!" In terms of good PR, a clear webcam that's occasionally off is probably better than a fuzzy webcam that's always on.
Mike Wolfson
Aug 22, 2021, 6:52:27 PM8/22/21
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Thank you Melissa this is exactly in line with what I was hoping for.
I would like to use the live cams to promote the cool things we are doing, while maintaining privacy.
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Jot Powers
Aug 22, 2021, 11:17:05 PM8/22/21
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I'm fine with the proposal, as long as it includes implementation. I think we have a tendency to buy things to do X, but unless someone is going to take ownership of implementing them, they can stall.
-Jot
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Nate Caine
Aug 23, 2021, 2:57:03 PM8/23/21
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Coverage: Good camera coverage with reasonable definition has been beneficial. We just need better coverage as there are entire sections of the lab that are invisible. (Art tables, lockers, member boxes, Machine Shop, kitchen.) It doesn't make sense to spend good money on decent cameras, and then degrade the results. To me it makes sense to have a common camera system for security AND the web site. We just choose a few select cameras to feature on the web page.
On a positive note: I sometimes see a friend at the lab and will drop in to lend them a hand. Or I might ask a favor of them, and save me a trip to the lab (check something, turn off something, etc.). It's also fun to generally see what people are working on, or see an interesting project evolve. Many times this leads to a helpful suggestion about a tool or technique (especially so with the laser, shop, or electronics area). Sometimes when repairing the laser, it's helpful to know who used it last, and what problems they encountered. We are supposed to be a community.
On a negative note: It's helpful, as others have also reported, to provide feedback to those that abuse the equipment, or leave a mess for others. (The laser log only works if people use it, and the same people that abuse equipment and leave messes are unlikely to log their work/mess). Countless times people have mentioned to me, "you won't believe what I saw X doing here on the camera last night".
Night Vision: The back hallway camera has good infrared capability that kicks in at night. The camera over the laser, and the one over the front door do not. And they are useless in dim light. Also the front door camera seems to have an auto iris problem such that it is sharp with good lighting, but blurry in even slightly reduced room light. It's so bad that myself and others, have puzzled over it to identify a person seen in the lab.
POE WiFi: It's a lot easier to install if these are POE camera, but we need to be sure they are all on the same standard. (That way we avoid all the second set of ugly wiring coiled up for the AC power adapters.) WiFi cameras might be even easier to install/maintain, but on the one hand we are concerned about someone hacking them (since they are more accessible on the WiFi) yet on the other had we already have the hallway (mobile project camera) that is on WiFi.
Administrative nightmare. If we have blurred cameras or time-out zones, who creates and controls the zones, and moves the cameras? I'm more concerned that we guarantee that all the camera microphones are disabled, as it's much harder to judge where you can say something and not have the camera overhear it.
Project Camera: Previously the *project camera* was the "up close and personal" camera. Either randomly moved around the lab (and, if necessary, easily avoided). But also at times a persona would intentionally moved the camera to feature a project they wanted to share.
Privacy: It's pretty rare, but if a person has a project that needs privacy, its incumbent on them to provide the privacy. Cover it up! Other people need to respect that privacy as well (no prying eyes). Cameras need not be of such high resolution, or aimed in such a manner, as to be able to read someone's notes, computer screen, or IC part numbers.
TV News: In recent years we've all seen reporters with zoom lenses focus on the embarrassing notes a idiot politician is carrying. We've also seen lazy or stupid reporters tout a titillating story, but then blur the footage. Often children's are blurred on a story about schools, yet the nearly identical story on a competing station feels no need to blur faces.
On a positive note: I sometimes see a friend at the lab and will drop in to lend them a hand. Or I might ask a favor of them, and save me a trip to the lab (check something, turn off something, etc.). It's also fun to generally see what people are working on, or see an interesting project evolve. Many times this leads to a helpful suggestion about a tool or technique (especially so with the laser, shop, or electronics area). Sometimes when repairing the laser, it's helpful to know who used it last, and what problems they encountered. We are supposed to be a community.
On a negative note: It's helpful, as others have also reported, to provide feedback to those that abuse the equipment, or leave a mess for others. (The laser log only works if people use it, and the same people that abuse equipment and leave messes are unlikely to log their work/mess). Countless times people have mentioned to me, "you won't believe what I saw X doing here on the camera last night".
Night Vision: The back hallway camera has good infrared capability that kicks in at night. The camera over the laser, and the one over the front door do not. And they are useless in dim light. Also the front door camera seems to have an auto iris problem such that it is sharp with good lighting, but blurry in even slightly reduced room light. It's so bad that myself and others, have puzzled over it to identify a person seen in the lab.
POE WiFi: It's a lot easier to install if these are POE camera, but we need to be sure they are all on the same standard. (That way we avoid all the second set of ugly wiring coiled up for the AC power adapters.) WiFi cameras might be even easier to install/maintain, but on the one hand we are concerned about someone hacking them (since they are more accessible on the WiFi) yet on the other had we already have the hallway (mobile project camera) that is on WiFi.
Administrative nightmare. If we have blurred cameras or time-out zones, who creates and controls the zones, and moves the cameras? I'm more concerned that we guarantee that all the camera microphones are disabled, as it's much harder to judge where you can say something and not have the camera overhear it.
Project Camera: Previously the *project camera* was the "up close and personal" camera. Either randomly moved around the lab (and, if necessary, easily avoided). But also at times a persona would intentionally moved the camera to feature a project they wanted to share.
Privacy: It's pretty rare, but if a person has a project that needs privacy, its incumbent on them to provide the privacy. Cover it up! Other people need to respect that privacy as well (no prying eyes). Cameras need not be of such high resolution, or aimed in such a manner, as to be able to read someone's notes, computer screen, or IC part numbers.
TV News: In recent years we've all seen reporters with zoom lenses focus on the embarrassing notes a idiot politician is carrying. We've also seen lazy or stupid reporters tout a titillating story, but then blur the footage. Often children's are blurred on a story about schools, yet the nearly identical story on a competing station feels no need to blur faces.
Mike Wolfson
Aug 23, 2021, 4:53:35 PM8/23/21
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I intend to take ownership of this project, and will add details about implementation plans to the proposal. So that
we have clarity before HYH.
-Mike
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Nate Plamondon
Aug 23, 2021, 5:15:51 PM8/23/21
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Keep in mind the cameras displayed on the live website are completely unrelated to the security cameras, and should probably stay that way. Different technologies and systems for different purposes. Happy to discuss details of that system offline, and Gabe should be involved in any security changes.
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Nate Plamondon
Nate Plamondon
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Mike Wolfson
Aug 24, 2021, 1:36:58 PM8/24/21
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Details Added:
Based on feedback, I added clarity to the proposal I made earlier, it still stands as proposed - but implementation details should address concerns.
Original Proposal:
Based on feedback, I added clarity to the proposal I made earlier, it still stands as proposed - but implementation details should address concerns.
Original Proposal:
I am proposing we purchase new cameras to replace the existing cameras we use for the live feed in the lab. Our current cameras are very low resolution, and it is difficult to see details of what is going on.
I am proposing we purchase 4 of these IP cameras, which should be very easy to integrate into our existing infrastructure. These cameras are $109 each, so this proposal is to allocate $450 total to this effort.
I am proposing we purchase 4 of these IP cameras, which should be very easy to integrate into our existing infrastructure. These cameras are $109 each, so this proposal is to allocate $450 total to this effort.
Details:
These cameras are intended to promote the lab and NOT for security: - ie "there's some shiny images for the website of people Doing Cool Things (or, at least, of the equipment used to Do Cool Things)," - the current security camera system will stay completely independent, just like it is now.
The cameras will feed into the same IP-based infrastructure we use for the current cameras - the cameras aren't able to be moved, and the images are not recorded anywhere. My proposal is to get better images for the live feed (just update that functionality as it currently exists).
Camera Positions (basically same as current positions)
1. Pointing at Lasers so people can see if they are in use
2. Pointing at 3D printers, so people can see if they are in use
3. Pointing into the lab from front corner of lab (either from the East or West corner)
4. Pointing into lab from back hallway.
We will keep the camera in fixed positions, and there WILL be camera free zones in the lab - I don't want to step on anyone's privacy, but I do intend these cameras to show activity in the lab, so people looking at the cameras can know to come down when they see cool things happening. I will put a sign up explaining that we have live cameras going (we probably need that anyway).
I don't want to entertain the idea of degrading public facing cameras, or creating ways to change the camera locations, or turn them off.
I will take responsibility for installing the cameras, and figuring out how to get them posting to our existing live feed.
The cameras will feed into the same IP-based infrastructure we use for the current cameras - the cameras aren't able to be moved, and the images are not recorded anywhere. My proposal is to get better images for the live feed (just update that functionality as it currently exists).
Camera Positions (basically same as current positions)
1. Pointing at Lasers so people can see if they are in use
2. Pointing at 3D printers, so people can see if they are in use
3. Pointing into the lab from front corner of lab (either from the East or West corner)
4. Pointing into lab from back hallway.
We will keep the camera in fixed positions, and there WILL be camera free zones in the lab - I don't want to step on anyone's privacy, but I do intend these cameras to show activity in the lab, so people looking at the cameras can know to come down when they see cool things happening. I will put a sign up explaining that we have live cameras going (we probably need that anyway).
I don't want to entertain the idea of degrading public facing cameras, or creating ways to change the camera locations, or turn them off.
I will take responsibility for installing the cameras, and figuring out how to get them posting to our existing live feed.
Antonio Contrisciani
Aug 24, 2021, 2:48:31 PM8/24/21
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As part of new signage we might want to put up signage informing people they are recorded for security purposes as well, to cover bases otherwise I think this is a great idea.
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Nate Plamondon
Aug 24, 2021, 10:27:21 PM8/24/21
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I dig. Thanks for clarifying, Mike!
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Nate Plamondon
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