PROPOSAL: Require an HYH vote for bylaws changes.

[Luis Montes]

PROPOSAL: Require an HYH vote for bylaws changes.

The community should vote on changes to the bylaws.

-Luis

[SM Newstead]

I made this proposal to the board a few years ago and they disagreed for very valid reasons. I'm not sure how I feel about this. 

1) quorum is hard to get

2) a bunch of new people who don't know much could make changes that disrupt our legal capacity. 

I'm open to dialog, but those are two concerns I forsee. 

[Sheldon McGee]

Would the board have to approve whatever bylaws were voted on? Like, could the board veto changes voted on at HYH?

I asked google why aren't ALL laws voted on by a democratic process. The answer is interesting (and it's below). One outcome of lawmaking by a democratic process is the "tyranny of the majority". And it's just funny to me because it seems the problem we are trying to solve with this change is "tyranny of the lawmakers".  Seems like this change would just be exchanging one problem for a set of new ones. 

Q: why are laws not just a pure democratic process?

A: "Laws in democratic societies aren't purely a democratic process because of the need for checks and balances, protection of minority rights, and the practicalities of lawmaking. A pure democratic process, where laws are directly voted on by the people, can lead to the tyranny of the majority, where minority rights are disregarded. Instead, democratic systems incorporate mechanisms like representative government, judicial review, and constitutional limitations to ensure a more balanced and just legal system. "

Sheldon

Sheldon

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[Luis Montes]

On Sun, Apr 13, 2025 at 11:31 AM Sheldon McGee <sheldo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Would the board have to approve whatever bylaws were voted on? Like, could the board veto changes voted on at HYH?

The board members are free to vote on proposals at HYH just like the rest of the members can.  I won't vote for giving the board veto rights if my proposal passes.

 

I asked google why aren't ALL laws voted on by a democratic process. The answer is interesting (and it's below). One outcome of lawmaking by a democratic process is the "tyranny of the majority". And it's just funny to me because it seems the problem we are trying to solve with this change is "tyranny of the lawmakers".  Seems like this change would just be exchanging one problem for a set of new ones. 

Q: why are laws not just a pure democratic process?

A: "Laws in democratic societies aren't purely a democratic process because of the need for checks and balances, protection of minority rights, and the practicalities of lawmaking. A pure democratic process, where laws are directly voted on by the people, can lead to the tyranny of the majority, where minority rights are disregarded. Instead, democratic systems incorporate mechanisms like representative government, judicial review, and constitutional limitations to ensure a more balanced and just legal system. "

We're a non profit with less than a hundred paying members and no one on a payroll.  I personally don't think these types of analogies work for us.

 

Sheldon

Sheldon

On Sat, Apr 12, 2025 at 3:55 PM SM Newstead <smpne...@gmail.com> wrote:

I made this proposal to the board a few years ago and they disagreed for very valid reasons. I'm not sure how I feel about this. 

1) quorum is hard to get

2) a bunch of new people who don't know much could make changes that disrupt our legal capacity. 

I'm open to dialog, but those are two concerns I forsee. 

On Saturday, April 12, 2025 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-7 monteslu wrote:

PROPOSAL: Require an HYH vote for bylaws changes.

The community should vote on changes to the bylaws.

-Luis

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[Jeff Sittler]

2025-05-15 Board Meeting Results for proposal:

Notes: It seems everyone agrees that changes need to be approved by HYH before it goes to the board.

Vote: Yea: 4 Nay: 0

[Brett Neese]

Although already good law, I have just officially codified this into our bylaws. The board agreed that to avoid ambiguity this change required consolidating the first amendment (requiring proposed amendments to be brought to the board) with this amendment (requiring that they first be brought to the membership) -- you can see the diff here. To avoid confusion or impropriety, we took an internal poll on the specific language and settled on the following:

1. Proposed amendments to these bylaws shall be submitted in electronic writing to the membership through the proposal process outlined in section 6 and subject to the same rules and procedures including, but not limited to, a non-binding vote by members at a membership meeting. This procedure applies to all proposed amendments or changes to these bylaws, including those initiated by the Board of Directors. Following membership review, the proposed amendment shall be submitted in physical or electronic writing to the Board of Directors. At a meeting of the Board of Directors, a majority vote of the full quorum of officers of the Board of Directors will be required for the amendment to become enacted and effective upon completing the vote.

I understand that some people may be confused or even upset about the "non-binding" clause. As secretary, it is my responsibility to codify what the record shows in accordance to what the previous board passed, which is clearly outlined in the meeting minutes above. Note that this change does not reflect a substantive change to our bylaws -- it was already good law, as seen above -- it only updates the text of the bylaws to reflect the change that was already agreed upon.

Thank you.

Brett