Suggestions on spending the $1500 grant for the woodshop

[Marita Ogden]

We have received the $1000 grant from my company that I applied for to upgrade the woodshop.  There is also the $500 I donated in December which now totals $1500 to buy additional tools for the woodshop.  It has been a while since we discussed which ones would be best and I think it would be good to start fresh and revisit what additional tools would benefit the community the most and be the least disruptive.  (Space, sawdust and power)

I like using the miter saw and the table saw out back.  (Although I haven't done it in the summer yet).  There seems to be less impact to the shop in back by keeping the sawdust outside. There is more room to work and we can keep them under the bench when not in use. 

I would like to make the impact of the new tools along the same lines.

I would like to hear suggestions during the next week.  Then I take everyone's feedback and write a proposal to see if the community is willing to accept the proposed upgrade.

Off the top of my head, some things I would like to see:

* a decent air compressor in the space along with a nailer and perhaps one or two other tools to go with it. 
* a nice scroll saw
* maybe a sander of some sort
* perhaps upgrade a couple of our hand tools. (Basic tools that we use a lot should be durable and high quality)
* a jointer would be nice but I am concerned about space and portability (would also eat up a big part of the budget)

[Nate Caine]

Marita,

I don't remember all the details of the financing for this project, but how much of the $1500 ($1000 + $500 that you outlined above) is available for these future purchases and how much was previously spent on the table saw and miter saw?

---------------

I think a sander along the lines of the one that Brian had temporarily loaned would be a good addition.  (We never actually got to use it, I'm just thinking about that general size and configuration -- belt and disc).  

I've seen several occasions where that would have been handy.  With saw dust issues, it--too--will need some sort of portable arrangement to take it outside for use.

Nate

[Marita O]

The table saw and miter saw were spent from heatsync general funds.  So none of this money has been previously spent.

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[Ryan Mcdermott]

I think a good air compressor would be a great addition to the lab.  The ability to use some air tools would be awesome.

I wonder about power, though.   I think big air compressors use a lot of it when the pump turns on.

Agree with Nate about the sander.

Random tools that would be cool:
biscuit joiner.
new saw horses
my sister showed me something this weekend called a "kreg jig"; they're really damn cool, but about $100.
A bigger, free standing drill press.

Honestly, our wood shop is /pretty damn well/ equipped right now.

I also suggest putting some money into a fund for future consumables.

[Jacob Rosenthal]

Now that it appears we're staying at 140, I suggest discussion about how to better use the outside back area. External lighting? a Pod storage container? more tables work area. Power outlets?

[Chad Stearns]

I would use the hell out of planer, jointer, wood lathe, or belt/disc sander.

Thanks Marita!

-Chad

[Corey Renner]

If there's a decent air-compressor, then we could get a sandblast cabinet.  They're very useful and not the type of thing that everyone's got in their garage at home.  Power's going to be a problem though.

cheers,

c

[Jerry Davis]

+1 to chad's suggestion

And a couple more 18 volt drills with extra batteries

Plus a biscuit cutter

[Jerry Davis]

Sorry biscuit joiner

[Marita Ogden]

These are all good suggestions. And I am still looking for more, but currently I am leaning toward adding these:

*Air compressor (as good as our power can handle)
*Air nailer
*Sander
"Buicuit joiner

They will fill holes in what we currently have.

With the rest of the budget, we can either get one really nice tool, like a planer or we can spend it on things to make it easier to use what we have.  Things like Jacob suggested.
Power outlets and lights in back. Saw horses. More clamps etc.
I am also thinking about subsidizing some workshops where tools would be demonstrated.  Not necessarily building a project, but the participants would get a chance to operate each tool on scrap lumber and get familiar with them.

We may be better getting the best out of what we have before we add more large tools. Although the grant program is changing this fall, I will be able to apply for a new grant each year.

[Tony Brenke]

Sanding is the largest time sink in woodworking. The air compresser is good but the rest are detail use items. Avoid the belt and disk sanders as they will leave sanding marks. Orbital sanders are better options IMO. 

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Another great purchase for us would be this combo: http://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-2691-22-18-Volt-Compact-Impact/dp/B001F7BIMG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1369589610&sr=8-2&keywords=Milwaukee+18v

Milwaukee makes really good quality stuff that will last us a very long time (and has a good warranty).

A good drill (Jeremy recently donated us a new black and decker cordless drill, but that will likely wear out in a couple of years like the last one did.  The milwaukee would last a lot longer), and an impact driver are very useful sortof "core" tools to have around.

We can also use the 18v battery (the most expensive part of the thing) on other milwaukee tools, which look to be around $100 each.

[Marita O]

Ryan,

I agree that I would like to see good quality "core" tools that will last a long time. Especially the basics. I think it was Jerry that said something to the effect that you can cry once when you buy it or cry every time you use it.

I personally buy corded drivers at home, because my use so so sporadic, it is easier to get a cord out than worry if the battery is charged when I need it.  Plus as you said the battery is the most expensive thing.  But the lab is different.

I also like the 5 year warranty.

Would you go for that over a biscuit joiner?

Marita

[Will Bradley]

Speaking of sanders we have a handheld belt sander. Incidentally, it got left out back and was hanging around the back door last I saw it.

Maybe in some cases we just need more visibility/organization for our hand tools?

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Marita: that's a tough question...

A biscuit jointer is a pretty specific tool, that really only does one thing, whereas a drill and impact driver are /very/ versatile.

We DO have drills already, so it's a tossup.  I think that the lab would see more use out of a drill than a biscuit jointer, though.

(But we already have one...which makes it a tossup).

[Marita O]

Ryan, That is EXACTLY what I see as one of the problems that the woodshop has.  "We have one. Maybe several, but how do we get rid of a working tool that someone donated, even though we have several that are similar? So we will keep them all here under a bench."  So someone comes in and has too many choices and doesn't know where to begin.

Maybe we should step back a moment and try to figure out what we want to accomplish.

While we were waiting for the grant money I have done a lot of thinking on my vision for the woodshop and what I wanted to accomplish with the grant money. Stating them here may help in narrowing down suggestions. Also you can let me know if it is way off base from the rest of the community.

The most important thing I would like to accomplish is to make it more welcoming to the novice wood worker.

We have a lot a basic hand tools.  Maybe too many in some cases as people have generously donated tools when they upgraded their own.  We have only a few that were bought out right for the lab like the one that Jeremy donated.

I think it would be better to have a simplified set of quality core tools which are well organized.  Maybe a couple of specialty tools also because let's face it if you weren't interested in gadgets and tools you wouldn't be a member of HSL.  I would rather see a woodshop in which 20 people feel comfortable making a basic box (not all at once), than 2 or 3 people being able to make a dining room table.

So I would like to organize and reduce some of the clutter of the basic hand tools by upgrading tools in which we may have lower end model in , buy at least 1 or 2 things we don't have, and help more people get comfortable with the tools that are in the shop already.

I recently remodeled my kitchen and when I unpacked it, I realized that 90% on the time I used 10% of the kitchen tools.  So I paired it down to about 20% of what I had before.  That made my kitchen much more enjoyable and usable than the remodel did.

We are limited on space and we need to make some hard choices about what stays and what goes and what new things get added.

[Tony Brenke]

Martia,
  That was exactly my point. Your basic wood shop needs a table saw, a radial arm or cutoff saw, orbital sander and belt sander. Hand tools cover most everything else except for specality equipment. But those items are not used 90% of the time.

[Chad Stearns]

Do we have a belt sander? Now I am really confusing myself. I know we have a couple of those vibrating pad sanders.

Anyway, those big old belt/disc sanders are stationary, and aggressive. Which makes them pretty useful. Also, if you have something with a flat side, you can use the disc part to get a 90 degree angle.

-Chad

[Marita O]

Tony,

 

Thanks for your input. This is a good discussion.

 

But I am not clear on this statement:

 

"Hand tools cover most everything else except for specality equipment. But those items are not used 90% of the time."

 

Which items are not used 90% of the time?  The hand tools, the specality equipment or the major power tools?

 

Of the items you listed as esential (both hand and major power tools)  how much of the time would you say those get used?

 

[Jerry Davis]

yeah. on second thought. a biscuit joiner is not much good without a jointer.

a biscuit joiner is used to join planks together to make a larger surfaced plank. it can be done without a biscuit joiner (but they are so nice -- I used to have a Bosch). but neither the old fashioned method nor the biscuit joiner will do any good at all unless the joint is absolutely straight to begin with -- hence the jointer.

but a jointer is heavy (or should be fairly heavy) equipment. and not subject to moving around.

so unless we can get a jointer and find a place for it that won't change ...

jerry

 

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[Nate Caine]

Air nailers tend to be on the dangerous side.  The big ones best for home construction.  The small ones more for production environments.

So if you do decide to pursue this, make certain it has the interlock the requires it to be firmly pressed against the surface before it can fire.

Lots of pictures on the Internet of people firing a nail thru their hands, feet, skulls, etc.

[Nate Caine]

I agree that we have a bit of clutter, but a few reasons to keep some of the lower end tools:

I'd rather start them off on something low cost, and move them up to the quality stuff once them have some experience under their belt.

If they break the cheap stuff, it's probably cheap to fix as well.  Otherwise toss it out.

(Currently we have a portable power hand planer, and someone struck a nail with it, so the three blades are nicked.  So it's basically shot, and there it sits.)

[Nate Caine]

It's a minor purchase, but we probably need some decent bar clamps.

Because the Harbor Freight ones that we had, were--after all--Harbor Freight quality and therefore broken.

[Chad Stearns]

Seconding clamps, its basically a rule that we cannot have enough clamps. I think our clamp supply has been slowly dwindling.

Also, its a shame the hand planer doesnt work, I just noticed (and was excited by) that today.

-Chad

[Ryan Mcdermott]

third for more clamps.  Those nice blue ones are perfect.

[Tony Brenke]

"Which items are not used 90% of the time?"

  a joiner is not used most of the time. A planer, while nice for specialty jobs, is not use most of the time. most of your lumber is used in the size it was bought.

I'm speaking from my experience in my parents cabinet shop 20 years ago. they made some very impressive works of art with the simple power tools that I listed along with a wood shaper and bits for the custom molding.

 

--

[Tony Brenke]

bar clamps are a must.

On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 8:31 PM, Nate Caine <nate...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's a minor purchase, but we probably need some decent bar clamps.

Because the Harbor Freight ones that we had, were--after all--Harbor Freight quality and therefore broken.

[Tony Brenke]

forgot to add a wood router also.

https://www.google.com/search?q=woor+roughter&oq=woor+roughter&aqs=chrome.0.57j0l2j5.19622j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=wood+router&sa=X&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&ei=CPyiUZvQLKfH0gGXqYD4CA&ved=0CDoQsxg&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.47008514,d.dmQ&fp=b0f46b2426e2157b&biw=1680&bih=935

[Nate Caine]

We probably need one of these:

Woodturning with 150hp lathe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4qB6n1cm04

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Oh my god this is the most northwoods thing I have ever seen in my life.

[Marita O]

I love the disclaimer of "No matter how stupid you are... Don't try this at home"

[Jerry Davis]

and I thought the red green show was comedy. it was a REALITY show!!!!

[Chad Stearns]

Reminds me a bit of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Mod_92VZA

Guy lathes down 600 pound piece of wood

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Some men just want to watch the wood turn.

[JR]

Amateur.  We need a lathe like the one used here:

http://www.proserpinewoodturners.com/The_Big_Bowl.html

As for core woodworking tools, the jointer, planer, table saw, and bandsaw are about as core as they get.

If you're looking to put together a woodshop, we have a tablesaw and a bandsaw, and while both could be improved I'd favor a jointer and planer first.  You need those tools to have flat/square wood with parallel sides,which are usually a prerequisite  effective woodworking at all.

Until the lab gets them, I have a reasonably well equipped woodshop I'll let people come by and use.

Clamps are always a good investment.  As are fundamental handtools - planes, spokeshaves, chisels, (and the tools to maintain them like sharpening stones).

We're still stuck with very limited space and poor power though.

On Monday, May 27, 2013 9:26:32 AM UTC-7, Nate Caine wrote:

[Brian Aday]

The hard question is not what to buy, but what do we have room for. I suggest the first step is to organize a meet-up to sit down and design a space efficient back shop with the tools we have. 

If any woodworking is done inside (especially sanding) you will need to address how we are going to protect the metalworking tools from the sawdust.  If we are going to use the parking space out back everything has to be portable. Add a couple of canopies and large stand mounted fans to your list.

The belt on the belt/disk sander will produce a lot of dust that is difficult to catch. I would suggest  a spindle sander/disk combo. 

We should stay away from oil-less air compressors. They are uncomfortably loud and not durable. They also use a lot of power. 

When you say an air nailer, I assume you mean 'brad' nailer. The Bosch nailers I own include a very sensitive lock to prevent misfire. My gut tells me stay away from cheap imports. 

Jerry read my mind, you don't generally need a biscuit jointer if you don't have a jointer to straiten the edge of the board. A pocket screw jig performs the same function at ~$60, and IMO creates a stronger joint.

[Larry Campbell]

We COULD make a medium version of the big bowl lathe with half of a small car axle (cut the other half off and cap it letting one axle ride in the differential alone) and have some small "outriggers" (I have an obscene amount of 5/8 threaded rod and some nuts that could be used to make those) to raise it up off casters so it would be portable yet stable...

I agree that dust management / collection inside would be impractical, working outside is the way to go.

I would love to see a good wood lathe, with a bowl plate.... I have access to a lathe for a few days a year in Oregon when I am on vacation, and I have a few incompleted projects that are rough turned and need a few hours to finish them.

LC

[JR]

I pinged this guy some time ago:
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/tls/3699910627.html

To see if he'd be interested in donating his dust collector.  At the time, he wasn't.  But his price has come from $1000 to $500, and now disappeared completely.  Might be worth another shot.

On the need for portability, I agree.

On biscuit jointers vs pocket screws- I mostly agree, but there are times where
1) you're really after alignment, not strength
2) You don't want anything to show.
In these cases you want a biscuit jointer.

If we want a bunch of clamps, we could put together a build day and build a bunch of simple cam clamps.

[JR]

Larry-

My lathe is only a 12" swing delta, but if you want to spend some time on it drop me a line.

Otherwise, building a larger lathe specifically for bowls is on my list.

[Jerry Davis]

yep. I agree with JR, when I put together my woodworking shop 20 years ago.

these were the first 4 items that I bought: jointer, planer, table saw, and bandsaw

our problem is two fold: in this order: space, and power. SPACE mostly.

you can't go moving a jointer around. they are back wrenching. Although 20 years ago I could handle it. Now I can't.

As far as power goes, I had all 110 stuff. not 220. The tablesaw though sucked up much more power than any other tool I had (it was a Delta Contractors [couldn't afford the UniSaw :-( ] )

jerry

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[JR]

Jerry-

Thinking on this a bit more, what about a 4" short bed jointer?
Like:
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/tls/3835192467.html
Just have to avoid the toy ones that are half plastic.

That should be light enough to move around, and would let users handle most projects.
Building something large like a bed is out, as is face jointing anything wide, but it would be a start.
It should be short enough to store under a bench. 

And if someone needs a longer/wider jointer they can ask those who have them.

Add in some hand planes (including a #7 and some winding sticks) and you could make up to a decent sized table top.

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Guys, let's try to keep this thread from going too far off topic like the last woodshop ones did.

As I see it, Marita is asking a pretty straighforward question here.

Marita, here is what I propose:

Budget $500 of the money for future consumables.  Sawblades, tool repair, etc.

Budget $400 towards a quality air compressor.

Budget $300 towards a benchtop disk/belt sander.

Budget $100 towards quality clamps

Budget $200 towards a replacement for our cordless drill.  I like the 18v milwaukee stuff, because it buys us into milwaukee's ecosystem, which I think is good.

If we can agree on this toolset, we can start talking about which specific individual tools to buy.

Marita, as I see it, this is money that you secured, and the decision, while *technically* requiring a board vote, is effectively yours.  If you approve this toolset, or a different one, we can start looking at individual tools, and that would be a good thing.

-Ryan

[Jerry Davis]

unless we can store the compressor outside, and run hosing in through the building, I would rather not have that.

[Chad Stearns]

This really should go to a HYH. 

Donations like this come with commitments on Heatsync's behalf. In this case, even though we are all welcoming of Marita and Medtronic's donation, we are being obligated to buying wood tools by accepting this donation. We need to sit down and agree to that obligation, otherwise we run into problems later on during other donations. 

-Chad

[Larry Campbell]

A good set of wheels makes a difference... I welded up a couple monster engine carts that could actually go through gravel so I could move my 440s and my old 426 around when working on cars in the yard.

If something is procured that is a little heavy just make sure some money is set aside for some good sized casters.

LC

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 10:28:34 AM UTC-7, jdawgaz wrote:

[Marita O]

Ryan,

I think the $400 towards an air compressor is a good start. If we want to start looking at those that would be great. That is probably going to be the tightest on power. Should we start a thread just for that? I would like Austin's input on that also. A wheelbarrow type would probably be good. I think it will be worth paying for efficiency and one that is quiet.

I don't think $100 in clamps will get us very far.  I would think we would want to increase that to $200 or $300.

I am still doing research on sanders. 

I would like to see if we can repair that hand planner.  If we order blades for it, we might as well get extras. I need to get the model number and look it up.

I would also like to look at the hand tools that we have and see if we can organize the and take inventory. Maybe we can separate the beginning tools from the better tools.

I am not completely sold on the expensive drill.  It seemed like there were already a lot of drills under the bench.

Nate suggested building some drawers under the workbench for tools.  I would also like to build a ramp for the back stairs that is temporary.  You only put it down when moving the tools in and out.  99% of the time it will be put away.  Good quality castors/wheels are a great idea also. 

I am still quite busy at work for another two weeks, so my time for research is limited, but I really appreciate all of the discussion and suggestions.

[JR]

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/tls/3834065304.html
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/tls/3820735463.html
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/tls/3835701868.html

If you want an air compressor, grab one of these and save the balance for clamps.

[Will Bradley]

Regarding clamps, I bought a couple of these last year but one seems to have wandered off:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Irwin-24-in-Bar-Clamp-and-Spreader-524QCN/202214076#.Uavyx9LVC1g

[Ryan Mcdermott]

I think we all agree that an air compressor would be a good purchase.

Does anybody have a recommendation for a specific model? I think we
should buy new, and should avoid Craigslist.

Not just because those are all used, but because they would require us
to buy very quickly, and it wouldn't allow us to use HYH.

[JR]

There's no reason you can't use HYH and purchase from Craigslist - just write the proposal carefully.  And there's always a number of them available on craigslist, it's not like a smoking deal on a lathe that will be gone tomorrow.

You can debate the merits of new vs used, but used usually gives you much better bang for your $. 

Either way, I'd suggest an oiled compressor- much quieter.

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Bump -

To start: Can we agree that $450 towards an air compressor is a good
move? If so, I'll start looking for one so that we can make a
proposal

Additionally: propose that we allocate $500 to future consumables for
the woodshop (meaning: saw blades, sand paper, etc.)

Marita: thoughts?

[Chad Stearns]

We discussed this a bit at tonights HYH. It seemed like we all reflected positively on the future of this proposal. There have been a lot of good ideas thrown around this thread, but as to which tools will be proposes is still ambiguous. There might need to be more discussion to make that less ambiguous.

I personally look forward to the proposal being proposed. I bet any individual could put forward a well constructed list of tools, especially after we have all expressed our thoughts in this thread.

Future consumables

For whatever its worth, as of this month, stations have organized budgets meant to cover consumables and maintenance.

-Chad. 

[Brian Aday]

I am confused, this is Marita's targeted donation to be spent in accordance with her wishes. Why are you doing a HYH proposal? 

The last time I talked to her, she told me this was all on hold until she had time to deal with it. 

[Jacob Rosenthal]

This thread is almost month old. I would venture to guess Ryan is trying to move it forward. Perhaps you know how to contact Marita to see if she approves of the discussion here?

[Brian Aday]

You can try email, but she stated she would need 3 weeks because of an uptick in her work schedule. I think it would be polite to respect her wishes.

I would like to point out the name of this thread is:

 "Suggestions on spending the $1500 grant for the woodshop"

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Brian, you missed the HYH where this was discussed, and then must have
not even read the entirety of my post:

I'm asking this as a question to Marita because of exactly what Jake said.

Last night at HYH this was talked about (a good reason to show up to
those, by the way, is to hear the in person discussions that you
champion so heavily).

We talked about this thread, and the status of the woodshop. One of
the things that I brought up was that while we don't technically
*need* to, this should all be Marita's project, and she should get the
last say.

Also, I know you refuse to read the mailing list (except...right now?)
but here it is, right at the top of the thread:

>I would like to hear suggestions during the next week. Then I take everyone's feedback and write a proposal to see if the community is willing to accept the proposed upgrade.

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Jacob Rosenthal
<jakero...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Brian: stop stirring the freaking pot. There is no controversy here.
Read the thread. We're just having a discussion.

[Brian Aday]

I read the thread, which is why I am confused. Why do you need a HYH proposal to spend Marita's targeted donation? 

[Brian Aday]

It seems to me, that when she is ready Marita will make a proposal and HSL will decide if they want what she is offering. 

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Brian, knock it off. If you want to have ANOTHER thread about how
Heatsync Labs works, start one, or maybe show up to HYH. This one is
being used to discuss some tools we want to buy.

Please, PLEASE just let us keep this discussion going.

And so in that direction: I think we all agree that a solid air
compressor is a good purchase.

Howabout some suggestions? I think that $450 is a good price point to start at.

Marita also mentioned a nail gun? Does anybody know a good
brand/pricepoint? If not I can start searching amazon...

[Ryan Mcdermott]

From some quick searching, it looks like there is two classes of guns
we could get.

The first one is about $60, and the second is about $180. It looks to
have a much larger magazine on it (not sure if that is the right
word?).

This looks like a great option nailer:
http://www.amazon.com/Hitachi-NT50AE2-18-Gauge-8-Inch-2-Inch/dp/B000H399PC/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

[Ryan Mcdermott]

And then this looks like a really solid air compressor:

http://www.amazon.com/Porter-PXCMF226VW-26-Gallon-Electric-Compressor/dp/B0083FBEAY/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

What might be cool is to put the actual compressor upstairs, and then
plumb air lines all over the shop downstairs.

That would address the noise issues really well, I think.

[Brian Aday]

Very positive tone Ryan. 

[Ryan Mcdermott]

I know we ran air lines all over our shop at work, and I think I
remember it being pretty cheap/easy to do. The only issue with it is
that water can condense in the lines (I've been sprayed by them a
couple of times, haha).

The other problem is that the guys that do paint work (we have a body
shop) don't like this setup because tiny bits of moisture get in the
lines and screw up their paint. I don't /think/ we plan on becoming a
body shop anytime soon, so I don't see that as an issue.

[Chad Stearns]

The reason why we need to do an HYH proposal is because there are conditions attached to this donation (those being that we have to spend this money on wood tools). If Marita and her employer had given us a donation with no strings attached, a proposal would not be necessary. Because it is targeted, there are conditions Heatsync needs to get together and formally accept the offer. I know it seems trivial, of course we are willing to accept money that must be spent on wood tools, but the conditions might be different. What if a company offered to donate in exchange for a dedicated corner of the lab? Or, what if someone offered to donate money in exchange for advertising rights? I think it would obviously not be acceptable to say its the advertisers decision as to whether we accept their offer. These arent hypothetical examples, we have received these offers in the past.

I think Ryan is right in saying there is no controversy here. We all think this is a really gracious donation, it shouldnt be difficult to pass the proposal at all. Who has anything to worry about?

-Chad

[Brian Aday]

Thanks Chad for answering the question rather than trying to shut down the discussion. 

I talked to Marita, she believes that a compressor would be good for HSL and sees consensus within the group on that purchase. So this thread has moved from the original topic and has begun filling in the details of what the community suggests she buy, who is responsible for maintaining it, how the issue of power will be addressed, how it will be installed, and where in HSL it will be located (Basically Will's Guidelines for tool proposals). What I read was, "I propose $450 be spent on some type of compressor using Marita's funds."

So I will give it time to evolve. I agree, it shouldn't be difficult to pass in that form once the legwork is done. 

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Does anybody have an idea for a good size?  I want to use air tools, and I know those require a lot of air... (out of my element here)

[Ryan Mcdermott]

$100 doesn't get us very far on clamps?  what would be a good figure for that?

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Oh, by the way: the reason I want to use air tools is that they're really really cheap.  you can pick them up used for next to nothing all over the place (for instance: ultimate consignment)

[Corey Renner]

It's usually best to figure out which tools you expect to use first, then decide on the compressor.  Remember also that the air consumption ratings on tools are total BS.  They're an expected average amount of consumption over a full work-shift.  In other words, shite.  Generally, if you multiply the number by 3 or 4, you'll get the actual air usage.  So a tool that claims 2cfm is probably 6-8.  If your air compressor isn't at least that number and the tool is used continuously, eventually the compressor can't keep up and you need to stop and wait for it.  By far, the biggest use of air tends to be sandblasting.  Coincidentally, this is also the capability I'd most like to see at HSL.  One of those little Harbor Freight blast cabinets is a very useful thing.  You can remove paint/rust etc, etch any material, give a nice finish to machined parts, etc.  Very useful.  For a blast cabinet that's going to see any decent amount of use, I'd definitely go with a 2-stage compressor like the CL one I posted yesterday, otherwise you'd constantly wait for the air to catch up.  Two stages are the quietest, followed by the belt/oil single stages, and the oiless are the noisiest/crappiest.

 

If possible, I'd put a compressor and blast cabinet outside.

 

cheers,

c

http://coreyrenner.tumblr.com/

[Ryan Mcdermott]

The one you linked yesterday was 240v, unfortunately.  I imagine that we would want to keep it plugged it all the time, right?  (again out of my element)

[Chad Stearns]

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Jorgensen-36-in-Bar-Clamp-3736-4PK/100194308#.UbyWpPmyBg8

Hoam Di'Peau lists some 36 inch clamps for about $14. Some of these would do us well, but diversity is key when it comes to clamps. A few really long ones, and maybe a few of those wider reach ones too.

Like this one:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Adjustable-Clamp-48-in-Aluminum-Bar-Clamp-3548-2PK/203598172#.UbyXTvmyBg8

Or this one:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Irwin-12-in-Wood-Clamp-226800DS/100564632#.UbyXkvmyBg8

-Chad

[Anna Gault]

I feel like external lighting and a cheap-ass table (not a woodworking bench necessarily, I could do a recycled pallet table for super cheap) for painting stuff on/projects that use stuff like WD40 and paint remover. Right now what I paint on/lubricate bearings/etc. on is a tarp on the ground, and I think other people do the same. The ability to use certain chemical-y products is something the lab lacks, because nobody wants to suffocate and/or be poisoned (naturally). Thus, an outdoor painting table/area would be rad. 

On Saturday, May 25, 2013 3:41:20 PM UTC-7, Jacob Rosenthal wrote:

Now that it appears we're staying at 140, I suggest discussion about how to better use the outside back area. External lighting? a Pod storage container? more tables work area. Power outlets?

On Saturday, May 25, 2013 2:15:29 PM UTC-7, Ryan "gibson_" wrote:

I think a good air compressor would be a great addition to the lab.  The ability to use some air tools would be awesome.

I wonder about power, though.   I think big air compressors use a lot of it when the pump turns on.

Agree with Nate about the sander.

Random tools that would be cool:
biscuit joiner.
new saw horses
my sister showed me something this weekend called a "kreg jig"; they're really damn cool, but about $100.
A bigger, free standing drill press.

Honestly, our wood shop is /pretty damn well/ equipped right now.

I also suggest putting some money into a fund for future consumables.

On May 25, 2013 3:37 PM, "Nate Caine" <nate...@gmail.com> wrote:

Marita,

I don't remember all the details of the financing for this project, but how much of the $1500 ($1000 + $500 that you outlined above) is available for these future purchases and how much was previously spent on the table saw and miter saw?

---------------

I think a sander along the lines of the one that Brian had temporarily loaned would be a good addition.  (We never actually got to use it, I'm just thinking about that general size and configuration -- belt and disc).  

I've seen several occasions where that would have been handy.  With saw dust issues, it--too--will need some sort of portable arrangement to take it outside for use.

Nate

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Marita, can you chime in here please? I think at least an air
compressor is useful, and if we can't get one in the lab via this, I
think it would be useful to know that. That way we can look at other
ways of getting one (sync starter, proposal, etc.).

[Ryan Mcdermott]

(I think your response didn't make it to the mailing list, by the way.
Anybody following along: expand my message to see Marita's response).

Looking around Amazon, it sounds like the oil-free ones are quieter...
Are the oiled machines more expensive/higher end?

(That question is for everybody, by the way, not just Marita).

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Marita O <arizon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ryan,
>
> I have a lot going on at work today and could not scan the entire thread.
> My quick thoughts are yes an air compressor is a good idea. If you can find
> a model number to propose I would appreciate it.
>
> I agree with an oil one. I am not sure what our power limitations are. Also
> not sure where we would put it. I am open to suggestions.
>
> I think that $500 towards consumables is quit a lot. That is 1/3 of the
> entire budget. I think that is excessive since most stations have a budget
> already. The donation was targeted to upgrade the woodshop, not for
> operations.
>
> If we want to target some for specific repairs like the hand held planner,
> that might work.
>
> I am sorry I couldn't make it to the last HYH but I should be able to make
> it to the next one.
>
> BTW, Ryan, putting my name as the first word in the post really helped me to
> know I needed to answer quickly. Thanks!

[Ryan Mcdermott]

How about this one: DEWALT D55168

http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-D55168-120-Volt-Electric-Compressor/dp/B000HZI6F4/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1371586592&sr=8-9&keywords=Air+Compressor

It's oil-free, but it says that it's tested at 78dba, and some quick
googling says that's comparable to a washing machine.

If this was stored upstairs/in the back shop (there is some space next
to the lathe [against the east wall]), I think the noise would be a
non-issue, and I think the space wouldn't be an issue either.

[JR]

Ryan-

Why don't you come down and listen to my compressor- it's an oilless about the size of the one you linked, and it's in an attached shed so you could compare the noise with it on the other side of a wall and then stand next to it.

As for oilless vs oiled- I bought mine before I learned the differences, but in general my understanding is that oiled ones will last longer.  And having been near an oiled one in operation it was more of a steady "chug chug" noise than the high speed loud noise of my oilless one.  Think about the  "old small pump motor" and "lawn mower".  I did a bit of digging on YouTube and found this video that compares 2 HF compressors and a Campbell Hausfeld  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSwXKDg4hVg  as well as this video that appears to show the model you're looking at:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP673jIIL3Y

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Awesome info, JR, thanks.

[JR]

One other thing to remember is the cost of the pipes and fittings.  You don't want to use PVC for air compressor lines (they shatter creating shrapnel).   A quick look at HD shows 1/2" copper pipe as roughly $1/ft so this could easily be another $100+, and to run a connection outside I'd use something other than copper because of the theft problem.  Iron 3/4" shows as about $1.70/ft at HD.

OTOH- I still say used is a better value.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZc27p/h_d2/Navigation?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&searchRedirect=air+compressor&redAB=B#/?c=1&bi=bi

vs:

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/pts/3861323896.html
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/tls/3879443378.html
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/tls/3879443378.html
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/tls/3839819878.html

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Marita,

I found this one at Home Depot today:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-60-Gal-Stationary-Electric-Air-Compressor-C601H/203187350#.UcdDivbF2fs

$439 - Oiled pump. 60 gals.

Sounds pretty good...

[Marita O]

Ryan,

This looks like it runs on 230V. We wouldn't be able to use it when the lathe or laser are in use.

Marita

[Ryan Mcdermott]

Ah. Missed that. I guess we didn't look closely enough when we were
at Home Depot today.

It sounds like 110V and oil-free kindof go hand in hand. I haven't
seen one that is oiled and ALSO 110V, have any of you guys reading the
thread?

So, maybe we won't be able to get an oiled one?

[Austin Kipp]

Sorry for not responding earlier let me see if I can help this thread along. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned A router. The lab has a router. As far as outdoor lighting I told several board members that as soon as our lease was re-upped that I would be installing outdoor lighting. So I wouldn't worry about that. In regards to a temporary  ramp for the back stairs. I will work on this to see if I can make one light enough that it can be moved around yet strong enough that it could handle the equipment and a person going up as well as being able to handle being picked up and set down over and over again. In regards to putting an air compressor outback. Although I believe this is the best place for it and believe that I can build protection for it. its getting power to the outside that is the challenge. I have some ideas but I always welcome new ones. As far as water in it long run Pneumatic airlines this is an issue but what is usually done to compensate for this is that the outlet's are the lowest part of the system. A moisture filters put in at the end. These are usually relatively cheap and remove more than adequate amounts of moisture to work with all non-paint Air tools(additional filters needed for painters usually at the entrance the paint gun
). 110v oiled compressors are available. The last air compressor I had lasted me five years under extreme abuse. I purchased it from harbor freight similar model today cost about $177.They usually go on sale for $140-$150 it's 21 gallon 2.5 hp 4.7 CFM @90psi. Now  Corey is right. If we're going get heavily into air tools then we need to think about a compressor  they can deliver more air, but seeing as we have no air tools and most the air tools proposed with the exception of the hand sander are of low air requirements this size compressor would be able to handle that. they're definitely not the quietest compressors though. As far as load my compressor ran three lines and we were all using Brad Naylor simultaneously compressor did run continuously but we never dropped below are working air pressure. The only concern is the concern that we've had for a long time. Power in  the entire shop is run off of a single 20A breaker. Which includes any tools we are to run off extension cords outside. I have some ideas to remedy this as well if anyone would like to help me with this. I will  be working on it after this weeks HYH meeting. Hope this information. Will help clear up some issues mentioned here.


Thanks,
Austin Kipp

On Saturday, May 25, 2013 1:01:35 PM UTC-7, Marita Ogden wrote:

We have received the $1000 grant from my company that I applied for to upgrade the woodshop.  There is also the $500 I donated in December which now totals $1500 to buy additional tools for the woodshop.  It has been a while since we discussed which ones would be best and I think it would be good to start fresh and revisit what additional tools would benefit the community the most and be the least disruptive.  (Space, sawdust and power)

I like using the miter saw and the table saw out back.  (Although I haven't done it in the summer yet).  There seems to be less impact to the shop in back by keeping the sawdust outside. There is more room to work and we can keep them under the bench when not in use. 

I would like to make the impact of the new tools along the same lines.

I would like to hear suggestions during the next week.  Then I take everyone's feedback and write a proposal to see if the community is willing to accept the proposed upgrade.

Off the top of my head, some things I would like to see:

* a decent air compressor in the space along with a nailer and perhaps one or two other tools to go with it. 
* a nice scroll saw
* maybe a sander of some sort
* perhaps upgrade a couple of our hand tools. (Basic tools that we use a lot should be durable and high quality)
* a jointer would be nice but I am concerned about space and portability (would also eat up a big part of the budget)

[Chad Stearns]

Bump,

Any update on the woodshop proposal? I have been excited about the idea of an air compressor from this thread.

-ChadCS

[Chad Stearns]

I think the lab could use some more clamps, so I am interested in making a proposal to buy some clamps, but I dont want to interfere with this proposal. Is there any word on this? If I make a proposal for say ~$200 worth of clamps, is that fine?

Separately, Nate and I were talking about how the lab could use some decent wood chisels. That might be a good small item to include in a big woodshop proposal.

[Chad Stearns]

So, speaking of this. I had to glue four corners onto a box. I found a way to turn two smaller clamps into a bigger clamp.

http://i.imgur.com/KabqNZF.jpg

-ChadCS

[Eric Ose]

Wow Chad. Glad you could improvise. I like the outcome of the box. When do we get to here you play it?

[Chad Stearns]

So I havent heard back about this. I can only guess its alright if I write the proposal...? Unless otherwise, I'll make a proposal in the next 24 hours.

-ChadCS

On Monday, July 22, 2013 8:39:50 PM UTC-7, Chad Stearns wrote:

[Chad Stearns]

I dont have a good demo yet, but here is something I made the other day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7TCSNEq1rg

Aside from that I'd be happy to show it off to anyone in the lab. This is just a prototype for a larger version I have begun working on.

-ChadCS