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For what it worth, this little quote blew some minds in my company...
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I think too many things in Haxe (the language itself) are too geeky
and away from the mainstream solutions in other languages.
Getting rid of Flash compatibility does not seem to me a question of 'if' but
only a question of 'when'.
... Haxe is a geeky solution for geeks ..
I can certainly help make it spread, but not at
no cost: I will recommend changes, I will recommend drops, I will
recommend actions. If Haxe is not ready for some important changes and
some major actions, my contributions - and others' contributions -
will be only a waste of time and energy.
...
</Daniel>
cd <a_safe_place>
git clone https://github.com/therealglazou/waxe
cd waxe
git checkout WebView
haxelib dev waxe <a_safe_place>/waxe
cd <a_safe_place>/waxe/samples/04-Simple
haxelib run nme test Simple.nmml windows
Also, can we stop always saying "instead of criticising act"? Cause criticising already is acting, but people in front have to be open to changes and willing to act themselves.
Hi list,
Here are links to the first WWX2015 video, which is Nicolas' talk:http://www.silexlabs.org/10-years-of-haxe-10-things-i-like/
https://twitter.com/silexlabs/status/622440090355281920Other WWX2015 videos should be published every 2 days.
Enjoy :)Clément
On 21/07/2015 00:21, Johann wrote:
> Hi Daniel.
>
> Not long ago you predicted Haxe's eventual death in case it doesn't
> become (more) "ES compatible", and you did so without even trying to
> define your concept of "ES compatibility", except that you'd like to be
> able to copy/paste JS code, which, thankfully, and for obvious reasons
> to anyone familiar with both Haxe's and ES' semantics, is and will only
> ever be possible to a certain extent.
Hello Johann,
I still think Haxe will have a difficult future if it continues to
diverge too much from Web Standards. Can I have such an opinion and
express it without being called names?
> You also present wild speculations about the reasons for the currently
> relatively low adoption of the language, as well as conditions for
> future adoption of Haxe by JS developers, as facts.
> You further proclaim that Haxe had 'been "trying", since inception, to
> be "better" than JS' which is about as accurate as saying that Haskell
> is "trying" to be "better" than PHP;
> You follow up with baseless assumptions about how "Flash compatibilty"
> would be harming Haxe and "maintaining it in a state where it cannot
> reach its full potential".
> Finally, and perhaps most telling, you "100% agreed" to removing
> abstracts from the language.
> And all that without mentioning the terms "types", "type-system", or
> "type-safety" even once.
Yes, I do have an opinion, based on years of market observation and
daily work with all the major players of our software world. So you
call that "wild speculations" and "baseless assumptions", some others
could call it "experience". In all cases, predicting the future IS a
speculation. You think Haxe will spread? I call it a wild speculation
as well. Deuce.
> You're not the first and you certainly won't be the last random person
> stepping into Haxe, who, based on some limited background, is
> - misidentifying the nature of Haxe,
> - missing sufficient exposure to substantial parts of the influences
> that shape[d] its design to even recognize them, let alone to appreciate
> their impact and usefulness,
> - getting fundamental features, properties and policies of the language
> wrong.
Here, you're rather severely underestimating my ability to grasp what's
a new technology and what's it best for.
> Which by itself would be completely fine, since for every newcomer, Haxe
> is unlike anything they've ever seen before. But you're then, based on
> these misconceptions and premature assumptions, demanding that Haxe
> should be limited to the subset of its features, paradigms and
> application domains that your limited imagination suggests, while, of
> course, predicting a bright future if only and only if Haxe followed
> your proposals.
For every newcomer to Haxe, he/she reached it often by pure chance or
interpersonal communication only. Finding Haxe out of the blue is
extremely complicated because Haxe has almost zero visibility.
> Before dumping even more of your "expertise", let alone taking the lead
> in a strategy meeting, it would certainly be wise to acquire a basic
> understanding of the language you're dealing with. The aspects of Haxe
Here, you're insulting me. I never said I want to take a lead and I only
said I want to contribute. I never intended to lead anything. I was
asked to contribute, which I did. My way, certainly. That's why I am
_proposing_ a meeting where I will make _proposals_. Lead? No.
> that you call "too geeky" set Haxe apart, and provide learning
> opportunities for programmers from almost every background. Put to good
> use, they will help create an ecosystem of quality software that the
> ECMAScript world can only dream of. Haxe's competitors are not
> ECMAScript and friends, you rather find them among the likes of Ocaml,
> Haskell, Rust and Scala.
Ocaml, Haskell and Scala will remain perfectly viable programming
environments but under the radars and limited to a minority of projects.
Rust is getting a LOT of traction, because it has a major, hyper visible
project helping it: Servo. But Rust goes far deeper than Haxe, aiming at
providing a replacement for C++ level languages. Haxe cannot offer that.
Hi list,Here are links to the first WWX2015 video, which is Nicolas' talk:http://www.silexlabs.org/10-years-of-haxe-10-things-i-like/
https://twitter.com/silexlabs/status/622440090355281920Other WWX2015 videos should be published every 2 days.Enjoy :)Clément
--
...
</Daniel>
1- Beyond hf itself, Nicolas and Simon have expressed a lot of contrition here and are expressing both will to cooperate. I know well enough Nicolas to say that if he wanted to kill the discussion, he would have done it.
2- Haxe is already used in many major companies like Disney, Tivo, nickelodeon, tf1, silex, motion twin, royal cactus ( which are among the top 20 Web tech in France ), prezi, our pals at Massive, gameduell and gamesys, proletariat, Terry Cavanagh etc...and the list goes long...this aggregated added value probably goes way near half a billion dollar. So haxe will not vanish, thank you.
3- press release subjects are under advance in the open as stated by the github issue on the Hf/project management Open Git issues (referenced multiple times by the haxe roundup) .
4- Brendon said he did not want integration(last time hf checked), so hf will make a blog and a community highlight As Stated By The Git Issue on the Hf git issue. If skial want to revise his position, he will be welcome.
So I hereby affirm that this thread is full of non truths that could be addressed better using the dedicated tools ( namely the Hf project management public issues)
_So can we please slow down the passion ?_
Otherwise I ll start to hijack this thread with stupid jokes about non euclidian entities patterning dark schemes too and will totally start spinning off about how to best cook popcorn with Jason and Hugh using unicorns.
Thanks :D
Wait! I'm discovering there's at least ONE thing public about the HF!
--
You mean the foundation popcorn recipe ?
Simple, you take some bordeaux wine and roast it with oyster sauce !
Ah. I hoped it was something more interesting in terms of the foundation. :-/
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Thanks, guys!
Alright so we again beat the heroes to death again: Haxe needs visibility, and the action to take is to contribute and nudge the Foundation to work in this direction. I think the good will is here: we wanted better docs, a nice haxelib website, and we have it now. Next focus should be to make Haxe more visible, and hopefully we'll all have lots of great ideas for that.
Aside from that, honestly I think that's fair enough if the Foundation focuses on driving the language. What we need to see (and what the Foundation should facilitate) are businesses leveraging Haxe, the same way Ruby On Rails is leveraging Ruby. Quaxe or OpenFL could be such business: offering a solution, anecdotally based on Haxe, to one very concrete need.
In terms of business, as far as Massive Interactive is concerned, Haxe is far from being the biggest problem to sell our services: it's somehow an implementation detail, with the promise (actually rarely needed because we essentially target JS) of being capable of targeting any platform. Our value is out expertise in targeting the myriad of different TVs, and Haxe enables use to do it professionally and efficiently.
Cheers.
regarding documentation, it is a freaking joke! I still can't find on the Haxe website a list of the environment variable used by Haxe, let alone a list of these for Haxe 2.
I'm going to reply inline;
>We have HF meetings at every WWX. We can't have everybody there because if we get the whole conference there >it can no longer be a discussion but it will be more like a Q&A, which I'm fine doing too (there was no such thing at >WWX this year), but it will be a different thing.
How many times has it been announced? How many times did we have some feedback? None. I believe you are wrong on the fact that you can't have a discussion with a lot ; it sure does require more planning, setting topics and goals and may require several subsequent meetings. But I can understand if you find that too cumbersome but at least be clear on when the meeting is happening, who is in, what the goals are and be prepared to give the outcome and then present this outcome and have a Q&A session with everyone : this way people can give you feedback and you may want to reconsider some things. At the moment decisions taken are opaque because they are not announced.
>- you came up with a concern regarding yourself about the "investment" you're doing by learning Haxe, and how it >can play against you when some companies want to recruit you. If I remember correctly, I replied that in general it's a >better thing to learn a niche tech than to be a generalist, and that if you still felt this way you should maybe do >something else, that it's normal to have people leaving the community and it's fine as long as more are joining (which >was half-joke). I don't see how that would be bad manners in some way.
Ok there might be some misunderstanding here ; the issue is not about me, it's about what developers experience on the job market because at the end of the day we all have bills to pay you know. Being an AS/400 litterate is good right now and it's a niche yes, but that's only the case because it wasn't such a niche 25 years ago. If your tech is so niche right now that it's difficult to market, think about what it's going to be in 5 and 10 years!
>- the first thing I said after Daniel's talk was that it was an annoying talk, in particular because he was right about >several things. It doesn't sound like a dismissal. After that I have talk to Daniel and we exchanged a few mails >afterwards. And read my other answers to him : no dismissal again.
Ok you may not realise it but some of your words sound like pure dismissal. It may be a perception thing but I tend to think words have a meaning even when the speaker doesn't realise it. It seems to relate to the previous point and I had actually taken notes during the conference (which I don't have anymore but I'll be happy to have a look again when the video will be available)
>And what would that actually mean in that context ?
That maybe we need to start wondering about points that should have been addressed several years ago given Haxe is 10 years old and stop with the cult of personality that exists (I remember this has been raised about 5 years ago already on this mailing-list!)
>For instance ?
OpenFL, HaxeFlixel, a good library... All these things that, if correctly documented and marketed can finally make Haxe look like a real tool. All these things that should trigger a press release...
> Which environment variables are we talking about ? I think there's a single one in the whole compiler, which is not standard usage. BTW we are no longer providing documentation for Haxe 2, which is already 3 years old...
In fact I believe there are 3 that are used by the "Haxe environment", one is used by Haxe to know where the std lib is, one is used to know where the haxelib libraries are stored and one is used by haxelib to know where haxe is installed.
And oh my god! 3 years old!!! I don't know you but in my (short) life as a developer I have worked on many projects that have been around for more than 3 years. Do you not understand IT projects' life-cycle (and lifespan) that much? I'm sorry but reading such a comment from the "main contributor" of a technology would totally be a big deterrent for people evaluating techs for a project.
>Turning a new programming language, a statically typed one, into a worldwide success, without any backing from >one of the big internet companies, is a hard task. We have things to work on, we need more communication, more >success stories, more of a lot not-technical things. But don't expect miracles. I never promised there will be such a >miracle, because I'm sure of one thing : it's still a long road ahead.
Nobody said it's an easy thing but expecting a few PRs to be sent, one-liners and inviting journalists when you organise your annual conference is not expecting miracles ; it's good project management from a project owner.
Juraj do you realise this kind of answers actually is part of the problem I'm pointing out? Do you think anyone evaluating the technology for usability is going to dive into all your issue trackers? Also this issue has been opened on 15th July 2014 and still isn't fixed! What message does that send?
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As David Elahee mentioned, there’s a lot of passion in this mailing list, and it shows!
I’ve been following Haxe since its inception but I only now started using It. Why? Well, as Benjamin mentioned, the perceivable market value of Haxe as a skill is negligible in the eyes of most startups (it’s starting to change, yes, but proportionally, say, compared to Ruby and or Javascript, you can’t even compare).Haxe (still) is a hard sell..
If you’re building your own products, Haxe starts to make more sense. But only if you actually know what it is and why it would make sense in the first place (in place of more mainstream languages). Why would I use it instead of, say, Ruby on Rails? Ruby has a huge eco-system of libraries for pretty much anything, and most of them are very well maintained. That were all questions that I had in mind.
My geek side wanted to go into Haxe, my common-sense would say, nop, business calls for something that has better support.
A technology can be the coolest thing in the world, but if it doesn’t make my life (x times) easier, why would I use it and go through the trouble of learning it? Of course, it might be fun to tinker with it, but I have a life to live and things in the real world.
So, since I wasn’t into game development at the time and needed to build my portfolio and earn money, it was just natural to go with the mainstream (namely Ruby and javascript). It paid of dividends for me, and I made a good career out of it. It allowed me to reach the level of financial freedom I have today. Level of financial freedom that allowed me to pay for my trip and accommodation for WWX2015 comfortably.
That goes to show that I always thought Haxe had a lot of potential, but I only began using it recently in a personal project of mine (with nodejs — thanks clemos and andreas for haxe-js-kit!). Apart from Nicolas with MotionTwin, OpenFL, and eventually a couple of web projects here and there, there was nothing that would really blow my mind web-wise searching the existing mediums. I took the decision and went to Paris because of that.Did it change my mind? Hell yeah. A lot of brave people (braver than I am) and early adopters are building a lot of amazing stuff with Haxe. I was still a bit disappointed with the web eco-system, but Jason, Juraj and Clement talks were all really inspiring in this regard. It allowed me to see the real value of Haxe as a toolkit and as a language. It allowed me to map that to potential productivity gains down the road.
Unfortunately, a lot of happens under relative obscurity: it’s hard to get news about Haxe! (If it werent’s for Skial…).
Not everyone is willing to do go to that extent (go to the conference) to change their perception about something, though. That’s why I think Daniel’s statements make a lot of sense, even if painful in some ways. And it also goes to show that he actually cares about it.
Now, onto the practical side of things...I saw a talk by André Arko*[0], the current maintainer of Bundler*[1] last month, and I think it sums up one of the most important aspects of this discussion - not only welcoming contributions by anyone, but making it damn easy to do so:
Unfortunately I don’t have the transcripts nor the video recordings. However, check this out:This would be very useful for us. We could maybe adapt it and use it as a starting point. I haven’t found anything about contributing to Haxe, apart from a very small article from the old site. I’m willing to get a template up if you agree this is a good format. It think it is.
Let’s work towards making Haxe an damn easy sell :)
I'd like to second that Haxe is easy to get into: good productivity with the language will come in a matter of weeks. At least when practices and tools are in place.
It's not always easy however to recruit though - we're starting a hiring spree (Prague and possibly London, no remote) to honour the big Haxe projects we sold, and we'll have to train non-Haxe developers. But that's OK for me.
PS: no as a developer you don't just use the language and tools you want; you need to reach a consensus with your managers and colleagues. And for that it would help to have detailed "Haxe case studies" (for the platform you want to target) that can help support your proposition.
Philippe
„Wow“ - took me almost 1,5 hours to read and understand everything - especially the off topic part. :D So first on topic: Thank’s for the videos! Already three public - looking forward to all of them. Especially the one provoking such an passionate discussion!
As a matter of fact Daniels talk, the discussion that came up during WWX and this thread here reassured that we as a company invest and settle on the right platform. The responsibility towards our families and employees made it necessary to consider more than just an technology but an ecosystem. And if topics like Haxe popularity and therefore improving on documentation, communication and usability can be discussed - it is a good thing!
To us it’s very important that everybody who’s working hard getting started with Haxe, will benefit from it in the future. Despite all the terrific cross platform possibilities - the main fact for betting on Haxe was seeing companies like Tivo and Prezi (and maybe even bigger ones) are actually using this platform as well. And therefore enthusiasts here at our company might be interested in diving into it, and later still be able get a job somewhere else too.
My point of view on the current topic: Nicolas did and does a great job in making design decisions and I love the fact that Haxe itself is not that huge (good point back2dos), which seems to be necessary to add new targets in the future. And the open source community and all the different people and projects are just amazing! But i’m also happy that someone with more of an business focus tried to use his experience to monetize the technology itself and made his point of view quite clear.
So what makes me confident in Haxes future is, that open source enthusiasts and business will discuss this and then agree on something that’s will contain the necessities of both worlds.
Everybody in this group loves Haxe - although not everybody has the same reasons. That’s ok - isn’t it?
Hi list,Here are links to the first WWX2015 video, which is Nicolas' talk:http://www.silexlabs.org/10-years-of-haxe-10-things-i-like/
https://twitter.com/silexlabs/status/622440090355281920Other WWX2015 videos should be published every 2 days.Enjoy :)Clément
Hi again,Here are the links to Philippe's talk at WWX2015, which was published yesterday :Please consider sharing the article itself rather than the YT video alone,or at least mentionning @silexlabs when tweeting about it ;)Best,Clément
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Jean-Baptiste