s

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Oct 10, 2022, 1:02:37 PM10/10/22

to Jim Doran, hau...@accoladegroup.com, hau...@googlegroups.com, Haustus2

Jim –

Regarding your statement: “Russia acted in response to actions and statements made by the U. S” [emphasis added].

I am really tired of the misrepresentation in this statement by you.

Precisely WHAT actions or statements by the United States?

--- Has the U. S. let Ukraine into NATO???

--- Has the U. S. ‘sponsored’ Ukraine’s entry into NATO???

--- Has the U. S. ‘sought’ or even ‘approved’ Ukraine’s entry into NATO???

--- Has the U. S. said that the United States or any of its allies, in NATO or otherwise would retaliate against Russia if Russia made war on Ukraine????

The answer to all of these questions was a resounding NO!

SO EXACTLY WHAT ACTIONS OR STATEMENTS BY THE uNITED STATES BEFORE FEBRUARY L24, 2022, ARE YOU REFERRING TO??

You said this, so state exactly what you are referring to.

Indeed, immediately prior to Putin making war on Ukraine, Biden publicly stated that an attack on Ukraine by Russia would NOT lead to any retaliatory attack on Russia by the United States or any of its allies. Biden actually said this, in public, to the world and most significantly to Putin – an open invitation to Putin to go to war against Ukraine.

So state exactly what action or statement that actually and factually occurred to which you are referring.

Please. We all want to know just what the hell you are talking about.

Steve

Sent from Mail for Windows

From: Jim Doran
Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2022 3:11 AM
To: haustusst...@cox.net; hau...@accoladegroup.com
Subject: Re: [Haustus:77165] Francis: “And those who profit from war and the arms trade are criminals who kill humanity...

Steve,

" an unspoken or at least unaddressed part of your position is that , , , and that the Soviets and then the Russians have never violated any of this history".

Are you accusing me of inconsistency and stupidity?

I have said from the beginning that it takes two to tango. That Russia acted in response to actions and statements made by the U. S.

The question is who initiated the tango and what were the dance steps. The way that the various sources tell it, Baker and NATO chiefs repeatedly gave the assurance that NATO would not be expanded to Russia's borders.

Did Russia consent to the reunification of Germany on the condition that NATO not be moved East of its Eastern border?

Best,

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: haustusstevemcclure <haustusst...@cox.net>
To: hau...@accoladegroup.com
Sent: Wed, Sep 7, 2022 11:47 pm
Subject: Re: [Haustus:77165] Francis: “And those who profit from war and the arms trade are criminals who kill humanity...

I basically agree with the history.

I find reason to disagree with what you make significant in that history.

By the way, an unspoken or at least unaddressed part of your position is that the United States was the first to go beyond the non-treatied part of that history and that the Soviets and then the Russians have never violated any of this history.

I am willing to work on such a premise if at least addressed and backed up with some history one way or the other.

But I just note that I don't think you have ever addressed the issue of whether, and why, the other side was not also proportionately in violation of those alleged undertakings evidently based on the Cuban Crisi undertakings.

Steve

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device

-------- Original message --------

From: 'Jim Doran' via Haustus <hau...@accoladegroup.com>

Date: 9/7/22 5:27 PM (GMT-07:00)

To: haustusst...@cox.net, hau...@accoladegroup.com

Subject: Re: [Haustus:77161] Francis: “And those who profit from war and the arms trade are criminals who kill humanity...

Have you read . .. ?

It's a long piece but you read books.

Read the article and address the 'Western' perfidy. Our perfidy.

"The first concrete assurances by Western leaders on NATO began on January 31, 1990, when West German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher opened the bidding with a major public speech at Tutzing, in Bavaria, on German unification. The U.S. Embassy in Bonn (see Document 1) informed Washington that Genscher made clear “that the changes in Eastern Europe and the German unification process must not lead to an ‘impairment of Soviet security interests.’ Therefore, NATO should rule out an ‘expansion of its territory towards the east, i.e. moving it closer to the Soviet borders.’” The Bonn cable also noted Genscher’s proposal to leave the East German territory out of NATO military structures even in a unified Germany in NATO.[3] "

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

Best,

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: haustusstevemcclure <haustusst...@cox.net>
To: hau...@accoladegroup.com
Sent: Wed, Sep 7, 2022 6:59 pm
Subject: Re: [Haustus:77159] Francis: “And those who profit from war and the arms trade are criminals who kill humanity...

Re: What would we have to lose by by withdrawing our missiles missiles from nato?

To me, everything I have absorbed from history says this would be the end of NATO as a viable treaty structure.

So Jim is really saying that, in the face of Russian war on Ukraine and possibly elsewhere, our response is not simply to cancel the expansions of NATO in the past quarter of a century.....

.....But Jim's ideas imply that all NATO members should destroy that Treaty structure.

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device

-------- Original message --------

From: 'George Brockway' via Haustus <hau...@accoladegroup.com>

Date: 9/7/22 1:55 PM (GMT-07:00)

To: hau...@accoladegroup.com

Subject: Re: [Haustus:77153] Francis: “And those who profit from war and the arms trade are criminals who kill humanity...

in red, below

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Jim Doran' via Haustus <hau...@accoladegroup.com>
To: hau...@accoladegroup.com
Sent: Wed, Sep 7, 2022 4:41 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Haustus:77151] Francis: “And those who profit from war and the arms trade are criminals who kill humanity...

A Homeric simile has one point of comparison.

Russia has indicated for over 30 years that it is defending itself from nato expansion.

I believe that that's correct. That there probably were other ways to do it.

There are unknowns in this situation.

What would we have to lose by by withdrawing our missiles missiles from nato? Presumably you mean from those NATO countries east of what used to be East Germany. What do we have to lose? Possibly, their confidence that they really would be defended by NATO from any Russian incursion. Puzzlement at being treated differently (as 2nd. class citizens?) from the other NATO nations. Possibly it would be seen, by Russia, as an invitation to do in those countries what they have already done in Georgia, Crimea and Chechnya? And, of course, it does nothing to really enhance Russia's security. But sure, go ahead and try it. With consultation and agreement from all NATO members. (Or are you excluding their right to a say?)

Jim

On Wed, Sep 7, 2022 at 4:35 PM, 'George Brockway' via Haustus
<hau...@accoladegroup.com> wrote:
This response apparently got lost somewhere. Here's a second try.

-----Original Message-----
From: George Brockway <gbro...@verizon.net>
To: hau...@accoladegroup.com <hau...@accoladegroup.com>
Sent: Wed, Sep 7, 2022 10:42 am
Subject: Re: [Haustus:77132] Francis: “And those who profit from war and the arms trade are criminals who kill humanity...
One last time.

The U.S. and NATO went back on their word and expanded east of East Germany's borders.

        Road rage incident: you pulled back in front of me too quickly after passing me.

This provocation may be a partial explanation for the actions of Putin's Russia in Ukraine. (As JD so often says: we cannot really know the motivations / what's in the heart of another person.)

        Because you pulled back in front of me too quickly, I'm very upset and angry with you.

And as a result of your thus provoking me (us, Russia), I (we) are going to invade, kill and destroy Ukraine.

        And because you pulled back in front of me too quickly, I'm going to bump your car from behind and force it
        into that ditch. F U !!

Conclusion: Even if the facts as presented are accurate, the response of the provoked is so out of proportion as                           to be wholly inexcusable and ought to be condemned in the strongest possible terms and remedied                           as quickly as possible.

Puzzlement: Jim seems more concerned with the provocation than with the over-reaction.

George



-----Original Message-----
From: 'Jim Doran' via Haustus <hau...@accoladegroup.com>
To: haustusst...@cox.net <haustusst...@cox.net>; hau...@accoladegroup.com <hau...@accoladegroup.com>
Sent: Wed, Sep 7, 2022 10:17 am
Subject: Re: [Haustus:77132] Francis: “And those who profit from war and the arms trade are criminals who kill humanity...

Clearly Ukraine is not the aggressor.

But you and I differ on who has actually provoked this special operation.

Compare it to road rage. Someone may be provoked to road rage but that person is still expected to control it.

But, as in road rage, our attention should be on both the unacceptable action and the provocation.

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

I ask you and George. Have you read this?

Best,

Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: haustusstevemcclure <haustusst...@cox.net>
To: hau...@accoladegroup.com
Sent: Wed, Sep 7, 2022 9:52 am
Subject: Re: [Haustus:77130] Francis: “And those who profit from war and the arms trade are criminals who kill humanity...
Further....

[Have you ever known me to be able just to stop and be quiet?]

One cannot do "both at the same time" by ignoring or downplaying the vast difference between the victims and the aggressors.

If any call to also see our common humanity means we are somehow to deny the difference between victims and aggressors, then our empathy and our compassion are really a lie.

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device

-------- Original message --------
From: haustusstevemcclure <haustusst...@cox.net>
Date: 9/7/22 6:38 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: hau...@accoladegroup.com
Subject: Re: [Haustus:77125] Francis: “And those who profit from war and the arms trade are criminals who kill humanity...

Ok, George, I do agree with you. I really do.

But it is kind of the job of the pope to do that.

If we cannot or at least don't see the humanity of our adversaries.....we become blind to the realities of what we confront.

I even at times have found myself sadly contemplating the weak narcissism of Trp's struggles to endlessly push himself out there as the greatest.

I often think about the upbringing and follow on experiences that took the youthful potentialities of a Hitler or a Himmel and mourn what they eventually became.

When I look at them, and Putin, and so many others, and mourn my felliw human beings, am I speaking of the victim and the aggressor in the same categories?

Caught up as they are in the struggle of their lives, I don't condemn the obsessive definitional focus I see with Ukraine’s Myrotvorets Hit Squad.

We must always remember the vast moral gap between the victims and the aggressors.

But should we not, at the very same moment we Remer this vast difference, also remember our common humanity?

Hard to do -- but I kinda think it is the pope's job to call us to do that.

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device

-------- Original message --------
From: 'George Brockway' via Haustus <hau...@accoladegroup.com>
Date: 9/7/22 5:28 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: hau...@accoladegroup.com
Subject: Re: [Haustus:77125] Francis: “And those who profit from war and the arms trade are criminals who kill humanity...

Whereas I am inclined to think that this, with proper qualification, is absolutely right.

"it is a mistake to speak about the “aggressor” and the “victim” in “the same categories.”

George

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Jim Doran' via Haustus <hau...@accoladegroup.com>
To: hau...@accoladegroup.com <hau...@accoladegroup.com>; hau...@googlegroups.com <hau...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Sep 7, 2022 7:32 am
Subject: [Haustus:77124] Francis: “And those who profit from war and the arms trade are criminals who kill humanity...
GOH,

Pope Francis is from the global South.

He looks at the world from a different angle, than, say, Joe Biden.

Best,

Jim

WIIL THE POPE BE NEXT? Pope Francis Is the Latest Target of Ukraine’s Myrotvorets Hit Squad
Aug. 31 (EIRNS)—On Aug. 28, the website of the fascist Myrotvorets (“Peacemaker”) hit squad in Ukraine attacked Pope Francis for his comments in a general audience about the assassinated Russian journalist Darya Dugina. Although they did not place His Holiness on their official hit list (at least not yet), the Myrotvorets site warned: “The Myrotvorets Center is closely following statements by the Pope. We note with astonishment that Francis of Rome is voicing Kremlin talking points and belittling the blood-letting of the fascist Russian invaders of Ukraine.”
The remarks by Pope Francis that were considered offensive were made while addressing his Wednesday general audience at the Vatican on Aug. 24: “I think of so much cruelty, so many innocents who are paying for madness, the madness of all sides, because war is madness and no one in war can say: ‘No, I am not mad.’ The madness of war.
“I think of that poor girl blown up by a bomb under her car seat in Moscow [Darya Dugina].
“The innocent pay for war, the innocent! Let us think about this reality and say to each other: war is madness.
“And those who profit from war and the arms trade are criminals who kill humanity....
“But today in a special way, six months after the beginning of the war, we think of Ukraine and Russia, I consecrated both countries to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. May she, as Mother, turn her gaze on these two beloved countries: may she look upon Ukraine, look upon Russia, and bring us peace! We need peace!”
His prayer quickly led to a protest by Ukraine’s envoy to the Vatican Andrii Yurash, who called the remarks “disappointing,” because it is a mistake to speak about the “aggressor” and the “victim” in “the same categories.” Then Kiev summoned the Vatican envoy, Archbishop Visvaldas Kulbokas, to lodge a formal complaint, which Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba revealed to the media on Aug. 25. Kuleba also said “Ukraine’s heart was torn by the Pope’s words,” calling them “unjust.”
The Pope has been considering a trip to Ukraine, but has made it clear that he will only go, if he can also travel to Russia. This is a standard Vatican diplomatic effort to maintain neutrality in such conflicts. The Zelenskyy government in Kiev has made it clear they are totally opposed to such a Russia trip by the Pope.

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Jim Doran

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Oct 10, 2022, 2:20:32 PM10/10/22

to haustusst...@cox.net, hau...@accoladegroup.com, hau...@googlegroups.com, mem...@haustus2.com

Steve,

NATO history: U.S. foreign policy decisions that led to war in Ukraine.

I Matlock was there: NATO Ukraine crisis

Newly Declassified Documents: Gorbachev Told NATO Wouldn't Move Past East German Border | The National Interest

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

Address what is said.

Jim

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Jim Doran

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Oct 10, 2022, 4:10:59 PM10/10/22

to hau...@accoladegroup.com, haustusst...@cox.net, hau...@googlegroups.com

Steve,

Did you read?

What do you have to say to Matlock and others? Not as 'experts' but for the facts that they call attention to. And are you considering the documentation that has recently become available?

haustusstevemcclure

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Oct 10, 2022, 8:20:48 PM10/10/22

to Jim Doran, hau...@accoladegroup.com, hau...@googlegroups.com, mem...@haustus2.com

So, it had nothing to do with Ukraine entering NSTO.

It is all about East Germany, Hungary and Poland.

This is like you saying you can beat up your next door neighbor's wife because I had an affair with your friend's wife six blocks away.

Russia does have a complaint about expanding NATO.

But tgst complaint has nothing to do with NATO.

So that complaint does NOT JUSTIFY A WAR ON UKRAINE in "response."

So just stop your nonsense about the West provoking or causing Putin’s war on Ukraine. This nonsense demeans your intelligence and makes you look like you are just trying to excuse Putin’s war on Ukraine in any stupid, nonsensical and irrational way you can.

Or explain just how you are entitled to beat up your next door neighbor's wife because I have an affair with your friend's wife who lives six blocks away. Beating up your next door neighbor's wife is NOT A "RESPONSE" to my having an affair six blocks away with someone else.

haustusstevemcclure

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Oct 10, 2022, 8:54:08 PM10/10/22

to hau...@accoladegroup.com, hau...@googlegroups.com

Yes, I read them. And these articles do not, not, not in any way answer the question I will restate in the final paragraph of this instant post of mine..

Using NATO as an excuse to make war on a non-NATO- member is nonsense, unless Putin is, in response to losing his any ability at all to threaten Poland, Hungary et al militarily into kowtowing to Russia [for that is all Putin lost vis-a-vis Poland, Hungary by their entry into NATO], Putin wants at least to recreate the Soviet Union status for Ukraine as a Soviet-style satellite state.

And that war aim of Putin's war on Ukraine -- if that indeed is his war aim for Ukraine -- would indeed be an obscene and unjustified evil.

I am actually trying to deal with the actual realities here. The very limited scope, and in reality the non-threatening scope of the NATO Article V retaliation provision, and the reality that Ukraine does not have that protection, and how these realities excuse, justify the crazy response, or cause or are caused by each other.

It is clear that the admission of Hungary. Poland et al. gave Putin a justifiable complaint against a broken U.S. promise [a promise, by the way, that in international law and affairs, was non-binding because neither a treaty obligation or otherwise 'earned' -- what did Gorbachev give up to get tjis statement of policy? -- it had the status of a mere statement of policy at the time.

Which policy changes when situations and facts on the ground change -- and the big chsnge in the situstion was the accesdion to power of the known threat of the narcissist named Putin -- which certainly justified our extending Article V's NATO 'obligation to retaliate' to these members of the prior Soviet Union -- whoch Putin was known to desire to re-establish in some limited way.

Such a grievance about "expanding" those who benefit from Article V guarantee may lead to a valid complaint ftom Putin, and thus to renegotiation. -- but not to a war on another country not involved in the grounds for that complaint.

[By the way, I have forgotten who the 'et al' was -- Lithuania? Latvia? Estonia?]

So I repeat; I cannot for the life of me figure out why letting Poland, Hungary et al. into NATO justifies Putin’s war on Ukraine as a "response" to Hungary, Poland et al. becoming members of NATO.

Jim Doran

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Oct 11, 2022, 8:42:57 AM10/11/22

to haustusst...@cox.net, hau...@accoladegroup.com, hau...@googlegroups.com

Steve,

You write:

"Such a grievance about "expanding" those who benefit from Article V guarantee may lead to a valid complaint ftom Putin, and thus to renegotiation. -- but not to a war on another country not involved in the grounds for that complaint.

[By the way, I have forgotten who the 'et al' was -- Lithuania? Latvia? Estonia?]

So I repeat; I cannot for the life of me figure out why letting Poland, Hungary et al. into NATO justifies Putin’s war on Ukraine as a "response" to Hungary, Poland et al. becoming members of NATO".

" . . . . renegotiation . . . " With who? Sullivan, Austin and Blinken? He'd have a better chance of negotiating with Wynken, Blynken, and Nod! That's been the problem since Slick Willie reneged on our agreements and those of other NATO members. America is unwilling to negotiate about its prevarications. Has been for over three decades.

Who was there to negotiate with when Victoria Nuland Kagan orchestrated the Maidan coup and got a government hostile to Russia in Kyiv?

Who was there to negotiate when the hero of Baghdad was proposing NATO in Ukraine and Georgia? You may not have taken that proposal seriously but Putin did, given America's relentless aggression that could in no way be construed as self-defense.

Now, according to Chomsky, nothing justifies this invasion. But we will never get situation resolved short of nuclear annihilation unless we understand the context and what we and some bellicose European leaders have contributed to it.

Best,

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: haustusstevemcclure <haustusst...@cox.net>

To: hau...@accoladegroup.com; hau...@googlegroups.com <hau...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Oct 10, 2022 8:54 pm
Subject: Re: [Haustus:77497] Francis: “And those who profit from war and the arms trade are criminals who kill humanity...