Ideas I have been struggling with for years.

[haustusstevemcclure]

Below, corrected and somewhat expanded, is a long essay I wrote a little over two months ago, on thoughts I had been working on for years.

[My ex-wife sent it back to me today for me to think more about its implications, which has provoked me to send it to you agsin.]

Jim, George, Bob --

None of you has really reacted.

Madeline -- I would be fascinated by your reactions.

I begin with two basic and, to me, very compelling factual conclusions/predictions.

I go from there to 'operational' conclusions.

Where do any of you find me straying from a pragmatic but very difficult 'path forward?

*******

From: haustusstevemcclure <haustusst...@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 1:14:34 AM
To: Mary Ann Carroll <mary...@msn.com>; McC-Mary <maryshar...@gmail.com>; Daniel Colin McClure <dmcclu...@gmail.com>; Madeline McClure <olds...@gmail.com>
Subject: FW: WE ARE ALL PALESTINIANS

 

Some ideas that have been getting to me today.

*******

-------- Original message --------

From: haustusstevemcclure <haustusst...@cox.net>

Date: 7/19/22 8:32 PM (GMT-07:00)

To: Haustus2 <mem...@haustus2.com>, Haustus - Google <hau...@googlegroups.com>, Haustus - Accolade <hau...@accoladegroup.com>

Subject: WE ARE ALL PALESTINIANS

***********

Jim --

All right, I will take the time, once again, to state what I believe is both the necessary and the only possible route to resolving the "Tragedy of Palestine."

I start off with two factual premises that control everything from there forward.

First premise:

Israel now has complete police, military and political control of all of the land from Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea and it is an absolute pipedream to think that, once having this jurisdiction and REAL POWER now, Israel will ever give it up.  AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.  Israel knows what being powerless means.

Any attempt to ignore, or significantly reduce, this overwhelming power is a fool's game no one should ask any of us to play.

Note:  The absolute refusal by Israel to surrender significant ultimate power and control is seen in Israel's non-negotiable, and presumptive, and presumptuous, stated demand that of course in any so-called Two-State Solution Israel with have "some" sort of ultimate control and oversight of the security powers of whatever rump partial government is allowed to exist on the West Bank.  

This proviso is often included in actual public descriptions of how any Two State Solution would actually work -- and, even when unstated, this demand is always implicitly there in what is to be 'negotiated' -- and this demand makes this Two State Solution a cruel LIE and the Palestinians know it is a lie -- they ain't stupid. This is not a Two State Solution.  It is one domineering state controlling another rump state.  A One and a Quarter State Solution at best.

[By the way, when George some months ago described the Two State Solution here on haustus, he specifically included the foregoing proviso as an obviously appropriate control by Israel over the Arab state.  Just think about that proviso and the insult it implies..]

And U.S. support of this lie is a disgrace -- arising out of our lack of willingness to think beyond political slogans whose only realistic purpose is to articulate and assuage our own real but unacknowleged desire that this whole 'Tragedy of Palestine' just go away, dammit, just go away.

Further note:  This chimera independent Palestinian nation state on the West Bank would never be allowed to join itself to Jordan -- for that would thereby both make Jordan more powerful and also give the West Bank access to and participation in all the soverign powers of a separate soverign independent nation state.

Second premise;

The Palestinians are never going to be satisfied -- and indeed they never should be satisfied -- with any rump fake country called for in the Two State Solution.  

The Palestinians have lived in at least the whole area from the Jordan to the Sea for over 1,350 years -- or longer if one doesn't start counting only from the rise of Islam.

Although Palestine was never really in modern history [nor in its previous governance by the Ottoman Empire] a completely autonomous and separately soverign nation state in the Western sense, with definite borders, etc., their lands were in 1948 forcefully and intentionally taken from them by the very witting Israelis [by the way. --  an expulsion and expropriation the Palestinians in 1948 all but cooperated in by running away while assuming the whole Arab world would push the Jews into the sea or something like that, so they coukd return]....

....Nonetheless or maybe because of this history, the Palestinians look on themselves as in some way the 'rightful' occupants of that whole land from the Jordan to the Sea. That is their self identity and they have a right to that self identity, dammit, they really do.  ---   I.e., ultimately I believe in some sort of cooperative right of return or at least compensated non-return.  Now THAT is a proper issue for negotiations.  I am reminded of the South Africa talks.

But trying to give the Palestinians this rump, i.e., fake state that is what this mythic Two State Solution actually looks like when drawn on actual paper maps -- this attempt to push this cruel lie is enough to make the Palestinians want to 'fight for the rest of their country'  and to fight to the death if need be.  

And worse. taking away the normal autonomy of separate sovereignty over police power, international relations and interactions, etc -- see the comments above -- guarantees that any actual Two State Solution will not solve anything.

[A personal aside to you, Jim:  Although I have usually thought that you too uncritically buy into some proposed solutions of this second factual premise with which solutions I disagree, I think you can see that I have a basic empathy for, and acceptance of the legitimacy of, the desires of the Palestinians regarding their lands.]

First Operative Conclusion:

Whatever resolves the so-called Palestinian problem/crisis, the single government in Israel is going to maintain the fundamentals of government's power and control of the whole area from the Jordan to the Sea and the Palestinians are going to demand that at least that same whole area become as a whole whatever the single soverign nation state of Israel/Palestine turns out to be. [For this, see below.]

Acting or pretending otherwise is an irrelevant fairytale to distract and delude inattentive and unthinking outsiders. 

Second Operative Conclusion:

So the only real issue left is just how this one state from the Jordan to the Sea is going to operate.

Since (a) there is going to be one and only one soverign nation state from the Jordan to the Sea....

Since (b) the Jews are not going to wipe out or deport or otherwise 'ethnicly cleanse' the Palestinians from that one country, and....

.

Since (c) the Palestinians are not going to push the Jews 'into the sea ' either really or metaphorically, nor 'send them to Africa' where they should have been sent in 1948 [Hey, I remember what you said, Jim, I really do!],...

Therefore (d) the Jews and the Palestinians have just got to figure out how to live together in peace in that one land which history has given them.

In other words: Ethnic and/or religious identity and roots CANNOT in any way remain the defining and controlling factor in the exercise of first class citizenship in that one land.  

THAT has got to be the key -- that one sentence.

The Jews are never again going to give up their clear 'first class citizenship' in that one country from the Jordan to the Sea, particularly since the Jews are way too powerful to be forced to give up such first class citizenship. The last 1,700 years have taught the Jews what second class status in a polity means -- oppression,oppression, death, hortor.

But the Jews must come to realize that their own first class citizenship simply cannot depend on denying similar first class citizenship to the Palestinians along side them in that one and same land.

And the Palestinians only want first class citizenship in that one land. Including those Palestinians in the so-called West Bank, first class citizenship denied them now in cultural fact even if not, at least in Israel proper, on horror.

 

But the Palestinians must come to realize that their own first class citizenship cannot depend on stripping the equal first class citizenship from the Jews along side them in that one and same land.

Speaking metaphorically, both the Talmud and Sharia Law are to be philosophical sources for thought, not patterns for government.

Everything set forth above comes down to this one sentence, and literally every operative result of the foregoing cannot be resolved unless and until this single sentence becomes the sine qua non of the future peace between these two groupings of human beings in that one land:

Ethnic and/or religious identity and roots CANNOT in any way remain a defining and controlling factor in the exercise of first class citizenship in that one land. 

Jim, you have mocked me in the past as not being real because this single operative fact has, allegedly, no political and/or cultural support in the region, at least not yet.

True enough.....

.....But Jim, I challenge you to show how the Tragedy of Palestine gets actually resolved, given the array of powers actually in place, other than by some version of "equal first class citizenship regardless of ethnicity and religion of all those human beings from Jordan to the Sea.

Some Ruminations:

Some years ago, when I first thought about these issues outloud, I mentioned Ghandi.

Ghandi, a member of the oppressed class in India, defeated the British basically by using, against the British themselves, those very principles of social existence already so dear to the British.  The British gave up power and control of India ultimately because Ghandi's non-violent movement appealed to and was based upon and totally supported by the very 'principles of polity' that the British claimed governed the British body politic at home.

So, I said all those years ago, what was needed here in the 21st century to end the Tragedy of Palestine is 'a Palestinian Ghandi' -- to lead a non-violent movement of Palestinian Arabs, probably centered or at least sourced in the West Bank, to hold up to the dominant and domineering Jews the basic principles of the 'theory of polity' already accepted by the Jews, all to demand equal political rights regardless of race, creed or color.

I do not know that this momentary wish of mine for a "Palestinian Ghsndi" is realistic, but the ideas behind such a symbol are crucially unavoidable.

For almost two millenia, since the destruction of Jerusalem, Jews throughout the Diaspora have in one way or another relied on, and been saved by, separation of basic political protection from ethnic and religious identity.  The Jews were and are not stupid.  They know what alone has saved and can still save them, a polity that will never again become the tool of, or even just hide in fear of, the religious majority who hate the Jews.  All the pogroms in those centuries were a fundamental breakdown of the core obligation of society to guarantee to Jews the same social safety that everyone else had.  The pogroms were social and government failures and dereliction of duty.

So deep in the very core of the Jews' traditions about the relationship between citizenship and ethnic/religious identity is this basic affirmation that social safety, and therefore ultimately first class citizenship, must not be dependent on ethnic or religious identity of the majority versus the minority.

So, all those years ago, I said that this

hypothetical 'Palestinian Ghandi' was needed and should hold those very [Jewish] principles up before the authorities in Israel and call those authorities to what they so basically have always believed since the destruction of Jerusalem -- demanding that those same principles apply to all, Jew and Arab alike, whether in Tel Aviv or in the West Bank towns and cities [including the Jewish West settlements].

Well, over time, I have come to think I had not gone far enough and had not seen what is really needed: Only a JOINT Arab/Jewish COALITION can actually do the job and prevail to solve the Tragedy of Palestine.

Jews and Arabs both together, in one vast movement, chanting together "We are ALL Palestinians."  Jewish Palestinians and Arab Palestinians, all chanting together:  "We are all Palestinians."  In some form or other, THAT must be the chant that rings in the ears of history.

[By the way and as a passing thought, in this political.movement, I think the Jews, as the currently dominant group, should agree to rename the one land 'Palestine' as a gesture of fellowship -- with 'Israeli' and 'Israel' being only the social name, not linked to geography, of a large and even dominant group within Palestine.  Theater? Yes, but healthy nonetheless -- kindbof like the official name "United States" versus populsr nzne "America."]

Absent this, I see no viable resolution or escape from the Tragedy of Palestine.

Now, Jim, go ahead and mock me and my ideas for not 'being real' because no one is pushing them, not now, or at least not yet.

Well I totally agree with you, in a twofold way, where each half is inextricably linked to the other:

       [A]    I agree that no movement of any significance has as of now taken up this banner and no one is chanting "We are all Palestinians!"

                              AND

        [B]     I hope you can see that there is, as of right now, no political, cultural or other viable resolution for the Tragedy of Palestine in anyone's sight.

These two sentences [A] and [B] above, together, merely describe the present stalemate, and unbreakable limits of the present absence of creativity and imagination -- all chaining everyone into inescaple conflict going nowhere soon.

And I repeat because I think a moment's thought shows its truth: The Two State Solution is ultimately nothing but a cruel joke and an insulting lie,  that solves nothing.

[And by the way, my country should have no part in trying to continue this self-deluding and fairytale lie.  We must be more creative, a true midwife of peace.  We must change our policy sand our rhetoric.]

Further, there is, right now, nothing else but "push them back into the sea" [And, hey, we will get the Saudis to pay their way to Africa, right?] or some form of ethnic cleansing [but in an oh so civilized manner, such as paying their way to go to Jordan or to anywhere but here]. These two ends of the spectrum only continue to putrify the region into continuing the Tragedy of Palestine.

So I have been trying to think through a viable resolution of the Tragedy of Palestine that recognizes the controlling truth of the first two factual premises initially set forth above.

*****

Have I been clear enough about where I stand, and how I got there?

I feel I have begun with two factual premises that recognize the controlling realities in this situation, and then proceeded step by step from there forward to where I end up.

So, mock me for "not being real" all you want, Jim, but if you do, you have some obligation to come up with another feasible resolution.  Go ahead and try.  I dare you to try. I tried and this was where I ended up.

Don't just take potshots.  You go ahead and propose something. anything, lay it out in as much detail and connections to the many aspects of this Tragedy as you can think of.

If you won't try, I will take that as a silent admission that, absent some form of my ideas, there is no other way out of the Tragedy of Palestine.

I await your response.

Steve

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device

[George Brockway]

It is very long Steve, and I thought I did respond, in the past.  But I'll keep it and try to respond again sometime relatively soon.

George

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[Jim Doran]

"So, mock me for "not being real" all you want, Jim, but if you do, you have some obligation to come up with another feasible resolution.  Go ahead and try.  I dare you to try. I tried and this was where I ended up". 

How do you play the game, Steve, when the Zionists have kicked the ball over the fence into the septic tank? 

I am not going to try.

Politics is the art of the possible.

The invaders have made it impossible certainly for the next twenty life times. 

Best,

Jim 

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[haustusstevemcclure]

I am refusing [unlike you, I think] to equate Israel with Zionism.

Netanyahuism is Xionissm.  Israel is bigger than that.

I seriously think you equate Zionism and Israel.

I think that is wrong.

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device

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[Jim Doran]

Jewish Israeli Gideon Levy begs to differ with you.

'Israel' in inception and realization has been the Zionist occupation of Palestine since 1882. 

You're not going to blow it away with hot air, Steve.

The world has few people finer that Gideon. But he holds out no hope. Band-aids don't help with cancer.

Best,

Jim 

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[haustusstevemcclure]

Ok, George, to summarize.....

My thinking comes down to explicating and thinking through two factual premises and two operational conclusions:

....The one government in Jerusalem is not going to give up its badic power over the whole land ftom the Jordan to the Sea 

.....Therefore the so-called 'Two State' Solution, besides being only a 'One and a Quarter/Rump' State Solution is a self-deceiving distraction that solves nothing.

....Almost as a restatement of the above, all resolutions of the Tragedy of Palestine must begin with one government in Jerusalem governing tjis whole land.

.....The only issue then us how that single state is to operate for all loving yogether in peace in that one land..

From the above, I have been forced back to accepting that the only workable principle to resolve this tragedy is that religious abd/or ethnic identity cannot be the measure of first class citizenship  -- it must be common humanity with all its fascinating differences.

[haustusstevemcclure]

If you are "not going to try," then your posts bevome just unimportantly and irrelevantly repetitive wails.

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device

-------- Original message --------

From: 'Jim Doran' via haustus <hau...@googlegroups.com>

Date: 9/27/22 1:37 PM (GMT-07:00)

To: hau...@googlegroups.com

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/haustus/298489451.829343.1664311028541%40mail.yahoo.com.

[haustusstevemcclure]

And Gideon is not a Zionist and represents what must be the future of Israel 

[Jim Doran]

But he's not a Methodist.

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[George Brockway]

Thanks for the summary, Steve.  My thoughts:

You omit another and supremely important basic fact, viz. the felt conviction on the part of virtually all Jews everywhere of "Never again!"  (Just watch the new PBS series by Ken Burns to see where this conviction comes from.  And why, if you were a Jew, you'd very probably hold the same conviction.) 

What will never be allowed again?  That the destiny or fate of Jews will be able to be determined by others.

If Israel were to become a democratic state with full citizenship for all inhabitants, including non-Jews, that situation could occur.  So, it will never be allowed to happen.

Conclusion: Israel will never be one, unified and democratic state which includes Palestinians (or any other non-Jews) as full citizens and with no restriction on their numbers.

Those, I think, are the absolute parameters within which any 'solution' to the Israeli - Palestinian problem must be worked out.  To ignore that most basic fact and the operational restrictions it imposes is to engage in purely wishful thinking.

I happen to think a two-state solution is possible, but it would require a serious re-distribution of land and property that now belongs to or is controlled by Israel and that, admittedly, is very, very unlikely to happen.  In addition, it would require support and aid from the neighboring Arab nations to support it and to help the Palestinians weather the initial years of such a state.  And that also is very, very unlikely to happen since those neighboring states want and prefer to have Israel occupied with this problem.  But however unlikely such a solution, it is more likely than the one you envision.

George

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[Jim Doran]

All of us have our destinies controlled by others, George.

Is there a reason that anyone should honor the Zionist special pleading to exempt themselves from the common fate of humanity?

Other than hoping forlornly that somehow justice and decency will come about, I think you are right. The Zionists will never give up what they stole. And hold. By genocide. 

And why isn't that genocide another 'never again'? 

It these vile ideologues want 'never again' why do they do what never again should be done. 

Best,

Jim 

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