[Harp-L] 5th positon
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John F. Potts
Aug 28, 2008, 7:42:57 PM8/28/08
to mfuga...@yahoo.com, har...@harp-l.org
Mike ,
I use 5th position regularly for minor keys. I can perform all
sorts of material in 5th that I could never handle in other
positions. I use it so often that I absolutely must carry my Aflat
diatonic all the time so i have it on hand to use for C minor. Eflat
for G minor. F for A minor, etc.
As you probably know, in order to determine which harp to use in 5th
position, you take the relative major of the minor key you wish to
play and use the harp you would ordinarily use to play 2d position in
that key. For example, if you want to play in C minor, the relative
major is Eflat, so you use an Aflat harp (the one you would use to
play in Eflat major 2d position). Then use 2 blow for root and you
get C minor, without having to bend for the minor 3rd or the minor
6th (which is the minor 3rd on the IV chord).
You can use the whole harp and play the minor blues scale top to
bottom in all 3 registers. Bending the 3 draw is necessary to get the
flat 5th and the 4th. Also, there are a couple of avoid notes in the
upper 2 registers. But otherwise, it's a lot like 2d position in that
it's hard to hit a really bad note. The technique and breath patterns
are also similar to 2d position.
I think 5th position is better for most minor key material than 3d
position, because in 3rd position, you must bend to get the minor 6th
which is the third note of the IV chord... and if the IV chord is
minor (as it is in most, but not all, minor tunes) you don't fool
anyone if you don't flat the 6th. I never understood why most
instructional materials recommend 3d position for minor keys instead
of 5th. There's not much recorded material in 5th position, though.
But playing in 5th allows the player to fit harp parts to all sorts
of tunes that don't have harp on the original and which most harp
players would not be able to handle on a diatonic. Overblows (which I
have not learned to do) are not necessarily required.
Of course, you can play minor in 4th position without having to
bend, but I consider 4th to be a straight harp position because you
are playing the harp in the relative minor of the key of the harp.
For example you use a C harp for A minor. But A minor is the same
key (same notes) as C major. You just start on a different note. So
you are actually playing the instrument in the key it is in. I am
able to play 4th, but never use it unless I want to play "All Along
the Watchtower" which was originally recorded by Dylan using 4th
position and may sound better in 4th instead of 5th. But 4th is like
playing in 1st. And i don't usually enjoy playing in 1st, although
i can do it when i have to. But if you like 4th you should love 5th!
JP
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I use 5th position regularly for minor keys. I can perform all
sorts of material in 5th that I could never handle in other
positions. I use it so often that I absolutely must carry my Aflat
diatonic all the time so i have it on hand to use for C minor. Eflat
for G minor. F for A minor, etc.
As you probably know, in order to determine which harp to use in 5th
position, you take the relative major of the minor key you wish to
play and use the harp you would ordinarily use to play 2d position in
that key. For example, if you want to play in C minor, the relative
major is Eflat, so you use an Aflat harp (the one you would use to
play in Eflat major 2d position). Then use 2 blow for root and you
get C minor, without having to bend for the minor 3rd or the minor
6th (which is the minor 3rd on the IV chord).
You can use the whole harp and play the minor blues scale top to
bottom in all 3 registers. Bending the 3 draw is necessary to get the
flat 5th and the 4th. Also, there are a couple of avoid notes in the
upper 2 registers. But otherwise, it's a lot like 2d position in that
it's hard to hit a really bad note. The technique and breath patterns
are also similar to 2d position.
I think 5th position is better for most minor key material than 3d
position, because in 3rd position, you must bend to get the minor 6th
which is the third note of the IV chord... and if the IV chord is
minor (as it is in most, but not all, minor tunes) you don't fool
anyone if you don't flat the 6th. I never understood why most
instructional materials recommend 3d position for minor keys instead
of 5th. There's not much recorded material in 5th position, though.
But playing in 5th allows the player to fit harp parts to all sorts
of tunes that don't have harp on the original and which most harp
players would not be able to handle on a diatonic. Overblows (which I
have not learned to do) are not necessarily required.
Of course, you can play minor in 4th position without having to
bend, but I consider 4th to be a straight harp position because you
are playing the harp in the relative minor of the key of the harp.
For example you use a C harp for A minor. But A minor is the same
key (same notes) as C major. You just start on a different note. So
you are actually playing the instrument in the key it is in. I am
able to play 4th, but never use it unless I want to play "All Along
the Watchtower" which was originally recorded by Dylan using 4th
position and may sound better in 4th instead of 5th. But 4th is like
playing in 1st. And i don't usually enjoy playing in 1st, although
i can do it when i have to. But if you like 4th you should love 5th!
JP
_______________________________________________
Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org
Har...@harp-l.org
http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l
Rick Dempster
Aug 28, 2008, 8:01:29 PM8/28/08
to John F. Potts, mfuga...@yahoo.com, har...@harp-l.org
I use 5th quite a bit too, and yes, it's perfect if the IV chord is minor. I think, John, if you listen to most pieces where 3rd is used, the IV chord IS major, which corresponds with the Dorian mode (which is what you are using if you are playing the 'natural' third position (ie no overblows etc.)
I use fourth occasionally, but if I want an 'open' I chord, it can be awkward because your root in the bass is a bent note (hole 3 down a tone)
I find 5th particularly powerful used with a tongue block.
RD
I use fourth occasionally, but if I want an 'open' I chord, it can be awkward because your root in the bass is a bent note (hole 3 down a tone)
I find 5th particularly powerful used with a tongue block.
RD
>>> "John F. Potts" <hv...@bex.net> 29/08/2008 9:42 >>>
Ken Deifik
Aug 28, 2008, 9:29:17 PM8/28/08
to har...@harp-l.org
At 04:42 PM 8/28/2008, John F. Potts wrote:
> I use 5th position regularly for minor keys.
> I use 5th position regularly for minor keys.
This was a first-rate post. Newer players, and anyone new to fifth
position should take note.
Steve Baker's Playalongs set has an excellent fifth position minor tune
that'll open up the subject for new players.
Ken
PT Gazell
Aug 28, 2008, 9:20:54 PM8/28/08
to Rick Dempster, John F. Potts, mfuga...@yahoo.com, har...@harp-l.org
I also like 5th position, and as most of you know I play valved diatonic. The combination of 5th and valving really makes minor key playing on richter tuned diatonics a real joy. Examples of 5th position playing can be heard on my new CD "Back To Back" which is a duet project I recorded with Brendan Power. "Till Tom Special" and the title track "Back To Back" are both done in 5th. In response to offlist inquiries, "Windy and Warm" is done in 4th position by playing a low Eb in Cm.
Thanks,
PT Gazell
p...@ptgazell.com
www.ptgazell.com
www.myspace.com/ptgazell
harmo...@comcast.net
Aug 29, 2008, 12:27:33 AM8/29/08
to har...@harp-l.org
John, thanks for the great technical info on 5th position. I always use the easy way out with the circle of 5ths chart I memorized from Charlie Musselwhites' " Harmonica According to Musselwhite "book . C-G-D-A-E-B-F#-C#-Ab-Eb-Bb-F I posted my first video on Youtube a little over a year ago with a song I played some 5th on. http://www.youtube.com/HARMONIMONSTER There are some Kim Wilson vids on there too for those who are interested.
Richard Hunter
Aug 29, 2008, 9:49:20 AM8/29/08
to har...@harp-l.org
"John F. Potts" wrote:
> I think 5th position is better for most minor key material than 3d
>position, because in 3rd position, you must bend to get the minor 6th
>which is the third note of the IV chord... and if the IV chord is
>minor (as it is in most, but not all, minor tunes) you don't fool
>anyone if you don't flat the 6th. I never understood why most
>instructional materials recommend 3d position for minor keys instead
>of 5th. There's not much recorded material in 5th position, though.
>But playing in 5th allows the player to fit harp parts to all sorts
>of tunes that don't have harp on the original and which most harp
>players would not be able to handle on a diatonic. Overblows (which I
>have not learned to do) are not necessarily required.
> I think 5th position is better for most minor key material than 3d
>position, because in 3rd position, you must bend to get the minor 6th
>which is the third note of the IV chord... and if the IV chord is
>minor (as it is in most, but not all, minor tunes) you don't fool
>anyone if you don't flat the 6th. I never understood why most
>instructional materials recommend 3d position for minor keys instead
>of 5th. There's not much recorded material in 5th position, though.
>But playing in 5th allows the player to fit harp parts to all sorts
>of tunes that don't have harp on the original and which most harp
>players would not be able to handle on a diatonic. Overblows (which I
>have not learned to do) are not necessarily required.
This is all true, and 5th position is certainly nice for lots of things. I feel obliged to point out that you get the same scale playing in 2nd position on a Natural Minor harp, while 1st position on a Natural Minor yields the same scale as 3rd position on a standard harp.
The advantage of the natural Minor, of course, is that in addition to being able to play the scale tones easily, using the same spatial reference points that you have in 2nd position on a standard harp (i.e. the 1st degree of the scale is in the same place, 5th is in the same place, etc.), you have lots of great-sounding chords to work with. It's pretty hard to play a chord on a Natural Minor that doesn't sound gorgeous.
Regards, Richard Hunter
latest mp3s and harmonica blog at http://myspace.com/richardhunterharp
captr...@aol.com
Aug 29, 2008, 12:04:40 PM8/29/08
to Har...@harp-l.org
JP wrote: ??????
??? As you probably know, in order to determine which harp to use in 5th?
position, you take the relative major of the minor key you wish to?
play and use the harp you would ordinarily use to play 2d position in?
that key.? For example, if you want to play in C minor, the relative?
major is Eflat, so you use an Aflat harp (the one you would use to?
play in Eflat major 2d position). Then? use 2 blow for root and you?
get C minor, without having to bend for the minor 3rd or the minor?
??? As you probably know, in order to determine which harp to use in 5th?
position, you take the relative major of the minor key you wish to?
play and use the harp you would ordinarily use to play 2d position in?
that key.? For example, if you want to play in C minor, the relative?
major is Eflat, so you use an Aflat harp (the one you would use to?
play in Eflat major 2d position). Then? use 2 blow for root and you?
get C minor, without having to bend for the minor 3rd or the minor?
6th (which is the minor 3rd on the IV chord).
? 5th position is what i use to play Ghost Riders in the Sky.? Works GREAT in 2 octaves.? The guy i play it with does it in Am, so i use an F harp.? Yes, the tonic note is the 2 hole blow.
ron
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