[Harp-L] Spiral tuning for a beginner: which key?

[chri...@grothesque.org]

Dear all,

I recently got a Richter-tuned harp in C-major and I can play some
tunes on it. I'm motivated to keep on learning. I'm not
particularly interested in blues, rather in all-round playing. As
a scientifically-minded person I find the irregularities of the
standard tuning irritating, so I got interested in alternative
tunings. I thought I could as well continue learning on a
spiral-tuned harp.

I wonder which key to choose (for the beginning I'd like to get a
single one only). As I'm most interested in playing solo without
other instruments, the relevant criterion seems to be the tonal
range. What would you suggest as a good compromise for all-round
playing? I find the upper tones of my C-major Richter rather
squeaky, while I think that some lower tones wouldn't hurt. But
then, as a beginner, I would like to be able to play simple
C-major tunes without bends at more-or-less their official pitch.
I think this means that I should get a harp where 2-draw is C4.
But won't this one be too low for all-round playing in the lower
octave that starts with 2-draw? Perhaps a better choice is to
choose G4 as 2-draw. But then, if I understand correctly, playing
C5-major will require a bend (perhaps that's easy enough).

It seems to me that Seydel’s default, the “compromised tuning” is
a good choice for all-round playing with some chords. Can you
confirm this?

Finally, the manufacturer offers to half-valve the harp. I
understand that this is not something for beginners, but is it a
good idea to half-valve the harp right-away for the future? I
read that this modifies the sound a bit, but otherwise there are
no downsides.

By the way, I notice that even though spiral tuning makes all the
notes of a key directly available, the additional notes from
blow-bends are different from octave to octave (depending on
whether the tonic is on draw or blow). I wonder about the
practical significance of this (also for choosing the key).

Many thanks
Christoph

[Rudolf Nasahl]

Hi Christoph,

It seems to me you are going the same way as myself.
I also want to play any and all music, not particularly the Blues, and thought this may best be done with Richter tuned blues harps.
After a long way of try and error with otherwise tuned makes and models I ended up with
Solo tuned Seydel Fanfare in C and one in G
Here is the tuning table for the C model:

Tontabelle - Fanfare Tremolo Solo
blasen c' e' g' c'' c'' e'' g'' c''' c''' e''' g''' c''''
Kanal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
ziehen d' f' a' b' d'' f'' a'' b'' d''' f''' a''' b’''

And my beloved alternative is the Seydel Orchestra in Low C, which I think may meet your expectations. Here the tuning table:

Tontabelle - Orchestra in LC
blasen g c' c' e' g' c'' c'' e'' g'' c'''
Kanal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
ziehen a b d' f' a' b' d'' f'' a'' b''

Der tiefste Grundton der Dur-Skala befindet sich in 3 blasen!

I also play Seydel Blues Session with circular tuning, but more and more seldomly.

Give the Seydel Orchestra in LC your first choice.

I am not employed and not paid by Seydel. I play Hohner, Suzuki and Lee Oscar as well. Each brand has its strenght,

Kind regards

Rudi Nasahl

[rex]

You find the upper range of your C harp high. Spiral tuning will start you lower on that same harmonica. I assume you are starting your C scale at blow 4. Most beginners don't bend in the first 3 holes or start their melodies at blow 1. Spiral will start the major scale at draw 2. Another complete major scale will start at blow 6. A spiral that plays a G scale starting at draw 2 will share a lot of notes with your current C Richter. If you want to play in C there are a few options. The harp that plays a G major scale starting at draw 2 can also play a C scale starting at blow 4 if you bend the draw 5. However, that harp cannot play a C scale starting at blow 1 because that note has been tuned up to fit the spiral pattern. You are really better off playing the major scale in first position on you standard Richter in that case and avoiding the bend. A spiral that starts the major scale with a C at draw 2 can be based on a low F or a standard F. In the first case the draw 2 C will be one octave lower than your currnet blow 4 C and the blow 6 on the spiral will be the same as your current blow 4. In the second case the draw 2 will be the same as your current blow 4. I have both standard and low F harps retuned to Melody Maker tuning (which plays the same major scale as a spiral does from draw 2 to blow 6 in second position). Both are useful depending on where you want the bends to fall or what register you want to be in. Another option is retuning a Bb harp to play in F  major second position starting on the draw 2. That harp would be one step lower (C to Bb) than your current C Richter. You can play a C major scale on that harp by bending the draw 4 C note to a B note to get the major seventh. The blow 4 Bb note is the flatted seventh, another useful note. Such a harp plays in F in second position and in C in third position. I have a Bb that I retuned to Melody Maker in F and it can play well in C. By the way, I find the Meldoy Maker and the Spiral to be very similar and very good for single note melodies. The Spiral is a special order harp but you can make a Melody Maker yourself out of any Richter you like. The Country tuned harp is another option for playing major key melodies in second. It is even more versitile but you must learn the draw 3 bend well to get the second degree of the major scale. It is very easy to switch between Richters, Melody Makers and Country tuned harps. The spiral is very different in the upper octave.

I would not consider half valving at this stage. Learn your standard bends very well first. After you do that you may find you have no need for half valving. Guys like Brendan Power and PT Gazell make wonderful music with half valved harps but mastering the standard bending techniques should come first. But if you want to play like PT then by all means put forth the effort and learn half valved bends. 

As for solo tuned diatonics you sould determine where you may want to go with your music. Second position harps like the spiral, Melody Maker, or Country tuned will eventually lead you to note bending.You will be able to play many tunes that use accidentals on those harps. Bent notes in second or third position are very useful. Bent notes in first are not as useful. Solo tuned harps will allow you to play simple melodies in first position without bending but they come in few keys and the availble bends are usually not the notes you want to bend. The solo tuned diatonic will keep you playing simple tunes in first or will lead you on to the chromatic. That is not a bad thing. It depends on what you want to play and the sound you prefer. 

[chri...@grothesque.org]

Rex, thank you for your detailed and helpful reply!

I didn’t realize that Melody Maker and Spiral are so closely
related. Actually, now that I had a close look at both, I wonder
(just out of curiosity) why Melody Maker has the last 4 holes
inverted. Is it to keep it more similar to Richter (and make
retuning simpler)? Or does this inversion offer some
possibilities that Spiral does not provide? (C-E-G chords?)

I know that some would say that I should practice playing instead
of studying tunings, but I actually like to do both. I find harp
tunings by themselves a very interesting optimization problem (and
a vehicle to learn some music theory.) There are so many
contradicting aspects! Now that I learned a bit more about
tunings, I’m not so sure anymore whether I should go for spiral.
Perhaps in the end I will choose Power Bender.

So for now I will stick with my C-major-Richter and practice my
bends, until I know whether I’d like to optimize my harp more for
bends, or more for melody playing / chords.

Disregarding popularity, are there actually any aspects in which
Richter is superior to Power Bender? It looses the ungapped
sequence of C-E-G chords in blow which I suppose is useful when
playing in first position with tongue blocking. Is this actually
the original reason for that C-E-G sequence?

Thanks
Christoph

[Gary Lehmann]

I notice a similarity in several tunings--the bottom of Major Cross (Tony
Eyers) is circular, hole 3-6 of Melody Maker is Power Chromatic.

[esk...@juno.com]

I am a huge fan of the spiral (circular, Zirk) tuning, and since discovering it have abandoned all other tunings on my non-chromatics. I play mainly American fiddle tunes and Bluegrass on them (I use the chromatics for Irish and Canadian tunes), so if I could only have ONE, it would be the key of "A". Unlike the Richters, Zirks are named in the "cross key", so just as "C" is kind of the standard Richter harp to have (which gives the cross harp key of "G" for blues), "G" would be the Zirk equivalent, AND, played "straight" it will give you all the natural notes in the key of "C". That said, another of the advantages of the Zirk is the wider variety of positions you can use as a tonic, enabling one to take advantage of various modes in a more intuitive way. That said, there's always a trade-off, so while you can still play good blues, some of the traditional blues harp effects are lost. I'm thinking of experimenting with some half-valves, not to get the notes, but to be able to bend some of the blow notes in some tunes. Cheers, emily
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 00:39:52 +0200
From: chri...@grothesque.org
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Spiral tuning for a beginner: which key?
To: rex <re...@juno.com>
Cc: har...@harp-l.org
Message-ID: <87iocng...@grothesque.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

Rex, thank you for your detailed and helpful reply!

I didnâ&euro;&trade;t realize that Melody Maker and Spiral are so closely

related. Actually, now that I had a close look at both, I wonder
(just out of curiosity) why Melody Maker has the last 4 holes
inverted. Is it to keep it more similar to Richter (and make
retuning simpler)? Or does this inversion offer some
possibilities that Spiral does not provide? (C-E-G chords?)

I know that some would say that I should practice playing instead
of studying tunings, but I actually like to do both. I find harp
tunings by themselves a very interesting optimization problem (and
a vehicle to learn some music theory.) There are so many
contradicting aspects! Now that I learned a bit more about

tunings, Iâ&euro;&trade;m not so sure anymore whether I should go for spiral.

Perhaps in the end I will choose Power Bender.

So for now I will stick with my C-major-Richter and practice my

bends, until I know whether Iâ&euro;&trade;d like to optimize my harp more for

bends, or more for melody playing / chords.

Disregarding popularity, are there actually any aspects in which
Richter is superior to Power Bender? It looses the ungapped
sequence of C-E-G chords in blow which I suppose is useful when
playing in first position with tongue blocking. Is this actually
the original reason for that C-E-G sequence?

Thanks
Christoph

____________________________________________________________
Don’t Starve Yourself Fat
Learn how to kick-start your body&#39;s fat burning hormone...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5538439e6136e439e4a61st03vuc

[rex]

The Melody Maker doesn't have the last 4 holes inverted....the Spiral does. Spiral is a great tuning but it is also unique. I play Melody Maker in second mostly. Because it is based on the Richter I find I can play first position tunes on Richters or Asian tremolo harps (another fun harmonica) or Paddy Richters and switch between tunings with no problems. I suppose some can switch between vastly different tunings at will but I am not that clever. I had already settled on Melody Makers and Country tuned harps before the Spiral hit the market or I may have considered it just like you are now. You will have to buy Spirals from whomever will make one for you. You can easily make your own Paddy or Country or Melody Maker from any off the shelf Richter. Seydel is a good company. I have one and like it but didn't think the stainless steel reeds were any better than the cheaper brass I was already using and brass is easier to retune. The reason for the blow note pattern on Richters is to provide a tonic chord to accompany yourself on simple folk tunes. Go to You Tube and search for Sam Hinton. He was a master at that old time style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcSLudnKFPA

There is a series of 17 videos that will give you a fine overview of old time harp.

[chri...@grothesque.org]

Robert Hale wrote:

> The single ultimate truth about harp is: you are going to
> compromise SOMETHING, to gain something else. That's what makes
> the search so individual and why so many variations continue to
> emerge.

Right... Just one more crazy idea: wouldn’t a spiral-tuned
super-bend (SUB30-style) combine the best of both worlds?

Christoph

[Robert Hale]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 3:39 PM, <chri...@grothesque.org> wrote:

> why Melody Maker has the last 4 holes inverted.

​I believe Lee Oskar did a wise thing by offering two altered tunings which
are learnable by the diatonic player.​ It builds on what you are familiar
with, altering only 3 notes, and leads a player to other tunings and modes.
It's comprehensible. Had he introduced a Spiral, for example, the discovery
and acceptance would have been minimized and stunted.

Interesting that the Major sound of the Melody Maker can be played a third
down in its relative minor.
Conversely, the Natural Minor is easily played up a third to its relative
Major.
And finally, one Spiral harp does BOTH of those really well!
(Find out if my 6 short videos can help in the discovery of Spiral.
http://trix.ws/RG02m )

The single ultimate truth about harp is: you are going to compromise
SOMETHING, to gain something else. That's what makes the search so
individual and why so many variations continue to emerge.

But just be careful that you don't become a COLLECTOR rather than a PLAYER.
<grin>



--

Robert Hale is the DUKE of WAIL
*________________________*

*Music Lessons for Adults and Children *
Harmonica, Steel Guitar, Dobro, Piano Tuner
*Distance Learning via Webcam*
DUKEofWAIL.com <http://www.dukeofwail.com/>
*480-720-8897*

<http://www.youtube.com/dukeofwail#p/u/12/jfCJCe_hUMY> Take a Free Lesson
<http://www.youtube.com/dukeofwail#p/u/12/jfCJCe_hUMY> *
<http://www.facebook.com/DUKEofWAIL> *Follow me
<http://www.facebook.com/DUKEofWAIL>

[Gary Lehmann]

I have a SUB 30 I tuned to Major Cross, so it is circular up to hole 7.