[Harp-L] Seydel Spiral (Circular) Tuning

[Harmonicology [Neil Ashby]]

Your (e-mail) comment that Seydel labels their circular-tuned harmonics in the 12th position is quite interesting but would it be more clear instead to phrase that as to indicate that Seydel tunes their circular-tuned harmonicas for the 12th position of the label; whatever circular-tuned harmonicas that Seydel labels as "C" are tuned for the corresponding 12th position which has "F" at 2-draw]?

I figure that many users would remember the positions along the "Circle of Fifths" more easily than they remember the proper name of each mode.

I was not reading Harp-L at the time of the spiral-tuning debate; are there any negative issues pertaining to circular-tuning other than some slightly less overall range (which causes me to wonder whether the 12-hole circular-tuned harmonica was attempted).

/Neil Ashby (" http://thebuskingproject.com/busker/2025/ ")

[Winslow Yerxa]

Unfortunately, Seydel has it wrong. Here's what they say on their website. 

=====

Circular/Melody King
The major scale can be played simply by alternating draws and blows (no note bending is required). On a Circular tuned harmonica up to 12 different chords can be played depending upon which channels are played at a time. Therefore it's not so easy to label this tuning correctly. The first note in channel one blow is the key displayed on the harp, though the major scale is playable 5 semitones (a fourth) higher than the key the harp is labelled in. In the 12-hole variant (Low Octave) the lower notes in 1-3 are tuned as holes 4-6 but one octave lower.
=====

If the harp plays in the key of C, then C is first position. It doesn't matter what the notes is in the first hole.

 
Winslow Yerxa
President, SPAH, the Society for the Preservation and Advancement of the Harmonica
Producer, the Spring 2014 Harmonica Collective
Author, Harmonica For Dummies, ISBN 978-0-470-33729-5
            Harmonica Basics For Dummies, ASIN B005KIYPFS
            Blues Harmonica For Dummies, ISBN 978-1-1182-5269-7
Resident Expert, bluesharmonica.com
Instructor, Jazzschool for Music Study and Performance

________________________________
From: Harmonicology [Neil Ashby] <harmon...@hushmail.com>
To: Robert Coble <robert...@hotmail.com>; harp-l <har...@harp-l.org>
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 11:08 AM
Subject: [Harp-L] Seydel Spiral (Circular) Tuning

[Harmonicology [Neil Ashby]]

To complete that concept then the (circular-tuned) harmonica that Seydel has labeled as "C" should be labeled as "F" and the (circular-tuned) harmonica that Seydel has labeled as "D" should be labeled as "G" et cetera, et cetera.

Was there any reason other than usual pattern for the Richter-tuned 2nd position then that Seydel put the tonic on draw-2 instead of draw-1?

[rex]

The Seydel Circular and the Lee Oskar Melody Maker and the Major Cross all have the same

pattern of a major scale from draw 2 to blow 6. Oskar chose to label in cross position and has

been doing so for at least a couple decades. I find it most useful to call these harps by the

note in draw 2 and blow 6. Hohner choose to label their harps designed to play

in cross position by the note in blow 1 (Country tuned and Natural Minor). Lee Oskar labels

Natural Minors by the draw 2. I can see the reasoning behind each method. It would be nice

if there was a standard. It is up to us to figure out what we need. When I retune a Bb to Melody Maker

tuning I call it an F because that is the key I will use it in most of the time. If I retuned a C

it is now a G, etc.

Seydel sells a Melodic Maker which is tuned like a Lee Oskar Melody Maker and I seem to

remember they started labeling it the same, by the draw 2, but I could be wrong on that. 

[Winslow Yerxa]

You'd have to ask Seydel to know their reason for sure.

I suspect that the reason may have to do with their perception that having notes below tonic of the scale is desirable, as many melodies go below the tonic note of the scale.

For instance, they produce their so-called "Orchestra-tuned" chromatics that are in C but start on G below middle C.

They also have a solo-tuned 10-hole diatonic model, The Orchestra S (based on the Session Steel model) that is likewise in Orchestra tuning. At the Harmonica Collective next week, we'll have one of those harmonicas, donated by Seydel USA, in our Saturday auction/raffle.

Winslow

 
Winslow Yerxa
President, SPAH, the Society for the Preservation and Advancement of the Harmonica
Producer, the Spring 2014 Harmonica Collective
Author, Harmonica For Dummies, ISBN 978-0-470-33729-5
            Harmonica Basics For Dummies, ASIN B005KIYPFS
            Blues Harmonica For Dummies, ISBN 978-1-1182-5269-7
Resident Expert, bluesharmonica.com
Instructor, Jazzschool for Music Study and Performance

________________________________
From: Harmonicology [Neil Ashby] <harmon...@hushmail.com>

To: harp-l <har...@harp-l.org>
Cc: Winslow Yerxa <winslo...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 2:16 PM
Subject: Seydel Spiral (Circular) Tuning

[Harmonicology [Neil Ashby]]

Winslow's point is that the naming convention should be such that the harmonica is labeled according the fully available SCALE regardless of whereat that scale starts on the harmonica; that seems to be the correct standard.

The circular-tuned harmonica that has the full G-Major scale would be (correctly) labeled as "G" instead of being Sydel mislabeled as "D".

/Neil Ashby (" http://thebuskingproject.com/busker/2025/ ")

On Friday, May 23, 2014 at 3:55 PM, "Robert Hale" <rob...@dukeofwail.com> wrote:
>
>On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 11:16 AM, Harmonicology [Neil Ashby] <
>harmon...@hushmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Was there any reason ... that Seydel put the tonic on draw-2
>instead of
>> draw-1?
>
>
>I like that Seydel spirals feel like 2P from D2 to B6. Keep in
>mind that
>any repeating pattern could begin and end at any hole on the harp.
>I think
>Pat Missin's site has some discussion of spirals that begin with
>the tonic
>on D3, for example.
>
>Robert Hale
>Spiral Advocate (Fanatic!)
>Learn Harmonica by Webcam
>http://www.youtube.com/DUKEofWAIL
> http://www.dukeofwail.com

[Robert Hale]

On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 11:16 AM, Harmonicology [Neil Ashby] <
harmon...@hushmail.com> wrote:

> Was there any reason ... that Seydel put the tonic on draw-2 instead of
> draw-1?

[Robert Hale]

On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 8:08 AM, Harmonicology [Neil Ashby] <
harmon...@hushmail.com> wrote:

> are there any negative issues pertaining to circular-tuning other than
> some slightly less overall range

SPIRAL
Oh, I think we all come to moments in free-style playing, where we wish for
another note or two. But I haven't found it troubling at all. And I've
never felt limited by the "slightly less overall range."

As Winslow correctly stated (more than once), every tuning scheme has its
benefits and disadvantages. The joy of playing the WHOLE HARP while
improvising on Spiral is everything to me!

[Robert Coble]

Winslow (as always, the epitome of common sense) opines:

"*I suspect that the reason may have to do with their perception 

that having notes below tonic of the scale is desirable, as many 

melodies go below the tonic note of the scale.*"

This is especially true of the genre(s) of music that I normally 
play: country, bluegrass, old time, gospel. Lots of the melodies
drop down to the 5th scale degree and then walk back up to the
tonic. Or, the song will start on the 5th scale degree and work 
its way up the harp.

As an example, here's a fairly simple bluegrass gospel song, 
written by Mark "Brink" Brinkman: _Beyond The Rain_ (played on piano).

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=swjxEFH_rAY

If that doesn't work as a link, try a Google search for:

youtube mark "brink" brinkman beyond the rain

The song starts on the hole 1 blow note of a Seydel Zirkular "G".
That would be, ahem, a G3 note (5th scale degree of the underlying 
"C" major scale). It then goes up the harp from there. It lays out
nicely on the Seydel Zirkular harp, and is very easy to play by ear.

BTW, after the first two verses/choruses, it transposes up from
"C" major to "D" major. At that point, I switch harps to a Seydel 
Zirkular "A" harp, and repeat the last verse/chorus. 

No missing notes anywhere: SERENDIPITY!!

Have fun!
Crazy Bob

[Wilbur Euler]

Crazy Bob, Thanks for the heads up on Mark Brinkman. Not only Beyond The Rain, the whole
album is great. Thanks again.
Regards, Wil Euler

Sent from my iPad