[Harp-L] Re: Juke
Randy G.
only one variance was engineered in post for the pressing. I have
heard three versions from that session iirc, and they are all
different. The two that were not used were not the full tune as L.W.
stopped part way through to give the band directions or make
comments. IMO, L.W. had a direction he was taking with the tune, but
it was more of a jam session than a scored piece, at least to say
that this is a reasonable conclusion to reach after listening to the
recordings.
The missing beats (or change in time) was, again IMO, an accident.
His band was so accustomed to playing with him they just followed
along as opposed to L.W. following the band. I think you will find
that Dave Barrett agrees with this (that is where I heard the
recordnigs)- The School of the Blues sells a T-shirt that says, "I
play Little Walter's Mistakes" which refers to the above.
From Randy G. Blues
Live to Play - Play to Live
http://www.myspace.com/RandyGBlues
http://www.myspace.com/PhatBoyzBlue
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scott
First, regarding the second chorus of Juke: listen closely, and I think it's evident that it was the guitarist who jumped time at the beginning of the chorus, and Little Walter who adjusts on the fly to follow him, rather than the other way around.
Listen to the rhythmic stabs played on the guitar through the first chorus - they answer the famous lick LW is playing as the head. LW then starts the second chorus playing a different lick, in perfect time, but the guitar continues playing the same 'answer' lick, which unfortunately is now answering something LW is no longer playing. As a result, the guitar is now playing OVER what LW is playing, so the guitar jumps time and fumbles around a bit trying to get back in time with LW. Because LW is playing a one note rhythm lick at the time, he dog-paddles, and hangs on it for a second until the guitar settles back into a recognizable pattern, then rejoins him at the chord change, and is back in synch from then onward. Also notice that after this slight mishap with the 'rhythmic stabs' idea, the guitarist abandons it and plays it safe with a basic boogie woogie pattern for the rest of the song. Little Walter knew what he was doing.
I'm not sure what Randy is referring to below when he writes about a variance being engineered in post for the pressing. I've listened to the entire original Juke session tape, and only two takes were ever completed. The classic version, chisled into granite in the minds of many harp players as the national anthem of blues harp, is in fact the first completed take of the very first song attempted at Little Walter's very first session on his own for Chess. This is followed by an attempt that breaks down immediately when the band stumbles to a halt as the drummer screws up the intro. Seconds later they begin the next attempt, which is the vastly different alternate take of Juke that was first released in the 1990s. And that's it. No more takes of Juke were attempted, and no more takes exist other than these two, which were released exactly as performed, with no edits or other studio trickery.
Randy's right that Juke wasn't a scored piece - LW didn't know what a score was. But I also think it was something more than a "jam session". Based on how fully realized both existing takes of Juke are, I think both takes are examples of things they'd been doing on the bandstand - obviously two different themes, but probably both were used as flexible / half-improvised 'break songs' on live gigs.
BTW, Hip-O Select is scheduled to releases their 5 CD Complete Little Walter box set in March. It will contain everything that was on the 1992 4 CD LW box on Charly, plus another full CD of material that was not included in that earlier, allegedly "complete" collection.
Back to lurking...
Scott
> http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l
robert mcgraw
Thanks Scott...loved the book!
WVa Bob> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 00:16:54 -0800> From: check...@yahoo.com> Subject: [Harp-L] Re: Juke> To: har...@harp-l.org> CC: check...@yahoo.com> > (Lured out of lurk mode...)> > First, regarding the second chorus of Juke: listen closely, and I think it's evident that it was the guitarist who jumped time at the beginning of the chorus, and Little Walter who adjusts on the fly to follow him, rather than the other way around. > > Listen to the rhythmic stabs played on the guitar through the first chorus - they answer the famous lick LW is playing as the head. LW then starts the second chorus playing a different lick, in perfect time, but the guitar continues playing the same 'answer' lick, which unfortunately is now answering something LW is no longer playing. As a result, the guitar is now playing OVER what LW is playing, so the guitar jumps time and fumbles around a bit trying to get back in time with LW. Because LW is playing a one note rhythm lick at the time, he dog-paddles, and hangs on it for a second until the guitar settles back into a recognizable pattern, then rejoins him at the chord change, and is back in synch from then onward. Also notice that after this slight mishap with the 'rhythmic stabs' idea, the guitarist abandons it and plays it safe with a basic boogie woogie pattern for the rest of the song. Little Walter knew what he was doing.> > I'm not sure what Randy is referring to below when he writes about a variance being engineered in post for the pressing. I've listened to the entire original Juke session tape, and only two takes were ever completed. The classic version, chisled into granite in the minds of many harp players as the national anthem of blues harp, is in fact the first completed take of the very first song attempted at Little Walter's very first session on his own for Chess. This is followed by an attempt that breaks down immediately when the band stumbles to a halt as the drummer screws up the intro. Seconds later they begin the next attempt, which is the vastly different alternate take of Juke that was first released in the 1990s. And that's it. No more takes of Juke were attempted, and no more takes exist other than these two, which were released exactly as performed, with no edits or other studio trickery.> > Randy's right that Juke wasn't a scored piece - LW didn't know what a score was. But I also think it was something more than a "jam session". Based on how fully realized both existing takes of Juke are, I think both takes are examples of things they'd been doing on the bandstand - obviously two different themes, but probably both were used as flexible / half-improvised 'break songs' on live gigs.> > BTW, Hip-O Select is scheduled to releases their 5 CD Complete Little Walter box set in March. It will contain everything that was on the 1992 4 CD LW box on Charly, plus another full CD of material that was not included in that earlier, allegedly "complete" collection.> > Back to lurking...> > Scott> > > --- In harp-l-...@yahoogroups.com, "Randy G." <frcn@...> wrote:> >> > There is an extant original recording of the Juke session. Evidently, > > only one variance was engineered in post for the pressing. I have > > heard three versions from that session iirc, and they are all > > different. The two that were not used were not the full tune as L.W. > > stopped part way through to give the band directions or make > > comments. IMO, L.W. had a direction he was taking with the tune, but > > it was more of a jam session than a scored piece, at least to say > > that this is a reasonable conclusion to reach after listening to the > > recordings.> > > > The missing beats (or change in time) was, again IMO, an accident. > > His band was so accustomed to playing with him they just followed > > along as opposed to L.W. following the band. I think you will find > > that Dave Barrett agrees with this (that is where I heard the > > recordnigs)- The School of the Blues sells a T-shirt that says, "I > > play Little Walter's Mistakes" which refers to the above.> > > > From Randy G. Blues> > Live to Play - Play to Live> > http://www.myspace.com/RandyGBlues> > http://www.myspace.com/PhatBoyzBlue> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________> > Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org> > Harp-L@...> > http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l> >> > > > > _______________________________________________> Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org> Har...@harp-l.org> http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l
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Bill Rossoll
the band used as a break lead-in. Little Walter originally called it
something like "Your Cat Will Play". He reportedly got the theme from
something that Sunnyland Slim was doing. The rhythm "irregularities" are
simply mistakes.Is all that true? Dunno. I do know this, though. George
Smith felt no compulsion to duplicate the "mistakes". He straightened it
out and kicked some serious butt in the process. Here's a youtube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AVEzq3wMfg
Tom Albanese
listening for the millionth time to the tunes as I go. Really puts it all
into place. Folks talk about what is a "must" for blues harp players. "Blues
With a Feeling" by Scott Dirks and his co-authors Tony Glover and Ward Gains
is a definite must read for any one who wants to get past the myths and get
some very clear insight into the world of Little Walter. Essential reading.
Thanks.
tom albanese
http://www.myspace.com/bigrealdeal
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 6:21 AM, robert mcgraw <har...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Scott...loved the book!
Icem...@aol.com
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dw1MUlTGOA&NR=1_
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dw1MUlTGOA&NR=1)
In a message dated 1/23/2009 7:28:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
billr...@gmail.com writes:
The story I have heard/read about Juke is that it was simply a jam that
the band used as a break lead-in. Little Walter originally called it
something like "Your Cat Will Play". He reportedly got the theme from
something that Sunnyland Slim was doing. The rhythm "irregularities" are
simply mistakes.Is all that true? Dunno. I do know this, though. George
Smith felt no compulsion to duplicate the "mistakes". He straightened it
out and kicked some serious butt in the process. Here's a youtube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AVEzq3wMfg
_______________________________________________
Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org
Har...@harp-l.org
http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l
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Richard Hunter
billr...@gmail.com wrote:
The story I have heard/read about Juke is that it was simply a jam that
<the band used as a break lead-in. Little Walter originally called it
<something like "Your Cat Will Play". He reportedly got the theme from
<something that Sunnyland Slim was doing. The rhythm "irregularities" are
<simply mistakes.
I heard that Walter heard Junior Wells play the tune in a club one night, and made sure to record it as soon as possible after. But whatever.
Walter came out of the rural blues tradition, and changes to the meter of a bar or the structure of a 12-bar chorus weren't unusual in that tradition. Apparently what mattered most was a strong pulse, not the number of bars in a chorus. Listen to the live recording of pianist Champion Jack Dupree at the Montreaux jazz festival--his sidemen, great musicians all, are constantly surprised by what he's doing to the form.
We hear that stuff as a rhythmic irregularity or a mistake. I'm sure that to Walter and his bandmates in late forties/early fifties Chicago, it was just the way the music was played.
Regards, Richard Hunter
latest mp3s and harmonica blog at http://myspace.com/richardhunterharp
Winslow Yerxa
Lacking a strict sense of meter or form was not uncommon in the rural south, especially among musicians who played without accompaniment. It could be that at certain moments in Juke, Walter was simply reverting to old habits.
I'm not where I can check, but it seems to me that there is one other place in Juke where the time departs from the norm. It's a few verses in, during the part of the tune where the chord has returned from the IV chord to the I chord, just before going to the the V chord. Walter adds 2 beats to the last measure of I just before playing the lick that launches the V chord.
Anyone else notice this?
Winslow
Winslow Yerxa
Author, Harmonica For Dummies ISBN 978-0-470-33729-5
--- On Fri, 1/23/09, Richard Hunter <turtl...@earthlink.net> wrote:
From: Richard Hunter <turtl...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Re: Juke
To: har...@harp-l.org
Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 2:40 PM
Ray Beltran
On Jan 23, 2009, at 11:28 AM, harp-l-...@harp-l.org wrote:
> Message: 15
> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:45:42 EST
> From: Icem...@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Re: Juke
> To: har...@harp-l.org
> Message-ID: <d62.297afa...@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> this one is more representative of the original - love the band's
> support....
>
> _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dw1MUlTGOA&NR=1_
> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dw1MUlTGOA&NR=1)
Rick is playing through a HarpKing here, which employs the same
electronics as Kinder's AFB+.
Thought I'd mention this as a good example of how the device affects -
or doesn't - tone.
Okay, back to what he said... sorry.
Ray.
--
My Music – www.resgraphics.com/music_______________________________________________
Icem...@aol.com
Jack or John Lee, we would have heard this "crooked tune" format more often
in his music. This may have just been an example of musicians landing on
their feet after someone got lost in the form, before PERFECTION in final mix
became the rule for releasing recorded music.
In a message dated 1/23/2009 5:42:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
turtl...@earthlink.net writes:
Walter came out of the rural blues tradition, and changes to the meter of a
bar or the structure of a 12-bar chorus weren't unusual in that tradition.
Apparently what mattered most was a strong pulse, not the number of bars in a
chorus. Listen to the live recording of pianist Champion Jack Dupree at the
Montreaux jazz festival--his sidemen, great musicians all, are constantly
surprised by what he's doing to the form.
We hear that stuff as a rhythmic irregularity or a mistake. I'm sure that
to Walter and his bandmates in late forties/early fifties Chicago, it was just
the way the music was played.
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
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scott
I've read the same interview. I also spoke with Jimmy Rogers about Little Walter on numerous occasions. Jimmy had a problem with Little Walter - he never passed up an opportunity to bring Walter down a notch or two when people asked about him, which was often. Billy Boy Arnold has said that Jimmy resented the fact that after Jimmy's first Chess recordings with Walter on harp were successful, Leonard Chess decided to continue to bring Walter in to play on Jimmy's sessions. Jimmy apparently felt he didn't need the help of somone he considered a young upstart, but when his later non-Walter recordings stiffed, Chess insisted he be brought back, even though he was never actually a member of Jimmy's own band. It rubbed Jimmy the wrong way, and he never completely got over it.
This is all to provide some context to my contention that Jimmy was willfully wrong about Little Walter's alleged timing problems. The recorded evidence simply doesn't bear it out - in fact, it proves just the opposite. Before Muddy and Jimmy ever got together with Walter to "straighten out his timing", Walter recorded on six songs for the Ora Nelle label (two takes each of three different songs) in 1947. His timing almost perfect on every one. I've just listened again to refresh my memory, and the sole instance of jumped or flubbed time I can find anywhere is in the first harp solo in the alternate take of "Just Keep Loving Her", where he jumps to the IV one beat ahead of the guitarist. Interestingly, two of these Ora Nelle recordings were made backing Jimmy Rogers himself - this is before Jimmy introduced Walter to Muddy - and both of them are dead-on perfect, timing-wise. His harp is locked in with Jimmy's guitar like they'd been
playing together for years.
In 1948, sometime around the time LW began playing with Muddy and Jimmy, he recorded two sides leading a band that included Sunnyland Slim for the Tempo Tone label. His timing both vocally and on harp is faultless - he never jumps time by even a single beat at any point.
My point is that Walter may have had more than his share of faults, but bad or "country" timing was never a big problem. His timing was actually a lot better than many of his contemporaries on the scene, including Muddy.
I think Jimmy may have overstated Walter's problems for a several reasons. As mentioned above, I think he held some resentment for him professionally. I also think it's possible that Jimmy thought Walter's early style, which had been influenced by some elements outside of Jimmy's scope of reference such as New Orleans jazz and Louisiana cajun and creole music, may have sounded "wrong" to Jimmy simply because he didn't recognize the slightly different rhythmic feel, or thought the differences didn't fit in with Jimmy's more orthodox Delta blues style. Walter was also a much busier harp player as an accompanist than just about anyone before him, including John Lee Williamson (a hero to both Walter and Jimmy), and that may have sounded a bit 'off' to Jimmy's ears.
By the way, none of this is meant as a put down to Jimmy Rogers. He was one of my all time favorite bluesmen, who I saw dozens of times, had the pleasure of talking with many times, and sat in with quite a few times as well. I'm only pointing out that his assessment of LW's skills may have less than totally objective and fact-based. (Hey, we're all human. No matter how great he may be, I can't stand Sugar Blue's music because he was jerk to me personally.)
About the other timing issue in Juke, you're right, there's definitely an extra beat or two in there in the third chorus, going into the V chord. No excuses there - it sounds like he was just playing a phrase that went on a little longer than it should have. But as someone very astutely pointed out elsewhere in this thread, I don't think that ANY of these minor timing irregularities were necessarily viewed as "mistakes" at the time - it was just how the blues was played by these guys back then.
Scott
--- In harp-l-...@yahoogroups.com, Winslow Yerxa <winslowyerxa@...> wrote:
>
> I remember reading a long interview with Muddy Waters guitarist Jimmy Rogers in Living Blues, circa 1974. Rogers stated that when he first met Walter, Walter was a brilliant but wild kid with no proper sense of time (beats in a bar, bars on a blues verse) and that Rogers and Waters taught him to play in time.
>
> Lacking a strict sense of meter or form was not uncommon in the rural south, especially among musicians who played without accompaniment. It could be that at certain moments in Juke, Walter was simply reverting to old habits.
>
> I'm not where I can check, but it seems to me that there is one other place in Juke where the time departs from the norm. It's a few verses in, during the part of the tune where the chord has returned from the IV chord to the I chord, just before going to the the V chord. Walter adds 2 beats to the last measure of I just before playing the lick that launches the V chord.
>
> Anyone else notice this?
>
> Winslow
>
> Winslow Yerxa
>
> Author, Harmonica For Dummies ISBN 978-0-470-33729-5
>
> From: Richard Hunter <turtlehill@...>
> Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Re: Juke
> Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 2:40 PM
>
>
> billrossoll@... wrote:
> The story I have heard/read about Juke is that it was simply a jam that
> <the band used as a break lead-in. Little Walter originally called it
> <something like "Your Cat Will Play". He reportedly got the theme
> from
> <something that Sunnyland Slim was doing. The rhythm
> "irregularities" are
> <simply mistakes.
>
> I heard that Walter heard Junior Wells play the tune in a club one night, and
> made sure to record it as soon as possible after. But whatever.
>
> or the structure of a 12-bar chorus weren't unusual in that tradition.
> Apparently what mattered most was a strong pulse, not the number of bars in a
> chorus. Listen to the live recording of pianist Champion Jack Dupree at the
> Montreaux jazz festival--his sidemen, great musicians all, are constantly
> surprised by what he's doing to the form.
>
> We hear that stuff as a rhythmic irregularity or a mistake. I'm sure that
> to Walter and his bandmates in late forties/early fifties Chicago, it was just
> the way the music was played.
>
> http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org
> http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l