[Harp-L] Rick Epping: the Father of Embossing
Brendan Power
reed-slot embossing might have begun.
There is no need for guesswork; in his own words, here is the story of how
it all began by the originator, Rick Epping:
http://www.brendan-power.com/images/HW%20Dec%20Jan%2013_Rick.pdf
Brendan Power
WEBSITES: <http://www.brendan-power.com/> www.brendan-power.com ●
www.x-reed.com
FACEBOOK: <http://www.facebook.com/tethnik> www.facebook.com/tethnik
YOUTUBE: <http://www.youtube.com/BrendanPowerMusic>
www.youtube.com/BrendanPowerMusic
Vern
However, it is a process and not a result. His article leaves the quantitative questions unanswered.
Q. What were the clearances in fractions of an inch or mm that the player's found to be excessive?
Q. What is the optimum clearance? Is it different for different reed lengths?
Q. What is the best way to measure clearance?
Q. Is it more important in diatonics than in chromatics where valves block leakage through the opening reed?
Q. What is "compression" and how is it measured? Is it the opposite of leakage?
Vern
David Payne
If I've given the impression that Rick wasn't the guy who started embossing, it was unintentional.
I too would consider Rick Epping to be the father of embossing, with actual customization preceding embossing by many years.
It's a little like the Internet. We've got a good idea where the Internet came from, UCLA, the U.S. government, etc. Rick is to embossing what those folks were to the Internet.
Now if you look back at the Internet, the Internet we know was not necessarily the first attempt at the Internet. Nikola Tesla was working on something we'd recognize as wireless Internet at Wardenclyffe back around 1905 or so - you could listen to stuff on a portable device, send messages back and forth, etc. I've read Tesla's description of what he was working on and he made no allowance for dissemination of pornography, which is probably why his Internet never took off lol - or in the 1930s, Crosley had an unsuccessful attempt with its Reado, it was more limited than Tesla's Internet, you could only download news and weather. The first fax was sent in the 1870s... I should stop now, but what I am trying to express is that I'm looking for the Tesla Internets and the Crosley Reados of harmonica customization. Leo Diamond has an embossed tone. I have heard that tone nowhere else and from nobody else before recent memory.
Now, people have been customizing harmonicas as long as there have been harmonicas, that's something I do say often. Most of the earlier work was done to the reeds or the combs, or slide assemblies, etc. to solve specific problems. The customizing efforts were concentrated wherever the instruments were weakest - and likewise Rick's embossing solution was a response to a specific problem that had arisen, a solution to turn a glaring weakness into a strength.
As a former award-winning investigative journalist, I've been looking into this for years. Over hundreds of conversations probably with many people, all roads lead back to the same place - Rick Epping, I get the impression that the word started getting spread - and was a quite a little buzz that really excited techs - in the Midwest. That was the early 1990s and the WIndy City Harmonica Club was really strong then.
David
David Payne
www.elkriverharmonicas.com
www.hetrickharmonica.com
________________________________
From: Brendan Power <br...@brendan-power.com>
To: 'harp-l' <har...@harp-l.org>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 3:23 PM
Subject: [Harp-L] Rick Epping: the Father of Embossing
Joseph Leone
On Dec 27, 2012, at 5:29 PM, David Payne wrote:
> Brendan,
> If I've given the impression that Rick wasn't the guy who started embossing, it was unintentional.
> I too would consider Rick Epping to be the father of embossing, with actual customization preceding embossing by many years.
> It's a little like the Internet. We've got a good idea where the Internet came from, UCLA, the U.S. government, etc. Rick is to embossing what those folks were to the Internet.
> Now if you look back at the Internet, the Internet we know was not necessarily the first attempt at the Internet. Nikola Tesla was working on something we'd recognize as wireless Internet at Wardenclyffe back around 1905 or so - you could listen to stuff on a portable device, send messages back and forth, etc. I've read Tesla's description of what he was working on and he made no allowance for dissemination of pornography, which is probably why his Internet never took off lol - or in the 1930s, Crosley had an unsuccessful attempt with its Reado, it was more limited than Tesla's Internet, you could only download news and weather. The first fax was sent in the 1870s... I should stop now, but what I am trying to express is that I'm looking for the Tesla Internets and the Crosley Reados of harmonica customization. Leo Diamond has an embossed tone. I have heard that tone nowhere else and from nobody else before recent memory.
> Now, people have been customizing harmonicas as long as there have been harmonicas, that's something I do say often. Most of the earlier work was done to the reeds or the combs, or slide assemblies, etc. to solve specific problems. The customizing efforts were concentrated wherever the instruments were weakest - and likewise Rick's embossing solution was a response to a specific problem that had arisen, a solution to turn a glaring weakness into a strength.
smokey-joe
David Payne
But, I'll pass along a little story about people coming up with the same idea at different times.
Some years ago, I sat down for quite a period of time to make the perfect minor tuning for diatonics. The perfect minor tuning that would require me to tune the fewest reeds. I thought it was a stroke a genius that I could get two octaves of a minor scale by tuning only one reed, the three blow. I tuned it one step up, this gave me a seat for the minor scale and the whole instrument was transformed. I now had my minor scales in fourth position. I had the minor chords, the I minor, the I 7th minor and the four minor.
I was quite proud of this until a sudden realization took the wind from my sails... Brendan Power had already invented this same tuning, although he had tuned that note to get the missing note in that low octave most needed in fiddle tunes. He called it Paddy Richter.
David Payne
www.elkriverharmonicas.com
www.hetrickharmonica.com
________________________________
From: Joseph Leone <3n...@comcast.net>
To: David Payne <da...@elkriverharmonicas.com>
Cc: Harp L Harp L <har...@harp-l.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Rick Epping: the Father of Embossing
Joseph Leone
On Dec 28, 2012, at 4:39 AM, David Payne wrote:
> I've never heard anything that it was being used on accordions before this.
> I've heard of a lot of things being borrowed from accordions, such as steel reeds, but never something aftermarket - only factory things as often the same people making the accordions were making harmonicas.
>
> But, I'll pass along a little story about people coming up with the same idea at different times.
> Some years ago, I sat down for quite a period of time to make the perfect minor tuning for diatonics. The perfect minor tuning that would require me to tune the fewest reeds. I thought it was a stroke a genius that I could get two octaves of a minor scale by tuning only one reed, the three blow. I tuned it one step up, this gave me a seat for the minor scale and the whole instrument was transformed. I now had my minor scales in fourth position. I had the minor chords, the I minor, the I 7th minor and the four minor.
>
> I was quite proud of this until a sudden realization took the wind from my sails... Brendan Power had already invented this same tuning, although he had tuned that note to get the missing note in that low octave most needed in fiddle tunes. He called it Paddy Richter.
smo-joe and his odd ball perspectivs of cavallos of a different hue.
David Payne
Now don't get me wrong either, just because I haven't heard it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Back in the day, many, many companies that made harmonicas also made accordions and vice versa. One innovation that did come from an idea taken from accordions - and this is actually confirmed to be true - was the Seydel steel reed.
David Payne
www.elkriverharmonicas.com
www.hetrickharmonica.com
________________________________
From: Joseph Leone <3n...@comcast.net>
To: David Payne <da...@elkriverharmonicas.com>
Cc: Harp L Harp L <har...@harp-l.org>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 9:46 AM
Joseph Leone
On Dec 28, 2012, at 5:07 PM, David Payne wrote:
> Joe:
> Now don't get me wrong either, just because I haven't heard it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Back in the day, many, many companies that made harmonicas also made accordions and vice versa. One innovation that did come from an idea taken from accordions - and this is actually confirmed to be true - was the Seydel steel reed.
jo-jo
>
> David Payne
> www.elkriverharmonicas.com
> www.hetrickharmonica.com
>
Rick Epping
Vern, in answer to your questions,
Q. What were the clearances in fractions of an inch or mm that the player's
found to be excessive?
positive effects of embossing. But I think most will agree that the closer
the embossing, the more the higher frequencies will be strengthened. There
comes a point when some listeners may find the instrument excessively
bright, so it's a matter of taste.
Q. What is the optimum clearance? Is it different for different reed
lengths?
excessive brightness and improved performance, to be determined by
personal preference. The tightest clearance I might work toward in
producing a harp biased toward performance would be about 0.01mm at the
free end and middle of the reed, reducing to 0.00mm at the rivet end. The
zero clearance at the rivet end can be extended further along the shortest,
high pitched reeds because they are thicker there than the long reeds and
undergo very little movement where they are thick.
Q. What is the best way to measure clearance?
eyeball (with magnifying lenses) the amount of clearance that works best
for them.
A. I studied reeds under the Hohner factory's CNC measuring microscope
during the time we were working on specifications for new reedplate tooling
and got something of a feel for the absolute values involved, but I can't
say that it's all that necessary for good embossing. I was also able to
make rough measurements of clearance by measuring the projection of
reedplates on the microfiche reader I had in my office.
Q. Is it more important in diatonics than in chromatics where valves block
leakage through the opening reed?
of the session harps I play for Irish and Old-Time music are valved octave
harps, and I emboss them all.
Q. What is "compression" and how is it measured? Is it the opposite of
leakage?
But how best to measure it quantitatively? The greater the compression,
the less the breath pressure needed to make the reed play.
"I enjoyed reading the history of Epping's use of embossing to reduce reed
clearance.
However, it is a process and not a result. His article leaves the
quantitative questions unanswered.
Q. What were the clearances in fractions of an inch or mm that the player's
found to be excessive?
Q. What is the optimum clearance? Is it different for different reed
lengths?
Q. What is the best way to measure clearance?
Q. Is it more important in diatonics than in chromatics where valves block
leakage through the opening reed?
Q. What is "compression" and how is it measured? Is it the opposite of
leakage?"
Vern
Hi David,
Have you done any research on the history of reed chamfering? I learned of
it from Sissi Nitsch, who said it was a technique that some old-timers used
to practice. Its effects are similar to those of embossing: improved
response, increased loudness and brighter tone. It's also a much easier
procedure than embossing.
For those unfamiliar with the technique, I've posted photos and description
here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hHeMSL1Pt3MV2U9HWGoPBCYicfukRP6W09CpfVssinU/edit
"Leo Diamond has an embossed tone. I have heard that tone nowhere else and
from nobody else before recent memory.
Now, people have been customizing harmonicas as long as there have been
harmonicas, that's something I do say often. Most of the earlier work was
done to the reeds or the combs, or slide assemblies, etc. to solve specific
problems."
--------------------------------
Hi Joe,
There are a couple of good reasons why it's unlikely that embossing has
been done on accordions. First of all, since the early 1930's accordion
reedplates have been made of duralumin and have a much higher tensile
strength than do harmonica reedplates. I've tried to emboss them and have
found it nearly impossible. The pressure needed to raise any kind of burr
was so great that I feared any slip might damage the reed.
Accordion reedplates would certainly not have been embossed at the factory,
since the technique is so time consuming. Reedplate coining achieves
similar results and can be done rapidly by machine.
It's also unlikely that embossing would have been attempted by professional
players on their accordions as an aftermarket procedure even if it were
possible to work duralumin plates, for the simple reason that the
instruments are just too expensive to mess with. The cheapest accordion in
Hohner's top-of-the-line series is the Gola 414. It's current retail price
is in excess of $49,000.
In 40 years of working on accordions I have never seen one with embossed
reed slots.
"How do we know that embossing wasn't being done on accordions? As you say,
solutions sometimes come from a necessity. Tone a little weak on the D draw
of the pair of reeds in block #10 on bank #3? The chord doesn't sound
'full' on the lower tremelo? Let's emboss it. Makes me wonder.
Po-see-bee-lay? Hmmm, maybe.
smokey-joe"
Rick
Joseph Leone
On Dec 28, 2012, at 12:36 PM, Rick Epping wrote:
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> There are a couple of good reasons why it's unlikely that embossing has
> been done on accordions.
> First of all, since the early 1930's accordion
> reedplates have been made of duralumin and have a much higher tensile
> strength than do harmonica reedplates.
> I've tried to emboss them and have
> found it nearly impossible.
> The pressure needed to raise any kind of burr
> was so great that I feared any slip might damage the reed.
> Accordion reedplates would certainly not have been embossed at the factory,
> since the technique is so time consuming. Reedplate coining achieves
> similar results and can be done rapidly by machine.
>
> It's also unlikely that embossing would have been attempted by professional
> players on their accordions as an aftermarket procedure even if it were
> possible to work duralumin plates, for the simple reason that the
> instruments are just too expensive to mess with. The cheapest accordion in
> Hohner's top-of-the-line series is the Gola 414. It's current retail price
> is in excess of $49,000.
>
> In 40 years of working on accordions I have never seen one with embossed
> reed slots.
smokey-joe, the fishin musician, the doo-wop cop, the Punjab of Java-Pour.
Vern
On Dec 28, 2012, at 9:36 AM, Rick Epping wrote:
> Hi Vern, David, Joe,
>
> Vern, in answer to your questions,
>
> You might have some suggestions here! I guess most embossers just learn to
> eyeball (with magnifying lenses) the amount of clearance that works best
> for them.
I don't emboss my chromatics because they seem to have more than enough high frequencies. I also assume that narrower clearances will make them more sensitive to obstructions. I made some spectrum analyses of about a dozen reeds and found that the 2x overtone was louder than the fundamental and the higher ones were also very strong.
My digital hearing aids make a mess of harmonica tones because their sampling rate is too low for the higher overtones and aliasing occurs. I have had the same problem with digital audio-effects processors.
> A. I studied reeds under the Hohner factory's CNC measuring microscope
> during the time we were working on specifications for new reedplate tooling
> and got something of a feel for the absolute values involved, but I can't
> say that it's all that necessary for good embossing. I was also able to
> make rough measurements of clearance by measuring the projection of
> reedplates on the microfiche reader I had in my office.
> Q. What is "compression" and how is it measured? Is it the opposite of
> leakage?
> A. Correct - compression, as I understand it, is the opposite of leakage.
> But how best to measure it quantitatively? The greater the compression,
> the less the breath pressure needed to make the reed play.
Vern
David Payne
There was a time a few years ago when I was doing experiments with side vents and exactly how they change tone. I was doing numerous experiments, over hours and ours over the course of about a year with the hypothesis that they manipulated sound somehow. Somewhere in this process, I started working for Harrison Harmonicas. I was talking this over with Brad. Now, he would never come right out and say what the answer was and his process of telling you would take like 20 times as long, but he trained you to think and solve the problem yourself. He ask specific questions, such as:
"So... you REALLY think that's how it works, huh?"
or if those questions didn't work... And they didn't work with the side vent mystery, so he said:
"You know what your problem is?"
"No, Brad, I have no clue."
"You're not thinking about air flow."
Then, the light bulbs started going off like falling dominos and it was all clear. What changed the tone was air flow and finally the experiments I was doing were confirming things instead of making it all more confusing.
One I'd figured out the basic concept, he started explaining it in detail and showed me the side-vent concept on the B-radical. You can see the diagram of air flow in the B-rad here, there's a pic of it around the reed, but also a great deal of drawings and writing about it in the B-radical patent, which you will also find on this page.
http://www.elkriverharmonicas.com/harp_school/1890s
I don't know what this did to tone, but I thought it was very interesting at the time there was a weak vortex around the coverplate screw post.
The best way I can explain the side vent thing is a chance in the proportion of air flow from different directions and you can see this in the drawings linked to above. When air comes in straight up from the bottom of the harp, there is a certain tone. When more air is allowed to come in from the side, that first tone still exists, but there is an addition of treble overtones. I can hear them both. With vents open, the treble overtones kind of lay on top of the tone that is already there.
So, I as I experimented with this, and I still do, it seemed really obvious that ANY change in air flow changes the tone.
Now with embossing,
When people emboss, they emboss at an angle. socket, coin, knife, whatever - and there is a specific angle they go for. It's always something that cuts into the slot, that changes the angle of the edge on the outside of the slot. If embossing were only about bettering tolerances, the angle would be nearly irrelevant. Jason Ricci was the first to show me how to emboss. When he showed me, he showed me how to do it with a knife and he had a specific way of doing it, his way the knife was nearly flat against the reedplate. At the time - I don't know if this is still true - Jason wasn't too crazy about adding too much treble overtone and he was played vented harps that already had a lot of treble, so he didn't use the angle everybody else was. I will explain the significance of that... There are other ways of increasing slot tolerances without cutting the reedplate material at an angle (as is done in normal embossing). Those techniques are not mine and I
don't feel comfortable discussing what they are. But they exist and there is a reason they exist - to increase slot tolerance without increasing treble overtone.
On the Optimized Sessions I build for Hetrick, they are embossed in a super-secret-squirrel 4 stage embossing process. First stage is not so secret - at least now it's not - I cut a certain angle with a certain cutting tool I have. Now, put it on a lightbox and you will notice NO change WHATSOEVER in slot tolerance. BUT you WILL notice a distinct EMBOSSED tone.
Rick said this and it is true:
"But I think most will agree that the closerthe embossing, the more the higher frequencies will be strengthened. There
comes a point when some listeners may find the instrument excessively
bright, so it's a matter of taste."
Now if embossing only works like most people assume it does then a good ear should notice a proportional addition of treble overtones between a harmonica with loose slots and another of the same model with tight ones. I've never noticed that, only noticed the tight ones are louder, but the mix of tones is the same.
Rick also said that "all harmonicas" can benefit from embossing, presumeably even one with acceptable slot tolerances.
Why?
Because embossing isn't really about slot tolerances. I know that was the reason behind its modern development. Rick did it to increase that tolerance and it did. But that's only 10 percent of how it works. Embossing with a coin or with a cutting tool alters the slot, it makes what was a 90 degree angle on the outside of the slot a particular slope. This slope does two things:
1) From the reed's perspective, it lowers the reedslot.
2) It dramatically alters the air flow to the reed.
Simply put, instead of coming straight down, after embossing, the air not only comes in straight down as it did before, it comes in from the side. Like with air flow with the side vents, any change in air flow changes tone. That's a very simple way of putting it, but that's how it works. Now, if that slope is rough and burry, the air flow is different from when the slot is clean and so is the tone. More raspy is the best way I can describe it.
On compression:
Compression has a lot to do with gapping and vice versa. It's like trying to continually blow into a balloon with a hole in it. A high-compression harp is like a balloon with a small hole, a low-compression one would have a large hole. There's a point in gapping where the reed will choke or not respond to soft playing on the other extreme, but beyond that it's a matter of compression. Compression is the amount of backpressure that's in the comb cell when you blow or negative pressure in there when you draw (although science wouldn't call that compression probably).
To me, a too-tight gap is like a restrictor plate the intake of a race car. That's what it feels like to me as it restricts my control. To others, that same compression is desired. They want that restriction, they want that restrictor plate to conserve air.
David Payne
www.elkriverharmonicas.com
www.hetrickharmonica.com
Vern
> "....... it seemed really obvious that ANY change in air flow changes the tone....."
It is not at all obvious to me. Your explanation doesn't fit with my understanding of harmonica aerodynamics and acoustics. You will find the following statement to be controversial. It is followed by a justification. I claim that when you discount your intuition and look at the problem quantitatively, a different picture emerges.
I posit that: "The flow of breath through the reed chamber and under the cover of a harmonica has no perceptible effect on the sound."
These are the reasons:
The velocity of sound is about 1125 feet/second.
The cross sectional area of a 0.18 inch high x .18 inch wide diatonic reed chamber is about 0.032 square inches or .00023 square feet.
The cross sectional area under the 0.16 inch high x 1 inch deep covers is 0.16 square inches or .0011 square feet.
A player expels about 1 liter (0.035 cubic feet) of air in 8 seconds, a volume flow of about .0044 cubic feet per second.
The velocity of breath through a reed chamber is about .0044 / .00023 = about 19 feet /second.
The velocity of air under the cover is about .0044 / .0011 or 4 feet per second. IF the player does not hand-cup to completely block flow out the rear, then the velocity is even lower.
4 ft/sec x 3600 sec/hr / 5280 ft/mile = 2.7 mph
Because the breath under the covers is moving at less than 1% ( 0.36 % ) of the speed of sound, there is little interaction. The behavior of sound waves in slowly moving air isn't very different from their behavior in still air.
Think of holding a conversation in a gentle 2.7 mph breeze.
Vern
daij...@gmail.com
Rob
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
-----Original Message-----
From: Vern <jev...@fea.net>
Sender: harp-l-...@harp-l.org
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 16:01:48
To: David Payne<da...@elkriverharmonicas.com>
Cc: Harp L Harp L<har...@harp-l.org>
Vern
Up to the point where the reed chokes at about 15 inches of water pressure, more pressure produces louder sound. However, this isn't a linear relationship because a given increase in pressure produces smaller increases in loudness as the pressure gets higher. I once made some measurements using a water manometer to measure pressure and a sound meter to measure decibels of loudness.
Vern
David Payne
How does that go with the pressure and volume? Is that relationship the same as with added sound... say when two reeds play at the same time, the sound is not twice as loud?
Does the amplitude of the reed travel have a linear relationship with the amplitude of sound?
David Payne
www.elkriverharmonicas.com
www.hetrickharmonica.com
________________________________
From: Vern <jev...@fea.net>
To: daij...@gmail.com
Cc: har...@harp-l.org
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:38 PM
Vern
> 15 inches of water pressure? Vern, have you ever graphed that choking pressure for different gap sizes?
> How does that go with the pressure and volume?
> Is that relationship the same as with added sound... say when two reeds play at the same time, the sound is not twice as loud?
David Payne
When airflow from the side is restricted there is a drop in treble overtone. It's there. I can hear the change. When altering this, I can hear a certain tone, then an addition of another tone and I can hear both those tones at the same time. To me, it's like if somebody saw a cat. He would say, "there is a cat." Then, a dog walked up next to this cat. Then, he would say "there is a dog next to this cat." To me, perception of those tones is no different than seeing dogs and cats.
This airflow concept is not new. Of course, Brad explored it to great length with the B-radical, but it is way older. Richard Seydel Sr. was apparently the first to understand it and explore it in the 1890s.
Most of the sound of a harmonica comes from this chopped column of air from the reed.
Think of that as the cat. It's the base tone... the things I'm delving into are other tones that are additions to that base tone - the dog.
Now, I will make some far more controversial statements myself that what Vern said and they will get more controversial as you read on. This isn't stuff I just thought up one day, it's from constant thinking and testing for years at the Elk River Institute for Advanced Harmonica Studies, I know it'll get picked to death, but this is stuff I've confirmed with repeatable tests. I seriously think about this stuff all day. It's very controversial and is dismissed by almost anybody - at least from what I've seen written - that is an authority on harmonicas. Ironically, it is the absolute easiest dynamic to confirm with a simple test.
"The coverplate acts as a sounding board and works in a similar, although less significant way, as the top of a guitar."
That's another old concept. The man who came up with that was Jacob Hohner and he designed a harmonica to take advantage of this dynamic - the mouse ear Marine Band.
It's really simple to test. Grab a diatonic harmonica, hold it with a thumb on one end and a finger on the other end. Do not touch the coverplate in anyway. Blow any note (tonal changes seem to be easier to hear on blow notes). Then, take a finger and press it upon the top coverplate. Then release the finger. There is one tone that diminishes when you touch the coverplate and another that remains constant. When the finger is pressed upon the coverplate, there is a certain tone. That's the cat. Then, when the finger is released, there is a treble part of that tone that is increased. That's the dog.
For those who do not think coverplates vibrate, blow a note (lower the better) and touch the top coverplate lightly against a tooth. You'll feel it. Now, blow that note and lightly touch the BOTTOM coverplate against another tooth. You don't need a tooth, you can feel it with a lightly-applied finger, but the tooth rattle is really obvious. It also vibrates. Again, when stuff vibrates, sound comes from it.
Now, that largest surface of that bottom coverplate is, on the diatonic I just checked ( a Optimized session Steel), about 1.3 cm from the vibrating reed. Even the top coverplate is about 8 cm from the vibrating reed.
Sound has to travel through a medium, be it solid, liquid or gas.
Now sound waves traveling through air seem pretty weak to make all this coverplate vibration happen. That seems to be the case. This can be tested. Blow the same note with another harmonica 1.3 cm away (basically just get them as close as you can without touching). There is no perceptible vibration in the second harmonica's coverplate. Or, you could just lay a coverplate by itself down, whatever you want, there is no perceptible vibration. I have never found anything acoustically resonant whatsoever about a harmonica.
So, the vibration in the coverplate doesn't come from the sound waves in the air. It travels through solid material to get to the coverplates.
Sound travels differently through different solids. Go to your kitchen table and put your ear on it and rap your knuckles at arm's length, or better yet a ringing cell phone set to vibrate. Try the same with the countertop. Or the floor. A board. Whatever flat, solid surface you can find. The sounds, to your pressed ear sound different based on the material and construction of that flat surface.
So, again, most of the sound from the reed doesn't get to the coverplates, it is traveling through a solid material to get there.
What solid materials are there for it to travel through? Well, there's the reedplates and .... drum roll, please.... the COMB.
By my theory here, metal combs would provide the best means of sound transmission. I - and there are people, some on this list, who can confirm - I can pick out a metal comb from another type on otherwise identical harmonicas even on the phone nearly 100 percent of the time. With wood vs. recessed reedplate plastic - I can pick out about 75 - 80 percent of the time. I think I could do better if I actually were to train myself. What I hear is an addition of treble tone with the wood, but it is very slight. Vern says people can't hear it. I think he's probably 95 percent right. But a difference exists and some people can hear it. There are ears far better than mine.
With plastic vs. wood combs of the same construction - and the 1847 and 1847 Silver are the only ones I know of that are like this - I can tell hear no difference whatsoever. None. zilch, nada.
But with metal vs. anything, it's a different story. There is a particular tone that is there with metal. I can only describe it as when a bell is rung, at almost the point where you can no longer hear it, but you can still kind of sense the vibration. I think that different vibration can also be felt. I'd like to know if that's true, or if I imagine it. I would like to test that sometime. I would need somebody to play a couple of harmonicas, one with a brass comb and one without while I've got earplugs in and see if I could tell a difference. That would be fun and I'd be interested to know how it turns out.
I am well aware this will get picked to death and I only ask that folks try some of these tests. Either each and every harmonica sounds exactly the same or they do not. It's one or the other and if they do not, I'm open testing out alternative suggestions. I might have tested them out already. Or maybe not. I've tested about everything I can think of on that subject... but there is a lot of stuff I've yet to explore, like what would a harmonica sound like if you blew helium into it and stuff. Haven't tried that yet.
David Payne
www.elkriverharmonicas.com
www.hetrickharmonica.com
________________________________
From: Vern <jev...@fea.net>
To: David Payne <da...@elkriverharmonicas.com>
Cc: Harp L Harp L <har...@harp-l.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Embossing and Compression (was Rick Epping, father of embossing)
lonesomeda...@gmail.com
Sent from my BlackBerry� wireless device from WIND
-----Original Message-----
From: David Payne <da...@elkriverharmonicas.com>
Sender: harp-l-...@harp-l.org
To: Harp L Harp L<har...@harp-l.org>
Reply-To: David Payne <da...@elkriverharmonicas.com>
Subject: [Harp-L] was Embossing, now controversy
I would oppositely posit, as I'm sure you understand. Personally, I never found a need to try to deduce it with math, nor do I have the booklearnin' for it, I was an english and history major, you know. Although, I've got a good ear.�I've never thought of it as an interaction of sound in moving air... in fact, that idea makes as little sense to me as it does to you. I believe it's about the reed and how it vibrates. What, I don't know, but the tonal change is from the reed itself. It is the reed itself and how air gets to it that is key.�When airflow from the side is restricted there is a drop in treble overtone. It's there. I can hear the change. When altering this, I can hear a certain tone, then an addition of another tone and I can hear both those tones at the same time. To me, it's like if somebody saw a cat. He would say, "there is a cat." Then, a dog walked up next to this cat. Then, he would say "there is a dog next to this cat." To me, perception of those tones is n!
o different than seeing dogs and cats.�This airflow concept is not new. Of course, Brad explored it to great length with the B-radical, but it is way older. Richard Seydel Sr. was apparently the first to understand it and explore it in the 1890s.�Most of the sound of a harmonica comes from this chopped column of air from the reed.�Think of that as the cat. It's the base tone... the things I'm delving into are other tones that are additions to that base tone - the dog.��Now, I will make some far more controversial statements myself that what Vern said and they will get more controversial as you read on. This isn't stuff I just thought up one day, it's from constant thinking and testing for years at the Elk River Institute for Advanced Harmonica Studies, I know it'll get picked to death, but this is stuff I've confirmed with repeatable tests. I seriously think about this stuff all day. It's very controversial and is dismissed by almost anybody - at least from what I've seen w!
ate, blow a note (lower the better) and touch the top coverplate lightly against a tooth. You'll feel it. � Now, blow that note and lightly touch the BOTTOM coverplate against another tooth. �You don't need a tooth, you can feel it with a lightly-applied finger, but the tooth rattle is really obvious. It also vibrates. Again, when stuff vibrates, sound comes from it.Now, that largest surface of that bottom coverplate is, on the diatonic I just checked ( a Optimized session Steel), about 1.3 cm from the vibrating reed. Even the top coverplate is about 8 cm from the vibrating reed.�Sound has to travel through a medium, be it solid, liquid or gas.Now sound waves traveling through air seem pretty weak to make all this coverplate vibration happen. That seems to be the case. This can be tested. Blow the same note with another harmonica 1.3 cm away (basically just get them as close as you can without touching). There is no perceptible vibration in the second harmonica's coverplate!
smission. I - and there are people, some on this list, who can confirm - I can pick out a metal comb �from another type on otherwise identical harmonicas even on the phone nearly 100 percent of the time. With wood vs. recessed reedplate plastic - I can pick out about 75 - 80 percent of the time. I think I could do better if I actually were to train myself. What I hear is an addition of treble tone with the wood, but it is very slight. Vern says people can't hear it. I think he's probably 95 percent right. But a difference exists and some people can hear it. There are ears far better than mine.�With plastic vs. wood combs of the same construction - and the 1847 and 1847 Silver are the only ones I know of that are like this - I can tell hear no difference whatsoever. �None. zilch, nada.�But with metal vs. anything, it's a different story. There is a particular tone that is there with metal. I can only describe it as when a bell is rung, at almost the point where you can no lo!
I am well aware this will get picked to death and I only ask that folks try some of these tests. Either each and every harmonica sounds exactly the same or they do not. It's one or the other and if they do not, I'm open testing out alternative suggestions. I might have tested them out already. Or maybe not. I've tested about everything I can think of on that subject... but there is a lot of stuff I've yet to explore, like what would a harmonica sound like if you blew helium into it and stuff. Haven't tried that yet. �
David Payne
www.elkriverharmonicas.comwww.hetrickharmonica.com
________________________________ From: Vern <jev...@fea.net>To: David Payne <da...@elkriverharmonicas.com> Cc: Harp L Harp L <har...@harp-l.org> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 7:01 PMSubject: Re: [Harp-L] Embossing and Compression (was Rick Epping, father of embossing) On Dec 28, 2012, at 8:54 PM, David Payne wrote:>� "....... it seemed really obvious that ANY change in air flow changes the tone....."
It is not at all obvious to me. Your explanation doesn't fit with my understanding of harmonica aerodynamics and acoustics. You will find the following statement to be controversial.� It is followed by a justification. I claim that when you discount your intuition and look at the problem quantitatively, a different picture emerges.
These are the reasons:
Because the breath under the covers is moving at less than 1% ( 0.36 % ) of the speed of sound, there is little interaction.� The behavior of sound waves in slowly moving� air isn't very different from their behavior in still air.
Think of holding a conversation in a gentle 2.7 mph breeze.�
Vern
David Payne
On the pictures, the high magnification picture was a prewar reed, which was really cool, but it would have been more useful had there been a modern Hohner reed under the same magnification. The reason that was incomplete as it was was because it was never really finished. It was about the time he did that that he started a harmonica company.
You said:"I posit that masking prevents you from hearing the weak barking of the dog while the very much more powerful cat is howling."
Just to be clear, the "cat" is the base tone. The "dog" is added treble overtones. The reason I used a cat and dog in my analogy was because when see things, it's simple. When you say "I see a dog," nobody says "you cannot see a dog there" or "you are imagining that a dog is there." To me, sounds are as definite to me as visions, maybe even more so, because I trust my ears more than my eyes. I know how these things are represented to my ear. If the cat were howling, I could still hear a quiet dog, it would sound like a quiet dog and a loud cat. they are two different sounds. As you know, when you play a C4 on a harmonica, a C4 is not all you get. There are all these overtones that are different pitches. The combination of these overtones is what makes a fiddle sound like a fiddle and a harmonica like a harmonica. What I am talking about are differences in these combinations.
On your test of plucking the reed for the SPAH audience, I've got a couple of thoughts.
1) After watching one SPAH test, and hearing the about results of your SPAH tests, I have no confidence whatsoever in the collective ears in the SPAH audience.
2) I'm not sure I could tell you how many times you plucked the reed, either. I would be interested to try this.
But this wouldn't be having a dog walk up to a cat, plinking a reed of the same pitch would be the same harmonics, I think, like having two cats meow at the same time. There is a pocket of sound that I believe that reed plink would fit into. That's just conjecture on my part, but I don't think I could do it. This is a very interesting thing to think about. When you plink that reed, you are sounding it of course. It is possible that the only difference would be the interuption of the second (non-played) reed's vibration when you put the tool on it to plink it, because that second reed - if tuned the same - is already vibrating (another sign of vibration carried internally that I didn't mention in the previous post). You can hear it on a chromatic. If you put a finger on that second reed (the 5 blow on a chromatic while you play the 4), there is a change in the sound, provided they are in tune with one another. It's very slight, but there is a
diminishing of richness in that sound. Of course, you could just put your finger on the non-played reed and feel it vibrating.
Thanks for taking the time to try the touching the coverplate test. I appreciate that. You said that you noticed a change intially, but then nothing, which tells me a great deal about where you're coming from in your posits. You noticed a slight change in tone, then nothing. That's not what I hear and it's not what I notice. When I do this, I'm not sitting here thinking "do I notice a tone change there?... well maybe... yes, now I'm sure. There is a difference" It's not like that at all. It's very clear and a very specific thing that I hear. It's an addition of a very specific tone on top of the one that is already there and it's as clear as seeing a cat or a dog.
One thing that you have proven without a doubt to me is that large numbers of subjects in a blind test can't hear a damn thing. It's pretty easy to predict how that would turn out. If I were doing such a test, I would pick two ears, mine and Wally Peterman's. Most people don't know this, but the Lee Majors' show "Six Million Dollar Man" was roughly based on Wally's life.. only in real life, they ran out of money after giving Wally bionic cyborg ears. Seriously, his ears are far better than mine.
Vern, you have long since contended that various things have no affect on tone and nobody can hear it, while I've been saying the difference is very slight and some people can hear it and most cannot. One thing I would be very interested in you to posit... you've contended that coverplates have no affect on tone. Combs have no affect on tone. Air flow has no affect on tone (what am I missing?).
Then what actually does have an effect on tone?
If it is only the player, then do all harmonicas have the precise same tone when played by the same person?
If it is only the player and the reed if I put a Seydel Steel reed into a Marine Band, will it have the exact same tone as an Seydel 1847? Are there even any differences in tone between the two models?
Do you believe that all ears hear the same or are there similar differences as with vision?
Do you believe that sound amplified through hearing aids is a true representation of sound, or could parts be missing?
I'm asking these because I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on these things.
David Payne
www.elkriverharmonicas.com
www.hetrickharmonica.com