[Harp-L] Augmented Spanish Tuning : still anyone else playing?

[Buzap Buzap]

Hi folks

a few years back, the "Augmented Spanish Tuning" on the short harp became popular with Eric Chafer from France (http://www.planetharmonica.com/EricChafer.htm). Some people tried it out. But now, what I hear is that even Eric Chafer is not playing harmonica much anymore (plays tuba instead).

I really love the tuning and it is pretty much the only tuning I use for short harp. So, I was wondering, are there any other people out there who still play it regularly or occasionally?

Would love to get in touch and exchange!

Buzap
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[a...@acbluesband.com]

I play augmented and diminished tuning regularly - but mostly diminished. Both tunings are based on the same logic with the augmented tuning having two half bends between blow and draw notes and the diminished tuning having a single half bend between blow and draw notes. I love the range on the augmented tuning but I love the way chromatic steps are separated on the diminished so I'm torn between the two tunings :).

I also half valve both the augmented and the diminished - I think they are the perfect harps for that setup.

I'd love to exchange ideas and so forth on any of these tunings...

A.C.

[Buzap Buzap]

Hi AC

great :)

Just a question: are we talking about 10-hole short harp ("blues harp")?

I do play Dimi on chrom. I was primarily concerned with Augmented "Spanish" tunining on 10-hole Blues harp.

best regards

[a...@acbluesband.com]

Yes, I'm talking diatonic.

I have been making my augmented tuning harps, mostly from special 20s, but I just bought a Seydel 1847 in augmented (I use LowE harps for augmented). It has been a great harp so far...

For the diminished I just retuned a Marine Band Solo tuned harp (the 12 hole diatonic - so it's not that short :) and it turned out great. Because the octave repeats every 5 hole on the solo tuned it works great for diminished tuning which also repeats the octave at every 5 hole.

-----Original Message-----
From: Buzap Buzap [mailto:bu...@gmx.net]

[Clayton Gary Lehmann]

Just took a look at this puppy--
Draw bend city!
Doubt if it is much use to me, but sure looks interesting . . .
Any audio samples of a person playing with this tuning?
Gary

[Björn Sigurdsson]

Hello,

I still mostly play standard Richter layout, and I have only been
playing harmonica 9 months. However, I soon realized that in the long
run I want to focus on one of the tunings with a repetitive pattern
and I made myself an augmented short harp of a golden melody and an
diminished of a special 20. I also bought two diminished seydels.The
major reason I focused on diminished was that I only had to controll
one-step bends and thanks to this be to better train my ear, but I
don't like the spread out layout. So I tend to play more and more
augmented. I also gonna make myself a valved Whole tone and maybe some
other harps on the same theme.

I would love to hear some recordings with this kind of layouts of more
simple and familiar songs. Ludos recordings and Chafers or Hirchs
recordings sound okay to good when I listen to them, but I can't
really compare it or differ the player from the instrument/layout
because I don't know their songs. So personally I try to record myself
playing the same simple songs that I am well familiar with and can
play with ease unbent on Richter diatonic, you know, the songs that
everyone know (like Ode to Joy or Greensleeves and scales) in
different positions.
I'm not skilled enough yet to post my own exercises but if someone
have something like this recorded and would love to listen to them.

This reminds me of something... I saw that Winslow and Hunter did Ode
to Joy challenge a few years ago. However I was not able to listen to
recordings posted to them (search the Internet and you will find some
information about this), I ran in to it when I was searching
information about Ode to Joy with harmonica because I basically had
the same idea - that it would be a good piece to try something like
this on. So if the recordings still exist I would love to listen to
them. (Btw. I was pleased to find out that two harmonica players light
years ahead of me picked the same song for the this purpose - even if
they played it in second position on a richter short harp.)

So Yes, Buzap, I want to get in touch and talk about augmented spanish tunings.

//Björn Sigurdsson
Sweden

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Buzap Buzap <bu...@gmx.net>

--
Må Väl / Kind Regards

Björn Sigurdsson
Kompanigatan 20
58758 Linköping
+46 706 897257

[Buzap Buzap]

Hi Björn, AC

I'm thrilled to hear that "I'm not alone" :-)

I have tried different MOLT tunings (modes of limited transposition).
I've settled on C-Diminished on Chromatic and LowE/Ab-Augmented on "diatonic".
I have also other tunings but don't really play them much.
This Wholetone tuning could be really interesting for classic, sort of like pan flute:
Blow: C, D, E, F#, G#, A#, C...
Draw: C#, D#, F, G, A, B, C#...
You get a decent 1,5 octaves on a 10-hole harp ;-))

Usually, I play classic/jazz/latin stuff on dimi chrom and blues/blues-jazz/oriental stuff on augmented "diatonic".

Harp recording wise, I don't have much on the internet. Esp. if you are looking for a "normal" tune. The closest might be my current band project "Orange Collective":
- Listen: http://myspace.com/ocollective
- Info & mp3: http://orangecollective.de
The song "Right On" I'm singing features a harp solo. It's played in Bb ("half-tone bend"-Position) on a LowE-Augmented "diatonic". I would say it just sounds like a "normal" blues solo.

I can understand that people might find Dimi diatonic easier. And yes, 12-hole is nice for full 3 octaves.
On the Augmented short harp, hitting the half-tone/whole-tone bends right requires practice. And then, it still sounds somewhat dirty (Winslow's "Ode Challenge" revisited ;-).
Have you guys compared it with the layout Ludo has used?:
Blow: E, G#, C, E...
Draw: F#, A#, D, F#...
I wonder if it is easier to play with the Overblows?

Anyway, I'll be happy to keep in touch & exchange with you guys :))

best regards

Buzap

PS: Gary, just check the Eric Chafer page for sound examples (http://www.planetharmonica.com/EricChafer.htm) - and yes, it is draw bend city all the way! :-)

[Björn Sigurdsson]

I know nothing of pan flute, but for clarity. With whole tone tuning I
mean what you say Ludo uses:
BLOW: C, E, G#4 and so on....
DRAW: D, F#4, A#4 and so on

and then half valve it so you can bend down blow-notes (I assume Ludo
overblowed it instead according to your text). Or maybe (if you prefer
to have valved draw bend rather than valved blow bend) you reverse it.
I guess that a lot of players playing around with tunings like this,
since you can buy them of seydel with ease. If you buy your self a
rotary grinder you can very fast and easy and with okay results tune
down reeds on less expensive harmonicas many semitones to play around
with and get a feeling for the layout before you invest in time or
money in a proper set up.

again I want to ask if I somewhere can access the sound files to that
old Ode to Joy challenge?

Time to go of list with this topic perhaps...
Regards
Björn

--

Må Väl / Kind Regards

Björn Sigurdsson
Kompanigatan 20
58758 Linköping
+46 706 897257

_______________________________________________

[Richard Hunter]

Bjorn Sigurdsson wrote:
<This reminds me of something... I saw that Winslow and Hunter did Ode
<to Joy challenge a few years ago. However I was not able to listen to
<recordings posted to them (search the Internet and you will find some
<information about this), I ran in to it when I was searching
<information about Ode to Joy with harmonica because I basically had
<the same idea - that it would be a good piece to try something like
<this on. So if the recordings still exist I would love to listen to
<them. (Btw. I was pleased to find out that two harmonica players light
<years ahead of me picked the same song for the this purpose - even if
<they played it in second position on a richter short harp.)

Hi Bjorn,

The whole purpose of the Ode to Joy Challenge was to provide a test of whether a "difficult" bent note like the draw 3 double bend (B down to A on a C harp) could be played in an exposed setting without disrupting the flow of the musical line with poor intonation, noticeably different tone, etc.

In general, nobody who entered the challenge was able to make that bend perfectly transparent in terms of tone and pitch.

In other words, there are limits to what can be done with bending technique. Or at least there were at the time. It would be interesting to re-run the challenge and see whether something has changed.

Regards, Richard Hunter
latest mp3s and harmonica blog at http://myspace.com/richardhunterharp

[Clayton Gary Lehmann]

I bet Howard Levy can win this challenge.
I just got a feeling . . .
Gary

[Buzap Buzap]

Hi Richard

> The whole purpose of the Ode to Joy Challenge was to provide a test of
> whether a "difficult" bent note like the draw 3 double bend (B down to A on a
> C harp) could be played in an exposed setting without disrupting the flow

When playing a tuning like Augmented on "Diatonic", 50% of the notes are wholetone/halftone bends. That means it's "Ode Challenge" on 10 holes all the time ;-)

I'm aware there is a limit how clean the bent notes can sound. In my experience, I find it easier to adapt the tone of the "clean" notes to the bent instead (embochure) than vice versa.
Also, it seems to me that harps like GM /580 generally provide cleaner bent notes than MB/SP20 (could be subjective though).

I'd love to listen to the tracks again (Winslow's links don't work anymore) and see how I do in comparison :)

best regards
Buzap
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[Buzap Buzap]

> Time to go of list with this topic perhaps...

OK, we'll start our Dimi/Augmented training camp ;-)

Buzap
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[John Kerkhoven]

> The whole purpose of the Ode to Joy Challenge was to provide a test of
> whether a "difficult" bent note like the draw 3 double bend (B down to A
on a
> C harp) could be played in an exposed setting without disrupting the flow

Sure it can be done. Listen to Charlie Musselwhite's Azul Para Amparo from
his "The Harmonica According to CM".

Cheers,

John

[Winslow Yerxa]

The purpose of the ode Challenge was to determine whether the bent note would stick out as different, not whether it would disrupt the flow. it was not whether it could be played "without disrupting the flow."

For instance, In Azul Para Amparo you can still hear that the bent note sounds different from the unbent notes. But in the context created by the player, you accept it. Despite sounding different it doesn't "disrupt the flow."

However, in a tune such as Ode to Joy, you expect the notes to all have the same tonal qualities and to articulate the same way.

This takes away the "special" conditions of expectation or acceptance created by a harmonica tune or a harmonica arrangement, where the listener expects bent notes to sound different, and may expect other behaviors associated with the harmonica - bending into notes, wailing, etc.

By taking away instrument-specific expectations, you have a more neutral and objective basis for judging whether a particular player can make the bent note indistinguishable as such.

By the way, the original links were hosted on a long-defunct Chris Michalek server because all the harp players accessing the mp3 files were overloading the servers of the original host (either yahoo or Anglefire, I forget which one). I still have all the sound files if anyone is interesting in hosting them.

Winslow

Winslow Yerxa

Author, Harmonica For Dummies ISBN 978-0-470-33729-5

--- On Thu, 3/19/09, John Kerkhoven <solo_d...@ca.inter.net> wrote:
From: John Kerkhoven <solo_d...@ca.inter.net>
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Ode Challenge Revisited (was Augmented)
To: har...@harp-l.org
Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 11:09 AM

[Icem...@aol.com]

Check out Charley McCoy - he does it all the time


In a message dated 3/19/2009 1:09:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
solo_d...@ca.inter.net writes:

test of
> whether a "difficult" bent note like the draw 3 double bend (B down to A
on a
> C harp) could be played in an exposed setting without disrupting the flow

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[Joe and Cass Leone]

When doing T.D.'s (tommy dorsey's), or Pinetop Boogies, I use all 3
of those bends. Piece of cake.
sMO-Jo

[Rick Dempster]

This supposed to be about consistency of tone isn't it? Surely, to use one example, the 'side' keys on a sax produce a different tone to the 'front' (? sorry I don't know the correct terminology) keys. Is this not a feature of any wind instrument? Why do I think Winslow is going to answer this.......? or Joe... or.......
RD

>>> Joe and Cass Leone <le...@ewol.com> 20/03/2009 15:22 >>>

[Joe and Cass Leone]

When you speak of the 'side' keys on a sax, I take it you are
referring to the 'duplication note keys'? (For those who don't know,
between the upper end of the lower case notes and the lower end of
the upper case notes, you have to use the octave shift bar. In that
area several notes are duplicated and you can hit them in either
case. Conclusion...yes, they DO sound a little different, but an
experienced player can smooth this over with their embochure.

Harmonica content? Well, same goes for harp. Picking tunes that
specifically target the bends in holes 1,2,3 will (hopefully) get you
proficient in holes 1,2,3. No mystery there. S'like anything else we
do. Handwriting, speaking, riding a bike.

sMO-jo

[Joe and Cass Leone]

>
> On Mar 20, 2009, at 12:29 AM, Rick Dempster wrote:
>
>> This supposed to be about consistency of tone isn't it? Surely, to
>> use one example, the 'side' keys on a sax produce a different tone
>> to the 'front' (? sorry I don't know the correct terminology)
>> keys. Is this not a feature of any wind instrument? Why do I think
>> Winslow is going to answer this.......? or Joe... or.......
>> RD
>>

Often going unnoticed is timing. As far as harmonicas go, when
attempting bends, some people will adjust the timing when approaching
a difficult bend. Like, they will change the structure and the rests
so that the difficult note is almost a 'passing' note.

Example: Rocky Top is played at a brisk enough speed to where the
couple tricky parts can be slurred over enough, and emphasis can be
placed on OTHER (easier) notes, to where the passing notes, even if
not expertly hit, are close enough to satisfy most ears.

Hard to do on a ballad. Example: Crazy. There are a couple tricky
parts where the bends are hard to get into the mixture in a seamless
fashion. Sooo some players will change the structure to gloss over
the tricky notes. For instance, instead of:

1/4 note, 1/4 note, rest 1/4 note, 1/4 note, 1/4 note, 1/4 note, 1/4
note, 1/8-1/8 (barred), 1/4 note....they will play
1/4 note, 1/4 note, rest dotted 1/4 note, 1/8-1/8-1/8 barred, 1/4
note, rest, 1/4 note, 1/8-1/8 barred.

This way, the couple tricky 1/4 notes are converted into 'passing'
1/8 notes, and it is 'snowjoberalled' into a more seamless run.

What I have always done was to take a tune and envision the singer
(or instrumentalist) who did this tune the BEST. By best, I mean the
person whom was most successful with the tune. In other words, THEY
made the tune popular OR did it better than anyone else. Why? Well,
think about it. IF it were the most popular version, that must mean
that it appealed to more people than previous versions.

Ergo: If it WAS more popular, that means more people liked it, Thus
you will have a better chance of success with it as it is already
shown (maybe not proven) to be a success.

LeOne

[Rick Dempster]

That's it exactly, Joe.
RD

>>> Joe and Cass Leone <le...@ewol.com> 03/20/09 3:50 PM >>>

When you speak of the 'side' keys on a sax, I take it you are
referring to the 'duplication note keys'? (For those who don't know,
between the upper end of the lower case notes and the lower end of
the upper case notes, you have to use the octave shift bar. In that
area several notes are duplicated and you can hit them in either
case. Conclusion...yes, they DO sound a little different, but an
experienced player can smooth this over with their embochure.

Harmonica content? Well, same goes for harp. Picking tunes that
specifically target the bends in holes 1,2,3 will (hopefully) get you
proficient in holes 1,2,3. No mystery there. S'like anything else we
do. Handwriting, speaking, riding a bike.

sMO-jo

On Mar 20, 2009, at 12:29 AM, Rick Dempster wrote:

> This supposed to be about consistency of tone isn't it? Surely, to
> use one example, the 'side' keys on a sax produce a different tone
> to the 'front' (? sorry I don't know the correct terminology) keys.
> Is this not a feature of any wind instrument? Why do I think
> Winslow is going to answer this.......? or Joe... or.......
> RD
>

>>>> Joe and Cass Leone <le...@ewol.com> 20/03/2009 15:22 >>>
> When doing T.D.'s (tommy dorsey's), or Pinetop Boogies, I use all 3
> of those bends. Piece of cake.
> sMO-Jo
>
>
>
> On Mar 19, 2009, at 11:24 PM, Icem...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Check out Charley McCoy - he does it all the time
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 3/19/2009 1:09:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>> solo_d...@ca.inter.net writes:
>>
>> test of
>>> whether a "difficult" bent note like the draw 3 double bend (B
>>> down to A
>> on a
>>> C harp) could be played in an exposed setting without disrupting
>>> the flow
>>
>> **************Great Deals on Dell 15" Laptops - Starting at $479
>> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220029050x1201385914/aol?
>> redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doub
>> leclick.net%2Fclk%3B212974460%3B34272906%3Bh)

[Richard Hunter]

Joe and Cass Leone wrote:
<When doing T.D.'s (tommy dorsey's), or Pinetop Boogies, I use all 3
<of those bends. Piece of cake.

Okay, can you please post a simple recording somewhere so the rest of us
can hear how indistinguishable the bent note is from every other note in
the line?

All of us use those bends all the time. The question is whether you can
make the tone, timbre and pitch of that bent note absolutely consistent
with what's going on around it. No one in the first ode to Joy
Challenge could do it, and the participants included some pretty heavy
hitters.

My guess is that it just can't be done, because you MUST change the
shape of your resonant chamber--mouth, throat, etc.--to hit the bend,
and that MUST change the sound of the note in some way.

I'll be frank: I can't do it, and I work on it frequently. I can of
course make the bends work in a musical context for most of what I do,
but I wouldn't play the Ode to Joy in second position in the bottom
octave of a standard Richter in front of a concert audience.

The best any artist can do is make the change in timbre work musically,
which of course is what we all do. But that's not the same thing.

Like I said: if you think otherwise, show us a recording. That's the
challenge.

Regards, Richard Hunter
latest mp3s and harmonica blog at http://myspace.com/richardhunterharp

[Björn Sigurdsson]

Well... and even if the bent note not is indistinguishable... will it
destroy Ode to joy or will it ad something fresh and interesting but
not "bad"? My very humble opinion for the moment is that to play it in
second pos is very hard, and that it is easier to play it with augm.
or dimi. I don't want to play this piece with perfect pitch and
identical timbre - I want to loosen it up a bit, however without
destroying it. I guess in analog to play a guitar fret less. I find
that when I play this in second pos on a richter I destroy more than I
add. With diminished the bends the timbre changes less and it sounds
okay... but still do I really add something more than that I have a
fun time? However with augm., a tuning that I without a doubt play a
lot out of tune with, I still think I add something at least when I
have my best motifs... Why? I think Buzap is right. As a listener you
really don't know if the bent or unbent notes is the norm., and maybe
you can modify the unbent note to be more like bent while playing. I
think Chaffers recordings are phenomenal and I assume that this is why
it works so well: because the bent notes is the norm. But still I
don't know if he or anyone else could play Ode to Joy and add
something without destroying more with augm.

(And yes, Of course this is a matter of your own taste.)
Regards Björn

--

Må Väl / Kind Regards

Björn Sigurdsson
Kompanigatan 20
58758 Linköping
+46 706 897257

_______________________________________________

[Joe and Cass Leone]

On Mar 20, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Richard Hunter wrote:

> Joe and Cass Leone wrote:
> <When doing T.D.'s (tommy dorsey's), or Pinetop Boogies, I use all 3
> <of those bends. Piece of cake.
>
>
> Okay, can you please post a simple recording somewhere so the rest
> of us can hear how indistinguishable the bent note is from every
> other note in the line?

Hi handsome. #1 I can't do it. My connection is too slow, and I
(frankly) don't have the wherewithall (read: knowledge/equipment).
#2 The notes WILL be distinguishable. If you were looking for
indistinguishable, sorry to disappoint you. I don't think anyone can
make them undistinguishable. I have agreed countless times in the
past with J.R.Ross that this is nigh impossible to do.

>
> All of us use those bends all the time.

Right, I agree. The way I do these tunes is the same as Charlie
McCoy's versions. If you listen to his versions, it will be close
enough to mine to make a comparison.

> The question is whether you can make the tone, timbre and pitch
> of that bent note absolutely consistent with what's going on around
> it.

I don';think anyone can, but I don't think it ever affected record
sales or an audience's appreciation. The notes are 'close enough' to
satisfy most listeners. Now I don't doubt that a TRUE harmonica ace
could find some fault(s).

> No one in the first ode to Joy Challenge could do it, and the
> participants included some pretty heavy hitters.

I remember that challenge. I thought that a few came close enough for
a cigar. (no names mentioned)

>
> My guess is that it just can't be done, because you MUST change the
> shape of your resonant chamber--mouth, throat, etc.--to hit the
> bend, and that MUST change the sound of the note in some way.

Sure, you are using 4 different pressure levels and tongue shapes for
the 4 individual notes. That's what Hank Bahnson was trying to show
when he did the x-rays of Howard's throat at Pittsburgh Children's
hospital. Now, I hope (since everyone does these same bends), that
everyone understands that it's one thing to hit a note ALREADY bent
but easier to hit these notes in an ASCENDING run (which is what
T.D. Boogie does).
>
> I'll be frank:

I thought you name was Richard?

> I can't do it, and I work on it frequently.

If we're talking TRUE timbre?....no, I can't either. But on a quick
tune, you only need to be (convincing enough) close, to snowjoberall
the whole thing through. That was part of my post. On a slow ballad,
you are really going to have a mouthfull trying to catch and HOLD
these notes on pitch and do so convincingly.

> I can of course make the bends work in a musical context for most
> of what I do, but I wouldn't play the Ode to Joy in second position
> in the bottom octave of a standard Richter in front of a concert
> audience.

I understand, and I'm with you 100% on that. I do do some slower
tunes which require these bends but I am known to slurr one note into
another to the point where it is a steady change of pitch. That's a
lot easier. Most of the stuff I am doing is down in the trenches at
small venues (75-80). Concert situation?..no I don't think so. But
club situation? ..sure, I may even be heard over the tinkling glasses
and dishes hitting the floor.

>
> The best any artist can do is make the change in timbre work
> musically, which of course is what we all do.

And I wasn't trying to infer that we weren't. But the subject came up
and my point was (simplified) "If a person concentrates on a specific
item over and over, it's is logical that they may become (hopefully)
proficient at it". What I was saying was that, like anything else in
life, the more we do something, the better we (should) GET at it. It
was a pretty simple no mystery statement.

> But that's not the same thing.
>
> Like I said: if you think otherwise, show us a recording. That's
> the challenge.

I have a few recordings up on you-tube. I allowed them to be posted
to satisfy some doubts. Apparently, after several years of
informative postings, some folks thought I was all smoke & mirrors.
Future recordings? videos? Probably not. I'm too old to care anymore.

:) sMO-JOe

[Buzap Buzap]

> I don't want to play this piece with perfect pitch and
> identical timbre - I want to loosen it up a bit

Well, if you play along with classical musicians they will be pretty pissed if you "loosen up" their sheet music.
I've tried playing classical music on Augmented "diatonic". But it is just too dirty, it didn't work out sufficiently for the classical music taste.
So, I just use my (dimi) chrom to play classical music or ballads.

O well, still enough left for those bent notes on the short harp ;-)

Buzap

--
Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01