[Harp-L] harp price
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mik jagger
Sep 12, 2012, 3:46:31 PM9/12/12
to har...@harp-l.org
"...go Violin shopping, $30,000 will but some good ones.
The best 30x3" - I really do not buy this argument.Remember how prices jumped 40 to 50% on most harps few years ago? Not on all "imports", just on harmonicas. It's because of points like this. You signal that you are willing to pay more, and german harmonicas become more expensive. A $22 harp is now $30, and assumed to be junk. Xb40 initially available for $60, is now $120, and out of business...Why not do the opposite - press manufacturers for price reductions? It is ok to have a "historically" inexpensive, but fully capable instrument - that's what made harmonica world's #1 instrument in the first place. If it is possible to manufacture a good instrument for $30 - why not be happy (while still demanding consistent quality)? I believe xb40 would be doing fine, had they left prices at the initial $60, instead of shooting themselves in the foot, like they did. Why not even lower the price in time - be unique, be a trend setter! Give us a smaller
version! Instead they believed the hype, this opinion of select few like this one ("oboe players pay more") express any reality of the majority opinion, and market will "bear a price hike" Well, we are not oboe players, guess it (market) is not bearing more in hohner's case. I, for one am happy that there are still enough lee oskars, as well as hohners, and others at $30 range and would not accept a lemon for my hard-earned cash.
The best 30x3" - I really do not buy this argument.Remember how prices jumped 40 to 50% on most harps few years ago? Not on all "imports", just on harmonicas. It's because of points like this. You signal that you are willing to pay more, and german harmonicas become more expensive. A $22 harp is now $30, and assumed to be junk. Xb40 initially available for $60, is now $120, and out of business...Why not do the opposite - press manufacturers for price reductions? It is ok to have a "historically" inexpensive, but fully capable instrument - that's what made harmonica world's #1 instrument in the first place. If it is possible to manufacture a good instrument for $30 - why not be happy (while still demanding consistent quality)? I believe xb40 would be doing fine, had they left prices at the initial $60, instead of shooting themselves in the foot, like they did. Why not even lower the price in time - be unique, be a trend setter! Give us a smaller
version! Instead they believed the hype, this opinion of select few like this one ("oboe players pay more") express any reality of the majority opinion, and market will "bear a price hike" Well, we are not oboe players, guess it (market) is not bearing more in hohner's case. I, for one am happy that there are still enough lee oskars, as well as hohners, and others at $30 range and would not accept a lemon for my hard-earned cash.
Peter Madcat Ruth
Sep 12, 2012, 5:05:43 PM9/12/12
to mik jagger, har...@harp-l.org
The price of harmonicas world-wide has gone up because the price of brass has gone up.
Also, building and tuning a harmonica is very labor intensive.
Peter Madcat Ruth
Musician - Grammy Award Winner
mad...@madcatmusic.net
www.madcatmusic.net
www.youtube.com/user/petermadcatruth
Also, building and tuning a harmonica is very labor intensive.
Peter Madcat Ruth
Musician - Grammy Award Winner
mad...@madcatmusic.net
www.madcatmusic.net
www.youtube.com/user/petermadcatruth
Vern
Sep 12, 2012, 6:05:12 PM9/12/12
to Peter Madcat Ruth, har...@harp-l.org, mik jagger
A 270 Chromaitc weighs 6.2 oz. Assume that it is made entirely of copper (the most expensive component of brass). The current price of copper is $3.70 per pound. That means that the value of the raw materials in a chromatic harmonica cannot be as much as $1.43.
A diatonioc harmonica weighs about 2.3 oz. Using the same assumptions, the value of its raw materials is less than $0.53.
Thus, the value of raw materials is about 1% of the sale price. For this reason, I can't see changes in the cost of raw materials driving harmonica price changes.
The increase in harmonica prices must be the sum of labor + overhead + profit. It may be that prices were lagging inflation and there has been some "catching up". I think that there is enough competition to keep profits reasonable. You can help by buying on quality, service and price while ignoring myths and prejudices.
Whenever you see a product (XB40, CBH2016) or a company (Blockbuster) die , you can bet that it is because of low sales. Also remember that there are not enough Harp-l and Slidemeister members to keep very many harmonica manufacturers in business. Those of us who play seriously, repair and customize our harps are going to be affected by a larger, more casual market.
Vern
A diatonioc harmonica weighs about 2.3 oz. Using the same assumptions, the value of its raw materials is less than $0.53.
Thus, the value of raw materials is about 1% of the sale price. For this reason, I can't see changes in the cost of raw materials driving harmonica price changes.
The increase in harmonica prices must be the sum of labor + overhead + profit. It may be that prices were lagging inflation and there has been some "catching up". I think that there is enough competition to keep profits reasonable. You can help by buying on quality, service and price while ignoring myths and prejudices.
Whenever you see a product (XB40, CBH2016) or a company (Blockbuster) die , you can bet that it is because of low sales. Also remember that there are not enough Harp-l and Slidemeister members to keep very many harmonica manufacturers in business. Those of us who play seriously, repair and customize our harps are going to be affected by a larger, more casual market.
Vern
Joseph Leone
Sep 12, 2012, 6:32:58 PM9/12/12
to Peter Madcat Ruth, harp-l
On Sep 12, 2012, at 5:05 PM, Peter Madcat Ruth wrote:
> The price of harmonicas world-wide has gone up because the price of brass has gone up.
smo-joe
Matthew Smart
Sep 12, 2012, 5:34:31 PM9/12/12
to har...@harp-l.org
In regards to price....Like ive posted before, Hohner has really done a
good job of improving slot tolerances on most hohners. AS madcat said,
the cost of brass has skyrocketed. Everytime time I go to buy a bunch of
brass screws from my supplier they go up in price.
Also, you have to consider the VAT tax in europe. Its my understanding
that everytime a raw material becomes something new it gets taxed.
Example: buy the raw ore, pay a tax. Smelt that ore into a brass piece.
Pay another tax. Make a harmonica with that brass. Pay another tax!
The real question is why are harmonica players so cheap! ha ha including
myself. I dont know of any other instrument in this price range and yet
we all complain about prices. That includes myself~!
good job of improving slot tolerances on most hohners. AS madcat said,
the cost of brass has skyrocketed. Everytime time I go to buy a bunch of
brass screws from my supplier they go up in price.
Also, you have to consider the VAT tax in europe. Its my understanding
that everytime a raw material becomes something new it gets taxed.
Example: buy the raw ore, pay a tax. Smelt that ore into a brass piece.
Pay another tax. Make a harmonica with that brass. Pay another tax!
The real question is why are harmonica players so cheap! ha ha including
myself. I dont know of any other instrument in this price range and yet
we all complain about prices. That includes myself~!
Jerry Deall
Sep 12, 2012, 6:19:22 PM9/12/12
to Vern, har...@harp-l.org, Peter Madcat Ruth, mik jagger
Don't forget scrap and waste, very little of the sheet metal actually makes it into the harp.
Thanks Jerry,
Thanks Jerry,
Vern
Sep 12, 2012, 7:45:05 PM9/12/12
to Jerry Deall, har...@harp-l.org, Peter Madcat Ruth, mik jagger
But the brass scrap is recycled.
Vern
On Sep 12, 2012, at 3:19 PM, Jerry Deall wrote:
> Don't forget scrap and waste, very little of the sheet metal actually makes it into the harp.
>
>
> Thanks Jerry,
>
Vern
On Sep 12, 2012, at 3:19 PM, Jerry Deall wrote:
> Don't forget scrap and waste, very little of the sheet metal actually makes it into the harp.
>
>
> Thanks Jerry,
>
Matthew Smart
Sep 12, 2012, 6:56:51 PM9/12/12
to Vern, har...@harp-l.org, Peter Madcat Ruth, mik jagger
Yes you are correct, metals are very cheap. But you are not accounting
for tooling costs and labor. that has to be accounted for. I will share
some estimated costs for you if let's say Hetrick was to build their own
line of harmonicas. I actually looked into this once. Please don't take
any offense to this or get angry. I think this is a great discussion and
I also think it is important for people to understand what it takes to
manufacture things.
Here is my example: Doing it very simply: Doing one model of harmonica
meaning one set of coverplates, one reed/reedplate design, one comb and
no low harps.
1) Cost of research and development $25,000-$50,000 (to make sure it
doesnt suck and holds up over time, this was very low estimate)
2) Cost of a punch press machine to make reedplates and reeds and covers
$10,000 (this is a very cheap one)
3) Cost of cutting dies to make blank reedplates $5,000 - $10,000 (this
is assuming I make only one set which means only long slot and no F# can
be offered)
4) Cost of cutting dies for coverplates $5,000-$10,000
5) Cost of reeds being machined or stamped (I did not get this far when
i did research). Let's say $20,000. This is just to make the machine
molds to make them mind you. This is the most difficult thing to make.
6) Cost of a crappy injection molded plastic comb. I am guessing here,
probably 5 to 10 thousand to make the first batch and the mold, then
cheaper after that.
7) Unless I am lucky enough to find all out of the box screws and don't
need to pay to have custom ones made...Add another $1-$2 thousand
dollars for decent coverplate screws that are male/female (I recently
had some made).
8) Cost of chroming or coating coverplates I have no idea....but that
has to be added in
9) Cost of marketing and distribution no idea there but also needs to be
accounted for
10) Cost of making a box and packaging. Im not sure, but I know Dave
Payne at HH said they had to settle on little leather bags that were 8
bucks a piece unless they outsourced to china. Lets say $5K if we are cheap.
11) Don't forget that I can't sell it for 30 bucks. It is more like
20%-40% less because I have to give a cut to distributors to get it in
your hands.
What do you think? There are many other costs, these are just a few. My
total tooling up cost (minus anything above I did not give an estimate
for) could easily be $100,000. This is just to get started making them
and in low production numbers, maybe a few hundred a month. I did not
add in the cost of metals, materials, other tools for tuning, riveting
and of course the labor charges to pay employees to get things made.
for tooling costs and labor. that has to be accounted for. I will share
some estimated costs for you if let's say Hetrick was to build their own
line of harmonicas. I actually looked into this once. Please don't take
any offense to this or get angry. I think this is a great discussion and
I also think it is important for people to understand what it takes to
manufacture things.
Here is my example: Doing it very simply: Doing one model of harmonica
meaning one set of coverplates, one reed/reedplate design, one comb and
no low harps.
1) Cost of research and development $25,000-$50,000 (to make sure it
doesnt suck and holds up over time, this was very low estimate)
2) Cost of a punch press machine to make reedplates and reeds and covers
$10,000 (this is a very cheap one)
3) Cost of cutting dies to make blank reedplates $5,000 - $10,000 (this
is assuming I make only one set which means only long slot and no F# can
be offered)
4) Cost of cutting dies for coverplates $5,000-$10,000
5) Cost of reeds being machined or stamped (I did not get this far when
i did research). Let's say $20,000. This is just to make the machine
molds to make them mind you. This is the most difficult thing to make.
6) Cost of a crappy injection molded plastic comb. I am guessing here,
probably 5 to 10 thousand to make the first batch and the mold, then
cheaper after that.
7) Unless I am lucky enough to find all out of the box screws and don't
need to pay to have custom ones made...Add another $1-$2 thousand
dollars for decent coverplate screws that are male/female (I recently
had some made).
8) Cost of chroming or coating coverplates I have no idea....but that
has to be added in
9) Cost of marketing and distribution no idea there but also needs to be
accounted for
10) Cost of making a box and packaging. Im not sure, but I know Dave
Payne at HH said they had to settle on little leather bags that were 8
bucks a piece unless they outsourced to china. Lets say $5K if we are cheap.
11) Don't forget that I can't sell it for 30 bucks. It is more like
20%-40% less because I have to give a cut to distributors to get it in
your hands.
What do you think? There are many other costs, these are just a few. My
total tooling up cost (minus anything above I did not give an estimate
for) could easily be $100,000. This is just to get started making them
and in low production numbers, maybe a few hundred a month. I did not
add in the cost of metals, materials, other tools for tuning, riveting
and of course the labor charges to pay employees to get things made.
mi...@chaserkeywest.com
Sep 12, 2012, 6:47:12 PM9/12/12
to Peter Madcat Ruth, har...@harp-l.org, mik jagger
During the mistake of Vietnam .....Brass and Copper shot through the roof # 1 Copper was scrap price of a dollar a pound in 1970.
The World has been using a lot of bullets/ Shells....Brass and Copper
Having said that...a nice lunch and good beer with run $30 and go down the drain the next day !
Mike Wilbur
The World has been using a lot of bullets/ Shells....Brass and Copper
Having said that...a nice lunch and good beer with run $30 and go down the drain the next day !
Mike Wilbur
Maurice Nazzaro
Sep 12, 2012, 7:56:31 PM9/12/12
to Matthew Smart, har...@harp-l.org
It's not like buying guitar brother. All you need to rebuy are strings
Maurice Nazzaro
Maurice Nazzaro
Joseph Leone
Sep 12, 2012, 10:44:16 PM9/12/12
to Matthew Smart, harp-l
On Sep 12, 2012, at 5:34 PM, Matthew Smart wrote:
>
> The real question is why are harmonica players so cheap! ha ha including myself. I dont know of any other instrument in this price range and yet we all complain about prices. That includes myself~!
smo-joe
Robert Hale
Sep 13, 2012, 1:45:48 AM9/13/12
to mik jagger, har...@harp-l.org
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:46 PM, mik jagger <harpo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I believe xb40 would be doing fine, had they left prices at the initial
> $60, instead of shooting themselves in the foot, like they did.
P-shaw! (May I say p-shaw among harp friends?)
> I believe xb40 would be doing fine, had they left prices at the initial
> $60, instead of shooting themselves in the foot, like they did.
Prices surely go "up" because the buying power of the currency has gone
down, not primarily because a harmonica manufacturer raised the profit
margin.
The first rule of business is to Stay In Business. (It's too easy to sit on
the outside and criticize.) Talk to any upper level maager in any industry
and learn what grief goes into these decisions. You want cheaper harps?
Advocate smaller, less-intrusive government and regulations. (Meta alert!)
Every innovation of something NEW comes from taking a risk with your money,
hoping your idea will be rewarded, earn it back, and then some.
Should-a Could-a Would-a.
I'm gonna go do what I can afford to do: Go practice my harps.
Robert Hale
Spiral Advocate
Learn Harmonica by Webcam
Low Rates, High Success
http://www.youtube.com/DUKEofWAIL
http://www.dukeofwail.com
Joseph Leone
Sep 13, 2012, 1:56:32 AM9/13/12
to mi...@chaserkeywest.com, harp-l
On Sep 12, 2012, at 6:47 PM, mi...@chaserkeywest.com wrote:
> During the mistake of Vietnam .....Brass and Copper shot through the roof # 1 Copper was scrap price of a dollar a pound in 1970.
> The World has been using a lot of bullets/ Shells....Brass and Copper
>
> Having said that...a nice lunch and good beer with run $30 and go down the drain the next day !
>
> Mike Wilbur
smo-joe
sonicviz
Sep 13, 2012, 3:42:45 AM9/13/12
to har...@googlegroups.com, mi...@chaserkeywest.com, harp-l, 3n...@comcast.net
Depending where you live, that won't get you much even at the low end of town.
mi...@chaserkeywest.com
Sep 13, 2012, 7:08:28 AM9/13/12
to Robert Hale, har...@harp-l.org, mik jagger
P-Shaw Robert would be walking the line but....sometimes a man hasta !
Mike Wilbur
Mike Wilbur
mi...@chaserkeywest.com
Sep 13, 2012, 7:11:49 AM9/13/12
to Joseph Leone, harp-l
Great Smo-Joe, lunch is every other Thursday unless it rains.
I have breakfast on Monday's ....saving for another Harp
Mike Wilbur
I have breakfast on Monday's ....saving for another Harp
Mike Wilbur
Jeff Baker
Sep 13, 2012, 10:47:40 AM9/13/12
to Joseph Leone, harp-l
> Normally when you pay upwards of 100 bucks (73.5 euros) for
> something, it lasts a good long time.
Unfortunately the $100 bill is the new $20 . . .
> something, it lasts a good long time.
JB
Slim Heilpern
Sep 13, 2012, 11:11:18 AM9/13/12
to harp-l harp-l
Indeed, according to the inflation calculator here http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm, a harp that cost $20 in 1973 would cost $103.20 today when adjusted for inflation, based on the consumer price index.
As far as how long harmonicas last, probably longer than most cell phones, no? ;-)
- Slim.
As far as how long harmonicas last, probably longer than most cell phones, no? ;-)
- Slim.
Matthew Smart
Sep 13, 2012, 11:05:45 AM9/13/12
to Joseph Leone, harp-l
I have not blown a reed out in 5 or 6 years. I think they last. Do you?
W B
Sep 13, 2012, 11:34:19 AM9/13/12
to harp-l
I really can't worry about the cost of good harps. It is what it is. I
am in love with the harmonica. I will sacrifice what ever I need to
sacrifice to be well stocked with good harps. I think back to the days
of hangin at the bar, dropping $20. at a whack not thinking twice
about it. On a Fri or Sat that $20 could turn into $40-$50 pretty
easy! Eating at home and not out at restaurants anymore buys me a good
harp a week at least. I have also blown many a dollar on other things
that really didn't matter. No more of that! I have been lucky and
have had special wholesale harp connections due to me selling harps on
the side for over 30 years. For a while there I would buy
$500.00-$1000.00 worth of harps at least once a year. Sell some and
always have fresh stock for myself no matter what. Now that i am a
Seydel 1847 man with the stainless reeds i rarely blow out a harp. I
have enough new stock and replacement reeds to last me til i am dead
now. I am sure i will still end up buying more at some point. I am a
compulsive & obsessive harp guy. I dread the day i am in a situation
of great musical significance and i don't have a fresh harp to pull
out in any key. Bottom line: I think that Seydel, Hohner and Suzuki
are doing a fine job serving our market. Most of us have no clue of
what happens behind the scenes at these companies. I doubt any of them
are getting extremely wealthy. The cost to be in business
today,manufacturing a quality product and getting it to market cannot
be very inexpensive.
Warren Bee
am in love with the harmonica. I will sacrifice what ever I need to
sacrifice to be well stocked with good harps. I think back to the days
of hangin at the bar, dropping $20. at a whack not thinking twice
about it. On a Fri or Sat that $20 could turn into $40-$50 pretty
easy! Eating at home and not out at restaurants anymore buys me a good
harp a week at least. I have also blown many a dollar on other things
that really didn't matter. No more of that! I have been lucky and
have had special wholesale harp connections due to me selling harps on
the side for over 30 years. For a while there I would buy
$500.00-$1000.00 worth of harps at least once a year. Sell some and
always have fresh stock for myself no matter what. Now that i am a
Seydel 1847 man with the stainless reeds i rarely blow out a harp. I
have enough new stock and replacement reeds to last me til i am dead
now. I am sure i will still end up buying more at some point. I am a
compulsive & obsessive harp guy. I dread the day i am in a situation
of great musical significance and i don't have a fresh harp to pull
out in any key. Bottom line: I think that Seydel, Hohner and Suzuki
are doing a fine job serving our market. Most of us have no clue of
what happens behind the scenes at these companies. I doubt any of them
are getting extremely wealthy. The cost to be in business
today,manufacturing a quality product and getting it to market cannot
be very inexpensive.
Warren Bee
The Iceman
Sep 13, 2012, 11:50:51 AM9/13/12
to har...@harp-l.org
I believe there is a quantifiable quotient to making a reed vibrate and the force necessary to instigate, sustain, and allow the reed to give all it has at a certain point of stimulation. Going beyond this point is diminishing returns. In other words, you are using more force than is necessary and getting less results overall - the upshot is that you begin to damage or stress the reed leading to blowing out.
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Smart <matthe...@gmail.com>
To: Joseph Leone <3n...@comcast.net>
Cc: harp-l <har...@harp-l.org>
Sent: Thu, Sep 13, 2012 11:18 am
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] harp price
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Smart <matthe...@gmail.com>
To: Joseph Leone <3n...@comcast.net>
Cc: harp-l <har...@harp-l.org>
Sent: Thu, Sep 13, 2012 11:18 am
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] harp price
mik jagger
Sep 13, 2012, 12:13:37 PM9/13/12
to har...@harp-l.org
Warren, you definitely have a right to enjoy your money any way you see fit (as long as it does not harm others), and I share many of your feelings and reasoning, as well as the dreaded "harmonica acquisition disorder". But I feel that when we signal to manufacturers that we are willing to pay more, or inversely, willing to accept lesser quality for the lower price (hey, it's just a "$30 junk harp") we should think twice about that. It is great that you have the means to pay more. Ideally we want every living human being to be that secure, that they can indulge in non-necessities of physical survival like you can. This forum is a great way for harp community to communicate with manufacturers, they surely read out posts here. However, they (and us) should not fall into a trap of thinking that the entire multi-million member world-wide community of harp players is represented here. On contrary, most people that play harmonica worldwide do not have access
to computer, even today. even in our push and plush land of USof A, for many people that buy harmonica, it is often a choice between that and paying their electric bill, or buying a toy for their child. It is great to expect prices to stay where they are (adjusting for inflation would be reasonable, but not more) and get great quality like we expect from any other product that's advertized as fully functioning one. After all, you do not offer to pay $30.00 per pizza slice at your local pizzeria, just because you ate a plate of 6 oysters last night and payed $30.00 for the dish that doesn't even need to be cooked, plus that pizza guy is such a friendly neighbor. There is generousity, and there is an ethical awareness that inflating prices for others with less means is not fair. It reminds me of my uncle once teaching me a lesson: he was always a great tipper at restaurants, and at one time that I invited him for lunch, I wanted to be just as cool, if not
more and was about to leave a huge tip, like 70% or even 100%, I don't remember exactly. I was a teenager then. He pointed out to me that it was foolish and wrong - leave great tip, but not unreasonable one because you mess it up for other customers, as well as the waiter, if somehow he begins to expect such tips from everyone.
to computer, even today. even in our push and plush land of USof A, for many people that buy harmonica, it is often a choice between that and paying their electric bill, or buying a toy for their child. It is great to expect prices to stay where they are (adjusting for inflation would be reasonable, but not more) and get great quality like we expect from any other product that's advertized as fully functioning one. After all, you do not offer to pay $30.00 per pizza slice at your local pizzeria, just because you ate a plate of 6 oysters last night and payed $30.00 for the dish that doesn't even need to be cooked, plus that pizza guy is such a friendly neighbor. There is generousity, and there is an ethical awareness that inflating prices for others with less means is not fair. It reminds me of my uncle once teaching me a lesson: he was always a great tipper at restaurants, and at one time that I invited him for lunch, I wanted to be just as cool, if not
more and was about to leave a huge tip, like 70% or even 100%, I don't remember exactly. I was a teenager then. He pointed out to me that it was foolish and wrong - leave great tip, but not unreasonable one because you mess it up for other customers, as well as the waiter, if somehow he begins to expect such tips from everyone.
Joseph Leone
Sep 13, 2012, 2:20:29 PM9/13/12
to Matthew Smart, harp-l
On Sep 13, 2012, at 11:05 AM, Matthew Smart wrote:
> I have not blown a reed out in 5 or 6 years. I think they last. Do you?
Matthew Smart
Sep 13, 2012, 2:32:49 PM9/13/12
to Joseph Leone, harp-l
I just talked to a customer in brazil and they have to pay 80 bucks for
hohners~! yikes
hohners~! yikes
Music Cal
Sep 13, 2012, 5:06:02 PM9/13/12
to harp-L list
I would be more than happy to pay more for greater quality. The problem, as
I see it, is that there are no harps available in the greater than 300 USD
range that are considerably better, with respect to sound quality and
playability, than those in the less than 300 USD range.
I see it, is that there are no harps available in the greater than 300 USD
range that are considerably better, with respect to sound quality and
playability, than those in the less than 300 USD range.
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