[Harp-L] Bob Dylan Signature Harmonica Gripe

[Buddha]

Why are you guys talking about the Bob Dylan series when he's at least
contributed to the evolution of many harmonica players. I know when I
play, there have been many occasions where people have asked me to
play a Dylan song. Heck, I've even been asked to play Piano Man when
my trio only consisted of Harmonica, Bass and Drums...

Are all y'alls aware of this fantastic piece of *****? WHY would
Hohner bring in this "harmonica savant" to build a harp to his
specifications? What possible specification could he possibly have
other than it has to make noise?

http://www.hohnerusa.com/index.php?1738

I'd like to see Hohner build a harp to Joe Filisko specifications THEN
maybe we'd all be getting somewhere.
_______________________________________________
Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org
Har...@harp-l.org
http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l

[Tim Moyer]

Buddha wrote:
> WHY would Hohner bring in this "harmonica savant" to build
> a harp to his specifications? What possible specification
> could he possibly have other than it has to make noise?
>
> http://www.hohnerusa.com/index.php?1738
>
> I'd like to see Hohner build a harp to Joe Filisko
> specifications THEN maybe we'd all be getting somewhere.

This list is funny. On one hand, we have long debates about what can
be done to popularize the harmonica in the mainstream. On the other
hand, we have long debates over the merits of people who have done
exactly that.

Like it or not, rightly or wrongly, more people hear Steve Tyler play
harmonica every day than will hear Joe Filisko in a lifetime. For my
money, Steve Tyler is a great entertainer first, and a harmonica player
somewhere around 2,364th. But if he inspires a generation to pick up a
harp and suck and blow, that's enough to get him a "signature" series.

-tim

[Rob Paparozzi]

Ahhhh but if we are seeking the 'respect' that other instruments have,
shouldn't we be concerned with "Quality" not "Quantity", we are already a
'popular' instrument but low on the food chain of musical instruments.

I mean what is the player looking for in a Dylan or Tyler 'harp spec' wise?
"Yeah I need a harp that I can get sloppy bends and broken single notes
on....,-)"....ok sorry to be so cynical but you get my drift.....,-)

I don't see Banjo companys making the "Steve Martin" sig series or
Violin companys pushing a "Jack Benny" model....now, I'm not calling Dylan
or Tyler comedians but when you've put in as much time on the instrument as
most of us on Harp-l...you have to wonder why we go from Toots and Adler on
Chrom to Dylan and Tyler on Diatonic surely we can set a better example than
that.

But if it's ONLY about $$$ than I guess my point is moot.... just my 2cents
best,
Rob P

[Rob Paparozzi]

oh some were asking which is the Harry Belafonte record with Dylan on Harp?:

http://www.musicstack.com/item/6223697/belafonte,harry/the+midnight

orig rel 1962

Rob P

[Rob Paparozzi]

I forget to attach this.....

1961, Bob Dylan played harmonica during a Harry Belafonte recording session
(produced by Hugo Montenegro) at RCA Studios, New York, NY.
The resulting track ("Midnight Special") was released on RCA LPM 2449/LSP
2449 in March 1962.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Paparozzi" <Chro...@earthlink.net>
To: <har...@harp-l.org>

[Joe and Cass Leone]

On Sep 8, 2008, at 3:59 PM, Rob Paparozzi wrote:

> Ahhhh but if we are seeking the 'respect' that other instruments
> have, shouldn't we be concerned with "Quality" not "Quantity", we
> are already a 'popular' instrument but low on the food chain of
> musical instruments.
>
> I mean what is the player looking for in a Dylan or Tyler 'harp
> spec' wise? "Yeah I need a harp that I can get sloppy bends and
> broken single notes on....,-)"....ok sorry to be so cynical but you
> get my drift.....,-)
>
> I don't see Banjo companys making the "Steve Martin" sig series
> or Violin companys pushing a "Jack Benny" model....now, I'm not
> calling Dylan or Tyler comedians but when you've put in as much
> time on the instrument as most of us on Harp-l...you have to wonder
> why we go from Toots and Adler on Chrom to Dylan and Tyler on
> Diatonic surely we can set a better example than that.
>
> But if it's ONLY about $$$ than I guess my point is moot.... just
> my 2cents
> best,
> Rob P

Right on the money Rob and while we're on this subject, I think one
of the large mega-harmonica compaines should come out with a
Christmas model. The "Rob Paparozzi 'A Christmas Song' model".
Because no one will ever do that tune the way you do it. Every time I
hear it, it makes me cry.

smo-joe (p.s. early mornings on the Danube in Sept. can be foggy and
49 degrees, so take a 'sweat shirt-jacket' just to take the nip out
of the air).

[David Payne]

Rob, I agree totally, but that no Steve Martin Banjos made me think of something... the Andy Griffith signature D-18 Martin, but then again, Andy could actually play guitar and there's a good backstory on how he got the D-18 (stole/rescued it) that he played on the show... that makes an interesting feel-good story.
What I don't like about it, is that it sends a message about diatonics. As in, our signature chrom is Larry Adler, check out how he plays. Our signature harp is Bob Dylan, now check out how he plays. That sends a wrong message about the diatonic.
How come there's no Rob Paparozzi signature harp, that's what I wanna know. I would be in favor of more things like that, becauseit makes the world more interesting. How many harps did Hohner make in the 1930s? About a 2 bazillion. What were 1.999999(repeating 9s there) bazillion? Marine Bands...
I like the idea of doing different things, but, my, of all the harp players out there, did they have to give it to Dylan?
Dave
_________________________
Dave Payne Sr.
Elk River Harmonicas
www.elkriverharmonicas.com

[Cara Cooke]

FYI: Like Andy Griffith, Steve Martin and Jack Benny actually play/played.
It is/was the perception they create(d) as comedians that would make it
ludicrous to market a special instrument with their name attached -- unless,
of course, the instrument itself was ludicrous.

[Joe and Cass Leone]

On Sep 8, 2008, at 5:49 PM, Cara Cooke wrote:

> FYI: Like Andy Griffith, Steve Martin and Jack Benny actually play/
> played.
> It is/was the perception they create(d) as comedians that would
> make it
> ludicrous to market a special instrument with their name attached
> -- unless,
> of course, the instrument itself was ludicrous.
>

I have to agree with Cara on this. When I was 10 (1952), the only
harmonica players I knew about were:
1... The Harmonica Rascals of Borrah Minevitch. Because of the short
subjects that one would see at the cinema.
2... Blackie Schackner. Whom I saw at a stage show at New York's
Roxy theater.

By age 20 (1962) I added:
1... The Harmonicats
2... Rice Miller
3... Lazy Lester
4... Wilhelmina Mae Thornton
5... L'il Walt
6... Sonny Terry
7... Paul Butterfield
8... Stevie Wonder

By age 30 (1972) I added
1... Charley McCoy (T.V.s Hee Haw)
2... Richard Hayman
3... Toots Thielemans (kids watched Sesame St.)
4... Jr. Wells

By age 40 (1982) I added
?
By age 50 (1992) I added
Most of the people we talk about today.

What's my point? Well, I think I am like most people in that I hadn't
heard about most harmonica players till I was already too old to
care. I think the general public wouldn't be able to name a half
dozen players if they tried, BUT names like Dylan, Lewis, Popper,
Young, and like that WILL occasionally pop up.

As for naming a harp after a particular player. I (personally) think
it's silly. What the manufacturers SHOULD have done (all along) was
to make a 'Premium' models. That way, there would be a market for
them. You could say "I just bought a Suzuki model #3
Excelsior...ain't she a beauty?"

smo-joe

[Bradford Trainham]

It wasn't... Ernest T Bass who stole that guitar, was it?
But seriously, despite everything I've said in defense of Dylan, I do
understand objections to a line of signature harps when there are so many
better harmonica players around.
Brad ("The Pa..Ci..Fic... O....cean") Trainham

[David Payne]

I thought the Andy Griffith D-18 was a really good idea, because it was a recreation of something unique. Andy got his from his debut movie, "A Face in the Crowd," made in the mid 1950s, where he plays this evil media star corrupted with power. The prop department needed a guitar, so they got this new Martin D-18, SPRAY painted it black and glued sequins on it to spell "Lonesome" and "Mama" Andy was appalled by what they did to this guitar, so he spent quite a few hours sanding off the paint, he actually wound up sanding through the pickguard, he carefully removed the sequins and gave it to an archtop guitar builder in New York (DiAngleo?) to refinish. Anytime you see a guitar on the show that does not have a pickguard, it is that guitar... as seen here: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvYDpXfiDuQ
The Andy D-18 signature has no pickguard, etc.
So, my point is, if you have a signature instrument, it ought to be something specific and unique. That original guitar of Andy's was one of a kind, because of its story and because of what Andy did and had done to it.
Now the Dylan series is an MS with Dylan's name on it. That's quite a bit different.
If I were to make a Joe Leone signature diatonic, I'd probably make a 7-hole Marine Band, to recreate the one Joe made from the one that was run over by a train, or bus, or streetcar, whatever it was. But it would be unique, it would tell a story. That's what a good signature product ought to be.
Another example, If there were a Dave Payne signature harp, it would have a nailed, sealed wood comb. It might be just-intonation tuned.
Dave

___________________
Dave Payne Sr.
Elk River Harmonicas
www.elkriverharmonicas.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Joe and Cass Leone <le...@ewol.com>
To: Cara Cooke <cybe...@gmail.com>
Cc: har...@harp-l.com
Sent: Monday, September 8, 2008 6:20:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Bob Dylan Signature Harmonica Gripe

smo-joe

[BostonMoeJo]

Helloooooooo...

The most famous harmonica company in the world got the most famous harmonica player in the world to endorse a limited edition, signature edition harmonica. It sounds like a good business/marketing decision from where I sit. I know nothing of the financial arrangement but I'd be willing to bet Hohner paid dearly for the deal.

Whether Hohner or Dylan are the "best" is certainly subjective.

Gripe, gripe, gripe, gripe, gripe.

I thought this was supposed to be a happy place.

[Rick Dempster]

No Larry Adler, Joe? That blacklist really must have worked!
RD

>>> Joe and Cass Leone <le...@ewol.com> 9/09/2008 8:20 >>>

[Rick Dempster]

I played with Johnny Shines when he was in Australia in the late seventies. He was playing Trini Lopez model Gibson.
RD

>>> BostonMoeJo <bosto...@aol.com> 9/09/2008 9:25 >>>

[John Brockus]

About Steve Martin, just to cloud the issue:

He does have a Grammy award for a recording playing banjo...

"Best Country Instrumental Performance"

Of course, he was backing up Earl Scruggs...

[Joe and Cass Leone]

On Sep 9, 2008, at 1:01 AM, John Brockus wrote:

> About Steve Martin, just to cloud the issue:
>
> He does have a Grammy award for a recording playing banjo...
>
> "Best Country Instrumental Performance"
>
> Of course, he was backing up Earl Scruggs...
> _______________________________________________
>

Early in his career, Steve brought out the banjo as part of his
schtick, but lately, he has only played it seriously. As for being
famous as a prerequisite
to getting something named after you, I can name 10 'nose
stretchers', 15 'buglers', and 10 'liquorice stick' suckers, NONE of
whom have a trombone, trumpet or clarinet named after them. Believe
it or not, 1 is Woody Allen. THAT's getting pretty famous. The whole
signature thing is just plain silly.

The problem with naming something after someone is that it is
subjective. I call everyone's attention to the old 'Playboy Jazz
Poll' which placed Miles Davis at #UNO trumpet for years and years.
In actuality, according to the 'Trumpet players list', he ranks
somewhere around 8th or 9th. Les Paul is a marvelous player but he's
not the best. I don't think he's the most famous either.

If 'I' were to put out a 'signature' guitar, it would be 'Los Indios
Tabaljares'. Signature vibes would be Cal Tjader. Signature
trumpet..Harry James. Signature chromatic..Hendrik Meurkens.
Signature diatonic..Howard Levy. See what I mean? It's all subjective.

smo-joe

[Daniel Gage]

It's funny how certain subjects seem to be on a fixed rotation on Harp-L. I remember getting lambasted for publicly expressing my dislike for Dylan's harp playing a couple of years ago. The arguments were all about his song writing, his mass appeal, and the impact he had on the generation. My argument: "It just sounds ugly to me". (emphasis on: "TO ME")

I read Richard Hunter's post, and totally dug it. Then I read Chris M's post, totally agreed with it, and then I was sitting at home watching Dire Straits clips on youtube. Many people claim that Knopfler is in the same songwriting vein as Dylan or Springsteen. OK, so I saw The Boss once, and the show was really good. I sing Glory Days to myself, or Quinn the Eskimo from time to time, but I don't own any Springsteen or Dylan Material. Why? I don't really like em. To me, they're harmonica abusers, and I just can't enjoy what they do to the instrument I love.

Then I realized why I love Mark Knopfler so much. He can play the heck out of the guitar. There's no question of defending his weakness with his strength. He goes out there and just kills it. I think I like it better when people are really good at what they do for an audience. But that's my opinion eh? There's plenty of room on the planet for everyone else, so please don't attack me. It's just a net forum after all.

bonus harmonica content. . . not that anyone cares. . . I am hitting the 6OB much more consistently and musically lately. Still can't do it onstage though. Must'nt be ready yet.

dan g.

[Richard Hammersley]

On other discussion lists, you can bet there are similar cyclical
debates along the lines of

Bob Dylan's singing - can he/ how can he?

Bob Dylan - greatest English language poet of the 2nd half of the 20th
century... or not?

On the other hand, I have plenty of friends who like Dylan but don't
generally enjoy the sound of harmonica maestros at play. I have others
who don't even like the blues. And most people cannot stand some of
the music I love, like later John Coltrane or later Miles Davis (after
he went mad, as one big band director and trumpet player described it).

As Neil Innes of the Bonzo Dog Do-dah Band said as he sat down on stage
"I've suffered for my art, now its your turn"

Bad technique can cause suffering in the audience, but so can too much
technique employed entirely for its own sake.

The qualities I like in Dylan the musician - a welcome lack of
perfectionism, a willingness to try new things and change old ones, an
eclecticism, a willingness to use intuition to get a sound, rather
than working it all out in terms of music theory, the ability to sing
a song for more than 9 minutes over a simple riff or 2 without boring
the listener senseless. These qualities are rarer than people with
massive musical taste and technique. In fact every town has someone
who can play like Knopfler/ Clapton etc. but hasn't quite made it for
various reasons and usually gigs in the local dive. NOT every town has
the harmonica equivalent, because it is a more rarely played instrument.

Treasure Dylan and learn from him, you don't have to enjoy all his
stuff.

I would not name a harmonica after him, I would name a musical genre
after him: "Americana" is really "Dylan Music" as he was the first to
put it all together and do whatever the hell he pleased with it.
Before that there were various 'traditions' instead.

Richard Hammersley
Grantshouse, Scottish Borders
http://www.last.fm/music/Richard+Hammersley
http://www.myspace.com/rhammersley
http://www.myspace.com/magpiesittingdown

[Icem...@aol.com]

We are but a small group of passionate harmonica lovers - this list has
what, maybe 1000 subscribers?

Sometimes it feels like we are a mighty group - however, do the numbers. We
are not even a drop in the bucket of humanity - less than 1% of 1% of the
buying market. Why shouldn't a company try a strategy to reach a larger
percentage of the market? If a company doesn't take the turn a prophet philosophy, it
will eventually disappear. Why bash Hohner or Dylan because of an honest
capitalistic outlook or because he doesn't play harmonica as well as we like?

The Iceman


In a message dated 9/8/2008 5:14:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
da...@elkriverharmonicas.com writes:

I like the idea of doing different things, but, my, of all the harp players
out there, did they have to give it to Dylan?

**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)

[Icem...@aol.com]

Sometimes a greater appreciation is developed when one spends the time to
learn about the origins/history of an artist. To understand Dylan and his
impact, one has to go back to the Beat Generation poets and writers and grasp how
they changed America. Dylan was the next natural extension of this wave of
change, with humble beginnings and a unique view of America. The fact that
Dylan, like Miles Davis, continued to change to satisfy his own drive, also
angered many of his loyal fans at certain junctions along his road. However, he
chose to be true to himself - an admirable trait. This is the backdrop upon
which he pulled out his harmonica and played.

[fjm]

> this list has
> what, maybe 1000 subscribers?

Not to invalidate the point but the number is nearly 1800 subscribers. fjm

[Danny]

With regard to the references of Martin Guitar Signature Models, let's
not overlook
our "very own" Kenny Sultan and the 2007 000-18 Kenny Sultan Custom
Edition.

Kenny, of the Tom Ball / Kenny Sultan duo!

Check it at: http://www.tomballkennysultan.com - upper RH column. Don't
forget
to click on the referenced links for more info.

- Danny

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BassHarp
PO Box 5061
Hudson, FL 34674-5061

* Available for Ensemble and/or Session Work
* http://www.bassharp.com/bh_itin.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Phil...@aol.com]

In a message dated 9/9/08 8:53:10 AM, bad...@3hat.org writes:

> > this list has 
> > what, maybe 1000 subscribers?
>
> Not to invalidate the point but the number is nearly 1800 subscribers.  fjm
>

> Just out of curiousity I would like to know the names of the 6 guys who
haven't complained about the Dylan harp.

Phil

**************

Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)

[Joe and Cass Leone]

On Sep 9, 2008, at 8:27 AM, Icem...@aol.com wrote:

> Sometimes a greater appreciation is developed when one spends the
> time to
> learn about the origins/history of an artist. To understand Dylan
> and his
> impact, one has to go back to the Beat Generation poets and writers
> and grasp how
> they changed America. Dylan was the next natural extension of this
> wave of
> change, with humble beginnings and a unique view of America. The
> fact that
> Dylan, like Miles Davis, continued to change to satisfy his own
> drive, also
> angered many of his loyal fans at certain junctions along his road.
> However, he
> chose to be true to himself - an admirable trait. This is the
> backdrop upon
> which he pulled out his harmonica and played.
>

I think it all comes down to hero worship (of a certain level). On a
scale of 10, people tend to be sheep. I don't mean that in a bad way.
But people will either:
1... adore someone to the point of obsession.
2... think that they did ok as an entertainer, but not like
everything they did
3... think they were no big deal
4... be totally oblivious to them
5... take them or leave them alone
6... say "whatever"
7... want to be EXACTLY like them
and boop boop. bip bip

I fit category #3

Beings that we are the same age, I should know a lot more about Dylan
than I do. But I don't. While I didn't dislike him, I didn't really
think he was anything special. First of all, I wasn't a hippie type.
I was a blue collar working slob. I didn't have time for protest
songs and songs about things that were basically 'downers'. A lot of
his stuff seemed like they were the laments of a looser.

He himself didn't care for hippies. He even opted out of Woodstock
because of his disdain for the great unwashed unshaved. He probably
(?) thought of himself more as a beatnick and intellectual. He WAS
very articulate and could debate with the best of them. According to
some of the clips I have seen of him giving interviews. As far as a
harmonica player. I don't think that was what he eschewed. A
songwriter has a leg up on all the competition. To get to hear HIS
songs, you had to get HIM. He wasn't selling them to anyone else. He
was selling them to US. (in one way or another). And anything that
was a means to that end was what he did.

I think the kid was brilliant in that respect. Would I cross the
street to see him. Probably. Would I pay big bucks for a ticket.
Probably not. Did I think he (his total package) was Ok? Yeah, he was
Ok. I feel the same way about him as I do about MOST of the super-
heros of the music world. Some are Ok, some have no talent. They are
just people. Like you and me. They're not Gods.

smo-joe

[Bill]

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 1:27 PM, <Icem...@aol.com> wrote:

> "To understand Dylan and his impact, one has to go back to the Beat
> Generation poets and writers and grasp how
> they changed America."

Not just America lol!