[Harp-L] Willie Dixon Controversy

[jcolb...@juno.com]

In my earlier statement about Willie Dixon claiming credit for songs he did not write, I assumed that this was commonly known. I guess not. My source is from am interview with either Buddy Guy or BB King in a guitar magazine. I have been tearing my house apart trying to find that issue. No luck. Some one who is no longer on Harp-l but check the archives e-mailed me off list. He confirmed my statements. He has asked to remain anonymous because, in his words, he doesn't "have any published references to back it up" and knows "that most of the folks on the Harp-l won't accept anything you can't confirm on the internet." And he really doesn't "have time to defend and justify" his comments. I looked into this person, he does have the credentials to speak knowledgeably about this. I will continue to look for sources myself, not to prove myself right, but to prove am not making this up. I have nothing against Willie Dixon. He is a great songwriter and producer and the w!
orld of music owes him dearly. He also did some charity work on behalf of blues musicians. Here is the information from my source:

I'm not currently signed up on the harp-l so I can't post to the
list, but I occasionally look at the online archives, and I saw your
note about Dixon. And you are absolutely right, and the people who
are disagreeing with you are the ones who need to do their homework.
Dixon took credit, and received royalties, for composing many songs
that came from other sources. Easy examples are Red Rooster and
Spoonful, taken from Charlie Patton records, and Wang Dang Doodle,
listed from a 1930s record called Bull Dagger's Ball.

If you listen only to Dixon tell it, he wrote every great blues song
to come out of Chicago. If you listen to the people who actually
worked with him 'back in the day', as I have done in my over 30 years
hanging around and chronicling the blues scene here in Chicago, Dixon
was the biggest song thief in the history of blues. Stories abound
of him offering to use his clout to get people a session to record
their original material with Chess (or Cobra/Abco, who he also worked
for briefly in the '50s), with one of two outcomes: the resulting
record was released, but Dixon's name appeared on the record as
composer, or else the session was never released, but the songs later
turned up on Howlin' Wolf, Muddy, or whoever's record, with Dixon's
name listed as composer. This was the standard operating procedure,
and seemed to be accepted as the price one had to pay in order to get
hooked up with the prestigious Chess label. Composer royalties were
not looked at as a big deal then, but when bands like the Stones,
Zep, and others started recording these songs and selling millions of
records in the 1960s, there were a LOT of pissed of blues people in
Chicago who very much resented Dixon's business dealings, and never
forgave him.

Since Dixon was the most famous voice telling the inside story of the
classic era of Chicago blues, more people heard it and believed his
account as the 'true' account, and unfortunately the lesser-known
guys who felt they were taken advantage of never had their stories
heard. So most people believe the 'Dixon is the man' story these
days, but it's wise to remember that there are two sides to every
story.

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[Dan Berger]

, Dixon
> was the biggest song thief in the history of blues. Stories abound
> of him offering to use his clout to get people a session to record
> their original material with Chess (or Cobra/Abco, who he also worked
> for briefly in the '50s), with one of two outcomes: the resulting
> record was released, but Dixon's name appeared on the record as
> composer, or else the session was never released, but the songs later
> turned up on Howlin' Wolf, Muddy, or whoever's record, with Dixon's
> name listed as composer. This was the standard operating procedure,
> and seemed to be accepted as the price one had to pay in order to get
> hooked up with the prestigious Chess label. Composer royalties were
> not looked at as a big deal then, >
>
>

I'm sure this was (is) standard operating procedure---

sounds like Levon Helm's (who plays some harp {content}) gripe with Robbie
Robertson.

Dan

[Richard Hammersley]

The following link is not a vindication of WIllie Dixon - who surely
at the very least borrowed from others as blues players always did -
but an interesting article on the complexities of deciding the
boundaries of plagiarism.
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/02/0081387

"Bad artists copy. Great artists steal." Pablo Picasso.
http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/3500

Bob Dylan has always been a fantastic (and extremely open) example of
this.

Other interesting musical examples include the acrimonious lawsuit
over Procul Harum's "Whiter Shade of Pale": Does improvising an
opening lick and a couple of other bits constitute "composing a song?"
Apparently in law, yes it does (2006), or no it doesn't *(2008)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Whiter_Shade_of_Pale

Another example: Keith Richards helped Johnnie Johnson the pianist sue
Chuck Berry (unsuccessfully) because Johnson had contributed a lot to
the compositions.
http://slick.org/deathwatch/mailarchive/msg01712.html

One guesses Willie Dixon often contributed at this level to songs that
he was 'adapting'.

If one moves on to blues harmonica licks, then hasn't everyone
borrowed from everyone else? Like to my ears Whammer Jammer is a
pastiche put together from various Chicago blues licks. So who
composed Whammer Jammer? I bet several guys on harp-l have a list of
where Magic Dick got the licks.... Does that mean 15 composers or
something?

Actually, that was just sampling without a digital recorder! Of course
nowadays you have to pay for sampling.

You're right that in folk musics ownership of the composition rights
was unimportant until the advent of Rock and mass audiences relatively
recently. It is still a very complex issue. How many original changes
can be wrung from a 12 bar?

Actually, in the blues I enjoy people's blatant recycling of their OWN
successful tunes, with new lyrics, to generate new sales - For
instance Elmore James did Dust My Broom in how many versions?

Never happen today of course... It is just advancing age that makes me
think that every chart bound song sounds very similar to every other
one.

However, speaking as a poet rather than a musician, Willie Dixon,
thief or not, is one of only a handful of blues composers who were
capable of writing solid lyrics that comprise a coherent poetic
thought (whether these are adapted from others or not). Others include
Blind Willie McTell, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Robert Johnson, Big Bill
Broonzy, Memphis Minnie, Leroy Carr, Sonny Boy I, Sonny Boy II. Little
Walter. But the majority of blues singers are simply recycling
lyrics, often weakening them in the process.

For example:

Weak commonplace version:

Early one morning,
on my way to school,
met a nice looking schoolgirl,
made me forget my mamma's rule (standard blues verse; ooh er the boy's
been a bit naughty and is flirting)

Compared to amazing emotive version that perhaps originated the weaker
version:
When I was young
on my bigfoot way to school
met a nice looking brownskin
made me lose my mammie's rule (man he ain't going home at all, nor
making it to school neither)
Blind Lemon Jefferson, Low Down Mojo Blues
To make it more interesting, both sexual protagonists seem to be male,
which presumably would "lose your Mammie's rule" in early 1900s Texas
pretty quick.

Should I be correct in my reading, it also makes Blind Lemon's better
known song "Black Snake Moan" possibly about bisexuality, but enough
straying off topic.

Richard

On 24 Nov 2008, at 19:21, jcolb...@juno.com wrote:

> In my earlier statement about Willie Dixon claiming credit for songs

> he did not write, I assumed that this was commonly known. SNIP

Richard Hammersley
Grantshouse, Scottish Borders
http://www.last.fm/music/Richard+Hammersley
http://www.myspace.com/rhammersley
http://www.myspace.com/magpiesittingdown

[lil Buddha]

I think I need not reproduce Richard's most excellent e-mail. I would like
to say that it, especially with the Harpers link, is a most cogent account
of the process.
One should also factor in jealousy, hearsay and inaccurate recollection. I
am not taking sides regarding Willie Dixon. I do doubt, however, that the
matter is cut and dry. If one should decide to seriously study history, it
becomes apparent how subjective the whole thing is.
My favorite quote regarding this is "History isn't."

[Ken Deifik]

Song stealing in the Fifties, and before and since, was as common as
dirt. Credit "sharing" even moreso.

I worked for a company that bought the Starday/King publishing
catalog. Going through this enormous catalog I kept seeing the same name
appearing as a writer or co-writer on thousands of country and R&B songs,
many of them very big hits. I no longer remember that name, but this name
even appeared on the original contracts, as one of the writers, signature
and all. I finally ran into someone who had worked at King and he told me
that that was the pen name of the owner of the two companies, and he always
got the publisher's half and generally got half of the writer's royalty by
insisting on being listed under the fictitious name as the "co-writer."

We were re-copyrighting the entire catalog, song by song, to take advantage
of the then-new 1978 copyright laws. The catalog had a great deal of
material that was in fact old public domain folk songs. In those cases the
owner of the catalog had copyrighted those as sole writer, under his
fictitious name.

We re-copyrighted those, too.

There are four principles to stealing a song.
1. Back in the 50's, and going forward and backward, many singers who wrote
their own material had no idea that you got money when the records sold or
were played on radio and TV. In fact, many had no idea what the names in
the parenthesis on the record label were. They were hoping to make money
on record sales and on better pay for their live shows.
2. It's a penny business. The idea that it's a penny business hides the
fact that those pennies add up if you have a hit. So if someone else wants
the credit and the pennies, big deal. Right?
3. If the record company also owned the publishing company, and they almost
always did, you didn't get a fair accounting no matter WHO got credit. So
why bother fighting?
4. Shared credit, or stolen credit, was presented as a fait
accompli. Either you agree to this, or we aren't even going to put out the
record. Many artistes couldn't believe their luck at being recorded in the
first place. (Imagine if someone were making a documentary about blues
harmonica players. They said, "Your music can be in the movie, but you
will get no money from it ever, and we get to make money from it as long as
the copyright lasts." That couldn't happen, could it? Nobody would fall
for that, would they?)

Now, copyrighting folk songs is a very interesting species of -- is it
theivery? If the writer of a lyric or melody is long dead or obscured in
the mists of the past, why the hell not grant oneself the credit?, some
would argue. How the heck are you going to figure out who really wrote
Spoonful, especially if you are changing it all around and making it into a
commercial song anyway. Did Bo Diddley write Bo Diddley? Did he write
that rhythm? (He made both things special all over again. He took
composition credit, and then took the name as his own. Did he get paid
every nickel he had coming? Who knows?)

Here's a great twist on all this. Leiber and Stoller wrote Hound Dog for
Willy Mae Thornton, at the request of her producer Johnny Otis. Johnny
Otis informed them that the Duke/Peacock record label would be publishing
the song and that he'd be taking a third of the writer's credit and the
back-end. Leiber and Stoller agreed. What could they do?

But then the record came out and the song was credited to "Otis-Robey",
Robey being Don Robey, the Dallas gangster who owned the record
label. Leaving Leiber and Stoller off the credits turned out to be a
gigantic mistake on the part of Otis and Robey.

Leiber told me that he wanted to let it go, but that it really irked
Stoller, so they pursued a suit against Otis and Robey. Four years later
they won the suit, based on the idea that they had signed the contract when
they were minors. Both the writers' credit and the publishing reverted to
them, not long before Elvis Presley made the song one of the most valuable
copyrights in publishing history.

But here's where it even gets weirder. As the hipsters on this list
probably know, the original song is sung by a woman who is kicking a
free-loading gigolo out of her house. There is nothing about 'never caught
a rabbit' anywhere in there. It would have to be changed significantly in
order to make it a song a male would sing.

A year before they won back all rights to Hound Dog, a band named Freddie
Bell and the Bellboys made the adaptations needed to allow them to sing
it. They changed the melody, the length of the lines, they changed just
about everything except for that magical first line. They made a record of
it, and that got them work in Las Vegas as a lounge act, and that's where
Elvis heard their version, which is the one he recorded.

The song was as different from the original as Willie Dixon's Spoonful was
from Charley Patton's. But Freddie Bell's record label credited the song
to Leiber and Stoller, and so did Elvis' label, RCA. It happens that
Leiber and Stoller were probably the greatest songwriters of the era, and
they went on to write more than 30 more songs for him because of Hound Dog.

So fighting for their rights, and owning them even when the song was
significantly altered, made Leiber and Stoller a pile of money.

Now, whenever we get into a money discussion on Harp-l someone chimes in
and says "I don't care about any of this, why can't music just be about the
fun of playing music?"

I agree with you whole-heartedly. Mind if I take your publishing?

********************************************************************************
Hear Ken Deifik's Song Collection "Music For Small Audience"
at http://www.HarmonicaGuitar.com
********************************************************************************

[Joe and Cass Leone]

On Nov 25, 2008, at 12:41 PM, Ken Deifik wrote:
> Freddie Bell and the Bellboys

Holy cats, are YOU old.....or what p.s. FASCINATING
smo-j

[Ken Deifik]

At 09:58 AM 11/25/2008, you wrote:
>Holy cats, are YOU old.....or what p.s. FASCINATING

Not as old as you, ol' pal, but pretty durned old. Old enough that I wear
a hat so as to make serious esthetic improvements and a better overall
impression.

Not that it helps.

In any case, I was a wee one when the Freddie Bell story played out, and
got it from story books my mammy read to me while sitting on her knee, next
to the banjo, which I found itchy.

The 'getting the copyright back from Otis and Robey' part I got directly
from Leiber, though I think it has since been told publicly.

He told me a bunch of cool tales that haven't been told publicly, while
riding around Manhattan in his Lancia. Those stories will wind up in my
tell-all memoir, should I ever do enough significant stuff to merit someone
paying me to write a memoir.

I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Rob Paparozzi]

Excellent info Ken.....really enjoyed the post lot to be said about the
BIZ...OMG!!
best,
Rob P

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Deifik" <kenn...@roadrunner.com>
To: <har...@harp-l.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Willie Dixon Controversy

> Song stealing in the Fifties, and before and since, was as common as dirt.
> Credit "sharing" even moreso.
>
> I worked for a company that bought the Starday/King publishing catalog.
> Going through this enormous catalog I kept seeing the same name appearing
> as a writer or co-writer on thousands of country and R&B songs,

_______________________________________________

[harmo...@comcast.net]

POP ! Thats the sound of my bubble bursting. Istill like Willie,though.

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "jcolb...@juno.com" <jcolb...@juno.com>

> In my earlier statement about Willie Dixon claiming credit for songs he did not

> hanging around and chronicling the blues scene here in Chicago, Dixon

> was the biggest song thief in the history of blues. Stories abound
> of him offering to use his clout to get people a session to record
> their original material with Chess (or Cobra/Abco, who he also worked
> for briefly in the '50s), with one of two outcomes: the resulting
> record was released, but Dixon's name appeared on the record as
> composer, or else the session was never released, but the songs later
> turned up on Howlin' Wolf, Muddy, or whoever's record, with Dixon's
> name listed as composer. This was the standard operating procedure,
> and seemed to be accepted as the price one had to pay in order to get
> hooked up with the prestigious Chess label. Composer royalties were

> not looked at as a big deal then, but when bands like the Stones,
> Zep, and others started recording these songs and selling millions of
> records in the 1960s, there were a LOT of pissed of blues people in
> Chicago who very much resented Dixon's business dealings, and never
> forgave him.
>
> Since Dixon was the most famous voice telling the inside story of the
> classic era of Chicago blues, more people heard it and believed his
> account as the 'true' account, and unfortunately the lesser-known
> guys who felt they were taken advantage of never had their stories
> heard. So most people believe the 'Dixon is the man' story these
> days, but it's wise to remember that there are two sides to every
> story.
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Click for free quote on refinancing your mortgage.
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/PnY6rbupls0ms8u5jMCnI1G2zTJg1JIz6BdR
> Ob4XxnGJ9k4YwpnPq/
>

[Ken Deifik]

At 11:39 AM 11/25/2008, you wrote:
>POP ! Thats the sound of my bubble bursting. Istill like Willie,though.

Keep that bubble intact. There's a whole lot of music that wouldn't have
gotten made without Willie Dixon. He was a great producer, studio
musician, and alot of those songs are either his for real, or he did the
adaptation that we all love now. He's the bass player on most of those
classic Chuck Berry records, for goodness sake.

You can hear it in the Big Three Trio stuff, too - he understood what the
audience wanted and how to shape what they got.

You can say this about very few people: without him, no rock and roll.

[jcolb...@juno.com]

Me to

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[David Fertig]

My sense is that Willie Dixon was a product of the recording industry once he got into it.  Before and throughout, he was a musician's musician.  Even though he didn't play harp.

Nobody denies Dixon was prolific as producer, composer, performer, promoter.  And many, including some whom he allegedly got the edge on, credit Willie Dixon as a generally kind fellow to most, if a task horse, a champion of the blues and its peformers, and a tireless worker. Also a sharp negotiator.

He gave much of himself, helping others along and often taking no credit for his work.  Also, he apparently got credit for others' work more than a few times.  Even if Chess et al didn't basically force that upon Willie, I don't particularly fault him for it, insofare as every musican in that milieu constantly signed conflicting contracts, changed names to steal or con gigs, etc., etc.  I suspect it was a scramble for survival. 

indeed, Willie Dixon made a decent living out of it all, while protecting himself from Chess and other labels, also while helping  himself, but also encouraging others to preserve their publishing and other rights.  Sometimes successfully, according to him and others. 

Isn't it simplistic to cast Dixon in stark good/evil terms?  Sure.  If he took publishing rights to traditional songs, he was neither the first nor last, and any money preserved for artists from often-greedy labels is to be relished.  if he took others' credits, they should be restored.

Anyway, of all the things he did, one thing in my view stands him head and shoulders above so many others of that era who sought to promote the blues:

The American Folk Blues Festival tours throught the 60's. 

Willie Dixon didn't invent the AFBF, but without his participation it is unlikely they would have succeeded at all, let alone succeed in reviving - dramatically reviving, all over the world, - the blues.

Without that, most of us traditional style blues harp players would have less of an audience, and less of an inspiration. 

Willie, you ain't no saint, but you performed some miracles!

-Dave Fertig

[Icem...@aol.com]

Back in the day before radio play headed towards a nationwide awareness of
artists, Rice Miller took the name Sonny Boy II with the hope to ride up on the
coattails of an already established name - Sonny Boy Williamson. He got gigs
because of the name recognition. I don't have the exact detailed story
regarding this, but do remember reading that Sonny Boy I didn't find out about
this until Sonny Boy II started getting some radio play using the name - and
Sonny Boy I was none too happy.

History is rife with stories like this - taking something that didn't belong
to an artist and making it his own without giving proper credit. Hey, maybe
those old days were as hard as our new faltering economy in regards to making
a living, so people did "what they had to do" in order to survive.

Same could be said of "The Iceman" moniker. It is trademarked by the soul
singer out of Chicago, Jerry Butler, who calls himself The Ice Man. Although he
splits it into two words, I'm quite sure I'll hear from his lawyers if one
day I make a hit record using that name.

Since I am a poor historian and can not quote my source on the Sonny Boy
story, take this remembrance with a grain of salt or hopefully another on the
"L" may have more specifics.


In a message dated 11/25/2008 3:26:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kenn...@roadrunner.com writes:

At 11:39 AM 11/25/2008, you wrote:
>POP ! Thats the sound of my bubble bursting. Istill like Willie,though.

Keep that bubble intact. There's a whole lot of music that wouldn't have
gotten made without Willie Dixon. He was a great producer, studio
musician, and alot of those songs are either his for real, or he did the
adaptation that we all love now. He's the bass player on most of those
classic Chuck Berry records, for goodness sake.

You can hear it in the Big Three Trio stuff, too - he understood what the
audience wanted and how to shape what they got.

You can say this about very few people: without him, no rock and roll.

_______________________________________________

Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org
Har...@harp-l.org
http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l

**************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks,
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[harmo...@comcast.net]

Don't forget Albert 'Iceman' Collins. I played harp with him a couple of times. Being from Philly, I like to think of Jerry Butler as one of our own. Rice Miller has to be one of the most influencial American blues musicians in England in the early 60's. J.B.
P.S. this Harp-l makes me think of one of Alecks songs...."Little Village'......you know the rest.

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Icem...@aol.com

> Back in the day before radio play headed towards a nationwide awareness of
> artists, Rice Miller took the name Sonny Boy II with the hope to ride up on the
> coattails of an already established name - Sonny Boy Williamson. He got gigs
> because of the name recognition. I don't have the exact detailed story
> regarding this, but do remember reading that Sonny Boy I didn't find out about
> this until Sonny Boy II started getting some radio play using the name - and
> Sonny Boy I was none too happy.
>
> History is rife with stories like this - taking something that didn't belong
> to an artist and making it his own without giving proper credit. Hey, maybe
> those old days were as hard as our new faltering economy in regards to making
> a living, so people did "what they had to do" in order to survive.
>
> Same could be said of "The Iceman" moniker. It is trademarked by the soul
> singer out of Chicago, Jerry Butler, who calls himself The Ice Man. Although he
> splits it into two words, I'm quite sure I'll hear from his lawyers if one
> day I make a hit record using that name.
>
> Since I am a poor historian and can not quote my source on the Sonny Boy
> story, take this remembrance with a grain of salt or hopefully another on the
> "L" may have more specifics.
>

[Garry Hodgson]

Icem...@aol.com wrote:

> Back in the day before radio play headed towards a nationwide awareness of
> artists, Rice Miller took the name Sonny Boy II with the hope to
> ride up on the
> coattails of an already established name - Sonny Boy Williamson. He got gigs
> because of the name recognition.

i've read that as well. though i can't imagine anyone would try that today.

----
Jason Ricci II
ga...@snarkus.com

[Rick Dempster]

The music biz was far more regional back then; that's why he could get away with it. I don't think he called himself Sonny Boy II, by the way. That's a concoction of the largely UK/European blues revival scene of the 'sixties. I think he just called himself 'Sonny Boy Williamson' straight up.
RD

>>> Garry Hodgson <ha...@snarkus.com> 26/11/2008 14:56 >>>

[Bradford Trainham]

In Robert Palmer's book, Deep Blues... (Not Robert Palmer the musician), one
of the sources he interviewed speculated that Rice Miller was coerced into
adopting the name SonnyBoy Williamson during his run with the King Biscuit
Time show.
We'll probably never know for sure how that all got started as the ones who
could tell us are gone now, but if this thread establishes anything at all
as being true, it suggests that the route to fame was a very different path
than the one we'd be taking now, if we were famous ...
Brad Trainham

-----Original Message-----
From: harp-l-...@harp-l.org [mailto:harp-l-...@harp-l.org] On Behalf
Of harmo...@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 8:48 PM
To: Har...@harp-l.org
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Willie Dixon Controversy

[Tall Paul]

> randy singer wrote:
> <A few years ago a tree fell in the forest with no sound
> when I
> <released my E-book entitled HARMONICA PLAYERS GUIDE TO
> GETTING GIGS. I
> <changed the title to a more general MUSICIANS HANDBOOK
> book but the
> <intent and focus is for harmonica players. There was
> little response
> <to my handbook back then from harp-L.

I would also like to chime in that this is an excellent source for anyone trying to make it in music and a lot of the info is about making it in life. I found out about this free book from Randy himself when I met him at SPAH in Milwaukee 2007. He practices what he preaches and since I met him I've found him to be a very positive, professional and encouraging person at all times. Smo-Joe is right--tons of personality there! Read his book, and buy some of his music or catch his gigs if you can. I hope to see him at the next SPAH.

Paul

[James Sterett]

I can't recall if it was the Deep Blues book, but I read a story about Robert Jr. Lockwood and Sonny Boy Williamson getting locked up in jail for something minor (having nowhere to go) down South. The story went that the jailers gave them their instruments to play while locked up, people would gather outside the jail cell window and throw money through the bars, then Robert Jr and Sonny Boy would split the take with the jailers. I saw Robert Jr. Lockwood at a small place called the Turning Point in Piermont, NY several years ago and asked him about that story. Without hesitation, he said something along the lines of, that was all made up just to sell the book. I'm cynical, it's true. Meetings like that only strengthen my cynicism. I figure I believe about 10% of what is presented by people trying to SELL anything that is claimed to be "fact."

Jim.
www.myspace.com/mulegroove

>>> "Bradford Trainham" <bradford...@sbcglobal.net> 11/26/2008 2:11 AM >>>

[James]

I can't recall if it was the Deep Blues book, but I read a story about Robert Jr. Lockwood and Sonny Boy Williamson getting locked up in jail for something minor (having nowhere to go) down South. The story went that the jailers gave them their instruments to play while locked up, people would gather outside the jail cell window and throw money through the bars, then Robert Jr and Sonny Boy would split the take with the jailers. I saw Robert Jr. Lockwood at a small place called the Turning Point in Piermont, NY several years ago and asked him about that story. Without hesitation, he said something along the lines of, that was all made up just to sell the book. I'm cynical, it's true. Meetings like that only strengthen my cynicism. I figure I believe about 10% of what is presented by people trying to SELL anything that is claimed to be.

There are so many many stories. I remember talking to Robert Jr at Buddy Guy's Legends in Chicago. We brought up the story of the Crossroads and the Devil and he went into a rage. He couldn't believe how educated people could believe such BS.

This is not just the Blues. Larry Adler's book "It isn't Necessarily So" contains numerous tales, none of which can be collaborated by a third party: His meeting with Al Capone in a Speak Easy on a Friday Night. His affair with Ingrid Bergman are my favorites. I remember well a evening at the Garden State Harmonica Club November meeting when I had a chance to talk about these tales with some of the old Vaudeville folks. Nobody believed any of them.

What harm is done? Is Robert Johnson less a genius because of this. Is Robert Lockwood Jr, less a musician because of this? Is Larry Adler less a musician because of this? I think not. I suppose there is a reason for these stories and "Deep Blues" by the late Robert Palmer is still a great book and I recommend it.

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[Ken Deifik]

James wrote:
>This is not just the Blues. Larry Adler's book "It isn't Necessarily So"
>contains numerous tales, none of which can be collaborated by a third
>party: His meeting with Al Capone in a Speak Easy on a Friday Night. His
>affair with Ingrid Bergman are my favorites. I remember well a evening at
>the Garden State Harmonica Club November meeting when I had a chance to
>talk about these tales with some of the old Vaudeville folks. Nobody
>believed any of them.

One of the best things about Adler's book is that he starts with a story
and then tells someone else's memory of the same incident, which is
entirely the opposite. A brilliant way to begin a memoir. A disclaimer of
all memory.

I'll tell you one that is similar. Jerry Leiber (again with Leiber, can't
I drop another name?) (I once met Winslow Yerxa) was very big on singers
with distinctive styles, as you might imagine. He told me that when Jeff
Barry and Ellie Greenwich started working with Neil Diamond (they were
working for Jerry) Diamond was a demo singer who could sing in anybody's
style, but had none of his own. Jerry said it took them a year to develop
a distinctive style for Neil Diamond.

A few years after Jerry told me this I mentioned it to a friend who
engineered at the top demo studio in the 60's before becoming a top master
engineer and producer. He told me that the truth was just the opposite,
that Neil Diamond had such a distinctive personal style when he arrived on
the scene as a demo singer that he often sang demos better than the artists
they were intended for. He loved working with Neil Diamond on demos.

Now, both Jerry Leiber and my engineer pal have unbelieveably good ears for
such things. I have tried for a long time to reconcile the two points of
view - they are talking about the exact same years, for instance. Neither
of these cats had any reason to tell me anything other than what they
thought was the truth. They were both friends and admirers of Diamond.

So there are alot of stories about who wrote what blues song, who adapted
it, what 'writing a song' meant to blues singers back in the 20's, what it
meant to other blues singers in the 30's. Paul Oliver pointed out that
Blind Boy Fuller's 'Cat Man Blues' was descended from the English Child
ballad "Our Gudeman."

I loved learning, in this thread, that somebody other than Rice Miller may
have made him use the name Sonny Boy Williamson, as I had always imagined
he came up with that scam himself. I'll bet that story NEVER gets
resolved. There's too much truth to go around, and not enough.

>What harm is done? Is Robert Johnson less a genius because of this. Is
>Robert Lockwood Jr, less a musician because of this? Is Larry Adler less a
>musician because of this? I think not.

Question for the group. Back in the 60's, wasn't Robert Lockwood Jr
referred to as Robert Junior Lockwood, the Robert Junior referring to his
claim that Robert Johnson treated him like a son?

[James Sterett]

Ken asks: "Question for the group. Back in the 60's, wasn't Robert Lockwood Jr

referred to as Robert Junior Lockwood, the Robert Junior referring to his
claim that Robert Johnson treated him like a son?"

It was always my understanding that, like you say, Robert Lockwood became Robert Junior because of his father son like relationship with Robert Johnson. The Robert Lockwood Jr may have just been started thinking that the Junior part was put in the middle mistakenly... guess we'd have to ask Robert Lockwood's mother for the definitive answer on wether he was a Robert Lockwood Jr. or not.

Jim.

>>> Ken Deifik <kenn...@roadrunner.com> 11/27/08 3:56 PM >>>

[Bradford Trainham]

There is such a story in the Deep Blues book, but Palmer was pretty honest
about citing legend as such and he too suggested that Robert Junior was a
little less than patient with lots of the legends that go around,
particularly those that connected him to Robert Johnson.
(Harp content?)
There's a good "legend" in the Deep Blues book which places Robbie Robertson
and the band playing music with Rice Miller a few weeks before he passed
away in 1965.

[Bill Hines]

Robertson and his band mates recite the story of meeting and playing
with an old blues harp player all night and drinking and him spitting
blood into a can and so forth, and then later finding it was Sonny Boy
Williamson II (Rice Miller) in the movie The Last Waltz. I always held
it with a bit of skepticism though. Not that those boys didn't have a
lot of adventures. Read the bio and story of the band by Levon Helm,
fantastic read.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: harp-l-...@harp-l.org [mailto:harp-l-...@harp-l.org] On
Behalf Of Bradford Trainham
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 4:52 PM
To: 'James Sterett'; harmo...@comcast.net; Har...@harp-l.org
Subject: RE: [Harp-L] Willie Dixon Controversy

There is such a story in the Deep Blues book, but Palmer was pretty
honest about citing legend as such and he too suggested that Robert
Junior was a little less than patient with lots of the legends that go
around, particularly those that connected him to Robert Johnson. (Harp
content?) There's a good "legend" in the Deep Blues book which places
Robbie Robertson and the band playing music with Rice Miller a few weeks
before he passed away in 1965.
Brad Trainham

[Ken Deifik]

>There's a good "legend" in the Deep Blues book which places Robbie Robertson
>and the band playing music with Rice Miller a few weeks before he passed
>away in 1965.

Levon Helm also tells the story. He said that Sonny Boy was spitting blood
into a cup the whole time they played. (He was tubercular, that's what
killed him I guess.)

He also said the local cracker cops showed up and told them to get out and
not visit nor congregate with Black people again.

Bob Dylan wrote that he got to jam with Sonny Boy and John Lee Hooker in a
hotel room in NYC in the early 60's, and that Sonny Boy told him he played
too fast.

K

[James]

As an Amateur Musician and a student of Science I have come to the conclusion that the level of verification you "prove a therapy or a nutritional supplement" is not the same as validating a blues story.and/or song. They shouldn't be.

Please let me try to give you an example. Lets look at Blues/Folk Songs like "Stagger Lee" and
"Railroad Bill" Did these people exist ? Was there such a story and did it happen the way the songs go? How could you prove that?
Are there researchers out there who can look up the time searching through police records and death records to determine if Stagger Lee and Railroad Bill existed and the events outlined in the songs did happen?
Again is it going to change anyone's opinions of the songs? There are great songs and lets keep it at that.
In the Video Documentary "Search for Robert Johnson" researcher Burton "Mac" McCormick actually uncovers Robert Johnson's Death Certificate. The document proves nothing as there is no doctor's signature.
We still don't know where he is buried. There are three possible places. Again, what did we prove.
The roots of the blues can be traced back to the "Girots" of West Africa who told stories in song.These stories were part of an oral history and they were embellished and perhaps exaggerated. Its out tradition folks be proud of it!

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[Icem...@aol.com]

I believe the ol' blues stories are very similar to the Bar-B-Q stories - if
you get involved in the wonderfully wacky world of competition Bar-B-Q, you
will find that "tall tales" are part of this culture and part of the fun. It
is the outsiders that tend to take things too seriously.


In a message dated 12/2/2008 8:49:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
wasa...@hvc.rr.com writes:

As an Amateur Musician and a student of Science I have come to the
conclusion that the level of verification you "prove a therapy or a nutritional
supplement" is not the same as validating a blues story.and/or song. They
shouldn't be.

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