[Harp-L] Brass vs Stainless Steel
jand...@comcast.net
The link below lists several metals but not brass. I always thought brass to be a softer metal,
but does it's pliability make it easier to bend? Stainless steel seems stronger but is that a
good thing in a harp? Any engineers want to chime in? I'm in over my head.
http://www.materialsengineer.com/A-Metallurgy.htm
I suppose one could do their own experiments. Buy an 'A' of thr MBDL & the
S-1847 and see where you are in a year with the tuning.
Of course, we are going to get into variabilities. Maybe if Seydal makes such claims,
they should have the white paper to back it up...unless trials are underway.
Drats I just switched over to MBDL too!
--
James Day
www.jameswday.com
_______________________________________________
Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org
Har...@harp-l.org
http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l
David Payne
When Niama media bought Seydel out in 2004, the factory was like "hey, um... we have this stainless steel we've been playing around with for the last 40 years or whatever." The 1847 didn't debut until 2007. 2004-2007 was some intense R&D after God knows how many decades Karl R&D'd it on his own before that. They know what it is capable of.
Players experiences are relevant and I'm as interested as anybody in the properties of these metals and I am looking very forward to the discussion. But there is some limit to what we can gleam from the properties of the metal itself, because there are uncontrolled variables --- it is not a brass reed that has been made out of steel. It is a reed that has been engineered specifically for steel. Also there are variables of force.
I have blown out one stainless steel reed. It was a Big Six six blow I tuned down with a file two steps for some alternate tuning. Then, I tuned it up two steps... there wasn't much metal left after that. It finally went a few weeks later when I was doing a Jimmie Rodgers yodel on it.
The one I have actually been playing, the C, since April 2007 is still in perfect tune. I usually have to tune after three months, blow reeds out in a year, so I'm not a very hard player.
The Seydel claim is "more durable."
______________________
Dave Payne Sr.
Elk River Harmonicas
www.elkriverharmonicas.com
lil Buddha
many metals exhibit the effects of cumulative stress, but steel does not.
Meaning that brass and bronze WILL eventually fail with repeated load no
matter how small the load. Steel, theoretically at least, will never fail if
loading is kept below a particular level.
What am I missing?
Of course, the key to reed longevity whatever the material is do not use
excessive force.
Vern Smith
Visit my harmonica website www.Hands-Free-Chromatic.7p.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "lil Buddha" <ltlb...@gmail.com>
To: "Harp-l" <har...@harp-l.org>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Brass vs Stainless Steel
>I am not a metallurgist, but from what I have read here is how it works;
> many metals exhibit the effects of cumulative stress, but steel does not.
> Meaning that brass and bronze WILL eventually fail with repeated load no
> matter how small the load. Steel, theoretically at least, will never fail
> if
> loading is kept below a particular level.
>
> What am I missing?
Only the technical terms that would make your explanation less meaningful to
most readers.
"Cumulative stress" = metal fatigue, the gradual propagation of tiny cracks
that eventually lead to failure.
"Particular level" = fatigue limit.
Even in copper-alloy (brass and bronze), fatigue is non-linear; i.e. if you
reduce the stress level by 10%, you get more than a 10% increase in the
number of cycles to failure.
As you point out, the properties of SS do support the expectation of much
longer fatigue life. Knowing harp players, I predict that more robust reeds
will result in more stressful playing. You can't win. ;o)
Vern
Vern Smith
----- Original Message -----
From: <jand...@comcast.net>
To: <har...@harp-l.org>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 6:32 AM
Subject: [Harp-L] Brass vs Stainless Steel
> ..... I always thought brass to be a softer metal,
> but does it's pliability make it easier to bend? Stainless steel seems
> stronger but is that a
> good thing in a harp? Any engineers want to chime in? I'm in over my
> head.
Definitions:
"Stress" refers to the amount of force (per unit area) applied to a piece of
metal.
"Strain" refers to the stretch (per unit of length) as it deforms.
When you stress a piece of metal, up to a point called the "elastic limit,"
then release it, it will return to its original shape. Below the elastic
limit, strain is proportional to stress. The elasticity of a metal is the
ratio of stress divided by strain. Steel has a higher elasticity than brass,
i.e. it takes more force to get a given amount of bending. Some steels have
a stress level (lower than the elastic limit) called the "fatigue limit".
Below that stress, you can exercise the metal for an unlimited number of
cycles without fatigue failure.
If you stress a metal beyond the elastic limit, it enters a plastic zone
where strain is no longer proportional to stress and it will not return to
its original shape. Its behavior in thiis zone is described by its
ductility. Ductility is roughly the amount of strain it will take before it
breaks. The opposite of ductility is brittleness. Brass is more ductile than
steel. Glass is an example of extremely low ductility and gold is an
example of extremely high ductility.
When we change the gap of a reed, we bend it beyond its elastic limit so it
will not return to its original shape but will assume the new gap.
Beryllium copper is a very elastic spring material with high resistance to
fatigue. However, it is very brittle and easy to break when re-gapping.
Because of its higher elasticity, a SS reed will be thinner near the rivet
where it bends than a brass reed of equivalent pitch and responsiveness.
However, because SS is less dense than brass, it will be thicker at the tip
than the equivalent brass reed. If each is reed is designed to have the
same pitch and responsiveness, there will be no perceptible difference in
tone between reeds of different metals.
Metallurgists may chide me for omitting some exceptions and qualifications.
The rest of you may chide me for getting too technical.
Vern
Björn Sigurdsson
brass, I get this idea of a reed that you make considerably thinner on the
middle and a bit thinner at the base - so it reminds of lying B in a shape.
My idea is: If I blow not so hard just the outer part will vibrate giving me
a tone, but when I blow with more pressure the whole reed while start to
vibrate, giving me a lower tone while the higher tone is still sounding.
What do you theory guys think, will it work in theory?
regards
Björn Sigurdsson
2008/9/5 Vern Smith <jev...@fea.net>
--
Björn Sigurdsson
Kompanigatan 20
58758 Linköping
+46 706 897257
Vern Smith
----- Original Message -----
From: Björn Sigurdsson
To: Vern Smith
Cc: jand...@comcast.net ; har...@harp-l.org
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Brass vs Stainless Steel
> Hi, when talking about that that steel reeds are thinner at the base than
> brass, I get this idea of a reed that you make considerably thinner on the
> middle and a bit thinner at the base - so it reminds of lying B in a
> shape. My idea is: If I blow not so hard just the outer part will vibrate
> giving me a tone, but when I blow with more pressure the whole reed while
> start to vibrate, giving me a lower tone while the higher tone is still
> sounding.
> What do you theory guys think, will it work in theory?
Short answer...no.
Long answer: Harmonica reeds normally have one mode of vibration. You are
describing a reed with more than one mode of vibration. When this happens
in real life, the reed squeals and makes horrible sounds..e.g. certain
overblown Lee Oscar reeds. Although the steel reed is thinner, the metal is
"stronger" so that the overall stiffness and the behavior of the reed in
vibration is exactly the same an equivalent brass reed.
You cannot just make a reed any shape you choose. There are the design
constraints of width, length, pitch, and stiffness/responsiveness. There is
also stress distribution. You want to spread out the bending so that it
does not occur at one thin place and overstress the metal.
Vern
Joe and Cass Leone
On Sep 5, 2008, at 7:06 PM, Vern Smith wrote:
>
> You cannot just make a reed any shape you choose. There are the
> design constraints of width, length, pitch, and stiffness/
> responsiveness. There is also stress distribution. You want to
> spread out the bending so that it does not occur at one thin place
> and overstress the metal.
>
> Vern
Not in the least trying to be argumentative here Vern and all you
other fellows, and believe you me, I have no reason to doubt your
combined expertise on these matters...TODAY. But something has been
bothering me over the years. In fact several things. One of which is:
Do you think the people/person/entity ? who originally came up with
the harmonica considered ANY of these things?
Me? 'I' think they looked at music boxes and trialed and errored
until they came up with a workable prototype. MY suspicion is that
they copied the Chinese.
Another is: Does ANYONE think that this business about tuning was
really as involved as everyone is making it out to BE?. Me? 'I' think
that they originally tuned the same way an organ is tuned. What's
THAT tuning? I don't know.
I feel like the proverbial neanderthal Geico caveman sitting here on
my lanai with my sabre toothed kitty, sipping on a Mojito. I mean,
you guys are SO far over the rainbow in advanced thinking, I feel
like an absolute dunce. I pick up a spl-20 and I play it. I have NO
idea of what kind of tuning it is. If it starts to sound sour, I take
an emory board and give it a touch up. If the slides stick on my
chromos. I clean them. If a windsaver buzzes, I change it.
When I was a kid, we didn't have any of this. I think everyone is
over thinking this. I think people are taking something that worked
in the FIRST place, and trying to justify WHY it works. I mean, I
like explanations as well as the next guy, but some of this stuff is
way deep and (frankly) over my head.
Now here's what I found out about steel. I once made a reed from a
Schick copper clad steel razor blade, and while I left the bottom
alone, I had to shave the top so much that you had to keep chap stick
on it to keep it from rusting. It was fine as long as you played it,
but let it alone for a week or two and the reed froze up. (edges?)
Same thing happened with a Gillette super blue blade. Then the
Wilkinson sword stainless. It DIDN't freeze up but I had to thin the
reed so much to get it to sound on normal human pressure and not
breath from a wooly mamouth, that the reed eventually failed. It was
LESS than paper thin. In fact, I sliced my finger working with it. It
was taking me 2 1/2 hours (or more) to make-seat-tune these reeds.
Conclusion: I'm not trying to cause trouble here, but I would have to
study..really really study a harmonica before I plunked down my
money. It's not that I'm cheap, it's not that I'm poor. I'm merely a
pessimist. I'm not trying to blow my own horn here, but I have tried
everything and would have written a repair book if it had ever
entered my mind. All I see when I read the current stuff is the same
stuff I have been doing for years. In fact, I have procedures that
still haven't been revealed.
smo-joe (aka Obese Harpo)
Vern Smith
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe and Cass Leone" <le...@ewol.com>
To: "Vern Smith" <jev...@fea.net>
Cc: <har...@harp-l.com>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Brass vs Stainless Steel
> Not in the least trying to be argumentative here Vern and all you other
> fellows, and believe you me, I have no reason to doubt your combined
> expertise on these matters...TODAY. But something has been bothering me
> over the years. In fact several things. One of which is:
>
> Do you think the people/person/entity ? who originally came up with the
> harmonica considered ANY of these things?
> Me? 'I' think they looked at music boxes and trialed and errored until
> they came up with a workable prototype. MY suspicion is that they copied
> the Chinese.
Knowing some theory for designing a machine is like having a map for making
a trip. You may eventually get to your destination by trial-and-error
journeying around but with gas over $4 per gallon, you may prefer to find
the most direct route on your map.
> Another is: Does ANYONE think that this business about tuning was really
> as involved as everyone is making it out to BE?. Me? 'I' think that they
> originally tuned the same way an organ is tuned. What's THAT tuning? I
> don't know.
About 130 years ago, Hermann Helmholtz devoted a whole chapter (60 pages of
fine print) of his book on musical acoustics, "On the Sensations of Tone"
to temperaments. He doesn't even mention a harmonica.
> I feel like the proverbial neanderthal Geico caveman sitting here on
> my lanai with my sabre toothed kitty, sipping on a Mojito. I mean, you
> guys are SO far over the rainbow in advanced thinking, I feel like an
> absolute dunce.
You bring a different but valuable point of view to the forum. If we all
knew the same things, we wouldn't have anything to discuss.
> ................I mean, I like explanations as well as the next guy, but
> some of this stuff is way deep and (frankly) over my head.
I suspect that it is lack of interest more than lack of ability to
understand. I once quizzed a failing high school student about a motorcycle
that quickly passed through an intersection two blocks away. He knew the
make, model, engine displacement, drive train details, etc. because
motorcycles interested him and his schoolwork did not.
> In fact, I have procedures that still haven't been revealed.
IF they are not making you rich, this is the place and now is the time!
;o
Vern
Visit my harmonica website www.Hands-Free-Chromatic.7p.com
Vern Smith
Joe and Cass Leone
On Sep 6, 2008, at 12:34 AM, Vern Smith wrote:
>
> About 130 years ago, Hermann Helmholtz devoted a whole chapter (60
> pages of fine print) of his book on musical acoustics, "On the
> Sensations of Tone" to temperaments. He doesn't even mention a
> harmonica.
Ok, sounds like about 1878. Like 50 years after the harmonica was
'supposedly' invented.
>> .............I mean, I like explanations as well as the next guy,
>> but some of this stuff is way deep and (frankly) over my head.
>
> I suspect that it is lack of interest more than lack of ability to
> understand.
Bingo, after careful thought, you're right....as usual. :)
> I once quizzed a failing high school student about a motorcycle
> that quickly passed through an intersection two blocks away. He
> knew the make, model, engine displacement, drive train details,
> etc. because motorcycles interested him and his schoolwork did not.
Bingo... again............you win............a cookie
smo-joe (aka James Polyester)
>
> Vern
> Visit my harmonica website www.Hands-Free-Chromatic.7p.com
>
>
> !DSPAM:5614,48c2085030504140817901!