Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Holding Developer Accountable

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Geo

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Jul 21, 2009, 8:59:41 PM7/21/09
to HarmonyFL
This is a continuation of the 2/20/2009 post by the same name (
http://tinyurl.com/mpbt46 ):

Dave, it's been almost 3 years since Bob Geimer (Starwood
VP responsible for Harmony) wrote that "A new permanent
equestrian facility is currently in the conceptual design
phase based upon the recommendations of three separate
studies recently completed." How have you followed-up with
either Bob Geimer or Bob Evans on this? Please list each
communication between you and the developer on this topic.

Dave has decided not to answer this question so I will give it a try.
If anyone knows better, please speak up.

Since it has been clearly demonstrated that Dave, Kerul and the others
haven't expended any effort to open up the Harmony Horse Amenity to
other residents, it's pretty obvious now that they didn't exert
themselves communicating with the powers-that-be either.

This begs a few more questions though. What is the most effective way
to communicate with these Starwood folks? How can they be held
accountable for what they've done here (or what they have failed to
do)?

To answer the first question, I would suggest that all of you horse
folks (ie. especially those currently benefiting from the developer's
largesse) start attending CDD meetings and HOA meetings. Yes, we know
that HOA meetings are not really about Harmony amenities, but so what!

Get out there and speak up about this issue at every public meeting
you can. It does not matter what Bob Evans or anyone else thinks is
appropriate at these meetings. What matters is that people show that
they care about the issues. Show that you care that the developer has
lied to us repeatedly over the years about this and many other
amenities in Harmony.

What matters is that we had a budding horse amenity in Harmony that
was heavily advertised then yanked away (from most of us). What
matters is that people show that Starwood Capital and other billion
dollar companies can't get away with this anymore.

Write letters to Shad Tome and to Bob Geimer. Don't bother with Bob
Evans (He's a waste of your time and effort). I would also suggest
that you write to Barry Sternlicht. He's the Chairman and CEO of
Starwood Capital. Tell Mr. Sternlicht about the damage that Bob Evans
has done here. Ask if Mr. Sternlicht can fix it. I have not written to
Mr. Sternlicht yet myself, but I expect to soon.

While you're at it, you might as well write letters to all of the
directors of Starwood Capital, just in case Mr. Sternlicht doesn't
read his own mail. Here is the Starwood website:

http://www.StarwoodCapital.com

To send an email to any of these Starwood people, use his or her last
name followed by the first letter of the first name, then append
@Starwood.com .

In your letters to Starwood, remind them that there are already horses
in Harmony. Let them know that only 6 residents have horses on 120
acres of land in Harmony, land dedicated to that purpose. Remind them
that this has been going on for more than 3 years now. It's been going
on after everyone else in Harmony was informed by Bob Geimer himself
(in writing) that planning for a full equestrian facility was already
in the works, an equestrian facility that would be open to everyone.
That claim was also made more than 3 years ago. Ask them why 120 acres
is not sufficient for dozens of horses. Ask them if the words of
Starwood people mean anything at all.

After that, consider writing letters to the editors of the major
newspapers in the cities that Starwood has headquarters:

Greenwich, CT
Washington, DC
Atlanta, GA

If these people don't read their mail, perhaps they read their local
newspapers.

Also, whenever you see folks touring Harmony, send them to the website
that leads them here:

http://HarmonyFLcommons.com

This way, they can see the facts and hopefully ask the developer
questions before they sign any contracts. The more people who ask
openly about the promised equestrian facilities returning to Harmony,
the more likely this amenity will open up to all residents again.

If you have the time, hang out at the welcome center. Sit near the
entrance and direct new people to this information. For the sake of
fairness, also suggest that they check out the developer's website:

http://HarmonyFL.com

Finally, picketing is still an option. This was discussed years ago,
before Bob Geimer (Starwood VP) frightened many with this:

we have been advised that this small group will set up
a website entitled “Harmonylies.com” and that this
group plans to picket at Harmony. ... will vigorously
defend ourselves and the reputation of Harmony or
Birchwood Acres against any unwarranted claims,
slanderous statements or actions that interfere with
or interrupt our business.

This statement was also posted by Bob Geimer more than 3 years ago
(along with his claims about the impending equestrian facility). After
that, former supporters of this cause retreated and many moved away.

All the while I have continued to publish the facts about what has
been going on in Harmony. This will continue for as long as the issues
remain unresolved and for as long as I have the time and the energy. I
will also support anyone else who wishes to become active on these
issues in Harmony.

During all of this, please keep one thing in mind.

The developers of other communities around Orlando are now fully aware
of what's been going on in Harmony over that past 5 years or so. Most
real-estate agents in the area are also aware of these facts. The days
of Harmony Development keeping Harmony's "little secrets" hidden are
over. If there is any hope that the developers of Harmony (ie.
Starwood Capital) will be competitive in the Central Florida housing
market, they will need to deliver on the amenities promised all those
years ago.

Why else would real people be willing to buy houses out in the middle
of nowhere? With property values flat or declining, it's no longer a
market for the house flippers. We need real families with real needs
living here. The peace and quite is nice, but it gets monotonous after
awhile. There must be more to offer prospective residents than just
the latest "green living" marketing gimmicks.

Dave Leeman

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Jul 24, 2009, 6:53:06 PM7/24/09
to HarmonyFL
George is wrong again. His statement below is false. Here are his
words.

"Since it has been clearly demonstrated that Dave, Kerul and the
others haven't expended any effort to open up the Harmony Horse
Amenity to other residents"

It has NOT been "clearly demonstrated". The only thing that has been
demonstrated is that George repeats false statements over and over in
the hope that they'll somehow become true. We discussed this very
subject just a few short weeks ago. Here are my words from June
16th. "You then proclaim failure to achieve our ends as evidence that
we never tried. That is completely bogus. The Cardinals failed to win
the superbowl, is that evidence that they didn't try? The Magic failed
to win an NBA title. Is that evidence that they didn't try? Kerul won
the CDD board election, is that evidence that you didn't try to keep
her from being elected? Just because we failed does not mean we did
not try..."
In addition, my post from March 30th 2006. My words: "We have
several times tried to explain (to the developer) that it is in
everybody's interest to have more horses, not less, and each time were
shot down." Remember, this is the post that, in George's words, took
"courage" to write, and was written with "candor". George's words,
and he never questioned or denied that such discussions took place.
This was less than 3 months after this whole thing began, and we had
already had "several" discussions with the developer's
representatives. We have had numerous face to face discussions in the
3 years since then. Just because we have been unable to change their
minds is NOT evidence that we didn't try. (except in George's mind.)
So, since it was stated clearly just a few short weeks ago that
evidence of failure is not evidence of no effort, and George knew
about and quoted from my post from May 2006, where I am on record as
trying to get others in, what are we to think? Since George has
stated previuosly that he has integrity and does not lie, I guess he
just forgot. Be that as it may. His statement that "it has been
clearly demonstrated that Dave, Kerul and the others haven't expended
any effort to open up the Harmony Horse Amenity to other residents" is
patently FALSE.

Geo

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Jul 26, 2009, 1:38:52 PM7/26/09
to HarmonyFL
I beg to differ.

What HAS been demonstrated is that there is no evidence other than
Dave's own words that he or Kerul or any of the horse folks have ever
tried to open up the Harmony Horse Amenity to others.

In a previous thread titled "Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Past
Efforts at Openness" ( http://tinyurl.com/loz3hz ) I asked Dave to
provide some evidence for his claims, anything at all. I wrote "I
don't believe you. Prove it." and "So produce your correspondence Dave
and let everyone judge for themselves." But Dave ignored these
requests as he always does.

Dave never provides evidence for anything. All he does is ramble on
about his impression of what has been written in this forum.

Dave, can you not produce a single email or a single letter that
supports your claim that you and Kerul have been actively speaking to
the developer on behalf of all Harmony residents? Can you produce not
even one scrap of evidence?

But all of that is beside the point. Dave as usual sidesteps the
current question.

The question now is how he and Kerul and the others have tried to hold
the developer accountable for its lack of good faith. It is now clear
that they haven't, nor do they intend to.

Jim Warren

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Jul 26, 2009, 4:58:10 PM7/26/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com
" The question now is how he and Kerul and the others have tried to hold
the developer accountable for its lack of good faith. It is now clear
that they haven't, nor do they intend to."

And why should they?
You know yourself George that trying to hold the Developer accountable is
something even you cannot do, and you have tried have you not?
What makes you think even if they had tried that they would be successful?

Not providing evidence does not make a person guilty, in the same way you
cannot provide evidence that Dave has not tried to
convince the developer to open up to others.
Have you been to every meeting or meet up between Dave and the developer?

Geo

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Jul 27, 2009, 6:07:59 PM7/27/09
to HarmonyFL
You ask why should they even try to hold the developer accountable
Jim?

They should try because they are residents here. They should try
because they were sold the same bill of goods as the rest of us. But
more than anything else, they should try to hold the developer
accountable because they have a special privilege that no one else has
in Harmony. And finally, in Kerul's case alone, she should try holding
the developer accountable because that is part of what she was elected
to do, right?

You do make a good point though Jim. How do we, the little people of
Harmony, hold a billion dollar company (Starwood) accountable for the
lies told mostly by the people Starwood bought Harmony from? We
obviously don't have the resources to sue them, as we have discussed
before. So our only option is to expose their lies and hope that
eventually the general public will become more aware of them. This was
the point of my previous post on this topic. What else can we do?
Without regard to the likelihood of success or failure, we must at
least try, right Jim?

You are also correct on another point. I cannot prove a negative. No
one can, and Dave knows this. That's why he keeps suggesting it.

"Have you been to every meeting or meet up between Dave and the
developer?"

I don't recall attending a private meeting with the developer that
also included Dave. But I did attend a private meeting with the
developer last year in which I discussed amenity issues for the
benefit of everyone in Harmony. As is customary, I followed up that
meeting with an email (and many others since). In fact, I have been
having an ongoing email exchange with Shad Tome since then that
includes his response as recently as today.

So I find it beyond credible that Dave or Kerul or the others do not
have a single email that supports Dave's contention that he and the
others have been seriously negotiating the horse issue with the
developer on behalf of all Harmony residents for the past 3+ years.


On Jul 26, 4:58 pm, "Jim Warren" <j...@jj-telecoms.com> wrote:
> " The question now is how he and Kerul and the others have tried to hold
> the developer accountable for its lack of good faith. It is now clear
> that they haven't, nor do they intend to."
>
> And why should they?
> You know yourself George that trying to hold the Developer accountable is
> something even you cannot do, and you have tried have you not?
> What makes you think even if they had tried that they would be successful?
>
> Not providing evidence does not make a person guilty, in the same way you
> cannot provide evidence that Dave has not tried to
> convince the developer to open up to others.
> Have you been to every meeting or meet up between Dave and the developer?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harm...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Harm...@googlegroups.com] On
>
> Behalf Of Geo
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 1:39 PM
> To: HarmonyFL
> Subject: [HarmonyFL:525] Re: Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Holding Developer
> Accountable
>
> I beg to differ.
>
> What HAS been demonstrated is that there is no evidence other than
> Dave's own words that he or Kerul or any of the horse folks have ever
> tried to open up the Harmony Horse Amenity to others.
>
> In a previous thread titled "Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Past
> Efforts at Openness" (http://tinyurl.com/loz3hz) I asked Dave to
> > > All the while I have continued to...
>
> read more »

gad...@aol.com

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Jul 28, 2009, 9:35:23 AM7/28/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com
why should they complain to the developer?  They have a good deal 120 acres for free....not many people have that opportunity.  Most have to at least pay a mortgage.  If harmony started  a money making equestrian center for the community would they then have to pay for boarding their horses or would they still get their 120 acres for free?  After all they are getting the acreage because of a hardship, imagine having to move your horses because boarding land is no longer available..... 
Kathy Ball




-----Original Message-----
From: Geo <IIDIMG...@spammotel.com>
To: HarmonyFL <Harm...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 27, 2009 6:07 pm
Subject: [HarmonyFL:527] Re: Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Holding Developer Accountable


You ask why should they even try to hold the developer accountable
Jim?

They should try because they are residents here. They should try
because they were sold the same bill of goods as the rest of us. But
more than anything else, they should try to hold the developer
accountable because they have a special privilege that no one else has
in Harmony. And finally, in Kerul's case alone, she should try holding
0Athe developer accountable because that is part of what she was elected
to do, right?

You do make a good point though Jim. How do we, the little people of
Harmony, hold a billion dollar company (Starwood) accountable for the
lies told mostly by the people Starwood bought Harmony from? We
obviously don't have the resources to sue them, as we have discussed
before. So our only option is to expose their lies and hope that
eventually the general public will become more aware of them. This was
the point of my previous post on this topic. What else can we do?
Without regard to the likelihood of success or failure, we must at
least try, right Jim?

You are also correct on another point. I cannot prove a negative. No
one can, and Dave knows this. That's why he keeps suggesting it.

"Have you been to every meeting or meet up between Dave and the
developer?"

I don't recall attending a private meeting with the developer that
also included Dave. But I did attend a private meeting with the
developer last year in which I discussed amenity issues for the
benefit of everyone in Harmony. As is customary, I followed up that
meeting with an email (and many others since). In fact, I have been
having an ongoing email exchange with Shad Tome since then that
includes his response as recently as today.

So I find it beyond credible that Dave or Kerul or the others do not
have a single email that supports Dave's contention that he an
d the
others have been seriously negotiating the horse issue with the
developer on behalf of all Harmony residents for the past 3+ years.


On Jul 26, 4:58 pm, "Jim Warren" <j...@jj-telecoms.com> wrote:
> " The question now is how he and Kerul and the others have tried to hold
> the developer accountable for its lack of good faith. It is now clear
> that they haven't, nor do they intend to."
>
> And why should they?
> You know yourself George that trying to hold the Developer accountable is
> something even you cannot do, and you have tried have you not?
> What makes you think even if they had tried that they would be successful?
>
> Not providing evidence does not make a person guilty, in the same way you
> cannot provide evidence that Dave has not tried to
> convince the developer to open up to others.
> Have you been to every meeting or meet up between Dave and the developer?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harm...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Harm...@googlegroups.com] On
>
> Behalf Of Geo
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 1:39 PM
> To: HarmonyFL
> Subject: [HarmonyFL:525] Re: Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Holding Developer
> Accountable
>
> I beg to differ.
>
> What HAS been demonstrated is that there is no evidence other t
han
> Dave's own words that he or Kerul or any of the horse folks have ever
> tried to open up the Harmony Horse Amenity to others.
>
> In a previous thread titled "Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Past
> Efforts at Openness" (http://tinyurl.com/loz3hz) I asked Dave to
> provide some evidence for his claims, anything at all. I wrote "I
> don't believe you. Prove it." and "So produce your correspondence Dave
> and let everyone judge for themselves." But Dave ignored these
> requests as he always does.
>
> Dave never provides evidence for anything. All he does is ramble on
> about his impression of what has been written in this forum.
>
> Dave, can you not produce a single email or a single letter that
> supports your claim that you and Kerul have been actively speaking to
> the developer on behalf of all Harmony residents? Can you produce not
> even one scrap of evidence?
>
> But all of that is beside the point. Dave as usual sidesteps the
> current question.
>
> The question now is how he and Kerul and the others have tried to hold
> the developer accountable for its lack of good faith. It is now clear
> that they haven't, nor do they intend to.
>
> On Jul 24, 6:53 pm, Dave Leeman <RescueGreyho...@onebox.com> wrote:
> > George is wrong again.  His=2
0statement below is false.  Here are his
> > words.
>
> > "Since it has been clearly demonstrated that Dave, Kerul and the
> > others haven't expended any effort to open up the Harmony Horse
> > Amenity to other residents"
>
> > It has NOT been "clearly demonstrated".  The only thing that has been
> > demonstrated is that George repeats false statements over and over in
> > the hope that they'll somehow become true.  We discussed this very
> > subject just a few short weeks ago.   Here are my words from June
> > 16th.  "You then proclaim failure to achieve our ends as evidence that
> > we never tried. That is completely bogus. The Cardinals failed to win
> > the superbowl, is that evidence that they didn't try? The Magic failed
> > to win an NBA title. Is that evidence that they didn't try? Kerul won
> > the CDD board election, is that evidence that you didn't try to keep
> > her from being elected? Just because we failed does not mean we did
> > not try..."
> > In addition, my post from March 30th 2006.  My words:  "We have
> > several times tried to explain (to the developer) that it is in
> > everybody's interest to have more horses, not less, and each time were
> > shot down."  Remember, this is the post that, in George's words, took
> > "courage" to write, and was written with20"candor".  George's words,
> > and he never questioned or denied that such discussions took place.
> > This was less than 3 months after this whole thing began, and we had
> > already had "several" discussions with the developer's
> > representatives.  We have had numerous face to face discussions in the
> > 3 years since then.  Just because we have been unable to change their
> > minds is NOT evidence that we didn't try.  (except in George's mind.)
> > So, since it was stated clearly just a few short weeks ago that
> > evidence of failure is not evidence of no effort, and George knew
> > about and quoted from my post from May 2006, where I am on record as
> > trying to get others in, what are we to think?  Since George has
> > stated previuosly that he has integrity and does not lie, I guess he
> > just forgot.  Be that as it may.  His statement that "it has been
> > clearly demonstrated that Dave, Kerul and the others haven't expended
> > any effort to open up the Harmony Horse Amenity to other residents" is
> > patently FALSE.
>
> > On Jul 21, 8:59 pm, Geo <IIDIMGRLA...@spammotel.com> wrote:
>
> > > This is a continuation of the 2/20/2009 post by the same name
> (http://tinyurl.com/mpbt46):
>
> > >20    Dave, it's been almost 3 years since Bob Geimer (Starwood
> > >     VP responsible for Harmony) wrote that "A new permanent
> > >     equestrian facility is currently in the conceptual design
> > >     phase based upon the recommendations of three separate
> > >     studies recently completed." How have you followed-up with
> > >     either Bob Geimer or Bob Evans on this? Please list each
> > >     communication between you and the developer on this topic.
>
> > > Dave has decided not to answer this question so I will give it a try.
> > > If anyone knows better, please speak up.
>
> > > Since it has been clearly demonstrated that Dave, Kerul and the others
> > > haven't expended any effort to open up the Harmony Horse Amenity to
> > > other residents, it's pretty obvious now that they didn't exert
> > > themselves communicating with the powers-that-be either.
>
> > > This begs a few more questions though. What is the most effective way
> > > to communicate with these Starwood folks? How can they be held
> > > accountable for what they've done here (or what they have failed to
> > > do)?
>
> > > To answer the first question, I would suggest that all of you horse
> > > folks (ie. especially those currently be
nefiting from the developer's
> > > largesse) start attending CDD meetings and HOA meetings. Yes, we know
> > > that HOA meetings are not really about Harmony amenities, but so what!
>
> > > Get out there and speak up about this issue at every public meeting
> > > you can. It does not matter what Bob Evans or anyone else thinks is
> > > appropriate at these meetings. What matters is that people show that
> > > they care about the issues. Show that you care that the developer has
> > > lied to us repeatedly over the years about this and many other
> > > amenities in Harmony.
>
> > > What matters is that we had a budding horse amenity in Harmony that
> > > was heavily advertised then yanked away (from most of us). What
> > > matters is that people show that Starwood Capital and other billion
> > > dollar companies can't get away with this anymore.
>
> > > Write letters to Shad Tome and to Bob Geimer. Don't bother with Bob
> > > Evans (He's a waste of your time and effort). I would also suggest
> > > that you write to Barry Sternlicht. He's the Chairman and CEO of
> > > Starwood Capital. Tell Mr. Sternlicht about the damage that Bob Evans
> > > has done here. Ask if Mr. Sternlicht can fix it. I have not written to
> > > Mr. Sternlicht yet myself, but I expect to soo
n.
>
> > > While you're at it, you might as well write letters to all of the
> > > directors of Starwood Capital, just in case Mr. Sternlicht doesn't
> > > read his own mail. Here is the Starwood website:
>
> > >http://www.StarwoodCapital.com
>
> > > To send an email to any of these Starwood people, use his or her last
> > > name followed by the first letter of the first name, then append
> > > @Starwood.com .
>
> > > In your letters to Starwood, remind them that there are already horses
> > > in Harmony. Let them know that only 6 residents have horses on 120
> > > acres of land in Harmony, land dedicated to that purpose. Remind them
> > > that this has been going on for more than 3 years now. It's been going
> > > on after everyone else in Harmony was informed by Bob Geimer himself
> > > (in writing) that planning for a full equestrian facility was already
> > > in the works, an equestrian facility that would be open to everyone.
> > > That claim was also made more than 3 years ago. Ask them why 120 acres
> > > is not sufficient for dozens of horses. Ask them if the words of
> > > Starwood people mean anything at all.
>
> > > After that, consider writing letters to the editors of the major
> >20> newspapers in the cities that Starwood has headquarters:
>
> > > Greenwich, CT
> > > Washington, DC
> > > Atlanta, GA
>
> > > If these people don't read their mail, perhaps they read their local
> > > newspapers.
>
> > > Also, whenever you see folks touring Harmony, send them to the website
> > > that leads them here:
>
> > >http://HarmonyFLcommons.com

>
> > > This way, they can see the facts and hopefully ask the developer
> > > questions before they sign any contracts. The more people who ask
> > > openly about the promised equestrian facilities returning to Harmony,
> > > the more likely this amenity will open up to all residents again.
>
> > > If you have the time, hang out at the welcome center. Sit near the
> > > entrance and direct new people to this information. For the sake of
> > > fairness, also suggest that they check out the developer's website:
>
> > >http://HarmonyFL.com

>
> > > Finally, picketing is still an option. This was discussed years ago,
> > > before Bob Geimer (Starwood VP) frightened many with this:
>
> > >     we have been advised that this small group will set up
> > >     a website entitled 0Harmonylies.com” and that this
> > >     group plans to picket at Harmony. ... will vigorously
> > >     defend ourselves and the reputation of Harmony or
> > >     Birchwood Acres against any unwarranted claims,
> > >     slanderous statements or actions that interfere with
> > >     or interrupt our business.
>
> > > This statement was also posted by Bob Geimer more than 3 years ago
> > > (along with his claims about the impending equestrian facility). After
> > > that, former supporters of this cause retreated and many moved away.
>
> > > All the while I have continued to...
>
> read more »


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Jim Warren

unread,
Jul 28, 2009, 9:55:09 AM7/28/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com
They should try because they are residents here. They should try
because they were sold the same bill of goods as the rest of us. But
more than anything else, they should try to hold the developer
accountable because they have a special privilege that no one else has
in Harmony. And finally, in Kerul's case alone, she should try holding
the developer accountable because that is part of what she was elected
to do, right?
Wrong.. She was elected to help run the CDD, which maintains the
infrastructure and facilities of Harmony.
The CDD is not a vendetta against the developer. And is not in place to hold
the developer accountable.
" The primary function of a CDD is to provide infrastructure for a new
community--roadways, street lights, stormwater management areas, walking
trails and sidewalks, and other such infrastructure items."

You do make a good point though Jim. How do we, the little people of
Harmony, hold a billion dollar company (Starwood) accountable for the lies
told mostly by the people Starwood bought Harmony from? We obviously don't
have the resources to sue them, as we have discussed before. So our only
option is to expose their lies and hope that eventually the general public
will become more aware of them. This was the point of my previous post on
this topic. What else can we do?
Without regard to the likelihood of success or failure, we must at least
try, right Jim?

Right, in regard to being mis-led about features or amenities that were
stated at the beginning, sure.
Wrong in your approach. Unfortunately there is a point when the complaining
about a lack of facility and "lies" as you call them becomes pointless in
it's objective.
Your calls for facilities have been heard and some have been provided. Some,
however may not be provided in this present economic climate, and some never
at all, as times, and in this case, developers change.
Unfortunately attacking your neighbors is not the recourse to gaining a
facility or amenity. Unless your neighbor happens to be an owner of the
development company. Otherwise, again you are throwing your time and effort
down a huge black hole.

You are also correct on another point. I cannot prove a negative. No one
can, and Dave knows this. That's why he keeps suggesting it.

So why keep on? Pissing your neighbors off, does not get things done, nor
elevate your campaign to a level where people want to help you.


So I find it beyond credible that Dave or Kerul or the others do not have a
single email that supports Dave's contention that he and the others have
been seriously negotiating the horse issue with the developer on behalf of
all Harmony residents for the past 3+ years

Again your logic is flawed.
You have not been privy to any conversations Dave and Kerul may have had
during the course of their meetings with the developer over the years.
The fact they have "no email" means nothing. You are making suggestions that
make no sense.
You yourself have tried as you state " But I did attend a private meeting


with the developer last year in which I discussed amenity issues for the
benefit of everyone in Harmony. As is customary, I followed up that meeting
with an email (and many others since). In fact, I have been having an
ongoing email exchange with Shad Tome since then that includes his response

as recently as today." But what has it achieved? The same result I dare say
as both Dave and Kerul ??? No change.....

Again I try to write in the face of adversity, that you should work with
your neighbors (especially those who have their horses here) not against
them.
Also your attacks may have made that relationship a non-starter. However
keep on attacking and making false statements based on your assessment
continues to help no one.
Your posts should be aimed at the developer and owners at Starwood, as these
are the only people who have the power to change the future of the
development. Working with them may help as a community. Issuing war cry's
aimed at hurting the sales of homes here is not the way to get it done.

IMHO only

Jim

Geo

unread,
Jul 28, 2009, 9:18:47 PM7/28/09
to HarmonyFL
You know Jim, your posts are getting almost as unreadable as Dave's.
It's getting hard to tell you apart.

"Wrong.. She was elected to help run the CDD, which maintains the
infrastructure and facilities of Harmony. The CDD is not a vendetta
against the developer. And is not in place to hold the developer
accountable."

There's that vendetta again! You and Dave must talk allot about this
stuff. ;0)

You couldn't be more wrong Jim, IMHO. I would bet that most people who
voted for Harmony residents to fill two seats on the CDD board did so
with the understanding that those elected would at least try to keep
the developer honest. That's the kind of accountability I am talking
about. I would also expect missing amenities to be proposed for
discussion by these new supervisors at every opportunity.

'"lies" as you call them'

We're not playing word games here, are we Jim? I think your real-
estate personality is showing again. The fact of the lies has been
clearly documented, however much you and the developer would like to
pretend otherwise.

"attacking your neighbors"

What you and your good buddy Dave consider attacks, others consider
the exposition of the truth about a basic injustice going on here.

'The fact they have "no email" means nothing.'

This is a joke right? If not, you not being a defense attorney means
that you've missed your calling Jim.

"making false statements"

As Dave's apparent alter ego, you are equally obligated to support
such a bogus claim. Give us a specific example Jim.

"Issuing war cry's aimed at hurting the sales of homes here is not the
way to get it done."

What do you mean? All I suggested was that residents should take every
opportunity to spread the truth about Harmony.

As you imply, why should the truth hurt sales in Harmony Jim?
> > > "courage" to write, and was written with "candor".  George's...
>
> read more »

Jim Warren

unread,
Jul 29, 2009, 9:05:56 AM7/29/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com
George,

I will stick to facts, and not "Georges world" OK?

You couldn't be more wrong Jim, IMHO. I would bet that most people who
voted for Harmony residents to fill two seats on the CDD board did so
with the understanding that those elected would at least try to keep
the developer honest. That's the kind of accountability I am talking
about. I would also expect missing amenities to be proposed for
discussion by these new supervisors at every opportunity.

Your really do not know what the CDD is for George do you? I hope that
others reading this do.
The CDD is not a facility to keep the developer honest or accountable. It is
a vehicle to manage the infrastructure of the community.
It has no bearings on what the developer does at all.
Any "new amenities" provided by the CDD are paid for from your TAX dollars.
The more you ask the CDD to provide the more it costs the residents in
dollars.
Get it George?

'"lies" as you call them'
We're not playing word games here, are we Jim? I think your real-
estate personality is showing again. The fact of the lies has been
clearly documented, however much you and the developer would like to
pretend otherwise.

I never stated that the original developer has never delivered all the
proposed amenities. The new developer would always have a different view
from The Lentz's.
And guess what if Starwood sells the community to another developer, then
the plan changes again. Life changes, plans change, that's life George.
The lies reference was pointed at your clear "assumptions" about what your
neighbors have said or not said to the developer.
If you don’t know for sure keep your gob shut.
It has nothing to do with my or anyone's Real Estate Business. Your
ignorance to what other people do in life is astounding.
You should get out more and talk with your neighbors, instead of hiding in
your little corner. Maybe you would learn what your neighbors do for a
living, and why they don’t bother getting involved in your boring
inconsequential ramblings. That's why no one else contributes to these
forums, and you get shouted down at every meeting you attend.
You really are thick skinned my friend.



"attacking your neighbors"
What you and your good buddy Dave consider attacks, others consider
the exposition of the truth about a basic injustice going on here.

I don’t think so George. You and your so called "others' have never been
seen or heard from.
Are you sure your not living a double life on an island in the pacific
somewhere?
"Good Buddy"- I would stick up for anyone I thought you were unfairly
attacking. I am not one dimensional George. I can see the 2 sides to every
story.

'The fact they have "no email" means nothing.'
This is a joke right? If not, you not being a defense attorney means
that you've missed your calling Jim.

No Joke. Just facts. In the same vein that you can provide no evidence to
the contrary. Stop peddling lies and false statements.
Your response with a snide remark shows you know you are wrong.

"making false statements"
As Dave's apparent alter ego, you are equally obligated to support
such a bogus claim. Give us a specific example Jim.

I listed an example earlier "Since it has been clearly demonstrated that


Dave, Kerul and the
others haven't expended any effort to open up the Harmony Horse

Amenity to other residents" Since you have no proof that Dave did not do
anything, it is clearly a lie.
There is no argument in that.

What do you mean? All I suggested was that residents should take every
opportunity to spread the truth about Harmony.

Truth is what George? That some of your neighbors have a piece of field to
house their horses?
Why is that such an irritant to you? A deal that was cut with some early
residents that helped them out when Mrs. Lentz took away the small stable
that was here back in 2004?
Why aren't you posting that the schools here are A&B schools, that the CDD
provided a playing field for football, and Soccer. A basket ball court, a
volley ball court. That the area has great playing facilities for little
kids, that are safe and clean. That the area has a great neighborhood watch
scheme and low crime. That the golf course is second to none for a public
facility. That Harmony has several great walking trails, and 2 lakes, one of
which has free boats to use and see the lakes. That a Fishing derby is held
every first Friday, where fishing poles are provided free, along with expert
tuition. That Harmony has it's own Activities director that co-ordinates and
provides some excellent trips and local activities (usually free) for
residents and their families. That Some of those activities bring in people
from not only Harmony, but Holopaw, Melbourne, St. Cloud, Narcoossee etc,
for a great day or evening of entertainment. That Harmony has it's own Fire
Station for a rapid response, which in one neighbors view has already paid
for itself 10 times over.
What in your mind is really missing apart from a baseball field (would get
as much use as the soccer field I guess), a charter school (replaced by a
very good public school) and the horses George? (We all know the Town square
is an issue, and I say the biggest, but it is not off the agenda)
No.... Your truth is only the spiteful truth as you see it, a bent out of
shape vision that is spiteful and hateful. Your personal feelings should not
be the driving force for this agenda George. If you feel let down, then you
should consider your alternative options.
Really George, is it that bad that a few horse are boarded here in an old
field, with no facilities?
Given time, and hopefully some money, that may change. But are you George,
as a tax payer really ready to support an equestrian facility? The new bond
that would have to be issued, and the rise in TAX on a yearly basis to
support it.
Are you really gunning for that in this present climate?
If you are fair enough. But stand up and say it, and start a proposal to do
so.
Lets see some activity on that George. Hold a meeting, lets see who the
"others" really are.
Run for the next CDD seat. Do something instead of sending out these useless
and hurtful emails aimed at your neighbors.
Get of your high horse and be constructive, not destructive.
Be a man, and stop aiming snide remarks whenever someone contributes to the
forum if you don’t agree with their posting.
Lets see some action, not just words...... can you do that? I doubt it.

Geo

unread,
Jul 29, 2009, 8:00:35 PM7/29/09
to HarmonyFL
"Get it George?"

Indeed I do. Bob Evans couldn't have expressed it better himself. You
have exactly expressed the perspective of the developer. Now, here's
what the CDD is from the perspective of most residents.

For at least 5 years the Harmony CDD was composed of nothing by
lackeys of the developer. These people mostly included either
consultants paid by the developer (eg. Bob Evans) or spouses of the
developer (eg. Martha Lentz), spouses of employees of the developer
(eg. James O'Keefe), real-estate investors with substantial holdings
in Harmony (eg. Nancy Snyder) and various other "professional" paid
board members. These people were not elected by Harmony residents.
They were appointed by Harmony Development Company.

These people in no way represented the interests of Harmony residents.
On monetary issues that have come before the CDD board they have
consistently voted for the benefit of the developer at the expense of
ordinary residents. Two glaring examples are 1) the expenditure of
$140,000 per year to maintain golf course ponds owned by the developer
and 2) the commitment to expend $350,000 over the course of the next 4
years over and above another landscape contract proposal deemed fair
and reasonable by one of our elected CDD board members.

To the residents of Harmony, the people elected to represent them
serve not only to put a stop to these abuses by the developer but also
to help implement amenities that were promised but never delivered by
the developer. Yes, our CDD taxes will have to be used for these
amenities, but at no additional cost. Why? Because once $500,000 or
more gets reallocated from benefiting the developer to benefiting the
residents, we will have plenty of money for new amenities.

So your statement that "The CDD is not a facility to keep the
developer honest or accountable." is just plain goofy Jim. It makes
you sound like you are just towing the developer's line.

'The lies reference was pointed at your clear "assumptions" about what
your neighbors have said or not said to the developer.'

I'm not sure what this means. I am guessing that you mean that I don't
believe Dave when he claims that he and Kerul have been negotiating
with the developer for the past 3+ on behalf of all Harmony residents
to open up the Harmony Horse Amenity.

But of course (as you allude to) I was actually referring to the lies
of the developer. As I stated, most of the lies originated with the
previous developer (ie. Jim Lentz), but the representatives of
Starwood have lied to us as well. This fact has also been well
documented.

"Life changes, plans change, that's life George."

Yes, life changes and plans change but obligations don't. Perhaps you
can understand better with a real-estate example Jim.

You buy a house. But before doing so, you get a mortgage from a bank.
A few years later you decide that you no longer want the house, so you
arrange to sell it. But instead of paying off the mortgage, you sell
the house with the debt attached. Your buyer may or may not
acknowledge this debt, but no matter, for the bank holds a lien on the
house. The bottom line is that the new buyer is obligated to pay the
debt to the bank whether he likes it or not.

In this case, the residents of Harmony are the bank, Jim Lentz is the
seller and Starwood is the new buyer. The original obligation was made
by Lentz. Then Starwood came along and paid Jim Lentz for Harmony.
Starwood thereby acquired this obligation along with the property. One
difference between the residents of Harmony and a bank is that we have
no lien on the development. We can sue Starwood. Based on Florida
Statutes that gives us the right (contrary to what Bob Geimer may
think, see http://tinyurl.com/da8yzw ), but realistically what we can
actually do is simply tell the truth as best as we can and hope that
prospective buyers ask questions about all of this before signing on.
Ideally, smart buyers will require their builders to put amenity
delivery requirements into their building contracts.

"If you don’t know for sure keep your gob shut. It has nothing to do
with my or anyone's Real Estate Business. ... You really are thick
skinned my friend."

And you are a little too thin skinned buddy. Whenever I mention your
real-estate connections you always lash out that way. Why do suppose
that is Jim? And FYI, I was shouted down only one time that I can
recall, and that was by Carl Fsadni's good buddy (I forget his name).
But this is not unusual. If you are at odds with someone's friend,
that someone will be much more inclined to speak up, even in support
of nonsense positions.

I don't hide Jim, but I do talk to my neighbors. While most of them
remain silent in this forum for various reasons, many of them agree
will my positions and they are equally aware of the facts on the
ground here.

But I do take offense at the term "your boring inconsequential
ramblings" though. I think my writing style is pretty good. At least
it has captured your ongoing interest for years. I must say that your
writing style is much more akin to Dave's though (perhaps not as
pretzelian), but still nothing to brag about. I am sure with practice
you will improve over time.

'You and your so called "others' have never been seen or heard from.'

As I recall there were at least a dozen signers of the original "Last
Call" letter sent to Bob Geimer years ago. Many have moved and the
rest have mostly given up. I think that the list of names appears in
one of these threads. But for some reason, searching in Google Groups
doesn't seem to work anymore. If you doubt me Jim, just say so and I
will track it down.

"Since you have no proof that Dave did not do anything, it is clearly
a lie. There is no argument in that."

That's pretty funny Jim. Your logic escapes me (and many others no
doubt). After more than 6 months of prodding, and with me producing
various pieces of documentation that Dave refused to, all the evidence
suggests the contrary, however circumstantial. And all of that is
piled on the basic fact that nothing has changed with the horse
amenity in more than 3.5 years. The proof is in the pudding, as they
say. If you can't see that, then you must be blinded by your personal
relationship with Dave and Kerul.

"Truth is what George? That some of your neighbors have a piece of
field to house their horses?"

No, not really. That is not the truth I was referring to and I think
you knew that Jim. The truth that I was referring to starts here:

"Harmony Development Statements That Constitute Broken Promises"
http://tinyurl.com/da8yzw

"Why aren't you posting that the schools here are A&B schools ... That
Harmony has it's own Fire
Station for a rapid response, which in one neighbors view has already
paid for itself 10 times over."

You are now being somewhat disingenuous Jim. I have posted about much
of what you listed. But even though I have, why should I? The billion
dollar developer of Harmony already has most if not all of what you
listed covered on its website (which I have also posted several
times):

http://HarmonyFL.com

But what has never appeared on the developer's website is the
slightest hint of the many missing amenities or the fact (for just one
example) that the fire station was promised 6 years ago yet delivered
only a few months ago.

So what's your point Jim? I really don't get it. My purpose here is to
offer the other side of the story while your purpose seems to be the
retelling of the developer's side. That's fine. You keep doing what
you do and I will keep doing what I do. OK?

"If you feel let down, then you should consider your alternative
options. "

Hmm, let me guess at what those "alternative options" might be Jim. I
should move, right? Love it or leave it! But I do love Harmony,
believe it or not. I love Harmony so much that I am doing whatever I
can to make it better. This is what I can do. I just don't happen to
agree that remaining silent helps change anything.

"But are you George, as a tax payer really ready to support an
equestrian facility?"

Yes I am. Are you?

"The new bond that would have to be issued, and the rise in TAX on a
yearly basis to support it."

Wrong (see above).

"Get of your high horse and be constructive, not destructive. Be a
man"

I am a man. Are you? I consistently speak my mind in this public
forum, in public meetings and privately to your face, to Dave's face,
to Jim Lentz's face, to Bob Geimer's face, most recently to Shad
Tome's face and to anyone else who happens to be within hearing. I
have written letters to the editor of newspapers. I have been on TV
about the water problem in Harmony (which I have also been in contact
with various water departments about for years). I have been
interviewed about various Harmony related topics by reporters.

As a direct result of my efforts the original basketball court was
installed across from the charter school; Bob Geimer changed his mind
and did allow the horse people to keep their horses here; the chess
table near the dog park is no longer installed backward; warning signs
were installed at drinking fountains used by charter school children
and a tree from my back yard was installed in the dog park. I also
believe that neither the new facilities at Lake Shore Park nor the
activities director would have been implemented when they were, had
Shad Tome not been actively monitoring this forum.

So Jim, as a man, what exactly have you accomplished on behalf of
Harmony residents?
> > try, right Jim?...
>
> read more »

Jim Warren

unread,
Jul 29, 2009, 9:50:22 PM7/29/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com
George,

1. These people in no way represented the interests of Harmony residents.


On monetary issues that have come before the CDD board they have
consistently voted for the benefit of the developer at the expense of
ordinary residents. Two glaring examples are 1) the expenditure of $140,000
per year to maintain golf course ponds owned by the developer and 2) the
commitment to expend $350,000 over the course of the next 4 years over and
above another landscape contract proposal deemed fair and reasonable by one
of our elected CDD board members.

- This was brought up last year and clearly stated that the Golf course and
Harmony share these ponds for drainage. Harmony contributing to their upkeep
is only fair. The fact that the drainage system is second to none, proves
what a good investment it is.
The golf course is not a benefit or amenity for the community George? I
think it is our biggest amenity and draw for potential home owners.
Is this your first experience with a CDD George?

2. I'm not sure what this means. I am guessing that you mean that I don't


believe Dave when he claims that he and Kerul have been negotiating
with the developer for the past 3+ on behalf of all Harmony residents
to open up the Harmony Horse Amenity.

- You change the wording again George. Show me where Dave or Kerul have
stated they have been negotiating for the past 3 years. You are making this
shit up George. Stop it now or I will not take you or your forum seriously.

3. But of course (as you allude to) I was actually referring to the lies


of the developer. As I stated, most of the lies originated with the
previous developer (ie. Jim Lentz), but the representatives of
Starwood have lied to us as well. This fact has also been well
documented.

- You lie George, the developer lies. Everyone lies. Stop crying about it.
If you really believe you have been wronged issue a writ, talk to Morgan and
Morgan (no win no fee) They wont take it on, because they know you have no
standing. But telling people that harmony is not the place to live is the
WRONG way to go about it.

4. In this case, the residents of Harmony are the bank, Jim Lentz is the


seller and Starwood is the new buyer. The original obligation was made
by Lentz. Then Starwood came along and paid Jim Lentz for Harmony.
Starwood thereby acquired this obligation along with the property. One
difference between the residents of Harmony and a bank is that we have
no lien on the development. We can sue Starwood. Based on Florida
Statutes that gives us the right (contrary to what Bob Geimer may
think, see http://tinyurl.com/da8yzw ), but realistically what we can
actually do is simply tell the truth as best as we can and hope that
prospective buyers ask questions about all of this before signing on.
Ideally, smart buyers will require their builders to put amenity
delivery requirements into their building contracts

- Show me in your contract where Harmony or the developer is under contract
to provide what you are stating.
If it is not there, there is no obligation. The only obligation in your mind
is what you read from a leaflet 6 years ago.
You are fighting a losing battle. Give it up.

5. And you are a little too thin skinned buddy. Whenever I mention your


real-estate connections you always lash out that way. Why do suppose
that is Jim? And FYI, I was shouted down only one time that I can
recall, and that was by Carl Fsadni's good buddy (I forget his name).
But this is not unusual. If you are at odds with someone's friend,
that someone will be much more inclined to speak up, even in support
of nonsense positions.

- Ha ha ha, your response is laughable George. Real Estate. Jeez... You have
no idea.
I have seen you shouted down at least 3 times. But of course you are too far
up your own ass to see or hear it.

6. But I do take offense at the term "your boring inconsequential


ramblings" though. I think my writing style is pretty good.

- My point exactly. YOU think.. No one else does or cares, or they would
support you.

7. I am sure with practice you will improve over time.
- See you cant stop can you? You start to get nasty and begin your personal
attacks when people disagree with you George. This makes you the person most
believe you are. A small minded vindictive "little man".

8. "Since you have no proof that Dave did not do anything, it is clearly a


lie. There is no argument in that."

- My logic stands. You accused them of something, yet provided no evidence.
Therefore you told an untruth. What's illogical about that. Oh yeah, Georges
world.

9. You are now being somewhat disingenuous Jim. I have posted about much of


what you listed. But even though I have, why should I? The billion
dollar developer of Harmony already has most if not all of what you listed
covered on its website (which I have also posted several
times):

- It does not hurt for you to admit once in a while

10. But what has never appeared on the developer's website is the slightest


hint of the many missing amenities or the fact (for just one
example) that the fire station was promised 6 years ago yet delivered only a
few months ago.

- But the Fire Station was delivered..... Show me in the marketing where a
specific date is ever mentioned. If a year was mentioned you would be lucky.
Plans change. This is called planning, budgeting and logistics. Have you
never had to put off that new car because the chance was you could not
afford it at that time?

11. Hmm, let me guess at what those "alternative options" might be Jim. I


should move, right? Love it or leave it! But I do love Harmony, believe it
or not. I love Harmony so much that I am doing whatever I can to make it
better. This is what I can do. I just don't happen to agree that remaining
silent helps change anything

- But you're not making it better George are you? You are creating a hostile
and unwelcoming community to prospective homeowners, and producing a hateful
relationship amongst your neighbors. Why would you do this George? I don’t
understand your desire to create such hatred. Why? The decision as stated is
your alternative, not ours to choose.

12. "But are you George, as a tax payer really ready to support an


equestrian facility?"
Yes I am. Are you?

- I would like to put that to the test. As for my answer No I am not. I
believe it should be a private enterprise, and not a cost to residents
through taxes, but a cost to residents who wish to use it.

13. I am a man. Are you? I consistently speak my mind in this public forum,


in public meetings and privately to your face, to Dave's face, to Jim
Lentz's face, to Bob Geimer's face, most recently to Shad Tome's face and to
anyone else who happens to be within hearing. I have written letters to the
editor of newspapers. I have been on TV about the water problem in Harmony
(which I have also been in contact with various water departments about for
years). I have been interviewed about various Harmony related topics by
reporters.

-You think that is the definition of being a man? That you talk to people? A
man I believe I am, but do not have to prove it to you.

14. As a direct result of my efforts the original basketball court was


installed across from the charter school; Bob Geimer changed his mind and
did allow the horse people to keep their horses here; the chess table near
the dog park is no longer installed backward; warning signs were installed
at drinking fountains used by charter school children and a tree from my
back yard was installed in the dog park. I also believe that neither the new
facilities at Lake Shore Park nor the activities director would have been
implemented when they were, had Shad Tome not been actively monitoring this
forum.

- This is very credible, and I applaud you for it. But I don’t think Shad
Tome monitoring this forum was the prime reason for the activities Director,
and the lakeshore development. More people had a hand in helping the
developer than just you and the 10 forum members of which only 4 post.

15. So Jim, as a man, what exactly have you accomplished on behalf of
Harmony residents?
- Actually George, I will take some of the credit for the lakeshore
development. I have helped the conservation club plant trees, and monitor
species. I have made some input with Shad, and Bill as to getting Kids more
involved, and educating kids and adults alike on contributing and enjoying
what Harmony has to offer. And one thing I do better than you is tell my
friends and whoever will listen that Harmony is a great place to live. I
have done this in my short time here without bad mouthing, lying or putting
down my neighbors. I have tried to be friendly to all I meet, and greet them
with a good day and a smile (Even to you George). I certainly don’t then
post on a small forum how bad they are that they have something I want or
that I cant get. I let my neighbors live their lives how they choose, or
with the choices they were handed at that time. I am a man about those sort
of things.

Dave Leeman

unread,
Jul 31, 2009, 3:03:28 PM7/31/09
to HarmonyFL
Hey Jim, you really need to lighten up on George. You're being much
too hard on him in your latest post. After all, while most of us
regular Joes (and Janes) understand that the CDD is just managing the
infrastructure, when I asked George if he was too stupid to understand
these things, he said he was. So since he is too stupid to "get it",
you need to cut him some slack on this one.
After all, if his brain worked, he wouldn't say in one sentence that
we need to hold the developer accountable (which would mean the
developer built and paid for the promised amenities) and in the next
he wants to tax the residents to pay for and build the amenities. If
the residents build and pay for the amenities, the developer is off
the hook. Kind of like his earlier post, where he "spoke PUBLICLY FOR
YEARS about our SECRET amenity".
But, contradictions are no problem in George's world, just like guilt
by association. First you're guilty because you are "good buddies"
with me. Now you are talking Bob Evans' line. The idea that there
are more agendas in this town than George's and the developer's just
doesn't fit comfortably into George's world. In his mind there can't
be your agenda, my agenda, his agenda etc. If you're not on George's
side you're with the developer.
And of course, as we all know, George speaks for all the residents.
(except you and me, I suppose, since we're on the developer's side)
That's how he can post the following:
"To the residents of Harmony, the people elected to represent them
serve not only to put a stop to these abuses by the developer but also
to help implement amenities that were promised but never delivered by
the developer."
How does he know this? Did he take take a poll? He never says. Who
exactly (other than himself) are "the residents"? He never says.
Since you and I don't agree with him, we know there are some who he
does not speak for. We must assume that only a person whose brain is
a little loose would make such a blanket statement without at least a
few names of those who espouse this position. Additionally, George
previously posted that the election was just a popularity contest,
which he couldn't win. (Nothing about why anyone who runs would be
more popular the George, but that's a separate issue.) If the
election was just a popularity contest, then the board members were
elected because people like them, not on any platform of developer
accountability. And, as I recall, (I'm only working from memory
here. As George mentioned, the search function isn't working right
now.) Building amenities was never a campaign issue for any
candidate. Now, suddenly, they were elected (according to George) to
do just that.
That said, you didn't do George justice on being wrong. He asked for
examples (plural), you only listed the latest one. There are numerous
others that demonstrate that George gets it wrong a good portion of
the time, so I'll help out and list a couple, so George will feel
better. Here's one from his post about the last CDD meeting.
His words:
"Something else of interest happened at the end of the meeting. David
Leeman was there and he actually spoke up, not about opening up the
horses amenity of course, but about a problem on the basketball courts
(flooding I think). What was surprising is that he went out of his
way
to spell his name properly for the record. Good for you Dave!"

We'll leave aside the fact that horses are not managed by the CDD
board, so naturally I wouldn't bring them up at this meeting, because
(see above) George has admitted he's too stupid to understand this.
I didn't "speak up" about the basketball courts. The basketball court
issue was brought up by Todd H. as part of his report. After he
spoke, Nancy Snyder (meeting chair person) asked me a question to
which I replied "yes" (twice). What I actually spoke up about (much
later, during resident comments) was the statement made by Mr
Lemenager that the CDD has a number of un-funded capital projects
which we need to save up for. This would be a significant issue since
it would directly affect the taxes in Harmony (meaning raise them). I
asked: what are those projects, how much will they cost, and are they
mandatory? As it turns out, there is only one capital project, the
finishing of the water main, and it is fully funded. Mr Lemenager was
voicing his opinion that the CDD is supposed to save up for, then
build and pay for, amenities in new neighborhoods to entice people to
live (or work) there. This opinion is not shared by other board
members, and when discussed, one of the gentlemen from the CDD
management company stated that it is customary for the developer to
build those amenities (the same way the developer built the pools and
parks we now have) and then turn them over to the CDD to manage.
So I did speak up, but on a completely different, and in my opinion
far more important, issue than George says I did. Just another
example of George getting it wrong. He was sitting right there, less
than 20 feet away from me. How could he get this wrong? I guess he
was there, but his brain was somewhere else.
George also posted Google satellite pictures of an 18 acre pasture and
said it was over a hundred acres. Obviously wrong.
George posted that the horses were secret. Wrong again.
Let's now go to George's latest post where he says this:
"a tree from my back yard was installed in the dog park. I also
believe that neither the new facilities at Lake Shore Park nor the
activities director would have been
implemented when they were, had Shad Tome not been actively monitoring
this forum."
First, the "tree from my back yard" was planted by George, not in his
back yard, but on CDD property. When the CDD was notified, not by
George, but by his next door neighbor, they removed it. Since it was
a perfectly good tree, and dog park users had recently asked for some
shade, it went there. I heard that this tree was part of a dispute
with his neighbor, and that the neighbor is the one who asked to have
it removed. This as all hearsay, but it conflicts with George's
contention that "As a direct result of my efforts... a tree from my
back yard was installed in the dog park". Maybe George can post all
of his e-mail records showing how he generously donated this tree to
the CDD, and we can thank him for his kindness.

So let's sum up.
George posts that the election is just a popularity contest. Then he
later says board members were elected on a platform no one ran on.
George posts a statement about "the residents of Harmony..." as if the
residents all have the same agenda, he knows what it is, and he
speaks for them.
George posts that we should hold the developer accountable, and also
that we should not hold them accountable.
George posts that anyone who is a friend of Dave's is on the
developer's side.
George posts statements that are wrong.


Jim, you have to admit, anyone who's that wacky we should not be angry
at. Try to cut George a little slack.

On Jul 29, 9:50 pm, "Jim Warren" <j...@jj-telecoms.com> wrote:
> George,
>
> think, seehttp://tinyurl.com/da8yzw), but realistically what we can
> think, seehttp://tinyurl.com/da8yzw), but realistically what we can
> > read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Geo

unread,
Jul 31, 2009, 11:29:48 PM7/31/09
to gg
You make it very hard to remain cordial Dave, but as I have stated before, I
refuse to stoop to your level and I won't.

This tag teaming is certainly getting tiresome (I will reply to Jim soon),
but I must persevere alone here Dave while our mutual neighbors keep
reminding me what kind of a person you really are behind your back. I am
certainly not happy that they continue to remain silent after all of this.
But there is nothing I can do to persuade them to repeat openly what they
have told me privately. I know it makes me look totally alone here. So all I
can do is hope that someday people reading this will come to understand the
truth as it really was.

You know, your malice is quite unbecoming Dave. Yet there is something more.
I am grasping for the right word, but I am not quite sure what it is. How
can I capture your self-satisfied dishonesty, your slimy way of
reinterpreting the facts to suit your own ends? The first word that springs
to mind is smarmy. I think it suits you. I am sorry, but my cordiality goes
only so far.

You also seem to revel in the attack when you and Jim are piling on
together. Readers can clearly imagine the smirk on your face as you type
away. I would hate to see what you might do in a mob.

Dave, your writing style is so atrocious that I am sick and tired of having
to slog through it. I am glad that we are nearing the end of this dialog.
And no one will be happier than me when it is all over.

So I will refute just one of your latest misstatements.

"a tree from my back yard was installed in the dog park. .. Maybe George can
post all of his e-mail records showing how he ... donated this tree to the
CDD"

Contrary to your implication, I have the emails and I can post them (see the
attachment below in reverse chronology, email addresses were removed for
privacy and line spacing was added for readability).

The tree was in my backyard and it was my choice to donate it. I had never
mentioned this to anyone until your friend Jim tried to question my
contributions to this community. The hundreds of hours I have spent
documenting the facts about Harmony is just part of it.

You see Dave, since I am not the liar that you and Jim have repeatedly tried
to make me out to be, I can document my claims. People who have the truth on
their side can generally do this.

Again, it is my opinion David that you are a very small man lacking honor
and integrity. You will say anything in defense of your wife without regard
for the truth.

It is clear for all to see that you are totally lacking credibility.
Email Exchange.txt

Jim Warren

unread,
Aug 1, 2009, 9:16:47 AM8/1/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com
Oh George give it a rest. You don’t have to keep responding. It is not a
case of the last post wins.

We have all made our points (reason for a forum), now let the "Others" make
their own mind up.

How many changes to your point do you want to make?

To be honest if you post again, I will only respond to attacks against me or
people I believe you are attacking in a way that is unbecoming for the
forum, as I have made my point.

And if I have to respond in such a way it will be my last, and I will
encourage "others" who have grown tired of the posting to do the same.

In fact, any or all of these discussions are better helped in person at an
informal gathering, say after a CDD meeting or neighborhood watch meeting.

A meeting of neighbors and minds, like it use to be done. No hiding and
sniping via email.

So respond if you have anything new to say or adios!!

Jim

Geo

unread,
Aug 2, 2009, 8:19:14 PM8/2/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com
When reviewing this material on the groups site, I noticed that when
downloaded, the email exchange text is almost unreadable because line breaks
were not preserved during the upload process.

A graphic version of the same text is attached.

The emails appear in reverse chronological order. The first email starts on
page 4.


-----Original Message-----
From: Harm...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Harm...@googlegroups.com]On
Behalf Of Geo
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 11:30 PM
To: gg
Email Exchange Page 1.JPG
Email Exchange Page 2.JPG
Email Exchange Page 3.JPG
Email Exchange Page 4.JPG
Email Exchange Page 5.JPG

Dave Leeman

unread,
Aug 2, 2009, 10:16:47 PM8/2/09
to HarmonyFL
How awesome you are George! Not only am I dishonetst, but I'm self
satisfied about it. And I have a slimy way of reinterpreting the
facts to suit my own ends. Powerful words. Let's go over my post and
your reply and see who is twisting the facts and who writes the
truth. Here are my words:
"First, the "tree from my back yard" was planted by George, not in his
back yard, but on CDD property. When the CDD was notified, not by
George, but by his next door neighbor, they removed it. Since it was a
perfectly good tree, and dog park users had recently asked for some
shade, it went there. I heard that this tree was part of a dispute
with his neighbor, and that the neighbor is the one who asked to have
it removed. This as all hearsay, but it conflicts with George's
contention that "As a direct result of my efforts... a tree from my
back yard was installed in the dog park". "
Here is part of your response:
"The tree was in my backyard and it was my choice to donate it.
Here are the words from your e-mail to Greg Golgowski:
"This means that my tree is indeed a little more than 6 feet onto CDD
property. This I acknowledge, assuming that the recent measurements by
the CDD surveyor are accurate."

So your e-mail to Mr Golgowski (in June 2007) says that the tree was
planted on CDD property. When I correctly point that out, you accuse
me of being dishonest and write (in 2009) that the tree was in your
back yard. Who is "reinterpreting the facts"?

Next, I wrote that the story was that it was a dispute with your
neighbor, but it was only hearsay, so I wasn't sure. Here are your e-
mail words:

"As you know (and unknown to me), my next door neighbors, Charles and
Rebecca Graef, complained to the Harmony CDD with information about
the location of a tree in my backyard (or what I thought was my
backyard). The Graefs claimed that I planted the tree on CDD
property. I don't have access to the CDD minutes, so I will have to
assume that the Graefs neglected to provided all of the information
about this matter that may be relevant to the CDD."

So your neighbor complained to the CDD board, and you say they
"neglected to provide all of the information about this matter that
may be relevant to the CDD."
That suggests a dispute to me, and you don't say in your post that
there was no dispute. So what facts am I reinterpreting here?

Now here are your words regarding your "donation" of the tree.

"I would like to propose that I make a donation of this beautiful
little elm tree to the CDD. I would hope that the CDD would see fit to
leave it where it is."

"Regarding my offer to donate the tree, it was sincere. Of course, I
had hoped that you and the CDD would reconsider removing the tree,
given the facts of this matter. I do understand that the CDD does not
want to set precedent, but I also would have thought that the CDD
would want to do the right thing considering that I was misled by my
Harmony Development approved builder about my actual property line
(and by the CDD's own lawn maintenance practices), not to mention that
you yourself led me to believe that if my next door neighbor was not
going to make any further issue of it (and this much he said to me)
the tree could stay where it is."

"I would like to ask that you consider moving the tree to the other
side of the pond where we can still see it."

So, George, your e-mails state that you want to donate the tree, but
hope that they would "leave it where it is". That your offer is
sincere, but you hope that "the tree could stay where it is." When
the CDD refused to leave it where you planted it, you asked that they
"consider moving the tree to the other side of the pond where we can
still see it."

They refused to do that either, and put it in the dog park. Now you
come out with your list of things you've done to make Harmony better,
and one of those things is "As a direct result of my efforts... a tree
from my back yard was installed in the dog park". Seems to me that
the tree was planted in the dog park in spite of your efforts (to keep
it where it was, or at least where you could see it) not because of
them. Please explain to me how exactly I am "reinterpreting the
facts" in this case. Please explain to me how your post refutes
anything at all that I have written about this matter. Please explain
how claiming that, "As a direct result of my efforts... a tree from my
back yard was installed in the dog park" is NOT twisting the facts to
suit your own ends.


On Aug 2, 8:19 pm, "Geo" <IIDIMGRLA...@spammotel.com> wrote:
> When reviewing this material on the groups site, I noticed that when
> downloaded, the email exchange text is almost unreadable because line breaks
> were not preserved during the upload process....
>
> read more »
>
>  Email Exchange Page 1.JPG
> 173KViewDownload
>
>  Email Exchange Page 2.JPG
> 161KViewDownload
>
>  Email Exchange Page 3.JPG
> 203KViewDownload
>
>  Email Exchange Page 4.JPG
> 267KViewDownload
>
>  Email Exchange Page 5.JPG
> 144KViewDownload
> George posts that the election is just a- Hide quoted text -

Geo

unread,
Aug 2, 2009, 11:35:41 PM8/2/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com
First Jim, I must say that enumerating your points is a very good idea. It
definitely makes your responses easier to follow. I may adopt a similar
approach when responding in the future. Perhaps Dave can consider doing the
same.

Before responding to each of your points below, I will respond to just one
statement from a more recent post "How many changes to your point do you
want to make?". I have made no changes to any of my points. If you
misunderstand some of them, that is entirely another matter.

1. "This was brought up last year and clearly stated that the Golf course
and Harmony share these ponds for drainage."

IMHO, this is a crock. The Harmony Golf Preserve has upwards of two dozen
ponds. They are among the main visual features of the golf course. The golf
course is owned by the developer. The developer does not share revenues from
the golf course with the Harmony CDD. So the developer can use those
revenues to maintain their own ponds. Yes, the golf course is an important
amenity. But again, it belongs to the developer not to Harmony residents.

"Is this your first experience with a CDD George?"

Yep, so what's your point? It's my first experience with a CDD, my first
experience with a marriage, my first experience as a father, my first
experience living in Central Florida, and so on. Are you suggesting that
some people have no right to express an opinion on topics related their
first experiences?

But I am not alone in this view of the CDD Jim. In fact, while I was making
Sunday dinner today, I took the opportunity to ask my son to do a cursory
poll of the neighborhood today.

Dave recently posted this:

'"To the residents of Harmony, the people elected to represent them [on the
Harmony CDD] serve not only to put a stop to these abuses by the developer
[eg. using CDD taxes to maintain golf course ponds, etc.], but also to help
implement amenities that were promised but never delivered by the
developer."

(I added brackets for clarity).

How does he know this? Did he take take a poll? He never says. Who
exactly (other than himself) are "the residents"? He never says.'

The opinion I expressed above is common sense. That was my assumption when I
wrote it.

What are the results of the poll? I must admit that I was surprised.

My son says that he visited about 75 homes today. Of those, only about 25
people answered the door. Of those, only 14 were willing to offer an opinion
on this subject. Of those 14, only one responded "I disagree". And that one
person also responded "I agree"! In other words, she has conflicting
feelings on this issue. Every other person who offered an opinion responded
"I agree".

So I would say that it is pretty safe to conclude that you and Dave (and I
assume Kerul too) are in the minority among residents about the purpose of
the Harmony CDD and its elected supervisors.


2. "Show me where Dave or Kerul have stated they have been negotiating for
the past 3 years. You are making this shit up George."

You must be kidding Jim. As Dave has mentioned more than once recently, he
claimed to first speak about the horse issue with the developer on behalf of
all Harmony residents in late 2005 or early 2006:

"We have several times tried to explain that it is in everybody's interest
to have more horses, not less, and each time were shot down."

So unless Dave has ceased his negotiations with the developer on behalf of
Harmony residents (which he has never stated, AFAIK), Dave has actually been
doing so for more than 3 years. Of course all of this presupposes that Dave
really has been negotiating with the developer on this issue. But this is
something that is not actually supported by any independently verifiable
evidence.


3. "You lie George, the developer lies. Everyone lies. Stop crying about
it."

I don't lie Jim. Please stop claiming that I do. But I do find it funny that
while apparently everyone else lies, you left yourself and Dave off of the
liars list. Why's that?


4. "Show me in your contract where Harmony or the developer is under
contract to provide what you are stating. If it is not there, there is no
obligation. The only obligation in your mind is what you read from a leaflet
6 years ago."

On this particular point Jim, I couldn't disagree with you more as I think I
have written before. While I don't have the amenities in my contract (I wish
I did), they were extensively documented in more than just one leaflet 6
years ago. They were documented in leaflets, multi-page high quality
brochures, promotional videos, VHS tapes, CDs and an entire website. So
let's stop belittling this point Jim, OK?


5. "I have seen you shouted down at least 3 times."

As I said, I don't remember this. Perhaps what you consider shouting I
don't. Some people express opposing points of view, but that's certainly OK
with me.


6. "My point exactly. YOU think."

Yes I do and so do many others. You should try it sometime. ;0)


7. "You start to get nasty and begin your personal attacks when people
disagree with you George."

It's really too bad that you are so put off by the occasional sarcastic dig,
but what do you expect when you write stuff like "Be a man"?


8. "You accused them of something, yet provided no evidence. Therefore you
told an untruth. What's illogical about that. Oh yeah, Georges world."

Your illogic lies in your insistence that I should prove a negative. And you
must be living in Dave's World if you can't see that there not a shred of
evidence that he or Kerul or any of the others have done anything for anyone
but themselves.


9. "It does not hurt for you to admit once in a while"

No it doesn't. That's why I have done so.


10. "But the Fire Station was delivered"

But not by the developer, of course. It's not really the developer's place
to talk up community benefits that are really beyond its control, right Jim?
It not honest, just like my builder claiming that a Publix would be in
Harmony by 2006. What a joke that was!


11. "But you're not making it better George are you?"

On the contrary, I believe that telling the truth does make it better. The
more that potential buyers know, the sooner the developer will make
improvements. Continuing to lie to potential buyers is not the way Jim.


12. "I believe it should be a private enterprise, and not a cost to
residents through taxes, but a cost to residents who wish to use it."

This is an acceptable option as well. Let's try to get it done Jim.


13. "You think that is the definition of being a man? That you talk to
people?"

Nope, I guess you misunderstood me Jim. Talk does not make a man, action
does. And speaking up truthfully for what is right in this or any other
forum in the face of any opposition is a legitimate form of action. While I
am no reporter, it is none-the-less the action of a free press.


14. "But I don’t think Shad Tome monitoring this forum was the prime reason
for the activities Director,
and the lakeshore development."

I didn't claim primacy Jim. I claimed that Shad's reading of this forum for
months must have had an influence.


15. "I have helped the conservation club plant trees, and monitor species. I
have made some input with Shad ..."

I have helped to add various plants around Birchwood pond. I have also
cleaned litter on its bank several times. My sons have helped with various
events including pulling cattails at Lakeshore park. I have also had
extensive negotiations with Shad Tome about the items detailed in "Open
Response to Fuzzy Wuzzy" posted a year ago ( see
http://tinyurl.com/m26qab ), the third of which has already been tried. So I
don't really think that you are in any position to judge my contributions to
Harmony Jim. I also smile and greet people cordially Jim, even you.

The only thing that I don't do is suggest that others move to Harmony until
the developer lives up to its promises.

Geo

unread,
Aug 3, 2009, 12:11:34 AM8/3/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com
Dave, I think that you have a slanted view of things.

I believe that people who read the entire email exchange between myself and
Greg Golgowski on the subject of the offending tree will come away
understanding what really happened.

Will they think that I originally intended to place the tree in the dog
park? No.

Will they believe that I really thought that the tree was in my backyard.
Yes.

Will they believe that I tried my best to keep the tree for the benefit of
my own family? Of course. Most people will understand that this is normal.

Will they believe that I was fair and reasonable when Greg indicated that
the tree must be moved? Yes.

Will they believe that I could have withdrawn my offer of the tree and not
had it installed in the dog park? Yes.

Everything that happened is normal among adults putting forth honest effort
to resolve a problem.

It is only you who is trying to make it seem abnormal somehow. But more
significantly, once again you are missing the big picture Dave.

The real point of my post is that I was able to produce the emails (upon
your request) that prove what actually transpired with my negotiations with
the developer.

Why can't you do the same?

Jim Warren

unread,
Aug 3, 2009, 9:04:42 AM8/3/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com
George,

1. What question did you son actually ask George?
b. Did you know your actions could have possibly resulted in your son being
arrested for breaking the solicitation law.
c. The reasoning behind the spraying of ponds(not maintenance) was answered
in a fair and logical way at that meeting. Would you prefer the streets to
flood every time it rains?

2. Read your responses George. You complain Dave has no proof he has not
tried to get others in the Horse field, then you shoot me down at my
response below and syas he has been negotiating??? Which is it George?

3. Are we not everyone George? Do I have to name everyone, and put "except
George, he does not lie> I think with the latest Tree email you have shown
that you certainly don’t speak the truth about something's.

4. Not belittling, just stating that most of those amenities have been
provided, But things change, and I and dozens of other residents are tired
of your postings about it. Yes we know your feelings, but beating them
around day in day out is pointless in the forum.

6. I don’t find this funny. Again George you show when you are wrong you try
and be-little others. Maybe you should stop and think from time to time.

7. George, a sarcastic dig, is not called for in a supposedly adult forum.
Just state your facts, accept the argument and move on. Being sarcastic when
you don’t agree with a persons point, shows immaturity. Hence my post
stating be a man or grow up. It was not sarcastic it was part of the point
of the response.

8. If you cant provide a truthful response, then don’t respond or post about
something you cannot back up. Again, who is going to agree with you and
help, if you consistently make these stories up from hearsay and rumor?

9. Really?

10. But on land donated by the developer, you forgot to add, like the
school. Again you are quoting what your builder told you? That's the joke
George. I bet your builder said he used the best materials to build your
home too eh?? If you believe that and are basing your facts on what your
builder told you, then this debate is over.

11. I give up on making this point, as you have no logical pattern to your
argument. Think what you want on it George. Continue to make enemies, and
insult the developer. Continue to scare of buyers. Lets see what you think
when all our homes are worthless, because no one came to buy a home here, as
you scared them off with stories.....

12. I have no desire to do so, as I stated. I am not a horse person. I ma
sure there are people more qualified than I to do this kind of project. But
why have you changed tack? You wanted the CDD to do it, or the developer?
You wanted to do it via taxes. Go ahead George.

13. Again, I am not arguing the point only stating that you said " I am a
man...." I just clarified my position in that I did not see that as a
definition of one. Your take is yours, but going around telling untruths (I
did not say lies), stirring up hatred, and speaking out against your
neighbors who have done nothing wrong is not the definition. Now you send
your kids out to conduct a poll? Why didn't you do it yourself?

14. Again we differ, but that's the point of a forum

15. What? Of course that is what you suggest. You state it in your posts
that people should not move here. You state it by talking to the press, and
posting. You may not say it directly, but your words would be interpreted to
potential buyers as a "don’t come to Harmony" speech. How can you say such a
thing?

Jim Warren

unread,
Aug 3, 2009, 9:19:53 AM8/3/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com
George, you stated that you had donated the tree in an earlier email
exchange with me (As a direct result of my efforts a tree from my back yard
was installed in the dog park). As in someway this made you a great
contributor to Harmony. You cannot deny this.

When in "truth" you should have said that you had a problem with a neighbor
regarding a tree in your backyard, and the CDD requested it be moved from
CDD property. You wanted it moved where you could still see it, but that was
not possible, so Greg suggested it get moved to the dog park, and with your
agreement it was moved. How was this a direct result of your efforts? In
truth you were against it going anywhere near the dog park. In fact it was
an INDIRECT Result of your efforts.

Can you not see the difference in what you stated, as to the actualities of
what really happened?
If not, then it does explain a lot about your posts.

gad...@aol.com

unread,
Aug 3, 2009, 9:51:58 AM8/3/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com
However george "donated" tree or not is not impacting community as is the fact that some people have excludively been given more than 100 acres of land for their personal use.  
Kathy Ball 



-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Warren <j...@jj-telecoms.com>
To: Harm...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Aug 3, 2009 9:19 am
Subject: [HarmonyFL:542] Re: Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Holding Developer Accountable


George, you stated that you had donated the tree in an earlier email
exchange with me (As a direct result of my efforts a tree from my back yard
was installed in the dog park). As in someway this made you a great
contributor to Harmony. You cannot deny this.

When in "truth" you should have said that you had a problem with a neighbor
regarding a tree in your backyard, and the CDD requested it be moved from
CDD property. You wanted it moved where you could still see it, but that was
not possible, so Greg suggested it get moved to the dog park, and with your
agreement it was moved. How was this a direct result of your efforts? In
truth you were against it going anywhere near the dog park. In fact it was
an INDIRECT Result of your efforts.

Can you not see the difference in what you stated, as to the actualities20of
what really happened?
If not, then it does explain a lot about your posts.



-----Original Message-----
From: Harm...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Harm...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Geo
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:12 AM
To: Harm...@googlegroups.com

> Behalf Of Dave Leeman
> Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 3:03 PM
> To: HarmonyFL
> Subject: [HarmonyFL:534] Re: Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Holding
> Developer Accountable
>
> Hey Jim, you really need to lighten up on George.  You're being much
> too hard on him in your latest post.  After all, while most of us
> regular Joes (and Janes) understand that the CDD is just managing the
> infrastructure, when I asked George if he was too stupid to understand
> these things, he said he was.  So since he is too stupid to "get it",
> you need to cut him some slack on this one.
> After all, if his brain worked,20he wouldn't say in one sentence that
> we need to hold the developer accountable (which would mean the
> developer built and paid for the promised amenities) and in the next
> he wants to tax the residents to pay for and build the amenities.  If
> the residents build and pay for the amenities, the developer is off
> the hook.  Kind of like his earlier post, where he "spoke PUBLICLY FOR
> YEARS about our SECRET amenity".
> But, contradictions are no problem in George's world, just like guilt
> by association.  First you're guilty because you are "good buddies"
> with me.  Now you are talking Bob Evans' line.  The idea that there
> are more agendas in this town than George's and the developer's just
> doesn't fit comfortably into George's world.  In his mind there can't
> be your agenda, my agenda, his agenda etc.  If you're not on George's
> side you're with the developer.
> And of course, as we all know, George speaks for all the residents.
> (except you and me, I suppose, since we're on the developer's side)
> That's how he can post the following:
> "To the residents of Harmony, the people elected to represent them
> serve not only to put a stop to these abuses by the developer but also
> to help implement amenities that were promised but never delivered by
> the developer."
>  How does he know this?  Did he take take a poll?  He never sa
ys.  Who
> exactly (other than himself) are "the residents"?  He never says.
> Since you and I don't agree with him, we know there are some who he
> does not speak for.  We must assume that only a person whose brain is
> a little loose would make such a blanket statement without at least a
> few names of those who espouse this position.  Additionally, George
> previously posted that the election was just a popularity contest,
> which he couldn't win.  (Nothing about why anyone who runs would be
> more popular the George, but that's a separate issue.)  If the
> election was just a popularity contest, then the board members were
> elected because people like them, not on any platform of developer
> accountability.  And, as I recall, (I'm only working from memory
> here.  As George mentioned, the search function isn't working right
> now.) Building amenities was never a campaign issue for any
> candidate.  Now, suddenly, they were elected (according to George) to
> do just that.
> That said, you didn't do George justice on being wrong.  He asked for
> examples (plural), you only listed the latest one.  There are numerous
> others that demonstrate that George gets it wrong a good portion of
> the time, so I'll help out and list a couple, so George will feel
> better.  Here's one from his post about the last CDD meeting.
> His words:
> "Somethi
ng else of interest happened at the end of the meeting. David
> Leeman was there and he actually spoke up, not about opening up the
> horses amenity of course, but about a problem on the basketball courts
> (flooding I think). What was surprising is that he went out of his
> way
> to spell his name properly for the record. Good for you Dave!"
>
> We'll leave aside the fact that horses are not managed by the CDD
> board, so naturally I wouldn't  bring them up at this meeting, because
> (see above) George has admitted he's too stupid to understand this.
> I didn't "speak up" about the basketball courts.  The basketball court
> issue was brought up by Todd H. as part of his report.  After he
> spoke, Nancy Snyder (meeting chair person) asked me a question to
> which I replied "yes" (twice).  What I actually spoke up about (much
> later, during resident comments) was the statement made by Mr
> Lemenager that the CDD has a number of un-funded capital projects
> which we need to save up for.  This would be a significant issue since
> it would directly affect the taxes in Harmony (meaning raise them).  I
> asked: what are those projects, how much will they cost, and are they
> mandatory?  As it turns out, there is only one capital project, the
> finishing of the water main, and it is fully funded.  Mr Lemenager was
> voicing his opinion that the CDD20is supposed to save up for, then
> build and pay for, amenities in new neighborhoods to entice people to
> live (or work) there.  This opinion is not shared by other board
> members, and when discussed, one of the gentlemen from the CDD
> management company stated that it is customary for the developer to
> build those amenities (the same way the developer built the pools and
> parks we now have) and then turn them over to the CDD to manage.
> So I did speak up, but on a completely different, and in my opinion
> far more important, issue than George says I did.  Just another
> example of George getting it wrong.  He was sitting right there, less
> than 20 feet away from me.  How could he get this wrong?  I guess he
> was there, but his brain was somewhere else.
> George also posted Google satellite pictures of an 18 acre pasture and
> said it was over a hundred acres.  Obviously wrong.
> George posted that the horses were secret.  Wrong again.
> Let's now go to George's latest post where he says this:
> "a tree from my back yard was installed in the dog park. I also
> believe that neither the new facilities at Lake Shore Park nor the
> activities director would have been
> implemented when they were, had Shad Tome not been actively monitoring
> this forum."
> First, the "tree from my back yard" was planted by George, not in his
> back=2
0yard, but on CDD property.  When the CDD was notified, not by
> George, but by his next door neighbor, they removed it.  Since it was
> a perfectly good tree, and dog park users had recently asked for some
> shade, it went there.  I heard that this tree was part of a dispute
> with his neighbor, and that the neighbor is the one who asked to have
> it removed.  This as all hearsay, but it conflicts with George's
> contention that "As a direct result of my efforts... a tree from my
> back yard was installed in the dog park".  Maybe George can post all
> of his e-mail records showing how he generously donated this tree to
> the CDD, and we can thank him for his kindness.
>
> So let's sum up.
> George posts that the election is just a- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Jim Warren

unread,
Aug 3, 2009, 10:20:40 AM8/3/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com

Kathy,

 

 No one is suggesting the tree had an impact. Please read the thread.

 

How is the horse field impacting the community Kathy? Other than creating jealously of some people who were not included in the original deal for whatever reason?

I was not in on the “deal”, but I accept the fact I was not. Good luck to those who were or had the opportunity to do so. All brought about because of a perfectly good facility being taken away.

 

However, if I was around at the time, and had a horse, would I have wanted in? Yes sure I would.

If I came along  later with a horse. Would I be jealous or upset that I can’t board my horse here? Yes sure I would.

Would I take up a personal vendetta against the people who have the facility. NO!!!

Take it up with the developer. Don’t make out the people who were fortunate enough to be here at the time and given this facility on a basis which restricted anymore horses. It’s not their fault.

Take it up with the company that provided the facility with the exclusivity.

That’s all I’m saying. Lets stop the bleating, name calling and childish reactions to those who have the deal, and concentrate the attack on the facility provider.

 

 

Jim

gad...@aol.com

unread,
Aug 3, 2009, 10:51:03 AM8/3/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com
you really don't know all the circumstances .  I was here when this began, I have one of the original PMU mares. I chose to move my horse early on because of the poor mangement of the facility and because i knew it was temporary.   I was not included in the negotiations of the current agreement although i am an original resident and have an original horse.  there were others in the same position as me who have left the community.  i'm sorry i didn't have the luxury to move also, but i had just bought a new home and could not afford to sell and buy another home.  I heard alot of hearsay about meetings (since i wasn't privy to be at them) that i have not voiced here because it was hearsay.  but people who told me were reputable people who still agree this is a wrong deal but are done with the developer and harmony and as i said some have even moved.  Many people don't know that the original field was a temporary field and how some can stay for hardship reasons and others cannot benefit from the hardship principal is beyond me. Its more than just jealousy it is unjust and has driven some people away from harmony and has also taken away the desire for community involvement for some that have stayed.  I agree with much of what george says and so do many of my neighbors.  And the new residients who have horses can't join in some community activities because of the commute to their horses and the time they must spend off harmony to20care for them. 

Kathy Ball


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Warren <j...@jj-telecoms.com>
To: Harm...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Aug 3, 2009 10:20 am
Subject: [HarmonyFL:544] Re: Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Holding Developer Accountable

Kathy,
 
 No one is suggesting the tree had an impact. Please read the thread.
 
How is the horse field impacting the community Kathy? Other than creating jealously of some people who were not included in the original deal for whatever reason?
I was not in on the “deal”, but I accept the fact I was not. Good luck to those who were or had the opportunity to d o so. All brought about because of a perfectly good facility being taken away.
 
However, if I was around at the time, and had a horse, would I have wanted in? Yes sure I would.
If I came along  later with a horse. Would I be jealous or upset that I can’t board my horse here? Yes sure I would.
Would I take up a personal vendetta against the people who have the facility. NO!!!
Take it up with the developer. Don’t make out the people who were fortunate enough to be here at the time and given this facility on a basis which restricted anymore horses. It’s not their fault.
Take it up with the company that provided the facility with the exclusivity.
That’s all I’m saying. Lets stop the bleating, name calli ng and childish reactions to those who have the deal, and concentrate the attack on the facility provider.
 
 
Jim
 
From: Harm...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Harm...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of gad...@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:52 AM
To: Harm...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [HarmonyFL:543] Re: Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Holding Developer Accountable
 
However george "donated" tree or not is not impacting community as is the fact that some people have excludively been given more than 100 acres of land for their personal use.  
Kathy Ball 


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Warren <j...@jj-telecoms.com>
To: Harm...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Aug 3, 2009 9:19 am
Subject: [HarmonyFL:542] Re: Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Holding Developer Accountable
 
George, you stated that you had donated the tree in an earlier email
exchange with me (As a direct result of my efforts a tree from my back yard
was installed in the dog park). As in someway this made you a great
contributor to Harmony. You cannot deny this.
 
When in "truth" you should have said that you had a problem with a neighbor
regarding a tree in your backyard, and the CDD requested it be moved from
CDD property. You wanted it moved20where you could still see it, but that was

<  SPAN style="COLOR: black">there was no dispute.  So what facts am I reinterpreting here?

&
gt; 

>  Email Exchange Page 1.JPG
> 173KViewDownload
>  Email Exchange Page 2.JPG
> 161KViewDownload
>  Email Exchange Page 3.JPG
> 203KViewDownload
>  Email Exchange Page 4.JPG
> 267KView
Download
>  Email Exchange Page 5.JPG
> 144KViewDownload
> A graphic version of the same text is attached.

< PRE style="BACKGROUND: white">

gad...@aol.com

unread,
Aug 3, 2009, 10:59:47 AM8/3/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com
Concentrate the attack on the facility provider??  How is that done you can't bring it up in the CDD or the HOA.. The people who are boarded on harmony aren't helping to begin a facility  would you give up over 100 acres of land for free to start paying for a boarding facility everyone could use??.... and i can't even make any  meetings because i'm not even in harmony except to walk my dogs and go to bed.  I don't have the luxury of not working and i have to drive 17 mi one way to my horse on weekends.  Bob Evans quieted the scarey squeakey wheel so now he doesn't have to listen to any others...he supposedly saw a threat and stopped it with a free 100+ acres, who by the way, now one of the members is "repersenting" us on the CDD.

Kathy Bsll


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Warren <j...@jj-telecoms.com>
To: Harm...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Aug 3, 2009 10:20 am
Subject: [HarmonyFL:544] Re: Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Holding Developer Accountable

Kathy,
 
 No one is suggesting the tree had an impact. Please read the thread.
 
How is the horse field impacting the community Kathy? Other than creating jealously of some people who were not included in the original deal for whatever reason?
I was not in on the “deal”, but I accept the fact I was not. Good luck to those who were or had the opportunity to do so. All brought about because of a perfectly good facility being taken away.
 
However, if I was around at the time, and had a horse, would I have wanted in? Yes sure I would.
If I came along  later with a horse. Would I be jealous or upset that I can’t board my horse here? Yes sure I would.
Wou ld I take up a personal vendetta against the people who have the facility. NO!!!
it removed.=2
0This as all hearsay, but it conflicts with George's
> the hook.  Kind of l
ike his earlier post, where he "spoke PUBLICLY FOR
>20implemented when they were, had Shad Tome not been actively monitoring

Jim Warren

unread,
Aug 3, 2009, 11:21:11 AM8/3/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com

Because the CDD and HOA are not responsible for this. The Developer is……………….

 

You are “barking” up the wrong tree Kathy. You have been directed incorrectly.

 

Again, why should the people who have the use of the field be responsible for the exclusivity?

 If it were you, what would you do?

Jim Warren

unread,
Aug 3, 2009, 11:26:07 AM8/3/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com

Yet you still don’t know who is responsible for the agreement????????

So you think George is right to attack those that did make it their business to get a facility for the one that was taken away…

The responsibility for your inaction should not be the responsibility of others that acted.

Come on…….. if you really wanted it, you would be in discussions with the developer. How many times have you contacted them to ask about the facility?

 

I am not saying George is wrong to want the facility for all. No one is saying that at all.

But attacking the users of the facility is not the right way to go about it.

They have their horses to think about, in the same way you have.

You stated “ I chose to move my horse early on because of the poor mangement of the facility” No one else can be held responsible for your decision. It was what you believed was right at the time. But you can’t come back and attack others that stayed, and benefitted from a decision made later. How can that be unjust? It may not be fair, but the decision was made at the time.

You made your choice, they made theirs. It does not make them bad people, now responsible to hound the developer for a facility for all does it?

 

Why is none moaning and groaning about a town center square???? Would this not be more beneficial to more residents than a bloody horse barn???

Get real people!!

gad...@aol.com

unread,
Aug 3, 2009, 12:06:20 PM8/3/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com
Originally the cdd and hoa were the forums to bring up this matter, when it changed i don't know.  In fact the information center was the place to call for any complaints  when that changed i don't know either.   I couldn't voice my opinions originally because there were plenty of "secret" meetings that i was not even aware of.  If given the opportunity to join in the exclusive horse deal i would have done as another harmony resident declined because of the unfairness of the proposition  because it is not getting us a reputable facility and may even be hampering it since the developer has obviously quieted the squeaky wheel that matters.

At this point an equestrian facility can be sustained in harmony a town center can not. 


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Warren <j...@jj-telecoms.com>
To: Harm...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Aug 3, 2009 11:21 am
Subject: [HarmonyFL:547] Re: Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Holding Developer Accountable

Because the CDD and HOA are not responsible for this. The Developer is……………….
 
You are “barking” up the wrong tree Kathy. You have been directed incorrectly.
 
Again, why should the people who have the use of the field be responsible for the exclusivity?
 If it were you, what would you do?
 
 
 
 
&nb sp;
 
From: Harm...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Harm...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of gad...@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 11:00 AM
To: Harm...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [HarmonyFL:546] Re: Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Holding Developer Accountable
 
Concentrate the attack on the facility provider??  How is that done you can't bring it up in the CDD or the HOA.. The people who are boarded on harmony aren't helping to begin a facility  would you give up over 100 acres of land for free to start paying for a boarding facility everyone could use??.... and i can't even make any  meetings because i'm not even in harmony except to walk my dogs and go to bed.  I don't have the luxury of not working and i have to drive 17 mi one way to my horse on week ends.  Bob Evans quieted the scarey squeakey wheel so now he doesn't have to listen to any others...he supposedly saw a threat and stopped it with a free 100+ acres, who by the way, now one of the members is "repersenting" us on the CDD.


Kathy Bsll

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Warren <j...@jj-telecoms.com>
To: Harm...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Aug 3, 2009 10:20 am
Subject: [HarmonyFL:544] Re: Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Holding Developer Accountable
Kathy,
 
 No one is suggesting the tree had an impact. Please read the thread.
 
How is the horse field impacting the community Kathy? Other than creating jealously of some people who were not included in the original deal for whatever reason?
I was not in on the “deal”, but I accept the fact I was not. Good luck to those who were or had the opportunity to do so. All brought about because of a perfectly good facility being taken away.
 
However, if I was around at the time, and had a horse, would I have wanted in? Yes sure I would.
If I came along  later with a horse. Would I be jealous or upset that I can’t board my horse here? Yes sure I would.
Wou ld I take up a personal vendetta against the people who have the facility. NO!!!
Take it up with the developer. Don’t make out the people who were fortunate enough to be here at the time and given this facility on a basis which restricted anymore horses. It’s not their fault.
=0 A
Take it up with the company that provided the facility with the exclusivity.
That’s all I’m saying. Lets stop the bleating, name calling and childish reactions to those who have the deal, and concentrate the attack on the facility provider.
 
 
Jim
 
Will they believe that I tried my best to keep the tree for the benefit of<  /SPAN>
>&nbsp
;
> You also seem to revel in the attack when you and Jim are piling on
> together. Readers can clearly imagine the smirk on your face as you type
> away. I would hate to see what you might do in a mob.
> Dave, your writing style is so atrocious that I am sick and tired of
having
> to slog through it. I am glad that we are nearing the end of this dialog.
> And no one will be happier than me when it is all over.
> So I will refute just one of your latest misstatements.
> "a tree from my back yard was installed in the dog park. .. Maybe George
can
> post all of his e-mail records showing how he ... donated this tree to the
> CDD"
> Contrary to your implication, I have the emails and I can post them (see
the
> attachment below in reverse chronology, email addresses were removed for
> privacy and line spacing was added for readability).
> The tree was in my backyard and it was my choice to donate it. I had never
> mentioned this to anyone until your friend Jim tried to question my
> contributions to
 this community. The hundreds of hours I have spent
> documenting the facts about Harmony is just part of it.
>&
nbsp;
> You see Dave, since I am not the liar that you and Jim have repeatedly
tried
> to make me out to be, I can document my claims. People who have the truth
on
> their side can generally do this.
> Again, it is my opinion David that you are a very small man lacking honor
> and integrity. You w
ill say anything in defense of your wife without
regard
> for the truth.
> It is clear for all to see that you are totally lacking credibility.
> -----Original Me
ssage-----
> From: Harm...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Harm...@googlegroups.com]On
> Behalf Of Dave Leeman
> Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 3:03 PM
> To: HarmonyFL
> Subject: [HarmonyFL:534] Re: Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Holding
> Developer Accountable
> Hey Jim, you really need to lighten up on George.
  You're being much
> too hard on him in your latest post.  After all, while most of us
> regular Joes (and Janes) understand that the CDD is just managing the
> infrastructure, when I asked George if he was too stupid to understand<  /SPAN>
> these things, he said he was.  So since he is too stupid to "get it",
> you need to cut him some slack on this one.
> After all, if his brain worked,20he wouldn't say in one sentence that
> we need to hold the developer accountable (which would mean the
> developer built and paid for the promised amenities) and in the next
> he wants to tax the residents to pay for and build the amenities.  If
> the residents build and pay for the amenities, the developer is off
> the hook.  Kind of l
ike his earlier post, where he "spoke PUBLICLY FOR
> YEARS about our SECRET amenity".
> But, contradictions are no problem in George's world, just like guilt
> by association. &nb
sp;First you're guilty because you are "good buddies"
> with me.  Now you are talking Bob Evans' line.  The idea that there
> are more agendas in this town than George's and the developer's just
> doesn't fit comfortably into George's world.  In his mind there can't
> be your agenda, my agenda, his agenda etc.  If you're not on George's
> side you're with the developer.
> And of course, as we all know, George speaks for all the residents.
> (except you and me, I suppose, since we're on the developer's side)
> That's how he can post the following:
> "To the residents of Harmony, the people elected to represent them
> serve not only to put a stop to these abuses by the developer but also
> to help implement amenities that were promis
ed but never delivered by
> the developer."
>  How does he know this?  Did he take take a poll?  He never sa
ys.  Who
> exactly (other than himself) are "the residents"?  He never says.
> Since you and I don't agree with him, we know there are some who he
> does not speak for.  We must assume that only a person whose brain is
> a little loose would make such a blanket statement without at least a
> few names of those who espouse this position.  Additionally, George
> previously p
osted that the election was just a popularity contest,
> which he couldn't win.  (Nothing about why anyone who runs would be
> more popular the George, but that's a separate20issue.)  If the
> example of George getting it wrong. &
nbsp;He was sitting right there, less
> than 20 feet away from me.  How could he get this wrong?  I guess he
> was there, but his brain was somewhere else.
> George also posted Google satellite pictures of an 18 acre pasture and
> said it was over a hundred acres.  Obviously wrong.
> George posted that the horses were secret.  Wrong again.
> Let's now go to George's latest post where he says this:
> "a tree from my back yard was installed in the dog park. I also
> believe that neither the new facilities at Lake Shore Park nor the
> activities director would have been
>20implemented when they were, had Shad Tome not been actively monitoring
> this forum."
> First,=2
0the "tree from my back yard" was planted by George, not in his

gad...@aol.com

unread,
Aug 3, 2009, 12:19:37 PM8/3/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com
Ultimately the agreement was made by the developer.....but what made a multimillion dollar developer hand over a 100+ acres to a few people who requested it??  what really was behind the decision.  that's all the george wants to know and some othe people who are residents in harmony.  and why has it stagnated with just a few people and not grown to accommadate others?  as i have said before now we have enough residents in harmony with horses to fill a good size barn.  those people would take advantage of it if it was a facility that was managed well, was affordable, and had some amendaties they could use. believe me no one is asking for free land with no facilities or to infringe on the current residents  who i'm sure will retain free land even if a boarding facility was built.  why should they try and persuade the developer to build a facility?  the agreement was the responsibility of both the boarders and the developers.  the developer after much persuasion made an offer and the boarders accepted.  My inaction was due to ignorance of the situation unfolding at
 harmony at the time because i was no longer in the loop since i was caring for my horse at another facility...which was an imperative move for my horse and me because of poor management and unsafe conditions. 


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Warren <j...@jj-telecoms.com>
To: Harm...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Aug 3, 2009 11:26 am
Subject: [HarmonyFL:548] Re : Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Holding Developer Accountable

Yet you still don’t know who is responsible for the agreement????????
So you think George is right to attack those that did make it their business to get a facility for the one that was taken away…
The responsibility for your inaction should not be the responsibility of others that acted.
Come on…….. if you really wanted it, you would be in discussio ns with the developer. How many times have you contacted them to ask about the facility?
 
I am not saying George is wrong to want the facility for all. No one is saying that at all.
But attacking the users of the facility is not the right way to go about it.
They have their horses to think about, in the same way you have.
You stated “ I chose to move my horse early on because of the poor mangement of the facility” No one else can be held responsible for your decision. It was what you believed was right at the time. But you can’t come back and attack others that stayed, and benefitted from a decision made later. How can that be unjust? It may not be fair, but the decision was made at the time.
You made your choice, they made theirs. It=2 0does not make them bad people, now responsible to hound the developer for a facility for all does it?
an20INDIRECT Result of your efforts.
 
Can you not see the difference in what you stated, as to the actualities20of
what really happened?
If not, then it does explain a lot about your posts.
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Harm...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Harm...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Geo
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:12 AM
To: Harm...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [HarmonyFL:540] RE: Harmony Horse Amenity Q & A - Hold
ing Developer
Accountable
 
 
Dave, I think that you have a slanted view of things.
 
I believe that people who read the entire email exchange between myself and
Greg Golgowski on the subject of the offending tree will come away
understanding what really happened.
 
Will they think that I originally intended to place the tree in the dog
park? No.
 
Will they believe that I really thought that the tree was in my backyard.
Yes.
 
Will they believe that I tried20my best to keep the tree for the benefit of
<  TT>> 203KViewDownload
> doesn't fit comfortably into George's world.  In20his mind there can't
> be your agenda, my agenda, his agenda etc.  If you're not on George's
> side you're with the developer.
> And of course, as we all know, George speaks for all the residents.
> (except you and me, I suppose, since we're on the developer's side)
> That's how he can post the following:
> "To the residents of Harmony, the people elected to represent them
> serve not only to put a stop to these abuses by the developer but also
> to help implement amenities that were promised but never delivered by
> the developer."
>  How does he know this?  Did he take take a poll?  He never sa
ys.  Who
> exactly (other than himself) are "the residents"? &nbs
p;He never says.
> which=2
0I replied "yes" (twice).  What I actually spoke up about (much

Jim Warren

unread,
Aug 3, 2009, 12:34:04 PM8/3/09
to Harm...@googlegroups.com

At this point an equestrian facility can be sustained in harmony a town center can not. 

Can you provide information on how this could be achieved?

 

 

 


Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:06 PM
To: Harm...@googlegroups.com