Mumps, VistA HIS/CIS experts in India?
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Dr PG
Jul 30, 2009, 2:24:00 AM7/30/09
to Hardhats
Hi,
I am looking at networking with Mumps, VistA HIS/CIS experts in India.
Any pointers will help.
Rgds,
PG
I am looking at networking with Mumps, VistA HIS/CIS experts in India.
Any pointers will help.
Rgds,
PG
Bhupendra Singh Rao
Jul 30, 2009, 2:31:38 AM7/30/09
to Hard...@googlegroups.com
Respected sir
i am working on VistA / CPRS / GT.M / MUMPS programming but i have just 2 months experiance in this field but i want to work in this field. i am looking for opportunity.
thanks and regards
bhupendra singh rao
Dr PG
Jul 30, 2009, 2:53:16 AM7/30/09
to Hardhats
How long does it take for a Mumps programmer pickup VistA? I am
assuming that VistA is just another Mumps EMR. Plz validate.
Rgds,
PG
---------------------
Dr Pankaj Gupta
eHealth Business Executive
http://www.healthcareitstrategy.blogspot.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/drpankajgupta
tauru...@gmail.com
dr_pank...@yahoo.com
----------------------
Anthony Papillion
Jul 30, 2009, 2:59:25 AM7/30/09
to Hard...@googlegroups.com
Dr. PG,
I think it's more than just picking up VistA. Any competent programmer can get up and running in M enough to write VistA code and make things work. It's just code.
The bigger challenge is understanding the business rules and often complex logic that needs to be implemented when developing for VistA. That can take a lot longer depending on the programmer.
Someone once told me its easier to teach a medical person VistA programming than it is to teach a regular programmer VistA. After almost eight months of working with the code I can Definitely say it's true.
Rgds,
Anthony Papillion
OpenEMR HQ
www.openemrhq.com
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: Dr PG <tauru...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:53:16
To: Hardhats<Hard...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [Hardhats] Re: Mumps, VistA HIS/CIS experts in India?
I think it's more than just picking up VistA. Any competent programmer can get up and running in M enough to write VistA code and make things work. It's just code.
The bigger challenge is understanding the business rules and often complex logic that needs to be implemented when developing for VistA. That can take a lot longer depending on the programmer.
Someone once told me its easier to teach a medical person VistA programming than it is to teach a regular programmer VistA. After almost eight months of working with the code I can Definitely say it's true.
Rgds,
Anthony Papillion
OpenEMR HQ
www.openemrhq.com
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: Dr PG <tauru...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:53:16
To: Hardhats<Hard...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [Hardhats] Re: Mumps, VistA HIS/CIS experts in India?
Dr PG
Jul 30, 2009, 3:13:56 AM7/30/09
to Hardhats
Anthony, I hear you. Can I say a team consisting of 50% Clinical BA
and 50% Mumps programmers will do the trick? Config rules will be
written by the BA in consultation with Mumps expert.
What is a better ratio:
50% Clinical BA and 50% Mumps programmers
30% Clinical BA and 70% Mumps programmers
70% Clinical BA and 30% Mumps programmers
Rgds,
PG
and 50% Mumps programmers will do the trick? Config rules will be
written by the BA in consultation with Mumps expert.
What is a better ratio:
50% Clinical BA and 50% Mumps programmers
30% Clinical BA and 70% Mumps programmers
70% Clinical BA and 30% Mumps programmers
Rgds,
PG
Anthony Papillion
Jul 30, 2009, 3:26:34 AM7/30/09
to Hard...@googlegroups.com
Personally, and I'd like to hear others who are more experienced with this than I ring in, I think evem 20/80 is a good mix. It's best to have people who encompass both but not necessary.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 00:13:56
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 00:13:56
To: Hardhats<Hard...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [Hardhats] Re: Mumps, VistA HIS/CIS experts in India?
Subject: [Hardhats] Re: Mumps, VistA HIS/CIS experts in India?
Sumit Sharma
Jul 30, 2009, 3:31:28 AM7/30/09
to Hardhats
Hi Dr Pankaj,
If you are a clinician, then you don't need to learn MUMPS to pick up
VISTA.
In case, you want to support VISTA installation, then basics in MUMPS
would be helpful.
In case you are interested in development and adding features into
VISTA, only knowing MUMPS is not enough. You will need to understand
the architecture basics about the Kernel, FileMan, MailMan, HL7
interfaces, File (Database) structures, etc. The hardhats group has
mentioned again and again before, no individual ever knows the VISTA
completely.
In case, you want to improve the Add-Ons in VISTA, thats a different
domain on its own. The list is long and to name a very few - Open CIS-
C#, CPRS - Delphi, Web Service Interfaces, Java Interfaces, RPC, etc.
So Doctor, do let us know which part of VISTA are u interested in.
Setting it up, template creations, customizing it or building a new
interface to the EHR system.
I hope this would have been of some help
Sumit Sharma
On Jul 30, 12:26 pm, "Anthony Papillion" <antho...@openemrhq.com>
wrote:
If you are a clinician, then you don't need to learn MUMPS to pick up
VISTA.
In case, you want to support VISTA installation, then basics in MUMPS
would be helpful.
In case you are interested in development and adding features into
VISTA, only knowing MUMPS is not enough. You will need to understand
the architecture basics about the Kernel, FileMan, MailMan, HL7
interfaces, File (Database) structures, etc. The hardhats group has
mentioned again and again before, no individual ever knows the VISTA
completely.
In case, you want to improve the Add-Ons in VISTA, thats a different
domain on its own. The list is long and to name a very few - Open CIS-
C#, CPRS - Delphi, Web Service Interfaces, Java Interfaces, RPC, etc.
So Doctor, do let us know which part of VISTA are u interested in.
Setting it up, template creations, customizing it or building a new
interface to the EHR system.
I hope this would have been of some help
Sumit Sharma
On Jul 30, 12:26 pm, "Anthony Papillion" <antho...@openemrhq.com>
wrote:
Dr PG
Jul 30, 2009, 4:38:57 AM7/30/09
to Hardhats
Sumit, I am a Healthcare-IT person with a Medical, IT and Management
degree. I inted to do all of what you said - Setting it up, template
creations, customizing it, building a new
interface to the EHR system etc. Obviously I need a team to do it. I
am interested in finding out- what should be the team composition.
Rgds,
PG
degree. I inted to do all of what you said - Setting it up, template
creations, customizing it, building a new
interface to the EHR system etc. Obviously I need a team to do it. I
am interested in finding out- what should be the team composition.
Rgds,
PG
r...@rcresearch.us
Jul 30, 2009, 9:23:26 AM7/30/09
to Hard...@googlegroups.com
Gentle folks;
Actually, the quote was; "It is easier to teach a healthcare provider
MUMPS and VistA than it is to teach a programmer medicine and healthcare."
Much of VistA was written by people at the point of care (Doctors,
Nurses, Lab Techs, Pharmacists, etc.) and that the code was strongly
criticisized by others healthcare providers until the code represented the
accepted practices of medicine, but these rules could be changed because
the source code was available. So the application base evolved into what
VistA is today. A lot of the initial work to bring VistA out was done on
a very few small contracts, and the fruits of that work are reflected in
the code you can download from source forge. We are looking for more
opportunities to do additional development projects, and have some in the
wings that are shovel ready, but just lack the time and the money to cover
the timeto do the work. Without the money, the work languishes or creaps
forward as time is made available to do it. Small amounts of funding
could make it possible to move a lot of these projects move much faster.
Actually, the quote was; "It is easier to teach a healthcare provider
MUMPS and VistA than it is to teach a programmer medicine and healthcare."
Much of VistA was written by people at the point of care (Doctors,
Nurses, Lab Techs, Pharmacists, etc.) and that the code was strongly
criticisized by others healthcare providers until the code represented the
accepted practices of medicine, but these rules could be changed because
the source code was available. So the application base evolved into what
VistA is today. A lot of the initial work to bring VistA out was done on
a very few small contracts, and the fruits of that work are reflected in
the code you can download from source forge. We are looking for more
opportunities to do additional development projects, and have some in the
wings that are shovel ready, but just lack the time and the money to cover
the timeto do the work. Without the money, the work languishes or creaps
forward as time is made available to do it. Small amounts of funding
could make it possible to move a lot of these projects move much faster.
Sumit Sharma
Jul 30, 2009, 9:56:15 AM7/30/09
to Hardhats
Dear rcr,
I certainly agree with you.But the scenario in the Indian Market is a
little different. There is hardly any software development team
associated with the clinics and hospitals. The only people from the IT
in the bigger hospitals will be infrastructure support team. We don't
get extra budget for software development. The doctors and nurses
hardly get any time other than their clinical routines. Ask any
doctors in India and you will see my point. With the number of
population requiring medical treatments, specially in the public
funded hospitals, these doctors have fully packed schedules already.
The time required for a new person to learn to use the system is
manageable, but for a person to learn to start writing codes and add
functionality is a much more time taking process. As for statistics, I
would say there would be less than 5 places in India who are using
VISTA and minimal people who are doing development work on it.
Without a proper training procedure and step wise approach, the amount
of time required for a person to become productive would be indeed
quite long.
I will not say that it is a rocket science but if you want to develop
a GUI like CPRS, one needs to know Delphi and learn the various
interfaces and RPC. In theory, Yes, it will be easier to teach VISTA
and MUMPS to healthcare professionals.
It is just a gentle thought [:-)]..
Regards
Sumit Sharma
> > taurusd...@gmail.com
> > dr_pankajgu...@yahoo.com
> > ----------------------
I certainly agree with you.But the scenario in the Indian Market is a
little different. There is hardly any software development team
associated with the clinics and hospitals. The only people from the IT
in the bigger hospitals will be infrastructure support team. We don't
get extra budget for software development. The doctors and nurses
hardly get any time other than their clinical routines. Ask any
doctors in India and you will see my point. With the number of
population requiring medical treatments, specially in the public
funded hospitals, these doctors have fully packed schedules already.
The time required for a new person to learn to use the system is
manageable, but for a person to learn to start writing codes and add
functionality is a much more time taking process. As for statistics, I
would say there would be less than 5 places in India who are using
VISTA and minimal people who are doing development work on it.
Without a proper training procedure and step wise approach, the amount
of time required for a person to become productive would be indeed
quite long.
I will not say that it is a rocket science but if you want to develop
a GUI like CPRS, one needs to know Delphi and learn the various
interfaces and RPC. In theory, Yes, it will be easier to teach VISTA
and MUMPS to healthcare professionals.
It is just a gentle thought [:-)]..
Regards
Sumit Sharma
> > dr_pankajgu...@yahoo.com
> > ----------------------
r...@rcresearch.us
Jul 30, 2009, 10:25:56 AM7/30/09
to Hard...@googlegroups.com
Dear Sumit Sharma;
If you cannot do the development at or near the point of care, then you
will never got out of the problem I outlined. What you are doing is
purpetrating a system that has failed to work more times than I can count.
The people at the point of care need to be involved. The Programmers
need to see their code in operation and see where the nurses curse the
code and listen to the suggestions the doctors and nurses make. They are
the subject matter experts you need to build a meaningful system.
If you are building from rough specifications and interpreting the
business rules without having the healthcare providers involved, then
you will be making policy for the hospital without actually knowing the
business rules that these folks have to live by. The "take it or else"
approach is nearly criminal. You must find a way to get the
developers/programmers into the nurses stations and accompanying the
doctors and nurses on rounds where they need to use the systems you are
writting. The sooner that your people can clear up the rough spots, the
more satisfaction the healthcare providers will find acceptance of what
you do. The healthcare providers need to have that impact on the code
development or they will not identify with the solution and they will
subconsciously sabotage the application.
Actually, I would start looking at the M-Gateway web tools that are in
open source and start migrating away from CPRS. Keeping CPRS clients
and servers coordinated is a royal nightmare in a large facility with
lots of clients. The web interface is really the way to go, but it
will be a while for us to get the project done. The clients in the
case of the web access are thin clients and only need to be a web
browser with sufficient memory.
Best wishes; Chris Richardson
Many of the developers are doing the work in their own time and out of
their own pockets and on their own vacation time.
If you cannot do the development at or near the point of care, then you
will never got out of the problem I outlined. What you are doing is
purpetrating a system that has failed to work more times than I can count.
The people at the point of care need to be involved. The Programmers
need to see their code in operation and see where the nurses curse the
code and listen to the suggestions the doctors and nurses make. They are
the subject matter experts you need to build a meaningful system.
If you are building from rough specifications and interpreting the
business rules without having the healthcare providers involved, then
you will be making policy for the hospital without actually knowing the
business rules that these folks have to live by. The "take it or else"
approach is nearly criminal. You must find a way to get the
developers/programmers into the nurses stations and accompanying the
doctors and nurses on rounds where they need to use the systems you are
writting. The sooner that your people can clear up the rough spots, the
more satisfaction the healthcare providers will find acceptance of what
you do. The healthcare providers need to have that impact on the code
development or they will not identify with the solution and they will
subconsciously sabotage the application.
Actually, I would start looking at the M-Gateway web tools that are in
open source and start migrating away from CPRS. Keeping CPRS clients
and servers coordinated is a royal nightmare in a large facility with
lots of clients. The web interface is really the way to go, but it
will be a while for us to get the project done. The clients in the
case of the web access are thin clients and only need to be a web
browser with sufficient memory.
Best wishes; Chris Richardson
Many of the developers are doing the work in their own time and out of
their own pockets and on their own vacation time.
Nancy Anthracite
Jul 30, 2009, 10:48:01 AM7/30/09
to Hard...@googlegroups.com, Sumit Sharma
However, if the programmers are not experts in the area they are supporting,
it is likely that what they produce will not be useful unless those busy
healthcare professionals are at their elbows. So, difficult or not, I think you
need nearly continuous input from the healthcare providers.
--
Nancy Anthracite
it is likely that what they produce will not be useful unless those busy
healthcare professionals are at their elbows. So, difficult or not, I think you
need nearly continuous input from the healthcare providers.
Nancy Anthracite
Anthony Papillion
Jul 30, 2009, 10:59:18 AM7/30/09
to Hard...@googlegroups.com
I have to agree with Nancy on this. We just got through a few very small VistA implementations and we could not have fully understood all what was needed had we not had medical staff right there giving us direct input. What we would have produced would have been unusable and would have forced OUR vision of how we think things should be done on the staff instead of working within theirs.
It might be difficult and they might be busy but I guarantee that if you don't take have the people who will be using the software giving you input as the project progresses, the system will be more of a pain and a hindrance than a useful tool.
I think that "we'll do it, you use it" way of doing things is one of the reasons for such high EMR failure rates.
Anthony
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:48:01
To: <Hard...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Sumit Sharma<sumits....@gmail.com>
It might be difficult and they might be busy but I guarantee that if you don't take have the people who will be using the software giving you input as the project progresses, the system will be more of a pain and a hindrance than a useful tool.
I think that "we'll do it, you use it" way of doing things is one of the reasons for such high EMR failure rates.
Anthony
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Anthracite <nanth...@earthlink.net>
-----Original Message-----
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:48:01
To: <Hard...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Sumit Sharma<sumits....@gmail.com>
Sumit Sharma
Jul 30, 2009, 11:07:11 AM7/30/09
to Hardhats
Dear Chris Richardson,
The people at the point of care need to be involved but not
necessarily, they sitting down to create and modify the system. Their
expertise lies in their clinical practice and thats their domain
expertise. But then again, let me repeat that their involvement in
subject matters and customization is indeed very important. Our
experience are more with Biomedical products related to Electro-
physiology and constant interaction and feedbacks are indeed the order
of the day.
I have been looking at the different web interface tools and have been
really happy to look at these solutions. I was citing CPRS just as an
example. VISTA infrastructure is pretty extensive with so much
contributions from so many users,health-care professionals,
developers, etc. It will not be easy for health professionals to grasp
the whole development procedure in a matter of few days.
Anyways, these are just my opinions about it.
Thanks for advices Dear Chris Richardson.
My team is also working on VISTA .Hopefully we will be able to
contribute soon.
The people at the point of care need to be involved but not
necessarily, they sitting down to create and modify the system. Their
expertise lies in their clinical practice and thats their domain
expertise. But then again, let me repeat that their involvement in
subject matters and customization is indeed very important. Our
experience are more with Biomedical products related to Electro-
physiology and constant interaction and feedbacks are indeed the order
of the day.
I have been looking at the different web interface tools and have been
really happy to look at these solutions. I was citing CPRS just as an
example. VISTA infrastructure is pretty extensive with so much
contributions from so many users,health-care professionals,
developers, etc. It will not be easy for health professionals to grasp
the whole development procedure in a matter of few days.
Anyways, these are just my opinions about it.
Thanks for advices Dear Chris Richardson.
My team is also working on VISTA .Hopefully we will be able to
contribute soon.
Dr PG
Jul 30, 2009, 1:58:28 PM7/30/09
to Hardhats
I am building a Mumps EHR and VistA team in Delhi. Plz send your
resumes to me if you are ready to relocate to Delhi.
Rgds,
PG
resumes to me if you are ready to relocate to Delhi.
Rgds,
PG
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