I need current documentation

[alexwi]

Hi,

I'm a long-time clipper/vfp developer, but a total noob with Harbour, and pretty much lost.

Based on the videos posted by Choon Wei (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IPoEG-91Bs&list=PL25pOtYM-9xrQ5Ka8E37TgkYBOW1mO4__), I recently downloaded Harbour from https://www.hmgextended.com/download-3/ after spending HOURS trying to figure out what I need in order to get started with Harbour. In light of all the information out there, which was baffling, these videos were the only thing that seemed to follow some logic.

Now that my feet are kinda wet, I'm having a hellish time with the documentation. There's a lot of it and I have no idea of what's current (and HOW current) and what isn't, and a lot of information that I simply can't find anywhere (e.g. I've seen a number of references to a "\hmg\contrib" folder or something like that, which I don't have).

The sample code includes functions that don't seem to be documented anywhere (e.g. HMG_SysWait() or _Execute(), to name two), and then some functions are documented in C:\MiniGUI\Harbour\doc\(x)harbour.chm and others in c:\minigui\doc\MINIGUI.CHM with no rhyme or reason for a novice like myself. And then there's the plethora of web sites with lists of functions and references (all, of course, with no clue whatsoever as to how old or new they are).

I know this question has been asked a million times and will be asked a million more, but I desperately need some guidance. 

Thanks to all from the bottom of my heart!

Alex

[Eric Lendvai]

Here is a beginning of on up to date doc:  https://harbour.wiki/index.asp?page=PublicArticles&mode=show&id=220304024106&sig=2327201296

If you know how to use docker, you could try https://github.com/EricLendvai/Harbour_FastCGI  there is a working sandbox in there.

On Windows I use Docker Desktop, works really well.

Eric

[alexwi]

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the link. I visited it about a week ago and also watched a presentation you made to vfp developers on Harbour (can't remember where that video was, though).

The one thought that keeps going through my mind, and this is something that irritates me going back 30 years, is the lack of dates on most online documents (not just Harbour). Would it be possible to add update/creation dates to your articles? Obviously, now that you replied with the link, I'm aware that yours are recent, but future users of this platform will run into the same issues with the plethora of information available that is potentially outdated.

The ONLY thing that gave me confidence as I took this plunge was that youtube shows that Choon Wei's videos are from 2021. (I think that your video was also recent, but I needed some hand-holding.)

To give you an idea of the challenge I'm facing as a noob, right now I have 62 tabs spread across 6 browser windows (I just counted them), showing several documentation sources, discussions, forums, etc. (some tabs point to the same sources, of course), as well as 3 separate chm files open, and have spent the past three days jumping around like crazy, looking (often unsuccessfully) for answers to pretty basic questions. As much as Harbour is a mature product, I can't honestly recommend it to anyone unless they have an xBase background, because I simply can't imagine how someone who lacks that foundation could possibly learn, let alone become proficient, with Harbour.

Around 2000, Kevin McNeish (don't know if you know of or remember him, he created the Mere Mortals framework for vfp) became an early adopter of .net. I considered using the same approach he applied back then, and go through all the functions, properties, methods, etc. (or at least those that I need) and painstakingly document them. Unfortunately, unlike .net, there doesn't seem to be a Class Browser for Harbour, so I don't even have the ability to "dig" and look for things here.

So these have been three hellish days hitting wall after wall, looking at 3 different documents for every single piece of information and scouring the samples provided with Harbour (whose creators, for some weird reason, think that code comments are evil).

Yeah, I know that this is an open-source project and it's manned by volunteers (some of which pull in all directions at once), and I've been using Linux long enough to know how things work (or don't) in this sort of environment, but I REALLY needed to vent. My rant is by no means directed at you, but at the community at the same time that I'm extremely thankful for the assistance I received here with the few issues I wasn't able to figure out on my own.

Again, thanks for the links!

Alex

[Antonio F.S.]

Absolutely agree and in total solidarity with your writing, Alex. I too
am a newcomer to Harbour and spend a lot of time looking into it. I am
being assisted very fraternally by experts in this ecosystem, but the
truth is, I only ask them when I have no other choice because I don't
want to bother constantly about basic and not so basic aspects of the
language, which should be thoroughly documented and regularly updated.
The fact that it is an open source product does not justify the clutter
and the huge variety of old information that one can find on the
Internet without being a concise and comprehensive record of this
platform. I have mentioned this to the group on more than one occasion,
but of course as a constructive suggestion. It is not about pointing
fingers at anyone, but about improving together.

As a popular saying in Spain goes, "para muestra, un botón". See what a
marvellous documentation in Ring.
https://ring-lang.github.io/

Best regards.
Antonio F.S.

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El 2/5/22 a las 8:50, alexwi escribió:

[Eric Lendvai]

Hello Alex,

I understand your frustration. The biggest problem with Harbour at this point is the lack of authoritative and maintained documentation.

This is the reason why I started to create a much bigger article "Harbour Developer's Guide"

But to be authoritative, I need to verify every thing I mention. I have a lot of sample code I am creating that can be used with the Sandbox I created (FastCGI).

This is being done outside my day job, which is already very time consuming. Lately I am focusing on the datawharf project a  Database Designer/Modeler/Analyzer Tool web application. It can be used for Conceptual, Logical and Physical modeling. On the Physical side (data dictionary) it can be used against any ODBC backend Server (for now PostgreSQL, MySQL, MariaDB, MS SQL).

I am not doing desktop apps with Harbour anymore. I might still do some in the future with Webview, but not any non HTML frontend. 

All the articles I wrote on harbour.wiki are still valid.

In regards to finding internals use the following links:

Curated doc most coming from Pete, but organized by categories:

https://harbour.wiki/index.asp?page=PublicHarbourAPIExplorer

A true explored of all the Harbour Source code. I created a C and PRG source code scraper. All the documentation from the link above is actually coming from the raw scraping, meaning all the docs are shared. 
https://harbour.wiki/index.asp?page=PublicLanguageReferenceHarbourSourceCodeExplorer

I am still looking for people to help me out on the documentation / articles. Several people mentioned their interest in writing article, but except for Alain Aupeix no one actually did it.

To contact me:  https://harbour.wiki/index.asp?page=PublicContactUs

[Antonio F.S.]

Very interesting. Thanks for the information Eric.

Best regards.
Antonio F.S.

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El 4/5/22 a las 10:42, Eric Lendvai escribió: