Unpleasant, but necessary note about Harbour.

[Antonio F.S.]

Hello.

Even in the developer groups Ring, Nim, Gambas and a few others, I have
not been treated disparagingly, not even a little bit, as I have been
treated in the Harbour group. Apart from the dictatorial way in which
they moderate, there is also an unpleasant lack of respect in some
explanations and a disgusting way of ‘killing’ the absolutely free good
intentions to contribute to generate a constructive debate about this
very badly treated programming language because of an elite formed by a
few, who maintain power at the expense of ‘spitting’ people like myself.

No wonder that, unfairly, Harbour is in such a bad discredit as it is,
with respect to languages of its level well referenced in the
programming world.

Best regards to people of good will.

Antonio F.S.

[HBQuerier]

I haven't been treated bad here, but you can't always get answers.  

I was dismissed on a Harbour github, after asking why a contrib library didn't work as expected.  They told me it works the way it's supposed to, and I should ask about the library on the Harbour Google groups.  The irony is I already asked some questions about the library in the Google groups, and received no answer.

Also, I recently asked for links to another Harbour tool, to which I frequently donate, and both my emails were ignored. 

My solution, Antonio - depend on AIs as much as possible.  Human beings have many shortcomings, which AIs don't.  Even though we're still at the early stages of the AI revolution, the AIs are already better at customer service.  They are kinder, more patient, they don't get annoyed, they don't get tired of answering the same question.

Experiment with different AIs.  I generally use Claude Sonnet, but Gemini Pro is also good with Harbour. 

[Antonio F.S.]

Hello HBQuerier.

First of all, thank you very much for your sincere explanations, which endorse my previous message dedicated to the Harbour developers group.

In my experience with Clipper (decades ago) I had the opportunity to get excited with that language that made me enjoy programming, but I didn't spend too much time with it, because other applications needed to be written in Cobol and Fortran. When I discovered Harbour by chance on the web, I felt that nostalgia and wanted to get involved in the documentary aspect to feel useful by contributing something to it. I had the good fortune to meet a group of senior programmers with whom I keep in touch almost daily by Whatsap (perhaps the best thing that happened to me) and, in addition, I invited other people to get to know the language (I deeply regret it). In the end, I was completely ‘discalibrated’ when I saw what situation I was facing and what the real problems are (read again my previous message).

Thanks to the IAs I have learnt quite a lot from Harbour, although I certainly code with other technologies because investing effort and time in this ecosystem is not very profitable or not profitable at all.

In short, those who currently have the power over Harbour and everything that surrounds it (official website, documentation, improvements, new versions, etc), are guilty of having this great language unjustly imprisoned.

Best regards.
Antonio F.S.

---------------------------------------------------------

El 6/9/24 a las 23:40, HBQuerier escribió:

I haven't been treated bad here, but you can't always get answers.  

I was dismissed on a Harbour github, after asking why a contrib library didn't work as expected.  They told me it works the way it's supposed to, and I should ask about the library on the Harbour Google groups.  The irony is I already asked some questions about the library in the Google groups, and received no answer.

Also, I recently asked for links to another Harbour tool, to which I frequently donate, and both my emails were ignored. 

My solution, Antonio - depend on AIs as much as possible.  Human beings have many shortcomings, which AIs don't.  Even though we're still at the early stages of the AI revolution, the AIs are already better at customer service.  They are kinder, more patient, they don't get annoyed, they don't get tired of answering the same question.

Experiment with different AIs.  I generally use Claude Sonnet, but Gemini Pro is also good with Harbour.

-------------------------------------------------------

[marcos...@gmail.com]

Hello

Harbour has some branches, in my case I use 

https://www.hmgextended.com/
Harbour MiniGUI Extended Edition

What branch of Harbour do you use? As part of the community, I support and answer, to the best of my knowledge, the different questions I find.

I have pdf and chm documentation for harbour and minigui that I can provide you.

Regards 

Marcos Jarrin

[Antonio F.S.]

Hello Marcos.

First of all, thank you very much for your reply.

As I said before, I don't use Harbour for the reasons I have already explained and which have to do, precisely, with one of the many reasons such as the one you mentioned: dispersion and ‘every man for himself’.

You are very kind and thoughtful to offer us your Harbour branch.

With respectful and cordial greetings.
Antonio F.S.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

El 7/9/24 a las 5:36, marcos...@gmail.com escribió:

Hello

Harbour has some branches, in my case I use 

https://www.hmgextended.com/
Harbour MiniGUI Extended Edition

What branch of Harbour do you use? As part of the community, I support and answer, to the best of my knowledge, the different questions I find.

I have pdf and chm documentation for harbour and minigui that I can provide you.

Regards 

Marcos Jarrin

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Alex Strickland]

Hello Antonio

I have not replied until now because I thought perhaps the "elite" you
refer to might like to reply. They haven't, and I think it is because
this group "maintaining power" does not really exist.

I have been using and benefiting from Harbour for over 20 years. I
cannot recall any case of the poor treatment you claim to have suffered.
I looked at quite a few of your posts and answers to them. I did not see
any problems.

Harbour has very few people capable of maintaining the incredible level
of code quality that past maintainers and a very few current maintainers
put into into the project. I would not refer to them as "elite" in the
disparaging way you do, but as an elite of incredibly good programmers.

These past and current maintainers have produced a product with almost
no bugs and which has been stable and productive for me for many years.
They have now mostly "moved" on. Sadly Clipper will never become popular
like Python. I'm ok with that.

I for one would be quite nervous of people "improving" Harbour unless
their contributions could match the quality of code already in Harbour.
I have seen a project descend into a chaotic mess when unqualified
people were allowed free access.

I see that Antonio Linares had been given write access, and he does
indeed have the skills that should be required.

Otherwise, I am not sure what justifies your bitter email?

--

Regards

Alex

[Anand Gupta]

Agree with Alex.

I also 'just keep' with the harbour and have moved away as client requirements changed.

But to feel bitter, never occurred to me or ever felt by me.

Maybe Antonio can clarify more.

Anand

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[Antonio F.S.]

Hello Alex.

First of all, thank you for responding.

Is there also no world government hidden in the shadows, nefariously
directing the designs of mankind? It's a bit ironic my previous comment,
but certainly with regard to Harbour, well focused. I don't think I need
to dwell on it any further, because it's so clear.

How can you see a problem with my posts in the Harbour developers'
group, when they have all been rejected? I even think I've been silenced
or removed from the group because, apparently, they ‘know me well
enough’ to judge me like that. In any case, there are many types of
mistreatment, including those applied to the obvious neglect suffered by
other colleagues who have replied to my e-mail and even those who,
without doing so, know that I am right.

Nobody doubts the quality of the elite I am referring to as excellent
programmers, but quality is not only measured by technique, but also by
what the person is like and what permission is given to Harbour to
improve it and place it in a more relevant place as a programming
language. I have not been derogatory. You are wrong to accuse me of
that. I have given an objective opinion and it is one thing if I have
insulted (not done) and another if you do not agree with what I have
written.

If Harbour will not be as popular as Python, for example, it is
precisely because the elite to which I refer do not allow it with their
anchors in the process of active participation of people who are
restless about it.

There is no need to be nervous about people being able to participate,
as I mentioned, with their contributions. Obviously, they must first be
reviewed and assessed for their effectiveness for the smooth running of
the official code. But then, none of that is allowed either! No project
will turn into chaos, if the organisation of the project is correct and
above all, respectfully clear when it comes to responding (not like now,
which is even embarrassing).

Antonio Linares is qualified for what you say and for much more. And I
still can't understand why he himself had to ask for his inclusion, it
would have been disrespectful not to have done so earlier by the person
who has now authorised it!

My e-mail is not bitter at all. The debate and the experience I have
with other computer systems are some of my greatest assets when it comes
to exposing. You are too hasty to qualify my writing with that word.

Best regards.
Antonio F.S.

----------------------------------------------------------------

El 9/9/24 a las 10:02, Alex Strickland escribió:

[Francesco Perillo]

I've been writing a long reply but I deleted everything...

There are too many Harbour variants (distributions, compilers, os supported) and too few Harbour users.

There are too many Harbour programmers, the ones that use the Harbour language, and too few C programmers, the ones that write Harbour internals and interfaces to external libraries. And only a few of the C programmers are able to write quality C code.

Harbour project is almost dead because it is complete. It solves the problems that started its start.

[trepao2...@gmail.com]

Hello,

Thank you all for your comments.

The opinion is often repeated that Harbor is already finished and that justifies not doing anything else in its core.

At what point was it decided that this had to be the case? Who said it?

It is more than evident that a language that does not evolve, because it does not facilitate at least the necessary level of adaptation to the new software challenges, is a dead language that only awaits a long path of decline.

What many of us are missing is a roadmap where we can read if we have to expect something more from the language or this is how far it has come, and it is also very important that the community generates debate for the possible creation of a new branch where a harbor expansion

My two euro cents

[Anand Gupta]

After reading all the emails, I understand,

• Harbour core codes are in lock state
• Some members want to add/change but not allowed
• Reason is Harbour stay as Clipper was.
• Time has changed a lot from Clipper days
• This clash of knowledge happening

I am not a good programmer of C or Harbour, just can fulfill our clients needs.

But those who can, I will suggest fork Harbour and start a new Harbour-A, or Harbour-X etc.

This way original stays where it is and a new path is created for new times.

No clash or anything here.

Anand

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[Francesco Perillo]

On Mon, Sep 9, 2024 at 2:11 PM Anand Gupta <coral...@gmail.com> wrote:

After reading all the emails, I understand,

• Harbour core codes are in lock state

Nobody decided it, it just is....

 

• Some members want to add/change but not allowed

As in github style, members can fork and provide patches. I agree that since there is not a elite it may be difficult to have PR committed

• Reason is Harbour stay as Clipper was.

Harbour must not break compatibility

• Time has changed a lot from Clipper days

Yes of course.

• This clash of knowledge happening

I am not a good programmer of C or Harbour, just can fulfill our clients needs.

But those who can, I will suggest fork Harbour and start a new Harbour-A, or Harbour-X etc.

The main problem is exactly this: WHO CAN ? 

[HBQuerier]

Huh.  I'm enjoying this thread.  Let me indulge my two cents - 

I haven't experienced any angst because Harbour isn't evolving, or that it's evolving in multiple confusing forks.  As long as 3.2dev is stable and relatively free of errors, it's a universal turing machine like any programming language, and it's high-level enough to build novel applications with relative ease.

Even though Clipper is a dead language, I still sometimes use DBsee4 in DosBox-X, and then generate the application in Harbour.  Even Rytech's Visual XBase/Gensys can generate Harbour code, with some minor modifications to their templates (i.e., Taking out 'Set Proc To' statements).

So I guess I don't understand why a mature stable language needs to be grown any further, when we can always build contrib libraries to catch up with new technologies.  Clipper itself advanced to 5.3, but most of us were happy with 5.2c.

As far as the treatment by other posters, I've no doubt Antonio isn't imagining what he's describing.  

I don't experience that at all ; everyone has been polite to me here.  As I mentioned, I was insulted when a github told me that a third party function did exactly what it's supposed to, without any clarification, and suggested I go to the google groups to ask.  I had already tried that with a previous question, and didn't get a response.  I was so pissed, I just closed the github account and resolved to always go to AIs and Trial & Error before asking for help again.

But as far as THIS group goes - you've all been helpful when you're able to be.  I oftentimes don't get an answer at all, but everyone seems to try to help.  I'm sorry that Antonio is experiencing something unpleasant, but am glad several of you have responded with sympathy.

Thanks for starting this thread, Antonio.

[Francesco Perillo]

At what point was it decided that this had to be the case? Who said it?

Nobody decided. There were interesting commits in the last 12 months.

 

It is more than evident that a language that does not evolve, because it does not facilitate at least the necessary level of adaptation to the new software challenges, is a dead language that only awaits a long path of decline.

What would you like to have in the roadmap ? What is missing that keeping you from writing code that could solve your and your clients problems ?

Are you sure you need core changes and not specialized libraries ?

[Antonio F.S.]

Hello.

I'm not referring to the Harbour user group (which I think is an
excellent fraternal way of sharing and helping), but I am referring to
the Harbour developers group (which is not the one where we share our
opinions after I started the thread).

It is important to take this into consideration.

Best regards.
Antonio F.S.

---------------------------------------------------------

El 9/9/24 a las 15:25, HBQuerier escribió:

[Steve Litt]

marcos...@gmail.com said on Fri, 6 Sep 2024 20:36:12 -0700 (PDT)

>https://www.hmgextended.com/
>Harbour MiniGUI Extended Edition

After looking at the preceding URL, it looks to me like hmgextended
doesn't support GNU C. Have I read this correctly?

SteveT

Steve Litt

http://444domains.com

[trepao2...@gmail.com]

Hello mr. Francesco,

Thanks for responding and I appreciate your commitment to Harbor, the compiler I regularly use.

It occurs to me, and I already asked for it a long time ago, that I need a data load for the .dbf areas. Someone told me to do it by programming. Its a data for internal dbf memory area NOT in dbf header file

On the other hand, if it is a question, as you. Comment, from specialized bookstores. Why have additions been made to harbor in the core? Why have extended codeblocks been created if they could be solved with a simple function?
And on the other hand, anything done beyond Assambler could be considered a specialized library. Harbor would also be a specialty bookstore.

We need a direction, a route map, a path or at least know which port has reached the end of the path.

Grateful for being able to comment with you

[Cotswold GB]

Always disappointing to see this type of message being posted but maybe not uncommon on some forums.

PureBasic is quite a confrontational forum, with often the very experienced offhand with those new to the language..

Contradicting them in any way seems to tip some of them over the edge and into a world of fury. Responses provided to help a new user can often be quite esoteric.

I will say that the language reference and general information on Harbour is much better. Plus there are helpful Clipper books out there it you can find them.

PureBasic is just hard work for someone new to it. I suspect more will abandon than persevere. Maybe is the same problem with Harbour attracting younger programmers?

(just to say, whilst Purebasic has built-in access to databases, and looks like it could compete but in my opinion it is not a database solution in the way that Harbour and its forks are)

The forum Access-Programmers.co.uk for MS Access  is quite different a different forum and provides friendly support with only the odd point scorer. MInd you, most of the Access forums are quite friendly places.

(Access in contrast to PureBasic is a sound RAD database language  despite some opions to the contrary. IT Departments don't like it for often illogical reasons)

Just the way it is in the online World I suppose.

[Geoffrey Kenan]

I have a different view than does Antonio, but I can understand some of his apparent frustrations.

Probably like many others I used Clipper from about 1986 or so to compile programs supporting the DBASE language because it worked. And I had an EXE file which gave me greater flexibility.

I am not a high-level programmer, I used Clipper to write an EXE which would do computations and produce results for me at the time. When the world moved on from 16 bit architecture to 32 bit and then Windows after that Clipper was buried. For many years after that I kept an old PC running Windows XP or whatever and dual-booting it just to sometimes run my old Clippers apps. But it was always a hassle dual-booting etc.

The world moves on and about 15 years ago I came across Harbour which suddenly restored my interest in my old apps. I was able to re-compile them and started to write updated and newer apps. I found HMG and was also able to write apps to display graphs when required. I made a donation to one of the earlier developers as a thank-you.

I may be wrong, but I understand that the earlier developers of Harbour were interested in just providing a 32 bit compiler for the old Clipper code, and their primary aim was to NOT intending to establish a formal business and everything that goes with that - like technical articles, magazines/books etc and of course support on-line etc. I understand that like many others in the GNU community they provide their expertise and suggestions, but it is all voluntary for most of them. And like us all they are getting older, etc.

I would love for someone to establish a company which would provide ongoing support and a development program for the future. I would also like someone to write books which support the language. I  would pay for a such support, say a once-only payment of 200 Euros or whatever. But I suspect that will never happen. 

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[cod...@outlook.com]

Hi.

Geoffrey Kenan writes and explained what I also experienced using Harbour. From Clipper 87 to 16 bit to 32 bit wall, and then discovering Harbour which prolonged my Clipper life to nowadays.

On my questions I always got answers which helped me to solve my problems. Never felt any discrimination when I asked beginners questions. Always felt good will in this forum.

Also completely agree with Geoffrey's thoughts on what was earlier Harbour developers intention.

I can only say many thanks to Harbour developers and to forum participants.

Regards,

Simo.

[Anand Gupta]

As Antonio has explained, his problem is NOT forum members not helping, but he wants to add/contribute to core harbour or something which he is not getting as he requires.

Regards,

Anand

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[Antonio F.S.]

Hello Arnand.

Yes, and no. I mean, I don't require anything in any specific aspect about Harbour; what it is about is to devise a linked, structured and detailed arrangement of everything concerning the language and its ecosystem, centralised in a regularly updated website.

I remind you again that I am not criticising the Harbour user forum, but the DEVELOPERS' FORUM and, in particular, those who manage it, deciding who are suitable to contribute ideas or suggestions and who are not. In my case I have been silenced (I think even removed) from such a forum, as if I were an idiot who should not be listened to/read.

As for the pitiful situation that Harbour does not deserve for being an excellent programming language at the level of even the most modern, the blame lies with this group of developers who neither do anything for the language to adapt to new technological features, nor allow it to do so by providing new specifications to make it better known and more used by the programming world in general.

Best regards.
Antonio F.S.
 

---------------------------------------------------------------

El 13/9/24 a las 10:48, Anand Gupta escribió:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/harbour-users/CANnDcfxcb--cJVFHRmWNBC_9kmB20TiOkSh4irxmSE-%2B_Ah4LA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Anand Gupta]

Hi Antonio

Yes I understand your view and have suggested making a fork.

When the road is closed we take a detour.

I have taken so many detours in my programming life due to reasons not in my hand, that I am habituated now. Remember FoxBase/FoxPro, just one example.

Well I strive to keep my clients happy and satisfied, no matter which road I have to take.

Regards,

Anand

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/harbour-users/395c4f9a-6c75-4fd8-8f8e-eac04d55be02%40gmail.com.

[Francesco Perillo]

I'd like to know which are these magical new improvements that should be added to Harbour to make it the most interesting and used language in the world...

So, everybody, please describe what you'd like to add to Harbour. Put in writing your dreams. 

[Antonio F.S.]

Hello.

Certainly, and with all due respect, do not confuse the idea of improving Harbour and its ecosystem, as other systems do on a regular basis, with irony of an ironic and unserious nature.

Best regards.
Antonio F.S.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

El 13/9/24 a las 21:09, Francesco Perillo escribió:

I'd like to know which are these magical new improvements that should be added to Harbour to make it the most interesting and used language in the world...

So, everybody, please describe what you'd like to add to Harbour. Put in writing your dreams. 

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[Francesco Perillo]

Antonio, I'm ironic, of course. But I really can't understand how can Harbour evolve, in which direction, so I'm asking for clues.

I already proposed my ideas: something similar to npm, phar, nuget and similar. With a standard to easily integrate the libraries in our code, not in the compiler. I also added that all or most of Harbour libraries now in the contrib directory should be moved to this new system. In this way I don't have to respect all the constraints of the code submitted to the harbour project.

I also proposed to removed support for a lot of old compilers and esoteric operating systems.

I said what I'd like. I also added that it may be impossible in Harbour repository.... we should fork...

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/harbour-users/77a1ffec-4969-4c89-bbf1-0d0ee7b8a4b9%40gmail.com.

[Antonio F.S.]

Hello Francesco.

Don't your arguments prove me right? Of course they do!

So you answer your own question about what could be done for Harbour; the problem is that the developer elite I am referring to keeps the circle of new possibilities closed with an absolutely dictatorial attitude. And I can prove it with the example of their own ignored proposals. So I am ‘not inventing the wheel’ when I say what I say about it.

Best regards.
Antonio F.S.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

El 13/9/24 a las 22:04, Francesco Perillo escribió:

[Francesco Perillo]

Antonio, sorry, I believe that there is a language barrier and I can't frame your request 

Mine are just ideas, of course.

 Like yours and the ideas of anybody else. 

But the people that you call the "developers elite" have no obligations to write the code I dream of. I don't even know who they are  !!!

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[cod...@outlook.com]

I am one among many ordinary Harbour users. This is my point of view regarding Harbour.

As Franceso said most of us do not know who developers of Harbour are.

From earlier times I can only remember  vszakats (Viktor) and Przemysław Czerpak, as they frequently participates in developer and user mailing lists. Who today take care on Harbour I do not know.

What is the true is that developers did great job for Clipper users. They made stable core Harbour v3.2 with 100% compatibility with Clipper 5.2e version. They did it for free for big Clipper community. They did it for ones who already worked in Clipper.

They revived Clipper breaking 16-32 bit barrier. Most of us use Clipper to make apps for living. With Clipper we were  stacked on 16-bit computers (with Windows), Harbour opens us door to 32 bit and 64 bit machines. In that time there are other commercial products but no one was like Harbour. One of them I even bought but it was not what I expected.

What can I ask from Harbour developers ? Nothing else !  

They did it as Clipper lovers, not on commercial base.  I think it se unique on internet that group of people made great programming product for large users group, for free.  And not in few months, they improve Harbour from its beginning to nowadays. I must respect that.

Today it is not easy to make large changes in core Harbour as they have responsibilities for many Harbour users which depend on its product. Someone who wants more can make its own fork. Like Viktor did it with its own Harbour 3.4.

New improvements can be made with contribs and independent products like Kresin's LetoDB,  Rolf's  LetoDBf. There are many wrappers for existing libraries, like are for XML libs, using graphic libs, using PageScript, using LibXL …   sorry for not mentioning many others. Also there are several GUI libs, Pritpal Bedi's HbQT, mod-harbour and UT project for making web apps …  etc, etc.

My humble opinion is that there is no need to extend core Harbour. It is not good to make too big core  Harbour.

All other wishes can be solved with contribs and independent products based on Harbour. Also, who have knowledge and have will can make its own fork. Harbour users will use it or not depending on their needs.

Regards,

Simo.

[oleksa]

Hi Antonio,

Welcome to the Open Source World where no one owes anything to anyone.

And you can say to whom specifically you present claims?

Regards,

Oleksii Myronenko

6 вересня 2024, 10:31:11, від "Antonio F.S." <antoni...@gmail.com>:

Hello.

Even in the developer groups Ring, Nim, Gambas and a few others, I have 
not been treated disparagingly, not even a little bit, as I have been 
treated in the Harbour group. Apart from the dictatorial way in which 
they moderate, there is also an unpleasant lack of respect in some 
explanations and a disgusting way of ‘killing’ the absolutely free good 
intentions to contribute to generate a constructive debate about this 
very badly treated programming language because of an elite formed by a 
few, who maintain power at the expense of ‘spitting’ people like myself.

No wonder that, unfairly, Harbour is in such a bad discredit as it is, 
with respect to languages of its level well referenced in the 
programming world.

Best regards to people of good will.

Antonio F.S.

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[Antonio F.S.]

Hello.

Personally I take the constructive aspect of my contributions for lost, just as the future of Harbour is also lost.

Best regards.
Antonio F.S.

----------------------------------------------------

El 14/9/24 a las 9:58, oleksa escribió:

[oleksa]

Sorry, but i don't got the answer from you. I asked you about one thing, and you answered me about the future of the harbour.

What are your lost contributions are you talking about?

Regards,

Oleksii Myronenko

14 вересня 2024, 11:47:55, від "Antonio F.S." <antoni...@gmail.com>:

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[Steve Litt]

Antonio F.S. said on Sat, 14 Sep 2024 10:47:46 +0200

>Hello.
>
>Personally I take the constructive aspect of my contributions for
>lost, just as the future of Harbour is also lost.

Dam dude, just put your contributions, as patch files, on your own
website and let everyone know about them. That's what I did for the
VimOutliner project when my contributions were voted down.