Re: here are the work receipts from the last guys.

[Andrew Cettina]

I figure we might as well all work from one email thread containing all their charges from the old group as well as ourselves. See my attachment for our deductions and the ones Joe sent me earlier for the old guys'.

-Cettina

On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 7:52 AM, Joe Reynolds <jrreyn...@gmail.com> wrote:

​

 repair receipt.pdf

​​

 20130712_111513.jpg

​​

 Carpet cleaning receipt.pdf

​

--
Andrew J. Cettina

1415 N. Taft St, Arlington, VA 22201

Apt. 686

(c) 609.575.9324

[Joe Reynolds]

Do you have a copy of the charges they gave us this time?  I haven't seen it, so I don't really know what we're working with.  I think the first thing we need to do is get the receipts from them, if they were not included.

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[Andrew Cettina]

There is only one receipt, it is P. 1 of the PDF

[Joe Reynolds]

Question: How much did you say you got back Cettina?  If that receipt is accurate then we each should have gotten back 590, which is almost a two thirds and much more reasonable.

[Andrew Cettina]

See the final page of the PDF, that includes the check. Did you also include the bill for the cleaning service? It's in the email from rage she provided.

[Joe Reynolds]

They're tacking on two months of water that they didn't bill us for, which makes up the difference.  See the last page of the ledger.  Tom, did we pay the second charge of 157?  I don't remember doing so, but I want to confirm.

[Richard Ingebretsen]

Why are there two charges for carpet cleaning the main level? There is the $250 from the workman receipt and $350 from the carpet cleaner.

[Richard Ingebretsen]

First sorry, the other carpet charge mentioned above is from the old guys, my bad.

 

Secondly, while we know the soap thing was broken before we moved in, it is not listed on the repair list from Rage back when we moved in or on our additional items email we sent them so we might be on the hook for that if there is no other record for that.

 

Third, the red stain is listed on our email list to them of additional items.

[Joe Reynolds]

Where are you seeing that?  I only see the one charge...

On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Richard Ingebretsen <ring...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Andrew Cettina]

Richard, could you PDF the additional items email we sent them and send it as an attachment so we have all the relevant documentation in one thread?

[Joe Reynolds]

I want to know what the charge is for the "stained carpet".  What action was taken on it?  They can't just charge us because it's stained, they need to have replaced it or tried to remove the stain.  It's also kind of a moot point considering the carpets were stained when we moved in.  The only other item I would contest is the satellite dish.

[Joe Reynolds]

So if the carpet and satellite dish charges are removed, the amount we got back rises to 540 each that we get back, before the water bills we owed are added in.

[Thomas LeMense]

We're having horrible internet issues at work, but we want to see actual cost for the smoke detectors and soap dish. They can't have cost more than thirty dollars each. We can contest the satellite dish fairly easily. The back yard and front yard are complete bullshit ($110 to pick up trash that was probably pallets from the contractor!?, $120 to clean up after the homeless man?). I'm not too mad about the carpet or maid costs, but we should be able to knock off some of the other stuff. 

I can't tell if we paid the last water bill or not, but when my computer comes up I should have access to records on that. 

We might want to consider offering them a middle ground compromise to avoid a lawsuit once they've provided proof. 

----- Reply message -----
From: "Joe Reynolds" <jrreyn...@gmail.com>
To: "Richard Ingebretsen" <ring...@gmail.com>
Cc: "Andrew Cettina" <acet...@gmail.com>, "hanover house" <hanove...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: here are the work receipts from the last guys.
Date: Mon, Jul 14, 2014 10:36 AM

I want to know what the charge is for the "stained carpet".  What action was taken on it?  They can't just charge us because it's stained, they need to have replaced it or tried to remove the stain.  It's also kind of a moot point considering the carpets were stained when we moved in.  The only other item I would contest is the satellite dish.

On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:34 AM, Richard Ingebretsen <ring...@gmail.com> wrote:

First sorry, the other carpet charge mentioned above is from the old guys, my bad.

 

Secondly, while we know the soap thing was broken before we moved in, it is not listed on the repair list from Rage back when we moved in or on our additional items email we sent them so we might be on the hook for that if there is no other record for that.

 

Third, the red stain is listed on our email list to them of additional items.

[Richard Ingebretsen]

Here are the two email I was referring to. It is important to note that the list they  provide is only advertised as a list of thing that will be repaired that day and not necessarily a comprehensive list of all pre existing conditions, however it still might be considered it.

[Joe Reynolds]

I am almost a hundred percent positive that the two water charges are legit and we didn't pay them (they didn't give us a bill, so that isn't our fault).  I don't think we have anything to stand on for the front and backyard; we were supposed to cut down the plants and keep them tidy, and we didn't.  It's really hard to argue the cost of that since it's manpower, not a set device.  Also, we did leave the smoker in the front on accident, so it wasn't just the contractors.  I think we should push to ask the following:

What was the actual carpet charge for?  There needs to be an action taken, they can't just say "carpet stained" and slap us with a charge.  I assume it's steam cleaning, but I would like to clarify.  I am not opposed to paying for steam cleaning because the job we did was not the best, but I am opposed to paying to replace carpeting since the permanent stains weren't ours.

What were the item prices of the smoke detectors and soap dish?  How many smoke detectors were replaced?

We told them that we could not have the satellite dish removed, and we should therefore not be responsible for that cost.  The satellite dish was not installed or owned by us, and we have photo evidence that it was there before we moved in.

On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Thomas LeMense <lemen...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Richard Ingebretsen]

Its also important to note that because we didn't replace the smoke detectors and light bulbs, they can buy the most expensive ones they want, along with the batteries, and the cost of installation.

[Richard Ingebretsen]

I also still want to clarify if that list they sent us is the comprehensive list of pre-existing items of our first walk through with Mary Kay. I would ask for them to send us there official record of the pre-existing items, not a work order from Rage.

[Andrew Cettina]

Yeah, I agree with Joe about the front/backyard. I am positive that the missig smoke detectors were noted during our pre-move in walthrough, but I don't know that she ever sent us their full list so we can't verify that. Barring that however we can't prove that we didn't remove them for some reason. 

The carpet irritates me mostly because it was an existing issue and we already paid to have it cleaned when Joe/Tom did it. The Dish is horseshit. Can someone find a few minutes today to google what smoke detectors cost so we can have an idea of what their material cost would be before labor?

[Richard Ingebretsen]

Smoke detectors range in price from dirt cheap $4.88 to ridiculously expensive $129.99, and again, because we didn't replace any missing or damaged ones, and don't have any proof at the moment of pre-existing conditions, they can pretty much buy whichever one they want and charge us for it.

[Joe Reynolds]

I think Richard is correct about what they could buy.  I think we should ask to see what the price of the units were they replaced them with is to make sure that the cost actually went to the units themselves, not for outrageous "installation" costs.  The carpet was not fully cleaned when we did it; there was still significant wear that needed to come out.  I would rather clarify with them and figure out what the cost was for those items.  the only item that we really have a solid footing for is the satellite dish.  

[Thomas LeMense]

The most expensive "normal" smoke detector home depot sells is $30. Bear, you're right that they can buy whatever, but they have to prove that's what they spent. 

I would also call the contractor to verify what he was paid. Chances are it's not that amount. 

[Joe Reynolds]

I mean, I think if anything the contractor is fleecing both of us.  It's the same guy who has done the shoddy repair work throughout the year, and I have the sneaking suspicion he's been fleecing IMI for a long time.  Anyways, I think we should ask what the cost per unit of the smoke detectors were.  Also, if we're using the email we sent back to them highlighting remaining issues as proof that they existed, it's noteworthy that we didn't mention the broken soap dish.  They can definitely use that to throw into our face.

[Thomas LeMense]

We still need to ask about the front and back yard. $230 is a lot of money to do very little work. The $40 for weeds is bullshit, but probably a fair cost. 

They need to prove that this is what they actually paid. They're saying they used a contractor, so there should be actual auditable costs broken out into labor and materials. They can't just make up a number. 

----- Reply message -----
From: "Joe Reynolds" <jrreyn...@gmail.com>
To: "Andrew Cettina" <acet...@gmail.com>
Cc: "Thomas LeMense" <lemen...@gmail.com>, "Richard Ingebretsen" <ring...@gmail.com>, "hanover house" <hanove...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: here are the work receipts from the last guys.

Date: Mon, Jul 14, 2014 11:02 AM

I think Richard is correct about what they could buy.  I think we should ask to see what the price of the units were they replaced them with is to make sure that the cost actually went to the units themselves, not for outrageous "installation" costs.  The carpet was not fully cleaned when we did it; there was still significant wear that needed to come out.  I would rather clarify with them and figure out what the cost was for those items.  the only item that we really have a solid footing for is the satellite dish.  

[Thomas LeMense]

This is a different guy. The one they've been sending is named Anthony and he's likely an independent contractor they have on staff, this is (supposedly) a guy named Ronald. I also want to see receipt of them paying the guy (credit card, cancelled check, etc.) They can't charge us for the inconvenience, it has to be something they have record of spending. 

----- Reply message -----
From: "Joe Reynolds" <jrreyn...@gmail.com>
To: "Thomas LeMense" <lemen...@gmail.com>
Cc: "Andrew Cettina" <acet...@gmail.com>, "Richard Ingebretsen" <ring...@gmail.com>, "hanover house" <hanove...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: here are the work receipts from the last guys.

Date: Mon, Jul 14, 2014 11:04 AM

I mean, I think if anything the contractor is fleecing both of us.  It's the same guy who has done the shoddy repair work throughout the year, and I have the sneaking suspicion he's been fleecing IMI for a long time.  Anyways, I think we should ask what the cost per unit of the smoke detectors were.  Also, if we're using the email we sent back to them highlighting remaining issues as proof that they existed, it's noteworthy that we didn't mention the broken soap dish.  They can definitely use that to throw into our face.

On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Thomas LeMense <lemen...@gmail.com> wrote:

The most expensive "normal" smoke detector home depot sells is $30. Bear, you're right that they can buy whatever, but they have to prove that's what they spent. 

I would also call the contractor to verify what he was paid. Chances are it's not that amount. 

----- Reply message -----
From: "Andrew Cettina" <acet...@gmail.com>
To: "Joe Reynolds" <jrreyn...@gmail.com>

[Joe Reynolds]

I don't think we're going to get anything from trying to figure out cost of labor for the front and backyard.  I think the best course of action is to clarify what we are being charged for with the carpets, and what the cost of the smoke detectors and the soap dish were.  I don't necessarily think asking for proof of payment is a good idea, mainly because I don't think that the contractor and IMI would be willing to commit fraud.  

[Thomas LeMense]

I do think they'd be willing to commit fraud and have in the past with the carpet replacement receipt. If they did this all above board they should have no problem producing the information quickly. 

We need to know how much they actually spent on this, not to contest the labor charges, but to make sure that the charges are real and for work that was actually performed at the stated cost. 

Also, I want to see the actual water bills for those months. I find it extremely unlikely that the bill was the same two months in a row. 

[Joe Reynolds]

Alright, I've drafted a response below.  Let me know what you think:

Hi Nicola,

We had a few follow up items on the security deposit we would like addressed:

Can you provide a receipt stating what was actually paid to the contractor?  the bill attached is not proof of payment.

What action was taken for the "stained carpet" item?  What action was taken by the contractor?

Can you provide the cost for the soap dish and the smoke detectors, or should we reach out directly to the contractor for that?

Can you provide the actual water bills for the last two months that we are now being charged for?

Can you explain why we are being charged for removing the satellite dish from the front of the house?  We did not install the dish, it was not owned by us, and DirecTV told us that we could not have it removed because we did not purchase it.  This is not a cost that should be incurred by us as we did not install the dish.

[Richard Ingebretsen]

I object to asking for proof of payment to contractor. I would also like to ask for the official list of pre existing items from our first walk in. I would also mention the fact that we reported the red stain in the living room in an email to them to add to the initial walkthrough items.

[Thomas LeMense]

What do we have to lose asking for proof of payment? they sent us an invoice with all round numbers, that looks ridiculously fake and/or inflated. If they actually paid it, there's nothing we can do about them choosing a shifty contractor that overcharged them. They also provided proof of payment for the maid service, so they should do the same for the contractor. 

[Andrew Cettina]

I think the key point is that they provided us with proof of payment for the maid service, so there should be no objection to their doingh the same with the contractor.

[Richard Ingebretsen]

Fair.

[Joseph Reynolds]

Ok so are we ok with the draft email?  We could add a line in referring to the fact that they provided the invoice for the maids.

[Andrew Cettina]

I would add a line, it makes it sound more curious than confrontational. It goves them an out to say, "oops, we must have forgotten!" even though I'm sure that would be bullshit.

[Joseph Reynolds]

Ok.  Cettina, since she sent those to you do you want to respond with the email with the amended bit about the proof of payment?

[Andrew Cettina]

I think we might as well keep you as our PoC with her since you have been the whole time. I din't think it matters much who got the paperwork since we all would obviously discuss it amongst ourselves.

[Richard Ingebretsen]

And a request for the first walkthrough list and a mention about how the red stain in the living room was reported as pre existing.

[Joseph Reynolds]

Oh I didn't realize that you scanned the documents in, I assumed she had emailed you.

[Thomas LeMense]

Can we also ask what was done in the back yard? They can only charge us for damage caused by us, and failing to prevent a homeless man from pooping in the back yard is their default. I'm fine with cleaning up the weeds, but anything other than that is ridiculous. not too mention we reported it and they said they'd take care of it. 

[Andrew Cettina]

For the walkthrough list it might be good to mention how we'vre requested it several times and never received it. Something along the lines of, "we would like to repeat our request for a copy of your initial walkthrough notes so we can have a copy for our records".

[Joseph Reynolds]

If you want to make changes, give me an edited draft.  I really do not want to be the one to send it.

[Andrew Cettina]

If you all can make your proposed changes I can look at it tonight then send after COB.

[Thomas LeMense]

Added Sentence:

Additionally, please clarify what work was done in the back yard amounting to $120. We will not be held liable for damages reported to you during the course of the lease that resulted from an inadequate fence in the back yard, including broken lamps and refuse from the homeless man that was living there during that time.

Thomas LeMense

6301 Stevenson Ave #1210

Alexandria, VA 22304

Cell: 865-406-9804

Work: 202-469-6235

 

[Joseph Reynolds]

I don't think that we need to be that confrontational with the language.  Let's see what the charges are specifically.  If it's labor we don't have a case, considering how grown out it was when we left (I believe many jokes were made about how much of a jungle it was, including by you Tom).  If they charged us for the light it's a different story, but I suspect they would have notated that separately.

[Thomas LeMense]

You're right that it was a jungle, and they have a right to charge us for that, but since they worded it differently than the line for the front yard I'm almost certain that they're trying to sneak something in there that we would object to. 

[Joe Reynolds]

And that's fine that we ask them to clarify, but I don't think we need to include the second part about liability.  I think becoming confrontational in the initial request is not constructive.

[Andrew Cettina]

Somebody please just send me the fully updated version of the email and I'll forward it along to the crooks. I've got more work to do so I'm essentially just going forward whatever you all want me to send.

[Joe Reynolds]

Everyone ok with the draft below?

Hi Nicola,

We had a few follow up items on the security deposit we would like addressed:

Can you provide a receipt stating what was actually paid to the contractor? You provided this for the maid service, but not for the contractor bill.

What action was taken for the "stained carpet" item?  What action was taken by the contractor?  We had previously stated that the stains were still present after the previous occupants had moved out.

Can you provide the list of broken items that need to be fixed from the walk through we took when we moved in 6/2013?

Can you provide the cost for the soap dish and the smoke detectors, or should we reach out directly to the contractor for that?

Additionally, please clarify what work was done in the back yard amounting to $120?

Can you provide the actual water bills for the last two months that we are now being charged for?

Can you explain why we are being charged for removing the satellite dish from the front of the house?  We did not install the dish, it was not owned by us, and DirecTV told us that we could not have it removed because we did not purchase it.  This is not a cost that should be incurred by us as we did not install the dish.

[Thomas LeMense]

A few syntax edits:

Also, I am toying with the idea we should send this directly to Rage (rmoh...@hotmail.com) with just a copy to Nicola and Mary Kay. Ultimately he's responsible and the person we need to talk to and they fucked up and gave us his contact info - might as well use it.

Hi Nicola,

We had a few follow up items on the security deposit we would like addressed:

• Please provide the list of what you are considering pre-existing damages from when we moved into the house in June 2013 as we requested previously. Several of the items referenced on the invoice are the same issues we reported to you last year.
  
• Please provide a receipt showing payment to the contractor and more details on the invoice. The invoice provided does not include a breakdown of receipted material costs and hourly labor costs, only lump sums. Additionally, there is no proof of payment, which is detail that was provided for the maid service.
  
• Please clarify action was taken by the contractor for the "stained carpet" item. We had previously stated that the stains were present after the previous occupants had moved out.
  
• Please clarify what work was done in the back yard amounting to $120.
  
• Please provide a copy of the water bills for the last two months.
  
• Please explain why we are being charged for removing the satellite dish from the front of the house? As we stated before, the dish was present when we moved in and not installed or owned by us, therefore DirectTV would not remove it from the house. We should not be charged for this.
  

Thomas LeMense

6301 Stevenson Ave #1210

Alexandria, VA 22304

Cell: 865-406-9804

Work: 202-469-6235

 

[Joseph Reynolds]

I don't think sending the email directly to rage is a good or necessary decision.  I also don't think changing most of the points to a hostile tone is productive.

[Richard Ingebretsen]

I think this is too hostile and demanding for an initial letter. Joe had it worded more casually. I also think that sending it to Rage is a HORRIBLE idea. IMI is the one who sent us the check, they are the ones who did the inspection, they are the ones who held the security deposit, and they are the ones who Rage hired to deal with us. They are the only ones we need to communicate with.

Bear

Sent from my iPhone

[Thomas LeMense]

I get it, you guys want to pussyfoot around with this, so do whatever you want but it's not going to get anywhere. Send them an email full of sunshine and roses, but at some point you're going to have to fight for it if you want it. I can promise you they aren't going to part with a single cent because we nicely ask them for back-up information, and that's if they even bother responding.

I'd rather cut to the chase because they already fucked us in the collective ass with no lubrication for more than a year, there's no reason to believe they'll do anything different now.

Thomas LeMense

6301 Stevenson Ave #1210

Alexandria, VA 22304

Cell: 865-406-9804

Work: 202-469-6235

 

[Joe Reynolds]

Tom,

I think there are legitimate questions we need to ask them, but I don't think being abrasive and threatening to them will have the desired effect.  There's a track record of them completely ignoring language where we are threatening, and at least when we are polite we get partial answers.  

I'm willing to evaluate whether it's worth going to small claims court after we allow IMI an opportunity to respond to our questions.  However, at this time, the only charge I see where we have an open/shut case on is the DirecTV dish, which is for 75 dollars.  I don't think that charge is worth the time, energy, and resources it will take to haul them to small claims court.  So let's see how they respond when we email them, and go from there.

We're all aware at how unhappy you are/were with the time we lived at Hanover and the service we were provided.  However, I don't think that we should make any rash decisions based on negative feelings levied at IMI and the owner.  I'd rather extract ourselves cleanly from this mess and finally close the Hanover House chapter of our lives and move on.