Salary or Stipend for Director

[Barbara Brocker]

What is fair, monthly pay for a director of a 5-octave choir that plays once a month in church and has a two-hour rehearsal once a week, from September through May?  Finding a volunteer for the position may not happen.  We may need to find someone locally, either with or without bell experience.  We are a small community and the closest larger town is a 20-minute drive.  I have been asked by the church council president to give them an amount based on comparative amounts from local bell choirs.  However, local churches have either volunteer directors, closet bells with no current program, or a bell director who also directs the vocal choir.

Barb

[Stephanie Wiltse]

$3500/year is pretty much the going rate for a single group around here. As churches make cuts, though, there seems to be more of a push to have volunteers do it. Don't get me started...

Stephanie Wiltse

Grand Rapids MI

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 11:27 AM, Barbara Brocker <bfbfb...@gmail.com> wrote:

What is fair, monthly pay for a director of a 5-octave choir that plays once a month in church and has a two-hour rehearsal once a week, from September through May?  Finding a volunteer for the position may not happen.  We may need to find someone locally, either with or without bell experience.  We are a small community and the closest larger town is a 20-minute drive.  I have been asked by the church council president to give them an amount based on comparative amounts from local bell choirs.  However, local churches have either volunteer directors, closet bells with no current program, or a bell director who also directs the vocal choir.

Barb

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[Ardy McCloy]

I started in 1990 with a salary of $2000...... 25 years later I was making $4100 for one choir all those years. Am retired now.

Ardy McCloy 

Westlake UMC

Westlake, Ohio

Sent from my iPad

[Barbara Robinson]

Paid.  Not where I'm from.  Started as a temporary position volunteer and 14 yrs later I retired as it turned into a permanent position for children and adult bell choirs.  I felt I was being taken advantage of and no music budget to work with, hence I was purchasing music out of my own pocket just so we weren't board.

Barbara 

NJ

Sent from my iPhone

[TimR]

I think my church paid $1500 per year until I came back, then it was expected I would donate my time.

[HBlady]

I suggest you start with what the going rate per hour is for music lessons in your area. Always use that for your bargaining chip. Let's say it's $50/hour (okay, I live in a large metro region...YMMV).

Now, for a two-hour rehearsal, let's assume an average per week of one hour of prep time. Again, this is going to vary on a weekly basis - some weeks you will spend WAAYYYY more (when you have to do creative assignments because you have fewer ringers due to absences, urgh....), some weeks less, but let's just average it out at one hour per week. Over the years, I've found that's a decent average. So in actuality, you're spending three hours a week working. Plus the two hours on Sunday morning, for a total of 14 hours per month. Let's NOT get into any discussion of including travel time to and from church, etc., since "real" jobs don't have those discussions now, do they?

If you were to bill for your time at 14 hours per month as if these were music lessons at the going rate of $50/hour, you would receive $700/month for your services. For 9 months, that comes to $9,300. There's your answer.

Now, I would suggest you use that figure and negotiate a salary of at least $4,000/month, as others have suggested, since my non-scientific research over the years has found that's what is a fairly reasonable and "going" rate for this many hours.

P.L. (my no-so-humble opinion)

[Ann F]

Thanks for this discussion. I got into handbell directing as a challenge to myself and an additional way of using my skills. At the time, the bells were sitting, unused, in a church closet. This is my 20th year of directing as a volunteer and I've enjoyed every minute of it.

But I'm sowing the seeds of the idea of paying the director. I've resurrected the bells and we now have almost 5 octaves of bells, up from only three when I started. Also 3 octaves of chimes and an enthusiastic group of competent bell ringers. In short, I've built the program. I'm now in my early 70s and while I don't plan to quit, I've reached an age where sometimes we don't have good control of our fate. I'm starting to tell anyone with clout in the church that they need to think about paying the handbell director because they are not likely to find another volunteer who will do what I'm doing and none of us want to see the program die when I'm no longer able or willing to continue.

Ann

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**************************************************
Photo gallery of the construction of my viola d'amore - http://violaann.smugmug.com/Music/My-Viola-DAmore-Marguerite/36032083_cHq22x
Ann's hostas - about 180 varieties, updated for 2014:
http://violaann.smugmug.com/Garden/Hostas/Hostas-in-my-garden-A/7617361_qL3gHS
Emmanubells Handbell Ensemble - http://www.emmanuelunited.ca/worship_renewal/bells.php
Ottawa Chamber Orchestra - http://www.ottawachamberorchestra.com/

**************************************************

[Charles Peery]

Interesting discussion on this lately!  There are several dichotomies that I wanted to point out:

1. People want to relate this to “real jobs,” but then they start talking about charting hours.  Well, although there are exceptions, most “real jobs” that are any good are salaried, not hourly.  So I think you can use the hours to figure up a reasonable starting place, but then I’m not sure you should refer to “hours” after that, or in negotiations. I’m not sure you can talk about “prep time,” in a church, because the organist could rightly say “What about MY prep time?”  and then expect to be paid for how ever many hours he/she practices.  Most churches do not do that if/when they talk about “hours” in regard to the choir director, who could then claim a vast number of hours of “prep time” conducting the anthems in his/her bathroom mirror.  I know I’m being hyperbolic just to make the point that “prep time” is a slippery slope. I’m not saying that the results people have calculated are wrong. But I think the real life results fall somewhere in between these rational calculations and an extreme minimum that the church can “get away with.”  Posters have acknowledged this. Sometimes people advertise church salaries and I think, “For that amount of money, I would not haul my butt off the couch and drive way across town every week!”  It has to be enough to pass that test, at least.

2.  I also think that in terms of justifying the program, sometimes we musicians are the last people who should try to do that. In other words, I think the correct way to think about this is:  pretty much nobody cares that you built the program, so never say it that way. The church can say, “We didn’t ASK for this, you provided it as a gift, and after you did that, you’re demanding that we pay for it now? Not fair.”   Nobody cares if the program stays or falls apart after you leave.  I don’t mean they actually don’t, I mean you should not refer to this as justification during negotiations, because it can sound like it’s about you and your ego.  What you should refer to is ministry aspects:  this program has (or allows for) X number of participants.  This program brings people into leadership roles in worship.  This program allows for participants who are not able to sing but want to contribute musically.  Each time the bell choir plays, they add 1.5 extra people per ringer to the attendance at worship. (This is a researched statistic that I’m pulling over from voice choirs, but I bet it holds true.) This program is now bigger than the weekly attendance at X (X being Bible study, other fellowship groups, whatever you can compare it to.)  Therefore this program has qualified to be an ongoing ministry that should now be undergirded with financial support in order to insure sustainability.  That sort of talk, haha.

Chuck

On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Barbara Brocker <bfbfb...@gmail.com> wrote:

What is fair, monthly pay for a director of a 5-octave choir that plays once a month in church and has a two-hour rehearsal once a week, from September through May?  Finding a volunteer for the position may not happen.  We may need to find someone locally, either with or without bell experience.  We are a small community and the closest larger town is a 20-minute drive.  I have been asked by the church council president to give them an amount based on comparative amounts from local bell choirs.  However, local churches have either volunteer directors, closet bells with no current program, or a bell director who also directs the vocal choir.

Barb

[HBlady]

Chuck, I agree with your point (sort of) about making sure whatever standard you use to calculate the costs is "reasonable." And I guess I didn't give all the details (didn't think people would want them) when I stated "assuming one hour of prep time" is really doing that, imo. My church actually lists a compensation in my job description for four hours/week of work. So I was compensating for exactly what you're talking about by downgrading that estimate to three hours per week. I agree with you that "prep time" is difficult to calculate, so rather than try to justify or argue the full four hours that my church has already had a long, drawn-out discussion about prior to hiring me, I decided for purposes of this discussion, I should just make that number smaller to ensure we're even closer to reality.

Regarding your comment about salary vs. hourly "real jobs," I disagree. What type of jobs are you referring to that are not hourly paid jobs? I know LOTS of people that work for an hourly wage. And even my day job, that is a salaried position, has an hourly-wage calculation listed on my paycheck. Music teachers charge by the hour, which is standard I was using to calculate the $50/hour fee in the first place. So I'm assuming you don't mean to suggest what type of job (a salaried job) is a "real job."

PL

On Saturday, November 7, 2015 at 4:39:19 AM UTC-8, Charles Peery wrote:

Interesting discussion on this lately!  There are several dichotomies that I wanted to point out:

1. People want to relate this to “real jobs,” but then they start talking about charting hours.  Well, although there are exceptions, most “real jobs” that are any good are salaried, not hourly.  So I think you can use the hours to figure up a reasonable starting place, but then I’m not sure you should refer to “hours” after that, or in negotiations. I’m not sure you can talk about “prep time,” in a church, because the organist could rightly say “What about MY prep time?”  and then expect to be paid for how ever many hours he/she practices.  Most churches do not do that if/when they talk about “hours” in regard to the choir director, who could then claim a vast number of hours of “prep time” conducting the anthems in his/her bathroom mirror.  I know I’m being hyperbolic just to make the point that “prep time” is a slippery slope. I’m not saying that the results people have calculated are wrong. But I think the real life results fall somewhere in between these rational calculations and an extreme minimum that the church can “get away with.”  Posters have acknowledged this. Sometimes people advertise church salaries and I think, “For that amount of money, I would not haul my butt off the couch and drive way across town every week!”  It has to be enough to pass that test, at least.

2.  I also think that in terms of justifying the program, sometimes we musicians are the last people who should try to do that. In other words, I think the correct way to think about this is:  pretty much nobody cares that you built the program, so never say it that way. The church can say, “We didn’t ASK for this, you provided it as a gift, and after you did that, you’re demanding that we pay for it now? Not fair.”   Nobody cares if the program stays or falls apart after you leave.  I don’t mean they actually don’t, I mean you should not refer to this as justification during negotiations, because it can sound like it’s about you and your ego.  What you should refer to is ministry aspects:  this program has (or allows for) X number of participants.  This program brings people into leadership roles in worship.  This program allows for participants who are not able to sing but want to contribute musically.  Each time the bell choir plays, they add 1.5 extra people per ringer to the attendance at worship. (This is a researched statistic that I’m pulling over from voice choirs, but I bet it holds true.) This program is now bigger than the weekly attendance at X (X being Bible study, other fellowship groups, whatever you can compare it to.)  Therefore this program has qualified to be an ongoing ministry that should now be undergirded with financial support in order to insure sustainability.  That sort of talk, haha.

Chuck

On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Barbara Brocker <bfbfb...@gmail.com> wrote:

What is fair, monthly pay for a director of a 5-octave choir that plays once a month in church and has a two-hour rehearsal once a week, from September through May?  Finding a volunteer for the position may not happen.  We may need to find someone locally, either with or without bell experience.  We are a small community and the closest larger town is a 20-minute drive.  I have been asked by the church council president to give them an amount based on comparative amounts from local bell choirs.  However, local churches have either volunteer directors, closet bells with no current program, or a bell director who also directs the vocal choir.

Barb

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[Charles Peery]

I understand, PL,  and I realized I was going against your original premise, which was “what do music lessons cost per hour," which made a lot of sense. Maybe this is just my warped perspective.  Having had both types of jobs, I just feel that “salaried” often means “we trust you as a professional,” and hourly means, “Clock in, clock out. Give us your hours for this pay period.  Account for every minute.”  So.. a salaried person says, “I have a doctor’s appointment this morning,” and that’s the end of it, but the hourly person has to say, “I left the office at 10:15 and I returned at 11:30.”  Again, there is that trust in professional ethics with the first, and more of an expectation of exact accountability with the second.  Which, to me, makes being treated like the first more preferable. Am I so off base about this?

Chuck

[Stephanie Wiltse]

I wonder if there are certain personality types who simply can't stand the
idea of clocking hours? Straight out of art school, I worked in a package
design department where we all punched a clock. I just hated that aspect
of the job, even though I enjoyed the work. We were like a bunch of
factory rats who used our sick time as soon as we accumulated it and
constantly tried to buck the system.

It drives me crazy when churches try to assign a number of expected hours
to a music position. Sure, you can track rehearsals, performances,
services, etc. But "prep time" is much more spongy and I can't abide
trying to track it. For me, most of it happens at home. Certain times of
year it's out of control; other times it settles down. For me, it often
happens in the wee hours; and it's rarely predictable or regular. I really
believe it all averages out that they are getting more than they're paying
for, but it requires a certain amount of mutual trust.

Stevie
Hoping never to punch a clock again

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[mic...@thegoldendance.com]

I'm with you, Stevie. I HATE keeping track of hours and/or punching
clocks for a job such as church music. (Retail, factory, fine.) I'd much
rather just use the Presbyterian Musicians of America statement that
(paraphrased) no church musician can be expected to do an adequate job
in fewer than 6 hours per week and base my pay on that, plus my
education & experience. AND just to make it easier for me and for their
payroll department, please pay me every month, even if I only work 10 -
just divide the total by 12. It makes it so much easier to budget when
it's a steady stream rather than random.

-Michèle

[mic...@thegoldendance.com]

ps. I was the same way when I was a computer programmer. More than once
I solved a coding problem while mowing the lawn or cooking dinner or
even while asleep (waking up with the answer!). How do I track that
time?

-Michèle

[HBlady]

Well, I think it depends on the "purpose" for which the hourly rate is being looked at (oops...preposition at the end of the sentence - older folks, don't get your panties in a bunch!). And maybe that's what I didn't make clear.

What I meant to do was use the hourly wage merely as a means by which one could negotiate with your church staff for a proposed salary for your handbell position - not as a a "punch-the-clock" future for your job. If you really have church types who are going to sit down with you and decide that since they've negotiated for three hours a week that every SINGLE week you MUST WITHOUT FAIL work three hours a week, then you do NOT want to work there, believe me. And remember, I mentioned that the three hours a week was an AVERAGE. You will work more hours some weeks and fewer hours other weeks (don't get me started about Christmas and Easter).

Chuck, while I do think most people see jobs in these "boxes" of either punch-the-clock-I-am-in-charge or you-are-an-adult-now-and-I-trust-you categories, I think there are some jobs that fall sort of in between. And I feel that some music jobs, like my own, fit there. In reaching the negotiated "salary," the staff at my church looked at what was reasonable to pay a music teacher for the number of "hours" they would be putting in of their time on the job. I think that's the right way to approach a part-time job such as a handbell director position. And while you can't necessarily take into account all of the prep time that I might need for Christmas and Easter (and a few other "high church Sundays" as I tend to call them), I appreciate the fact that the staff is willing to focus on the fact that there IS prep time involved in a music position (they add that into the music director's position, too, btw). And it all averages out in the end, I believe. There will be weeks where I have no prep time, and I'm getting paid for prep time. And then there are weeks (like this one), where my prep time includes composing the introit and a bell part to go along with the kids' anthem (for goodness sake!!!!!).

I don't punch a clock, and I'm on the honor system as to how many hours I've put in. And yet, my salary is based on an hourly rate. And as to my full-time day job, while I am salaried, my paycheck also reports out my salary in a hourly wage configuration, and if, for some reason, I work quite a bit less or more hours than normal, I am expected to either make up the hours or get some extra time off.

The "boxes" can be fuzzy if the employers want them to be.

So I don't think it's the "system" or the type of job that necessarily makes us feel negatively about punching a clock or positively about being in a salaried position.

There are PEOPLE behind every system. It's people that create the atmosphere, positive or negative....

PL