meth

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Peter Ferentzy

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Jan 12, 2018, 2:48:21 PM1/12/18
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Hi All
I'd like some opinions. Is crystal meth much more dangerous than cocaine/crack? Is meth really that bad, or is it hype?
Thanks in advance
Peter

Anne Fletcher

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Jan 12, 2018, 2:56:22 PM1/12/18
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It's really that bad! It's a much bigger problem where I live (S. MN) than are opioids. And for the past 3 years, I worked at an outpatient program just outside of the Twin Cities where meth was at least as big a problem as opioids. Clients had a terrible time getting off meth, and one of the biggest problems is that there are no medications for treating it. Some seemed to respond to physician-prescribed benzos, but the evidence supporting this is still unclear.

Best,
Anne



    Author, Inside Rehab: The Surprising Truth About Addiction Treatment – And How to Get Help that Works (Viking,              2013); the Thin for Life books, Weight Loss Confidential, Sober for Good (Houghton/Harcourt)
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Lara Okoloko

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Jan 12, 2018, 2:57:10 PM1/12/18
to 'Andrew Tatarsky' via HAMS Harm Reduction Professionals
I know that where I am in Seattle, meth is a real problem and leads to significant life and health issues and is present in overdose deaths in higher numbers than cocaine. See more here: http://adai.uw.edu/pubs/pdf/2015drugusetrends.pdf

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Anne Fletcher

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Jan 12, 2018, 3:15:42 PM1/12/18
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Since you were asking about cocaine vs meth, my same comments would apply. Meth seems to be more of a problem here.



    Author, Inside Rehab: The Surprising Truth About Addiction Treatment – And How to Get Help that Works (Viking,              2013); the Thin for Life books, Weight Loss Confidential, Sober for Good (Houghton/Harcourt)
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John

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Jan 12, 2018, 3:19:47 PM1/12/18
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My sense from working with clients  is that meth addiction is more damaging physically and psychologically, and the acute withdrawal is worse and more protracted than with cocaine.  Animal studies I’ve seen indicate it’s more dopaminergic than cocaine (1,100%  vs %350 over baseline is what I recall).  I’d be interested in other studies, especially comparing neurological recovery, if anyone knows about them.   I wonder if meth being so long-acting in comparison to cocaine is also a factor.

 

John Savides

 

From: ham...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ham...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Lara Okoloko
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 2:56 PM
To: 'Andrew Tatarsky' via HAMS Harm Reduction Professionals
Subject: Re: meth

 

I know that where I am in Seattle, meth is a real problem and leads to significant life and health issues and is present in overdose deaths in higher numbers than cocaine. See more here: http://adai.uw.edu/pubs/pdf/2015drugusetrends.pdf

On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 11:48 AM, Peter Ferentzy <plfer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All

I'd like some opinions. Is crystal meth much more dangerous than cocaine/crack? Is meth really that bad, or is it hype?

Thanks in advance

Peter

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Lara Okoloko, LICSW

Licensed Clinical Social Worker 

Center for Advanced Recovery Solutions (CARES)

 

Next workshops:

Treatment Navigation, January 24th from 5-8pm 

full day Family Recovery, February 24th from 9:30am to 4pm 

register for these and more: www.caresnw.com/workshop-calendar/

 

NOTICE: This communication and any attachments may contain privileged or

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Maia Szalavitz

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Jan 12, 2018, 3:59:23 PM1/12/18
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The fact that it is longer acting should make it *less* compulsive and less dangerous than crack.

I don't know if anyone really has done comparison studies that make any sense in humans.

What I do know is that the most recent drug is almost always hyped as the worst— so I'm betting when crack is back in a few years, it will be worse than meth again.

On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 3:19 PM, John <2pops...@gmail.com> wrote:

My sense from working with clients  is that meth addiction is more damaging physically and psychologically, and the acute withdrawal is worse and more protracted than with cocaine.  Animal studies I’ve seen indicate it’s more dopaminergic than cocaine (1,100%  vs %350 over baseline is what I recall).  I’d be interested in other studies, especially comparing neurological recovery, if anyone knows about them.   I wonder if meth being so long-acting in comparison to cocaine is also a factor.

 

John Savides

 

From: ham...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hamspro@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Lara Okoloko
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 2:56 PM
To: 'Andrew Tatarsky' via HAMS Harm Reduction Professionals
Subject: Re: meth

 

I know that where I am in Seattle, meth is a real problem and leads to significant life and health issues and is present in overdose deaths in higher numbers than cocaine. See more here: http://adai.uw.edu/pubs/pdf/2015drugusetrends.pdf

On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 11:48 AM, Peter Ferentzy <plfer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All

I'd like some opinions. Is crystal meth much more dangerous than cocaine/crack? Is meth really that bad, or is it hype?

Thanks in advance

Peter

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--

Lara Okoloko, LICSW

Licensed Clinical Social Worker 

Center for Advanced Recovery Solutions (CARES)

 

Next workshops:

Treatment Navigation, January 24th from 5-8pm 

full day Family Recovery, February 24th from 9:30am to 4pm 

register for these and more: www.caresnw.com/workshop-calendar/

 

NOTICE: This communication and any attachments may contain privileged or

other confidential information protected by HIPAA legislation (45 CFR,
Parts 160 and 164). If you are not the intended recipient, or believe that
you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy,
retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. Also, please
indicate to the sender that you have received this communication in error,
and delete the copy you received. Thank you.

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Kenneth Anderson

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Jan 12, 2018, 4:39:07 PM1/12/18
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In terms of pharmacological effects methamphetamine is essentially indistinguishable from amphetamine which they hand out like candy to kids in the form of Adderall. Cocaine or crack are far more likely to cause death by drug poisoning

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Anne Fletcher

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Jan 12, 2018, 4:42:31 PM1/12/18
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I suspect that brain damage may be worse in long-term heavy meth users, but as Maia suggests, who knows? If you look up cocaine there are a lot of nasty effects in long-term heavy users

This is from NIDA about meth:

Psychotic symptoms [that can occur in heavy users] can sometimes last for months or years after a person has quit abusing methamphetamine. These and other problems reflect significant changes in the brain caused by abuse of methamphetamine. Neuroimaging studies have demonstrated alterations in the activity of the dopamine system that are associated with reduced motor speed and impaired verbal learning. Studies in chronic methamphetamine abusers have also revealed severe structural and functional changes in areas of the brain associated with emotion and memory, which may account for many of the emotional and cognitive problems observed in chronic methamphetamine abusers...Some of the neurobiological effects of chronic methamphetamine abuse appear to be at least partially reversible.

Referring to a study:This recovery was associated with improved performance on motor and verbal memory tests. But function in other brain regions did not recover even after 14 months of abstinence, indicating that some methamphetamineinduced changes are very long lasting. Moreover, methamphetamine use can increase one’s risk of stroke, which can cause irreversible damage to the brain. A recent study even showed higher incidence of Parkinson’s disease among past users of methamphetamine




    Author, Inside Rehab: The Surprising Truth About Addiction Treatment – And How to Get Help that Works (Viking,              2013); the Thin for Life books, Weight Loss Confidential, Sober for Good (Houghton/Harcourt)
    Twitter: @annemfletcher         
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Kenneth Anderson

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Jan 12, 2018, 4:42:45 PM1/12/18
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Crack and cocaine poisoning deaths remain high in the black community where heroin poisoning death rates are quite low. You don't hear about it because to the media black lives don't matter

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Dee Dee Stout

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Jan 12, 2018, 4:54:09 PM1/12/18
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I think it’s the worst due to how it’s often made (and depends on the cooker too. I’ve known good ones and bad ones). If one could get pharmaceutical grade it wouldn’t be so unhealthy.  Appears to be more physically damaging than crack/cocaine. DD

Dee-Dee Stout, MA
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Instructor, Holy Names Uni, Oakland
Program Mgr, Serenity House(HR360)
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Shaun Shelly

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Jan 12, 2018, 5:23:38 PM1/12/18
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To describe one drug as 'worse' than the other is problematic. It depends on who, where, when, current social construct- in my setting meth was this week's worst drug of the century, and now heroin is. And it will change again.

Meth has five mechanisms of increasing inter-synaptic levels of dopamine, and do with repeated phasic doses, toxicity can develop at high dose. But at moderate doses meth leads to cognitive improvement for many people - see Carl Harts analysis.

There is substitution therapy, dexamphetamine, methylphenidate - doesn't work for everybody, but stimulants amongst most prescribed drugs in the US, tack those away and see how meth use increases, so is a form of substitution therapy.

Thing is, some people with ADD do better on meth than without, at correct dose. 

By the way Maia your comment on half life exposes one of the greatest myths in the field. Longer half life does not always = less abuse potential. 

Ps the UNODC guide to stimulants and HIV is out soon - was a coauthor on it. But a compromised document trying to keep too many people happy!


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Peter Ferentzy

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Jan 12, 2018, 5:25:45 PM1/12/18
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Thanks everyone for your thoughts.
Maia, thank you for mentioning what I was thinking: "What I do know is that the most recent drug is almost always hyped as the worst." I've studied and written about that. So I'm suspicious when a new drug is vilified. Still, I do believe that speed, in any form, makes you more aggressive than blow. On the other hand, the longer lasting effects could assuage compulsion (like you said, Maia). I've got to think things over.

I'll have more to say after I've digested everyone's thoughts. Been out of action -- and out of thinking -- for a while, so please be patient.

Best Wishes
Peter

On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 4:54 PM, 'Dee Dee Stout' via HAMS Harm Reduction Professionals <ham...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
I think it’s the worst due to how it’s often made (and depends on the cooker too. I’ve known good ones and bad ones). If one could get pharmaceutical grade it wouldn’t be so unhealthy.  Appears to be more physically damaging than crack/cocaine. DD

Dee-Dee Stout, MA
Member of MINT; Trainer, iRest
Instructor, Holy Names Uni, Oakland
Program Mgr, Serenity House(HR360)
www.deedeestoutconsulting.com 
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 12, 2018, at 11:48 AM, Peter Ferentzy <plfer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All
I'd like some opinions. Is crystal meth much more dangerous than cocaine/crack? Is meth really that bad, or is it hype?
Thanks in advance
Peter

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Dee Dee Stout

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Jan 12, 2018, 5:38:07 PM1/12/18
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Also we need to remember that each dx affects each person differently. Just another wrench in things eh?  DD

Dee-Dee Stout, MA
Member of MINT; Trainer, iRest
Instructor, Holy Names Uni, Oakland
Program Mgr, Serenity House(HR360)
www.deedeestoutconsulting.com 
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Maia Szalavitz

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Jan 12, 2018, 5:39:57 PM1/12/18
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I didn't say that longer half *always* means less potential for misuse— I said that it generally does (ie "should" not "always will.")
It's not a myth— it's just a rule of thumb and like all generalizations, contains some truth but isn't always
the case.

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Shaun Shelly

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Jan 12, 2018, 11:24:06 PM1/12/18
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Apologies Maia, wrote my response quickly and wasn't implying you weren't aware of that, rather I was commenting on the situation in my setting where many people in the field speak of longer half-life as universally= less "abuse potential" - which is not always the case, as you pointed out.

Peter, here are two papers on Meth 
one discusses Meth and Crack




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Department of Family Medicine
University of Pretoria

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Hart et al. - 2011 - Is Cognitive Functioning Impaired in Methamphetamine Users A Critical Review-annotated-annotated.pdf
methamphetamine-dangers-exaggerated-20140218(2).pdf
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