Compare stadard and boosted Heat Pumps

[David Friedman]

Kris's decision to abandon his Acadia in favor of a quality Heat pump from York or Carrior or Ruud led me back to the logic of why we bought these systems in the first place.

 

Please take a careful look at the BTU output vs temp for the 2, 3 and 4 ton Acadia's.  Note that todays standard heat pumps from any of the major vendors are basically the same as the primary one and two segments of our Acadia's performance,  and there is a clear and very large differance at low temperatures between the raw primary one and primary two outputs and the boosted BTU curve when primary two runs in conjuntion with the booster.

 

If one wants to "predict" the performance of any of the standard York, Ruud, or Carrior units - simply look at their performance BTU output at the temps they spec - and draw the sloped curve towards zero output as shown on our primary one and primary two curves attached.  These better new heat pumps may slide that curve up or down a bit but the Acadia has an entire performance domain of boosted performance.

 

So - Kris.  Your winter bills will be higher.  Why not just buy a new compressor from F.W. Webb - install the new starting circuit and live with the better performance and ongoing service aids that will be forthcoming form "Savemyacadia.com"

 

I have attached the original performance curves of the 2,3, and 4 ton Acadia's,  and a spec showing two points on  a high end York heat pump. Note that the 4 ton York puts out  BTU's on virtually the same curve that our pimary one and two compressors show given that at 47 it is putting out about 30kbtu and at 17 it is down to 20 it is following the same degradation curve.

 

BUT THE ACADIA KICKS IN THE BOOSTER AT 20 DEGREES AND STILL PUTS OUT 20K BTU'S AT ZERO.

 

There is simply no comparison.  The Acdia is an all climate heat pump and the others (yet) are not!!

 

Sorry Kris

 

David Friedman

[Kris Heikkila]

Sir:

Just the facts...

If you compare the cop of the goodman DSZC180361A two stage 18 seer heat pump......

If you compare the cop of the two systems . the cop of the goodman out classes the Acadia till 5 degrees f

At 60' the Goodman is at a cop of 4.49, The Acadia is listed at 4.12 at 62 '                great for 7 months out of the year

At 30' the Goodman is at a cop of 3.30. The Acadia is listed at 2.80                           still ok for another 3 months

At 10' the Goodman is at a cop of 2.54. The Acadia is listed at 2.35                           maybe 1 month

At   5' the Goodman is at a cop of 2.31. The Acadia is listed at 0' and cop of 2.21          the rest.....

At   0' the Goodman sucks at cop of 2.07, The Acadia is still running strong at 2.21( including the first stage heating element.

So if I hedge my bets and hope for more days above 5 degrees and a better cooling seer of 18 and a great warranty, I should come out of this ok.

I will not get into wholesale pricing here but I will say I am spending far less than the 4000 you suggest. 

I commend you guys for the inventive thinking,and the fix that has been worked out. But in the end , I need a heating system I can rely on when I am away and the wife is at home. 

Say I suck it up and buy a compressor from webb. replace it and the 14 lbs of r410a that shot out of the last one. I still have a system no one will work on but me. Parts not available. I was in the market to refinance the house. It is on hold till I have a heating and cooling system. What do I do when I sell the house?... Yup, that there is a well running Acadia, one of the few, yer s.o.l. if it breaks though. No one will touch it, no one has parts , some inventive soul may fab a part for you but it won't have a warranty.

Here's another thought.

The folks at Webb said even if I BOUGHT a compressor new from them .... It will carry no warranty.  This is against the law , ( at least NH) .

I have enough stress fixing  something that no one wants to work on but me and parts are hard to come by... My 1973 land Rover...

I'll spend the $ on the court case........... Who knows, if I win may  set a precedent. 

I wish all of us the best of luck with what ever way we choose.

Cheers to all, I will post as I get info from the court.

Kris.

PS If I get a judgement or settlement that requires a gag order and I cannot post here you will know by my silence.

Expanded Heating Data

DSZC180361A* / CA*F3642C6A*+TXV/ MBE1600**-1 — High Stage

Outdoor Ambient Temperature

65 60 55 50 47 45 40 35 30 25 20 17 15 10 5 0 -5 -10

MBh 44.5 42.2 39.7 37.1 35.4 34.3 31.9 29.4 27.5 25.4 23.4 22.0 21.2 19.1 16.9 14.7 12.6 10.3

ΔT 33.0 31.2 29.4 27.5 26.2 25.4 23.6 21.8 20.4 18.8 17.3 16.3 15.7 14.1 12.5 10.9 9.3 7.6

kW 2.81 2.75 2.69 2.63 2.6 2.57 2.52 2.46 2.43 2.37 2.32 2.28 2.26 2.20 2.14 2.08 2.02 1.97

Amps 12.8 11.8 11.1 10.4 10.0 9.8 9.2 8.7 8.3 8.0 7.6 7.4 7.3 6.9 6.4 6.0 5.5 4.9

COP 4.64 4.49 4.32 4.12 3.99 3.90 3.71 3.50 3.30 3.13 2.95 2.83 2.75 2.54 2.31 2.07 1.82 1.53

EER 15.9 15.3 14.8 14.1 13.6 13.3 12.7 12.0 11.3 10.7 10.1 9.7 9.4 8.7 7.9 7.1 6.2 5.2

HI PR 400 383 369 352 344 338 324 311 298 285 274 267 262 252 243 233 224 216

LO PR 143 132 124 114 108 104 95 85 77 68 60 56 54 46 39 33 29 23

<Acadia%20Performance%20Charts.pdf><york data.pdf>

[one mad dealer]

Kris,

I'll tell you exactly what I've been telling my customers... you have
to do what is best for you. You clearly have done your research. I
have an acadia in one house and because the trouble before hallowell
closed I put American Standard heat pumps in my new house. No one
wants to have a contingency when they go to sell their house which is
why some of my customers have bailed. In western MA, the average low
is 5 degrees which is why I can get away with another hp.

Please do keep us posted (either privately or publicly).

Gabe

> > <Acadia%20Performance%20Charts.pdf><york data.pdf>- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[one mad dealer]

I forgot to finish my thought... Hopefully you'll strip the unit for
good parts before recycling and send them to someone who will use
them.

Gabe

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[David Friedman]

Kris

 

You can't look only at COP - you need to ask how many BTU's are being delivered at what cost.  The COP comes in on the cost side - but more important is the absolute BTU output - since the differance between say 40,000 and the output at zero is delivered by the strip heat! 

 

At  0 degrees - your pump only puts out 14 vs 25 for the Acadia - so aux heat required is higher more than overcoming slight COP advantge.  If you are switching - I would suggest you try to oversize to the 5 ton to get more heat output if the AC delivered on first stage is not overkill.

 

Looking at the data in detail - the Acadia is still a considerably better cold weather system,  and what I am hoping for - despite the clear current facts that HVAC guys are running away - is that over time the "savemyAcadia.com"  org will supply the HVAC and technical expertize to allow HVAC guys to start returning calls.  Perhaps Acadia servicing will be done by a select group of guys who link in to the "savemy acadia" site.

 

Soon F.W. Well is planning to alert all of their customers to our efforts and information - and I think after some positive publicity in the papers and HVAC blogs -- HVAC companies will starft to realize that they can sevice the systems - especially since F.W. Webb as well as our own org will start to stock parts.

 

And virtually everything in the system is stock - except unfortunately for the modified compressors.

 

My goal for the suit against Bristol is to get them to pay for failed compressors - and agree to warrently compressors modified to do the booster plumbing.

 

A dream perhaps - but my Acadia is humming beautifully now - and I don't see any reason for not keeping it running for years.

 

David

 

Gabe is planning a full series of U-tube videos that will be far more extensive than the original hallowell training course which will be available for a fee on line.

[Gene]

Hi all,

Is the Acadia as good as its literature?

1. The literature shows Mode 3 to be booster compressor, Mode 4 to be
Aux heat. Per info on unit, Mode 3 brings in Aux, and booster is not
til Mode 4.

2. The literature ignores defrost, which takes energy and uses Aux
heat strips.

3. If the outdoor coils ice up, will that drop efficiency?

4. It is my understanding that Hallowell actually had difficulty
getting the Acadia to qualify for the income tax credit.

Fact 1. troubles me for several reasons. First, it appears that
Hallowell "pulled a fast one" on us by making the literature look
better than reality. Second, WHY???? add Aux electric resistance
before running the booster compressor?

Thanks. Gene

> > If you compare the cop of the goodman *DSZC180361A two stage 18 seer heat
> > pump......*
> > *
> > *
> > *If you compare the cop of the two systems . the cop of the goodman out
> > classes the Acadia till 5 degrees f*
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *At 60' the Goodman is at a cop of 4.49, The Acadia is listed at 4.12 at
> > 62 '                great for 7 months out of the year*
> > *At 30' the Goodman is at a cop of 3.30. The Acadia is listed at 2.80
> >                       still ok for another 3 months*
> > *At 10' the Goodman is at a cop of 2.54. The Acadia is listed at 2.35
> >                       maybe 1 month*
> > *At   5' the Goodman is at a cop of 2.31. The Acadia is listed at 0' and
> > cop of 2.21          the rest.....*

> > *
> > *
> > *
> > Expanded Heating Data
> > DSZC180361A* / CA*F3642C6A*+TXV/ MBE1600**-1 -- High Stage

> > Outdoor Ambient Temperature
> > 65 60 55 50 47 45 40 35 30 25 20 17 15 10 5 0 -5 -10
> > MBh 44.5 42.2 39.7 37.1 35.4 34.3 31.9 29.4 27.5 25.4 23.4 22.0 21.2 19.1
> > 16.9 14.7 12.6 10.3
> > ΔT 33.0 31.2 29.4 27.5 26.2 25.4 23.6 21.8 20.4 18.8 17.3 16.3 15.7 14.1
> > 12.5 10.9 9.3 7.6
> > kW 2.81 2.75 2.69 2.63 2.6 2.57 2.52 2.46 2.43 2.37 2.32 2.28 2.26 2.20
> > 2.14 2.08 2.02 1.97
> > Amps 12.8 11.8 11.1 10.4 10.0 9.8 9.2 8.7 8.3 8.0 7.6 7.4 7.3 6.9 6.4 6.0
> > 5.5 4.9
> > COP 4.64 4.49 4.32 4.12 3.99 3.90 3.71 3.50 3.30 3.13 2.95 2.83 2.75 2.54
> > 2.31 2.07 1.82 1.53
> > EER 15.9 15.3 14.8 14.1 13.6 13.3 12.7 12.0 11.3 10.7 10.1 9.7 9.4 8.7 7.9
> > 7.1 6.2 5.2
> > HI PR 400 383 369 352 344 338 324 311 298 285 274 267 262 252 243 233 224
> > 216
> > LO PR 143 132 124 114 108 104 95 85 77 68 60 56 54 46 39 33 29 23

> > *

[David Friedman]

Gene -- I have tried to answer all of your questions - and I don't see any problem with "specs"

 

Icing issues are endemic to all heat pumps and the energy loss due to strip heat tempering the otherwise freezing inside air and due to improper de-icing are blithly ignored by all.  After the latest Pc and sensors my system no longer had icing issues.

 

I believe the specs Hallowell issued are real and are clearly superior to other heat pumps now sold - but clearly not as good as geothermal.  The combination of booster and primary two yields almost 40000 BTU's at zero - wheras the Carrier shown by Kris yields only 15000  --  at almost the same COP.  Assuming one needed at least 45000 to hold a reasonable temp - electric heat would have been needed for 2/3 of the Carrior load and none for the Acadia.  If 60000 was needed - of course the Acadia strip heat would have been invoked to hold heat.

 

 I leave my house at 50 for the winter while we are in florida,  and before the compressor failed on level two - the 4 ton kept the house at that temp with no electric heat.

 

Problem was not getting credits - but getting same level of credits as geothermal.  My understanding was he was not able to break thru on this front.

 

Mode is not really a technical term.  Looking at the bin charts - in bin B which is below 15 degress - electric strip is called on only if the TS calls for Y2 due to a large temp delta or failure to acheive heat.  This is consistant with the charts I referred to.  This Y2 is the dreaded blinking second stage on the TS and is to be avoided and when the compressors are working correctly and the house is correctly sized to the Acadia - it is not called for unless one wants to force the heat up.

 

I don't think there is any funny business.

 

David

 

 

2011/7/12 Gene <enal...@hotmail.com>

[Gene]

David, if I read our chart correctly, (I do not have it in front of
me), between 34? and 25? degrees both stages of the main compressor
run, with stage one electric heat. It is not until below 25? degrees
that the booster compressor runs. Stage 1 electric stays on. So the
electric heat is on before the booster compressor. I do not understand
the energy efficiency of this.

Gene

> 2011/7/12 Gene <enalli...@hotmail.com>

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[one mad dealer]

The booster is not on above 25 or so because the refrigeration
pressures would be too high. The 1 plus 2 shouldn't be flashing above
25 unless something else is not right. If additional heat was needed
above 25, then aux heat would kick in. This is why people should
maintain a specific temp. Could be sensor issues like most are
experiencing. I have ordered new sensors made by Kele to test and
will do so as soon as they are in.

Gabe

> > > > > ÄT 33.0 31.2 29.4 27.5 26.2 25.4 23.6 21.8 20.4 18.8 17.3 16.3 15.714.1

[Hing Lum]

You mentioned the " modified compressors" in the ACADIA.   I have a blown compressor. How should the compressor be modified to make them work in the ACADIA?

2011/7/12 David Friedman <dafr...@gmail.com>

[Gene]

Gabe, thanks for that explanation. So above 25 deg booster compressor
will not engage, if 2nd stage of main compressor will not keep up,
then aux heat is called for. Correct?

But please explain M3 and M4.

This is from the inner panel of the outdoor unit, under "Control
wiring". Is this correct?

Y1 is standard call for heat
Y2 is when standard call is not keeping up, and more heat is called
for.

W1 is 1st stage aux heat
ODF is outdoor fan

BE is booster compressor??

What is Y20? Our installer said that was aux heat. Is that not the
case? It appears that BE and Y20 are always energized together.

From looking at diagrams, Y20 goes back to air handler, Y/Y2 terminal.
Does this increase air handler fan speed?

If so, then I had incorrect understanding (as did our installer). If
so then electric heat will be on:

1. For large call for heat between 25 and 34 deg

2. For large call for heat below 15 deg

3. During defrost mode

4. For temps below -30.

And booster compressor will run:

1. For any call for heat between 15 deg and -30 deg

2. For large call for heat between 15 and 25 deg

Booster compressor will NOT run above 25 deg

Sorry if it has taken me a while to grasp this!

Thanks. Gene

On Jul 12, 11:04 pm, Hing Lum <bestrealestat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You mentioned the " modified compressors" in the ACADIA.   I have a blown
> compressor. How should the compressor be modified to make them work in the
> ACADIA?
>

> 2011/7/12 David Friedman <dafrie...@gmail.com>

> >> If you compare the cop of the goodman *DSZC180361A two stage 18 seer heat
> >> pump......*
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *If you compare the cop of the two systems . the cop of the goodman out
> >> classes the Acadia till 5 degrees f*
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *

> >> *At 60' the Goodman is at a cop of 4.49, The Acadia is listed at 4.12 at
> >> 62 '                great for 7 months out of the year*
> >> *At 30' the Goodman is at a cop of 3.30. The Acadia is listed at 2.80
> >>                       still ok for another 3 months*
> >> *At 10' the Goodman is at a cop of 2.54. The Acadia is listed at 2.35
> >>                       maybe 1 month*
> >> *At   5' the Goodman is at a cop of 2.31. The Acadia is listed at 0' and
> >> cop of 2.21          the rest.....*

> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> Expanded Heating Data
> >> DSZC180361A* / CA*F3642C6A*+TXV/ MBE1600**-1 -- High Stage

> >> Outdoor Ambient Temperature
> >> 65 60 55 50 47 45 40 35 30 25 20 17 15 10 5 0 -5 -10
> >> MBh 44.5 42.2 39.7 37.1 35.4 34.3 31.9 29.4 27.5 25.4 23.4 22.0 21.2 19.1
> >> 16.9 14.7 12.6 10.3
> >> ΔT 33.0 31.2 29.4 27.5 26.2 25.4 23.6 21.8 20.4 18.8 17.3 16.3 15.7 14.1
> >> 12.5 10.9 9.3 7.6
> >> kW 2.81 2.75 2.69 2.63 2.6 2.57 2.52 2.46 2.43 2.37 2.32 2.28 2.26 2.20
> >> 2.14 2.08 2.02 1.97
> >> Amps 12.8 11.8 11.1 10.4 10.0 9.8 9.2 8.7 8.3 8.0 7.6 7.4 7.3 6.9 6.4 6.0
> >> 5.5 4.9
> >> COP 4.64 4.49 4.32 4.12 3.99 3.90 3.71 3.50 3.30 3.13 2.95 2.83 2.75 2.54
> >> 2.31 2.07 1.82 1.53
> >> EER 15.9 15.3 14.8 14.1 13.6 13.3 12.7 12.0 11.3 10.7 10.1 9.7 9.4 8.7 7.9
> >> 7.1 6.2 5.2
> >> HI PR 400 383 369 352 344 338 324 311 298 285 274 267 262 252 243 233 224
> >> 216
> >> LO PR 143 132 124 114 108 104 95 85 77 68 60 56 54 46 39 33 29 23

> >> *

> >> <Acadia%20Performance%20Charts.pdf><york data.pdf>- Hide quoted text -

[David Friedman]

Gene

 

I assume you have the manual which has the detailed bin and mode chart and which uses different language and terms.  (H1,2,3 vs modes) 

 

 

It does take a bit of study to understand the bin/mode logic.  But as I read the tables - there is never any electric heat call unless Y2 at the TS demands it except for the less than -30 bin.  Also in bin D there is a jumper setup that avoids electric heat even for a y2 call.  (J2 mode in bin D (25 to 31) avoids strip heat even if Y2 is invoked)

 

So if heat supplied with Y1 call is adequate to reach temp - the only use of electric strip is for de-ice (which is an energy hog but not unique to Acadia) and bin A below -30.

 

I suspect in the real world - given the variables of air flow and insulation that there are many systems for which Y1 call at TS won't get house to desired temp - and system goes to Y2 and calls fro strip heat - but I really don't think any subtrafuge is involved.

 

One thing i plan to do this next winter is to put a glass window on the panels in my outdoor unit  so the guy who takes care of my house can tell me what mode my system is running in at what temps so I can monitor performance.

 

David

 

David Friedman

 

David

2011/7/13 Gene <enal...@hotmail.com>

[Gene]

Hi David,


I apologize to you. I believe you are right.

My source of erroneous info was our installer.

As you say above, the aux electric resistance heat is called for with
Y2, between 25 and 34 degrees.

I believe the more relevant issue may involve defrost/sensors, which
is a separate thread.

Still wondering what Y20 is.

Thanks. Gene

On Jul 13, 7:05 am, David Friedman <dafrie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gene
>
> I assume you have the manual which has the detailed bin and mode chart and
> which uses different language and terms.  (H1,2,3 vs modes)
>
> It does take a bit of study to understand the bin/mode logic.  But as I read
> the tables - there is never any electric heat call unless Y2 at the TS
> demands it except for the less than -30 bin.  Also in bin D there is a
> jumper setup that avoids electric heat even for a y2 call.  (J2 mode in bin
> D (25 to 31) avoids strip heat even if Y2 is invoked)
>
> So if heat supplied with Y1 call is adequate to reach temp - the only use of
> electric strip is for de-ice (which is an energy hog but not unique to
> Acadia) and bin A below -30.
>
> I suspect in the real world - given the variables of air flow and insulation
> that there are many systems for which Y1 call at TS won't get house to
> desired temp - and system goes to Y2 and calls fro strip heat - but I really
> don't think any subtrafuge is involved.
>
> One thing i plan to do this next winter is to put a glass window on the
> panels in my outdoor unit  so the guy who takes care of my house can tell me
> what mode my system is running in at what temps so I can monitor
> performance.
>
> David
>
> David Friedman
>
> David
>

> 2011/7/13 Gene <enalli...@hotmail.com>

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[Kevin Kuntz]

Hey guys,

This quote startled me:

"This Y2 is the dreaded blinking second stage on the TS and is to be
avoided and when the compressors are
working correctly and the house is correctly sized to the Acadia"

During the winter my thermostat frequently shows the blinking "+
2" (many times a day). Ever since it was installed in 2008. I
figured that was the booster compressor. I don't have electric backup
strips. Sounds like I was wrong? It's a small house (1,600 sq/ft
ranch) and I have a 3T. Seems like with that size home the 3 is all
I'd need in white plains NY where it doesn't get nearly as cold as
parts north. I have R49 insulation in the attic and keep the
thermostat on 67ish. If that blinking "+ 2" is indeed "dreaded" then
what can I do to get it resolved? Was the installation done wrong?

My winter electric bills are huge - ~ $700/month for dec/jan/feb.
That's Con-Ed rates, which are insane, but I was expecting better.

Kevin

[David Friedman]

Now we are getting to the good stuff - and Gabe will have to kick in comments.  My only thouoght is to monitor the actual temp rise and air flow at the air handler and compare the computed BTU's to the rated output under the given temperature.

 

One very big factor is cleanliness of filters.  I found that when my filters got dirty (and I didn't think they were that dirty) the air flow was so reduced that it led to icing at the compressor.  I think that my 4" thick filters need replacing about once a month.

 

I have enclosed a simple (but not terribly well layed out) spread sheet to do this calculation.

 

David

[David Friedman]

One thing that is not well recognized is that air leakage and not r value dominates.  My house is quite big - 2700 sq feet with a full finished 2700 walkout below - and as I mentioned we keep it cold while in florida.

 

But the best invistment I made was using blown solid insulation everywheres and getting the house energy star certified by having a house leakage test done by installing a blower in the front door that evacuates the house and then they measure how fast pressure returns. 

 

The consequence of such a tight house is the need for a continuous air recovery system which I installed.  This insures inflow of enough air exhchanges per day to keep house from mold and uses energy recovery to extract heat from exit air into incoming so frigid air isn't introduced by the sytem when it is very cold outside.

 

David

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Kevin Kuntz <kmk...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Tom Berkey]

My experience with the ACHP (10 kW electric resistance heating in AHU) is that the electric heat kicks in at about 15°F. I know this because I monitor the current to the heating elements using a Brultech current monitor. As the ACHP was not set up to turn on the electric heat during the defrost cycle (at least not with the v1.06 control board), I am confident that my observations are correct although there is probably a small error in the exact temperature. I am not monitoring the outside temp at the HP, but I have sensors at two locations in my back yard, one about 6' above the HP and another in a tree about 25' away. My HP is located on the south side of the house & under a deck.

Tom

[one mad dealer]

The +2 blinking is 3rd stage and is not good. When that is blinking,
resistance heat is on with the hp stage 2. When the hp gets a Y2 call
(second stage) in heating, the outdoor unit uses outdoor temp to
decide what mode to be in. The Y2O is Y2 Out which is the signal to
ramp up the speed of the indoor unit fan. The blinking +2 is
indicating the thermostat telling the air handler to run resistance
heat regardless of what mode the outdoor unit is in. I think everyone
is seeing the importance of those sensors being accurate. It is
crucial to the operation and directly effects efficiency and comfort.

Gabe

> > On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Kevin Kuntz <kmku...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Hey guys,
>
> >> This quote startled me:
> >> "This Y2 is the dreaded blinking second stage on the TS and is to be
> >> avoided and when the compressors are
> >> working correctly and the house is correctly sized to the Acadia"
>
> >> During the winter my thermostat frequently shows the blinking "+
> >> 2" (many times a day).  Ever since it was installed in 2008.  I
> >> figured that was the booster compressor.  I don't have electric backup
> >> strips.  Sounds like I was wrong?  It's a small house (1,600 sq/ft
> >> ranch) and I have a 3T.  Seems like with that size home the 3 is all
> >> I'd need in white plains NY where it doesn't get nearly as cold as
> >> parts north.  I have R49 insulation in the attic and keep the
> >> thermostat on 67ish.  If that blinking "+ 2" is indeed "dreaded" then
> >> what can I do to get it resolved?  Was the installation done wrong?
>
> >> My winter electric bills are huge - ~ $700/month for dec/jan/feb.
> >> That's Con-Ed rates, which are insane, but I was expecting better.
>

> >> Kevin- Hide quoted text -

[Gene]

We saw a distressing amount of blinking +2 this past winter........

Gene

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Tom Berkey]

How much do you pay/kWH? What is the average temp for the winter months in your area?? $700/month is outrageous! What has been your kWH consumption for the 3 months you quoted??? Sounds like you have been heating w/electricity only all winter!

[Kevin Kuntz]

I agree Tom, and you're probably right on the money. My installer did
a poor job and I've been scrambling to find someone with the expertise
to really look at this thing. The old installer told me the blinking
+2 was totally normal. what an idiot (me too, apparently..). He also
told me he didn't install resistance heat because i wouldn't need it.
maybe he did? can i easily check to see if i have it? ahh! so many
questions.

anyway here is the kwh breakdown:

Dec: 2,384 Kwh
Jan: 3,168 Kwh
Feb: 2,626 Kwh

Jan was obviously the biggest, and was right around $700. Dec and Feb
were around $525 & $485 respectively.

I wish I knew what to do about this +2 situation. sounds like my
sensors are messed up. If I could just fly Gabe down in the private
jet I don't have.

[Tom Berkey]

Kevin - I will reply in more detail later, but perhaps you could do a little research on WeatherUnderground & find out the degree-days for the months that you quoted. This is the only way to compare different climates. It may take a little digging to find this info, but it should be available to you. For example, at this location the HDD were: 1119 (Dec10), 1330 (Jan11) and 1078 (Feb11). Your kWH aren't too exorbitant - just your $/kWH!!! Where I live in Utah we pay about $0.10/kWH; outside of town it is more like $0.07/kWH and in WA we pay $0.05/kWH. Most of the intermountain West derives power from plants that use coal to generate power; in WA it is hydro- and wind power. The city here in UT uses diesel to generate electricity + some H2O power. 

Tom

[Tom Berkey]

Make that HEATING degree-days. There is also something called COOLING degree days.

[Wolfe 4656]

Thats about what I use in a 1850 sq ft ranch in Ohio our rates here are approx.08cents/kwh during the winter and 12cents/kwh during the summer. That is keeping the thermostat at 72.
December: 2509
Jan : 2670
Feb: 3419

[Kevin Kuntz]

I live in new york. just a few miles north of NYC. Based on what I
pay and my usage it looks like ConEdison charges right around 21 cents/
kwh in the winter and 24 cents/kwh in the summer. One of the 'perks'
of the big apple I guess...

here are my HDD for the winter (taken from http://www.weatherdatadepot.com):

924 (Dec10)
1074 (Jan11)
808 (Feb11)

Kevin

[Tom Berkey]

OK, what I do is calculate kWH/HDD in order to compare different years. As I mentioned, it can also account for different climatic regions. So, if I do that for your location I get: Dec (2.58), Jan (2.95) and Feb (3.25). For this location in winter 07/08: Dec (1.15), Jan (1.81) and Feb (2.18). This is an admittedly crude method as it includes ALL of the kWH you consume & not just the heating kWH. Our home is total electric, so H2O heating (I have an on-demand system) and cooking (etc) are all factored into the calculated parameter. I do know that with no heating or cooling load, our consumption is about 7-8 kWH/day, so that is a baseline for our particular home (BTW I have NOT corrected my data for this). Your results may vary!! However, your kWH/HDD values are roughly a factor of 2 larger, so it may be that your Acadia is not working properly. Our house is about 1600 sq ft and has 6" insulation. It also has a solar heating system but this contributes little to the heating load at mid-winter. Hopes this helps ...

Tom

[Kris Heikkila]

On Jul 13, 2011, at 9:26 AM, David Friedman wrote:
>
> One very big factor is cleanliness of filters. I found that when my
> filters got dirty (and I didn't think they were that dirty) the air
> flow was so reduced that it led to icing at the compressor.

Faulty logic.
The lack of airflow will cause the heat to stay in the system. This
would give the system less of a reason to ice as it was not removing
the heat to your home correctly. A dirty filter would make your HOME
ice up as the system would not deliver the correct amount of btus, and
you would freeze.

Kris

[Kris Heikkila]

Hey, thread hijackers.... Please start a new thread. 

[Kevin Kuntz]

Thanks for the input Tom - Kris is correct. We hijacked this thread.
I'll start a new one regarding energy consumption.

[Brian Goates]

Sorry about the high jack but no new thread or missed it. 

 

Peak use in coldest month, 4 ton unit, average temp, 36  (meaning lows near zero) was
4,407  KWH.

Newer home, 3,000 sq feet, mile high in elevation, good insulation, lots of glass. This was worst month of the year.

 

Total cost was $417, less $125 normal use nets out to $292 for heating. Propane would have been about $500.

 

The machine was iced up so not as efficient as I wait patiently for the probe issue to be addressed and rectified.

 

 

 

Brian

[Kris Heikkila]

3 hours , a full stomach , 2 beers later, nice long shower..........AH
HA!!!!!!!
you were referring to cooling mode?

[one mad dealer]

Dirty filters will cause indoor coil icing in cooling mode. Dirty
filters will cause reduced capacity in heating. As I said before, I
will take thermal images of my test unit running in heat mode and see
what it shows.

Gabe

[David Friedman]

But when the system reverses and tries to de-ice - the heat generated back out to the outdoor coils is impaired - so this could cause icing and that was the input that my HVAC guy got from Hallowell service which was still alive at that point.

 

David

[ts]

Would it potentially be worth a try to jump out the strip heat and see
if the outdoor unit can keep up in heating mode? I know I saw the
dreded +2 blinking a lot this past January in CT...Feb. was not quite
so bad. I was fortunate and did not have any of the icing problems
that others have talked about so my sensors must have been working
correctly?

On Jul 13, 7:05 am, David Friedman <dafrie...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Gene
>
> I assume you have the manual which has the detailed bin and mode chart and
> which uses different language and terms.  (H1,2,3 vs modes)
>
> It does take a bit of study to understand the bin/mode logic.  But as I read
> the tables - there is never any electric heat call unless Y2 at the TS
> demands it except for the less than -30 bin.  Also in bin D there is a
> jumper setup that avoids electric heat even for a y2 call.  (J2 mode in bin
> D (25 to 31) avoids strip heat even if Y2 is invoked)
>
> So if heat supplied with Y1 call is adequate to reach temp - the only use of
> electric strip is for de-ice (which is an energy hog but not unique to
> Acadia) and bin A below -30.
>
> I suspect in the real world - given the variables of air flow and insulation
> that there are many systems for which Y1 call at TS won't get house to
> desired temp - and system goes to Y2 and calls fro strip heat - but I really
> don't think any subtrafuge is involved.
>
> One thing i plan to do this next winter is to put a glass window on the
> panels in my outdoor unit  so the guy who takes care of my house can tell me
> what mode my system is running in at what temps so I can monitor
> performance.
>
> David
>
> David Friedman
>
> David
>

> 2011/7/13 Gene <enalli...@hotmail.com>

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[David Friedman]

Clearly this would determine the "balance point" wher max output of the unit just holds temp. 

 

Gabe -- I would like instructions on how to change wiring to eliminate strip heat also since when I am in fla. there my only concern is not having pipes freeze - and would not be sensitive to the "cole air blast' when de-ice is taking place.

 

david

2011/7/14 ts <swie...@aol.com>

[one mad dealer]

Anyone can disable the electric heat right at the board in the indoor
unit. There is a jumper on the top right that says heat- no heat.
Just move the jumper to no heat. I will caution everyone that when
the unit defrosts, it will blow cold air. Also, if you put the
thermostat into emergency heat, it won't do anything until that jumper
is moved back.

Gabe

> > > > >> ÄT 33.0 31.2 29.4 27.5 26.2 25.4 23.6 21.8 20.4 18.8 17.3 16.3 15.714.1

> > > > >> 12.5 10.9 9.3 7.6
> > > > >> kW 2.81 2.75 2.69 2.63 2.6 2.57 2.52 2.46 2.43 2.37 2.32 2.28 2.26
> > > 2.20
> > > > >> 2.14 2.08 2.02 1.97
> > > > >> Amps 12.8 11.8 11.1 10.4 10.0 9.8 9.2 8.7 8.3 8.0 7.6 7.4 7.3 6.9 6.4
> > > 6.0
> > > > >> 5.5 4.9
> > > > >> COP 4.64 4.49 4.32 4.12 3.99 3.90 3.71 3.50 3.30 3.13 2.95 2.83 2.75
> > > 2.54
> > > > >> 2.31 2.07 1.82 1.53
> > > > >> EER 15.9 15.3 14.8 14.1 13.6 13.3 12.7 12.0 11.3 10.7 10.1 9.7 9.4 8.7
> > > 7.9
> > > > >> 7.1 6.2 5.2
> > > > >> HI PR 400 383 369 352 344 338 324 311 298 285 274 267 262 252 243 233
> > > 224
> > > > >> 216
> > > > >> LO PR 143 132 124 114 108 104 95 85 77 68 60 56 54 46 39 33 29 23
> > > > >> *
> > > > >> On Jul 12, 2011, at 6:00 PM, David Friedman wrote:
>
> > > > >> Kris's decision to abandon his Acadia in favor of a quality Heat pump
>

[David Friedman]

Gabe

 

I will be leavng about 9:30 --- Is your brother coming?

 

I thouoght I could disconnect the wire from the outdoor unit - and still have electric heat if i used the TS.  And I want to rewire to allow the TS to call for ESH even if teh outdoor power is off.

 

David

[ts]

Are you refering to the board inside the air handler?

On Jul 14, 8:22 am, one mad dealer <G...@JosephsIAQ.com> wrote:
> Anyone can disable the electric heat right at the board in the indoor

> unit.  There is ajumperon the top right that says heat- no heat.
> Just move thejumperto no heat.  I will caution everyone that when

> the unit defrosts, it will blow cold air.  Also, if you put the
> thermostat into emergency heat, it won't do anything until thatjumper
> is moved back.
>
> Gabe
>
> On Jul 14, 7:31 am, ts <swier...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Would it potentially be worth a try to jump out the strip heat and see
> > if the outdoor unit can keep up in heating mode?  I know I saw the
> > dreded +2 blinking a lot this past January in CT...Feb. was not quite
> > so bad.  I was fortunate and did not have any of the icing problems
> > that others have talked about so my sensors must have been working
> > correctly?
>
> > On Jul 13, 7:05 am, David Friedman <dafrie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Gene
>
> > > I assume you have the manual which has the detailed bin and mode chart and
> > > which uses different language and terms.  (H1,2,3 vs modes)
>
> > > It does take a bit of study to understand the bin/mode logic.  But as I read
> > > the tables - there is never any electric heat call unless Y2 at the TS
> > > demands it except for the less than -30 bin.  Also in bin D there is a

> > >jumpersetup that avoids electric heat even for a y2 call.  (J2 mode in bin

[Brian Goates]

Attached is the board for the indoor handler if this helps.

[torro power]

I placed toggle switches on I believe it was W1 and W2 on the side of the AH, one controls the heat strip when the compressor goes into defrost mode and the other when the temp gets so low that the unit cant keep and activates the heat strip for supplemental heat. You can toggle the strip on and off to see how temp is maintained and see if you can keep it off all together. Hopefully with the new board and sensors I will get better performance and will see if I cant cut out all or part of the heat strip during the winter. I am also considering putting a selector dial on the AH to adjust for humid, dry and normal operation.

[Alan Del Rossa]

Guys,
If you want an accurate way to monitor your usage this is the best. I purchased a TED (the energy detective) with 2 sensors. The first is connected to the whole house  main panel and the second is mounted on the sub panel that the heat pump is connected to. With these 2 monitors (you can have up to 4) you can tell exactly what your system is doing. I recommend the Ted 5000. You can print out your usage. I have had mine for 2 months and it works great.
Alan

 

---

From: khei...@myfairpoint.net
To: hallowel...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Compare Goodman and boosted Heat Pump. Please start a new thread.
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:59:00 -0400

[Alan Del Rossa]

Gabe,
One of the posts they were talking about the different modes of heating and cooling but I couldn't find it. Well anyway when I installed my unit I thought Hallowell's table in the manual confusing and not very user friendly. I made up a new table that I think is easier to read. I actually had sent it to Hallowell to use in newer manuals but that never happened. I have attached it so others might use it.
Thanks for all the work you have been doing.

Alan

 

> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 18:59:41 -0700
> Subject: Re: Compare standard and boosted Heat Pumps
> From: Ga...@JosephsIAQ.com
> To: hallowel...@googlegroups.com

[Alan Del Rossa]

Here is a chart I made to make it easier to understand the modes. Hope it helps.

Alan

 

> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:31:26 -0700

> Subject: Re: Compare Goodman and boosted Heat Pump

> From: enal...@hotmail.com
> To: hallowel...@googlegroups.com

> > >> 16.9 14.7 12.6 10.3
> > >> ΔT 33.0 31.2 29.4 27.5 26.2 25.4 23.6 21.8 20.4 18.8 17.3 16.3 15.7 14.1

> > >> 12.5 10.9 9.3 7.6
> > >> kW 2.81 2.75 2.69 2.63 2.6 2.57 2.52 2.46 2.43 2.37 2.32 2.28 2.26 2.20
> > >> 2.14 2.08 2.02 1.97
> > >> Amps 12.8 11.8 11.1 10.4 10.0 9.8 9.2 8.7 8.3 8.0 7.6 7.4 7.3 6.9 6.4 6.0
> > >> 5.5 4.9
> > >> COP 4.64 4.49 4.32 4.12 3.99 3.90 3.71 3.50 3.30 3.13 2.95 2.83 2.75 2.54
> > >> 2.31 2.07 1.82 1.53
> > >> EER 15.9 15.3 14.8 14.1 13.6 13.3 12.7 12.0 11.3 10.7 10.1 9.7 9.4 8.7 7.9
> > >> 7.1 6.2 5.2
> > >> HI PR 400 383 369 352 344 338 324 311 298 285 274 267 262 252 243 233 224
> > >> 216
> > >> LO PR 143 132 124 114 108 104 95 85 77 68 60 56 54 46 39 33 29 23
> > >> *
> > >> On Jul 12, 2011, at 6:00 PM, David Friedman wrote:
> >

> > >> Kris's decision to abandon his Acadia in favor of a quality Heat pump from

> > >> York or Carrior or Ruud led me back to the logic of why we bought these
> > >> systems in the first place.
> >
> > >> Please take a careful look at the BTU output vs temp for the 2, 3 and 4
> > >> ton Acadia's.  Note that todays standard heat pumps from any of the major
> > >> vendors are basically the same as the primary one and two segments of our
> > >> Acadia's performance,  and there is a clear and very large differance at low
> > >> temperatures between the raw primary one and primary two outputs and the
> > >> boosted BTU curve when primary two runs in conjuntion with the booster.
> >
> > >> If one wants to "predict" the performance of any of the standard York,
> > >> Ruud, or Carrior units - simply look at their performance BTU output at the
> > >> temps they spec - and draw the sloped curve towards zero output as shown on
> > >> our primary one and primary two curves attached.  These better new heat
> > >> pumps may slide that curve up or down a bit but the Acadia has an entire

> > >> performance domain of boosted performance.
> >
> > >> So - Kris.  Your winter bills will be higher.  Why not just buy a new
> > >> compressor from F.W. Webb - install the new starting circuit and live with
> > >> the better performance and ongoing service aids that will be forthcoming
> > >> form "Savemyacadia.com"
> >
> > >> I have attached the original performance curves of the 2,3, and 4 ton
> > >> Acadia's,  and a spec showing two points on  a high end York heat pump. Note
> > >> that the 4 ton York puts out  BTU's on virtually the same curve that our
> > >> pimary one and two compressors show given that at 47 it is putting out about
> > >> 30kbtu and at 17 it is down to 20 it is following the same degradation
> > >> curve.
> >
> > >> BUT THE ACADIA KICKS IN THE BOOSTER AT 20 DEGREES AND STILL PUTS OUT 20K
> > >> BTU'S AT ZERO.
> >
> > >> There is simply no comparison.  The Acdia is an all climate heat pump and
> > >> the others (yet) are not!!
> >
> > >> Sorry Kris
> >
> > >> David Friedman
> > >> <Acadia%20Performance%20Charts.pdf><york data.pdf>- Hide quoted text -

[one mad dealer]

Awesome, thanks! The new site has a downloads page for manuals, etc.
I'll check it out, and add it to the site. You're right, it can be
confusing and people often don't know exactly what the system is
doing, especially techs who dont know the acadia well.

Gabe

On Jul 14, 8:30 pm, Alan Del Rossa <delro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Gabe,
> One of the posts they were talking about the different modes of heating and cooling but I couldn't find it. Well anyway when I installed my unit I thought Hallowell's table in the manual confusing and not very user friendly. I made up a new table that I think is easier to read. I actually had sent it to Hallowell to use in newer manuals but that never happened. I have attached it so others might use it.
> Thanks for all the work you have been doing.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 18:59:41 -0700
> > Subject: Re: Compare standard and boosted Heat Pumps

> > From: G...@JosephsIAQ.com

> > To: hallowel...@googlegroups.com
>
> > Dirty filters will cause indoor coil icing in cooling mode. Dirty
> > filters will cause reduced capacity in heating. As I said before, I
> > will take thermal images of my test unit running in heat mode and see
> > what it shows.
>
> > Gabe
>
> > On Jul 13, 9:24 pm, Kris Heikkila <kheikk...@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
> > > 3 hours , a full stomach , 2 beers later, nice long shower..........AH  
> > > HA!!!!!!!
> > > you were referring to cooling mode?
> > > On Jul 13, 2011, at 9:26 AM, David Friedman wrote:
>
> > > > One very big factor is cleanliness of filters.  I found that when my  
> > > > filters got dirty (and I didn't think they were that dirty) the air  
> > > > flow was so reduced that it led to icing at the compressor.
>
> > > Faulty logic.
> > > The lack of airflow will cause the heat to stay in the system. This  
> > > would give the system less of a reason to ice as it was not removing  
> > > the heat to your home correctly. A dirty filter would make your HOME  
> > > ice up as the system would not deliver the correct amount of btus, and  
> > > you would freeze.
>
> > > Kris
>
>
>

>  Compressor Mode Operation.xls
> 36KViewDownload- Hide quoted text -

[Chris]

Boy are you right!! Are one of these guys going to come down and help
you fix this? These things are sinking money pits. Whatever happens
this time, if mine gets going again and dies again, I say f##k the
environment, I'm burning cow dung, I can get all I want for free, it's
everywhere!! Whoever mentioned a while ago that they think the dealer/
wholesaler is responisble is probably right. I'm calling my lawyer
tomorrow. It's every acadia for itself!!

On Jul 12, 6:42 pm, Kris Heikkila <kheikk...@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
> Sir:
>
> Just the facts...
> If you compare the cop of the goodman DSZC180361A two stage 18 seer  
> heat pump......
>

> If you compare the cop of the two systems . the cop of the goodman out  
> classes the Acadia till 5 degrees f
>

> At 60' the Goodman is at a cop of 4.49, The Acadia is listed at 4.12  
> at 62 '                great for 7 months out of the year

> At 30' the Goodman is at a cop of 3.30. The Acadia is listed at  
> 2.80                           still ok for another 3 months

> At 10' the Goodman is at a cop of 2.54. The Acadia is listed at  
> 2.35                           maybe 1 month

> At   5' the Goodman is at a cop of 2.31. The Acadia is listed at 0'  
> and cop of 2.21          the rest.....

> Expanded Heating Data
> DSZC180361A* / CA*F3642C6A*+TXV/ MBE1600**-1 — High Stage

> Outdoor Ambient Temperature
> 65 60 55 50 47 45 40 35 30 25 20 17 15 10 5 0 -5 -10
> MBh 44.5 42.2 39.7 37.1 35.4 34.3 31.9 29.4 27.5 25.4 23.4 22.0 21.2  
> 19.1 16.9 14.7 12.6 10.3
> ΔT 33.0 31.2 29.4 27.5 26.2 25.4 23.6 21.8 20.4 18.8 17.3 16.3 15.7  
> 14.1 12.5 10.9 9.3 7.6
> kW 2.81 2.75 2.69 2.63 2.6 2.57 2.52 2.46 2.43 2.37 2.32 2.28 2.26  
> 2.20 2.14 2.08 2.02 1.97
> Amps 12.8 11.8 11.1 10.4 10.0 9.8 9.2 8.7 8.3 8.0 7.6 7.4 7.3 6.9 6.4  
> 6.0 5.5 4.9
> COP 4.64 4.49 4.32 4.12 3.99 3.90 3.71 3.50 3.30 3.13 2.95 2.83 2.75  
> 2.54 2.31 2.07 1.82 1.53
> EER 15.9 15.3 14.8 14.1 13.6 13.3 12.7 12.0 11.3 10.7 10.1 9.7 9.4 8.7  
> 7.9 7.1 6.2 5.2
> HI PR 400 383 369 352 344 338 324 311 298 285 274 267 262 252 243 233  
> 224 216
> LO PR 143 132 124 114 108 104 95 85 77 68 60 56 54 46 39 33 29 23

> > <Acadia%20Performance%20Charts.pdf><york data.pdf>- Hide quoted text -

[Kris Heikkila]

I just got done installing the new Goodman.
It differs from the Acadia slightly. I looked inside. The system has
only a start/run cap combo for compressor and fan. The board has built
in diagnostic codes and leds. The system will not allow a start up
until both pressure switches are in the same state( preventing hard
starts.)
It is connected to a Honeywell Pro vision 8000 th8321. I have used
this t-stat in over 300 homes and for almost any application it works
flawlessly. I will now have the ability to control humidity as well as
adjust the aggressiveness of the system and delay the dreaded y2
call. I never liked the White Rodgers design and told Duane so at the
training. He said Honeywell did not want to get involved with them
just yet. I can see why now.
On a last note. I am pleased to see a Copland scroll compressor ( 2
stage) inside my new pump. I wish the Acadia had it from the start,
our problems may have never surfaced.
I will be keeping track of my bills very closely over the next year or
two. i will post the numbers for all to see.
Cheers. Kris Heikkila

[David Friedman]

I am happy to report that over 30 people have restored their Acadia's to full service and are very happily enjoying low cost AC and look forward to low cost heating next winter.  As I have posted - the Acadia produces over 20000 more BTU's at zero degrees than the Goodman and this will show up in heating costs.

 

I think my "dream post" which looked forward to HVAC companies finding out about the "Save my acadia" site is starting to materialize.  The Acadia is not that complex and can be maintained, and there will eventually be a perhaps a few thousand or more people who will remove the built in failure mechanism that took down your Acadia,  and will maintain them through a combination of do it yourself efforts and eventual HVAC sign on.

 

Chris.  Your negativism and sarcasm is totally unwanted and unwarranted.  Keep it to your self.

 

David Friedman

[Kris Heikkila]

. When referring two things of similar nature one must find the common denominator. One cannot compare apple to oranges, unless we describe them a fruit only.

Your continued pointing to a "fact " that the Acadia puts out more btu's than the Goodman at zero. This is a misleading statement.

To compare one must look at all variables.

This is done with the cop. The cop is defined as the relevant percentage or multiplier of power compared to the out put of the system. My cop is 2.07 the Acadia is at 2.21. This would indicate that the Acadia is using more electricity , possibly due to the 2 compressors running vs the goodman's one as a differential of .14 would not equal 14-20k btus without the changing of the laws of physics.

Yes the system will put out 14,000 ish more btu's but at only a minor cost differential. as stated .14. And I think that if I had a strip heater that used the same extra power the Acadia used so both were of equal power consumption the .14 would show only a 3-5k btu change. Not much to care about.

The goal of this group was for instructive and constructive thought exchange. 

You consistently tell people ( me included) that they are wrong and that the only way is your way.

I find this disrespectful and contrary to our ( ALL OF OUR ) goals, a  well running heating system , that will not cost an arm and a leg to run.

Please continue to educate us and refine the electrical fix that you and Gabe have done so well. But allow some input from the rest of us, thinking outside the box may well get us all a better heating system.

With respect,

Kris Heikkila

.

[David Friedman]

Kris

 

This is really getting a bit silly. 

 

Your mathmatics (in my professional opinion) don't correctly deal with the energy use one experiences as one uses a heater with a given COP and needs to supplement its  inadequate heat with a strip heater.  A COP of n means that one uses 1/n of the energy to get the desired heat output. Higher COP is better!

 

To compute relative performance one must postulate a needed heat level to get to what is called balance point - or the heat needed to stabilize at a given temp. Note that strip heat has a COP of (less than) one vs the 2 plus of both heat pumps. 

 

I will use one as the COP for strip heat for computation purposes and illustrate what happens at balance point.

 

One needs to take the energy produced by both heat pump and strip heat, and divide by their respective COP's to calculate energy input including the strip heat needed to get the house to balance point.

 

The Acadia produces almost 40000 BTU's at zero degrees and the Goodman 14000.  Given that both pumps produce on the order of 60000 BTU's at their better operating points,  let us assume that one needs say 50000 BTU's to keep the house at some reduced but accepatable balance point.  Doing this correctly dramatically illustrates the Acadia advantage. The math is simple.  One takes the heat out of the heat pump and divides by COP to compute energy input required using a cop of one for the strip heat supplying the differential.

 

Tje Acadia uses 40,000/2.2 + 10000/1 =  28000 BTU's of electricity to get to the balance point specified.   This compares to  14000/2.07 + 36000/1=43000 btu's needed to heat your house to balance point using the Goodman plus strip heat at zero degrees.

 

Doing the math correctly shows that your pump will cost you 43000/28000 times as much to run at zero degrees.

 

One can do this for all temp days - and compute the true operating cost as a running average.  Given that zero degree days are statistically rare - the difference won't be nearly as dramatic as the difference in energy on a zero degree day. Do the math correctly and you will realize why the Acadia specs were so appealing.

 

David Friedman

 

I have no reason to care if you use the Acadia or not - but ignoring the fact that the Acadia produces almost twice the heat output at a higher COP is not using physics correctly. 

 

David

[one mad dealer]

Kris,

Even though you've replaced your acadia, please join the new site
savemyacadia.org if you haven't already. There is a "replacement
options" topic on the new forum where I would like to see people offer
their experience with a replacement unit from install to operating
cost. Also, there is a legal topic for people who have or had an
acadia. Your input will be helpful for people put in a similar
situation.

Gabe

> >> > DSZC180361A* / CA*F3642C6A*+TXV/ MBE1600**-1 -- High Stage

> ...
>
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[Hing Lum]

I tried to add a note and an attachment and link on "Replacement Option" Forum for Mitsubishi City Multi Heat Pumps which I recently googled but had problems adding my note. Gave up after 3 tries.

http://ductlessac.com/products/category.asp?ProductCategoryID=5

Adding attachment does not seem to be obvious. 

2011/7/18 one mad dealer <Ga...@josephsiaq.com>

[one mad dealer]

Hing,

You can add attachment to the forums on the new site. If you are
starting a new topic, there will be an attachments tab to upload an
attachment. If you are going to reply in a discussion, click on "full
editor" below text box and the will be an attachment tab. We will be
adding FAQ's to help with issues like you had. The link you posted is
for ductless units. Anything that says "duct free", "ductless" or
"minisplit" means that the outdoor unit needs to be tied into seperate
indoor units. A place for something like the City Multi is an office
building. If people have an acadia already, then they have ductwork
and it is most likely worth using a central air system.


Gabe

On Jul 18, 11:21 pm, Hing Lum <bestrealestat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I tried to add a note and an attachment and link on "Replacement Option"
> Forum for Mitsubishi City Multi Heat Pumps which I recently googled but had
> problems adding my note. Gave up after 3 tries.
>
> http://ductlessac.com/products/category.asp?ProductCategoryID=5
>
> Adding attachment does not seem to be obvious.
>

> 2011/7/18 one mad dealer <G...@josephsiaq.com>

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Chris]

Here I thought I was the only one to dare question the emperor's new
clothes!

There is no single solution to everyone's problems.

Theories are proven with evidance, not because someone says so.

None of this is tested or proven until the units have a chance to run
thru all seasons. The pump was designed for constant use below
freezing temps. Let me know after a couple winters, then I will kiss
the emperor's ring!

[Ernst den Broeder]

Old fuel bills can be handy in determining if your system is behaving ok.

e.g. My Acadia system uses about 6,400 kWh per year. (measured by
taking the old electric history and subtracting that from the new
bills). Comparing this to the old 2,200L/yr oil habit with a 70%
efficient oil furnace, it works out to about 59,000MJ of energy to keep
the house warm. 59GJ is around 16,100kWh in terms of resistance heat.
16.1kWh divided by 6.4kWh gives an overall system COP of around 2.5.
(for reference this is a 1,200sq.ft 1970's pre-fabricated bungalow
located in eastern Ontario with a conditioned basement)

On 7/13/2011 2:27 PM, Kevin Kuntz wrote:
> I agree Tom, and you're probably right on the money. My installer did
> a poor job and I've been scrambling to find someone with the expertise
> to really look at this thing. The old installer told me the blinking
> +2 was totally normal. what an idiot (me too, apparently..). He also
> told me he didn't install resistance heat because i wouldn't need it.
> maybe he did? can i easily check to see if i have it? ahh! so many
> questions.
>
> anyway here is the kwh breakdown:
>
> Dec: 2,384 Kwh
> Jan: 3,168 Kwh
> Feb: 2,626 Kwh
>
> Jan was obviously the biggest, and was right around $700. Dec and Feb
> were around $525& $485 respectively.
>
> I wish I knew what to do about this +2 situation. sounds like my
> sensors are messed up. If I could just fly Gabe down in the private
> jet I don't have.
>