Hallowell control boards

[Bob Dobbs]

Sorry I have to post this "anonymously", but this is not official
information.

I work for a control system company that has been around for 40+
years. We designed,
built, and programmed the Hallowell controller. Our contract with
Hallowell was not a
work-for-hire, so we own the control board design and software.

We are discussing how to make control boards available. Additional
information will
be available later.

And to clear up some questions I've seen in this group:

The last official software release was 1.07, released 5/6/2008.

An engineering test of a software upgrade (at the request of
Hallowell)
was sent to them on 12/30/2008 for approval. This would have been
software version 1.08, and had an internal version number of 0.08.
We
never received an "OK" from Hallowell, and so it was never
released.
However, they had a habit of updating boards with unreleased code,
so
this may be out in the field. If your controller turns on AUXHEAT
immediately
at the start of a defrost cycle, you have software version 1.08

[Tom Berkey]

Thanks Bob - this is encouraging news, so please keep this group up-to-
date if & when you have control boards available. Although it has been
stated that the control boards are a part of the excess inventory from
Hallowell, there is no obvious path by which they could be acquired
and subsequently marketed. From previous conversations in this group,
it would seem that the original systems (e.g. ACHP) were shipped with
v1.06. Can you provide more detail on the functionality of the various
(3?) software updates?

Tom Berkey

On Jun 8, 1:44 pm, Bob Dobbs <controlsystemprogram...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Gene]

Hi Bob,

Are you related to John Doe?????

Seriously, some members of this group have reported that the latest
board release was about a year ago, and had a numeric readout. Do you
know if this was 1.07, or 1.08?

Also, I believe it was reported that the latest release used
different, more accurate (??High impedance??) sensors. Again, any idea
if this would be 1.07 or 1.08?

Thanks. Gene

> >    at the start of a defrost cycle, you have software version 1.08- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[David Friedman]

Bob,

 

This is great news.  My guess is that F.W. Webb who distributd the product (A Mr. Scott Hines put together a parts procurement program including compressors as modified by hallowell) is trying to produce so as tosupport their installed base.  If they haven't been in the loop - they shood be and Scott can be reached at the e_mail I included in this e_mail.

 

I have scored a total breakthru in redesigning the starting circuit so that when upgraded - that part of the machine will be rock solid - and when the PC is at the latest rev with latest sensors - we are talking about the bestheat pump of the market - bar none!!!

 

David Friedman

 

P.S.  My only dissapointment so far has been the lack of response to my posts in HVAC-talk - trying to contact large Acadia installers so as to structure an ongoing support group much more widely based than this Google group - to feed info to the field as needed to service these machines.

[Chris Papademetrious]

Hi David,

Are you saying you have a final, testing solution to the starting
circuit problems for these units? If so, that is big news! The only
thing holding me from keeping the Acadia is that I have one of the old
control boards without the digital readout, and I had ice buildup
issues with it in the past.

- Chris

[David Friedman]

Chris,

 

Perhaps I am really dreaming,  or am insane ---- but every neuron of my brain says that my redesigned starting circuit using one of the existing GE relays and the existing start cap in a 2 wire start is a total solution to the compressor failures,  and when the machine is up to rev with PC and sensors - it is a better product than any on teh market.

 

As per this mornings post - I still haven't done the rewiring which I will get to this weekend.  I have not had much luck in contacting HVAC installers who have large installed bases so as to try incorporating a formal group to dissemenate technical help so as to allow the broader world of HVAC compnies to service these things - but I am still hopeful.

 

David

[Bob Dobbs]

There seems to be some confusion.

The control board the company I work for produced is this one:
http://imgur.com/0UkGI

If you have a different controller, one from a unit you know was
not one of the very first produced, I'd like to see a picture.

As for software, the released versions are:
1.02 -- first official release, Nov 16th 2006
1.03 -- never officially released, rolled into 1.04
1.04 -- Jan 9th, 2007
1.05 -- Feb 5th, 2008 Released to Hallowell only
1.06 -- Mar 6th, 2008
1.07 -- May 5th, 2008 Last official release
1.08 -- Requested by Hallowell, but never approved
Engineering sample code (internal version
number of 0.08) may have been loaded
into boards by Hallowell before shipment.

[Tom Berkey]

The board you showed is identical to a board that I installed in my
Hallowell ACHP on 3/13/2008. According to your time history, this was
likely v1.06. I was under the impression that a board with digital
diagnostic outputs was subsequently released. Can you clarify.

Thanks,
Tom

On Jun 9, 8:22 am, Bob Dobbs <controlsystemprogram...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Alan Del Rossa]

Chris,
I have a 3 ton unit with the original control board. I have watched my unit (from my basement window) rid itself of ice with the reversing valve. Knock on wood my unit is working. When my unit was installed in October of '09, I had issues with the contactors and shut the unit down to avoid damage. Chip Lucas, a great tech from Hallowell came to my home and replaced all the contractors with heavy duty GE's and all the capacitors. The system has worked great since then.
Just my 2 cents.

[Bob Dobbs]

On Jun 9, 12:54 pm, Tom Berkey <tom.ber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The board you showed is identical to a board that I installed in my
> Hallowell ACHP on 3/13/2008. According to your time history, this was
> likely v1.06. I was under the impression that a board with digital
> diagnostic outputs was subsequently released. Can you clarify.

Let me quote myself:

[Chris]

That's the board I have, v 1.07. It's the original board to my unit
that was delivered in aug 08. Would it be possible to get the source
code or logic flow for the programming for those who may want to make
modifications to their unit? Could you discuss the changes
implemented in the different versions? Thanks!!

On Jun 9, 11:22 am, Bob Dobbs <controlsystemprogram...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Bob Dobbs]

On Jun 9, 1:11 pm, Chris <cpeters...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> That's the board I have, v 1.07.  It's the original board to my unit
> that was delivered in aug 08.  Would it be possible to get the source
> code or logic flow for the programming for those who may want to make
> modifications to their unit?  Could you discuss the changes
> implemented in the different versions?  Thanks!!

The company I work for invested $$$ in designing the hardware and
writing the software in exchange for the anticipation of future
sales. Hallowell did not "buy" our services, which is why we own
the hardware and software. Part of recovering our investment
in the wake of Hallowell's bankruptcy is the aftermarket sales of
controllers.

In addition, there are a number of legal considerations. Hallowell
provided their specifications, and NDAs and other legal obligations
are still in effect.

Not to mention safety considerations -- set the wrong outputs,
blow up the unit (and someone standing nearby).

As for discussion of changes, some of them I can give a
"high level" overview of, but others I can't discuss as it involves
internal information that is under NDA and other restrictions.

The best I can see happening is, given a known hardware
change (such as the starting circuit, discussed elsewhere) or
generally accepted feature request, I revisit the software and
do an upgrade. But, due to legal restrictions, this might
involve returning boards to the factory for a software upgrade
or a board exchange.

[one mad dealer]

Bob,

I sent you a pic of the Invensys board people are talking about. The
concern with the original board is that if the sensors are even off by
a few ohms, the board either thinks it has to defrost frequently or
not often enough, causing major icing. The new invensys board uses
high resistance thermistors so they can be more accurate. I'm
guessing the company you work for did not produce the new board. Did
your co. produce the sensors also?

Gabe

On Jun 9, 3:16 pm, Bob Dobbs <controlsystemprogram...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[C.Lucas]

Last I knew, the 'lastt' board revision was in fact the new control
board made by Invensys, with the LED trouble codes, and Dual-Fuel
capability.

[one mad dealer]

Are you Chip Lucas, the one we've included in discussions here?

Gabe

[David Friedman]

Chip,

 

I am so pleased that you have showed up!  You must be the Chip Lucas that ran service for Hallowell and everybody loved!!!!

 

I know you can be an invaluable member of a "Save my Acadia" organization.  I will be intouch with you privately.

 

David Friedman

[Chris Papademetrious]

Chip bailed me out of a couple pinches. I agree, what a great guy.
Welcome aboard, Chip!

- Chris

[Brian Goates]

Chip is my hero too and is/was the epitome of customer service, patience and knowledge. Glad to have you contributing here!

 

I was hoping you surfaced and have suspiciously wondered (over that now!) about David masquerading as Duane Hallowell!

 

I believe Duane wanted to make all this right and was a victim of a number of factors out of his control.

 

Brian 

[Chris Papademetrious]

Hi Brian,

This is what I've maintained from the beginning. If we are each sick
to our stomach about our own single unit, I can't imagine how Duane
feels after trying to help so many people with an innovative product,
and having it go south due to factors beyond his control.

- Chris

[Bob Dobbs]

On Jun 9, 5:38 pm, one mad dealer <G...@JosephsIAQ.com> wrote:

> I sent you a pic of the Invensys board people are talking about.  The
> concern with the original board is that if the sensors are even off by
> a few ohms, the board either thinks it has to defrost frequently or
> not often enough, causing major icing.  The new invensys board uses
> high resistance thermistors so they can be more accurate.  I'm
> guessing the company you work for did not produce the new board.  Did
> your co. produce the sensors also?

OK, I've got the picture. That is not one of ours.

The sensors for the original board are 100 ohm platinum RTDs, which
are quite accurate and stable -- they are used on many systems. I'm
not sure why there would be a problem with them and the Hallowell
boards.

We originally provided sensors, but they later moved to another
vendor.

As for high resistance thermistors, thermistors in general are not all
that accurate. However, with a change of pullup resistor, you can
substitute a 1K RTD for a 100ohm RTD -- since it is ratiometric,
neither the code nor the calibration is affected.

I'm wondering how I can test something on one of the "problem"
boards without losing my anonymity... It just needs a couple of
resistors and a comm board...

[Bob Dobbs]

On Jun 9, 7:10 pm, "C.Lucas" <ghostinthemachin...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Are the blink error codes known, or should I post them?

[one mad dealer]

The blink error codes are posted on the inside panel of the unit. The
sensors that your company originally provided, were they about an inch
long with thin wires or two inches long with thick wires? The units I
installed with the version 1.06 boards had smaller sensors that I
haven't had to replace. The bigger sensors have proved to be pretty
inaccurate after a year or two.

Gabe

On Jun 9, 9:41 pm, Bob Dobbs <controlsystemprogram...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Tom Berkey]

More complexity in the control board/sensor department.

Now it seems like more variables have been introduced: 1) at least two
variants of the control board exist; the 'Bob Dobbs' variant of which
v1.07 appears to be the last official release (5/5/2008) and 2) the
Invensys variant for which no time-line has been identified. The
Invensys appears to be equipped with a digital LED diagnostic system
and (perhaps) different temperature probes.

Which of the two Hallowell models (ACHP and Acadia) were supplied with
which control board?? Since the ACHP was apparently discontinued in
early 2008, it would seem that the Acadia was supplied with the
Invensys control board. Perhaps Gabe or one of the other dealers would
care to comment??

Finally, there are at least two variants of the temperature probes: 1)
the original (2 inch long?) and 2) the inch-long version released with
v1.06 of the control board. Gabe's recent comments seem to suggest
that yet another probe was associated with the Invensys control board
(high resistance thermistor)?

Perhaps Gabe can provide a photo of the Invensys board??

Hope someone can help to sort all this out!

Tom

[MICHAEL BARRICK]

it has some problems also it does ot put 24 vac to reversing valve all of the time it drops to 18 vac and won't pull inn the valve

----- Original Message -----
From: "C.Lucas" <ghostinth...@yahoo.com>
To: "Hallowell Acadia" <hallowel...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 9, 2011 7:10:50 PM
Subject: Re: Hallowell control boards

[Chris Papademetrious]

Hi Michael,

You're saying the Invensys boards are also not reliable? Have you
seen this reverse valve control failure on one Invensys board or
multiple boards?

- Chris

[Chris]

Would you please give us your opinion on the cause of our primary
compressor failures? It sounds like you may have real information.

On Jun 9, 7:10 pm, "C.Lucas" <ghostinthemachin...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Chris]

Mike, I was wondering if you had made any progress on your idea of a
plumbing or compressor change?

[Tom Berkey]

Does anyone know of a source for the Athena control boards? My ACHP
was upgraded to v1.06 in early 2008, but from comments on this forum,
the v1.07 board presumably addresses the icing issues and utilizes an
improved(?) temperature sensor. I assume that the Hallowell inventory
included these spare parts which leads me to ask if these were
actually sold at auction?? If so, is there someone out there willing
to sell these parts? Alternatively, perhaps "Bob Dobbs" can tell us if
these boards might still be available via Athena?? Would Athena sell
these to one of the HVAC companies that participate on this forum, or
to an individual user? I assume that the temperature sensors have to
be matched to a specific control algorithm and therefore to a specific
board release? Gabe's recent YouTube video showed two different boards/
sensor pairs, so one has to assume that some thought is needed in
swapping out control boards.

Tom

[one mad dealer]

For whatever reason, the company Bob works for doesn't want to sell
the boards to us or FW Webb. Seems odd since he said that his company
owns the rights to the board and wants to recoup money. Version 1.06
and 1.07 use the older 100ohm sensors. Its the invensys board that
uses a different set of sensors. If bobs company would sell the to my
co. I could offer them to this group. It would be nice to know why we
can't buy them.

Gabe

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Tom Berkey]

Are you saying that the both the longer and shorter sensors that you
illustrated in your latest video are both 100 ohm devices? I agree
that whomever Bob works for would want to recoup their investment -
but then again, perhaps they are afraid of being sued if a system with
their board failed (and they supplied it directly). I would think that
there are ways to get around that problem as well.

Tom

[one mad dealer]

The shorter sensors are something like 1000 ohm sensor and the shorter
were 100 ohm sensors. Won't work with each others board.

Gabe

[MICHAEL BARRICK]

yes 2 out of 5

[MICHAEL BARRICK]

i am going to re pipe my unit when i have time

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris" <cpete...@yahoo.com>
To: "Hallowell Acadia" <hallowel...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 8:24:06 PM
Subject: Re: Hallowell control boards

[David Friedman]

Why?  PCTR starting is the same electrically as a 125 u start cap - and we are bringing the cap down almost to that level as part of the switchover to USMR starting.  Why bother?

 

And if you simply change over to equalized start without taking advantage of soft starts - you have done nothing.  How are you going to create the logic signal that fires the "dump the pressure"  valve?

[Tom Berkey]

The initial post in this thread was from "Bob Dobbs" who was,
apparently, intimately involved in the design of the system control
boards that were used in the Hallowell ACHP and possibly in the early
versions of the Acadia. He has provided valuable insight into the
history of the control boards and their functionality. As one of the
few ACHP users contributing to this Forum, I would like to be able to
hedge my bets against any future system failures by acquiring one or
two spare control boards (& associated sensors). I would also like to
be able to upgrade my system to the latest iteration of the Athena
control board software. This is especially critical because with
Hallowell's demise, there is NO other source of this critical
component for the ACHP. On June 9, Bob indicated that "Part of

recovering our investment in the wake of Hallowell's bankruptcy is the

aftermarket sales of controllers." Gabe has subsequently noted that
Athena has "no interest" to making these boards available & Bob
himself has invoked his inability to discuss the Athena board design
in detail due to NDA concerns and other unspecified restrictions.
(Perhaps someone with a legal background can speak to the issue of the
viability of a non-disclosure agreement and a company that has gone
bankrupt and no longer exists.)

In return for being able to purchase a spare control board or two, I
am more than happy to indemnify Athena from any possible damage to the
ACHP due to installation errors or other misuse of the the control
board. If Athena wants to keep at arm's distance from the homeowner,
perhaps the boards could be provided through a third party such as
Gabe (also with a caveat against installation errors)?

Of course, all of the above applies to the Acadia but since the
majority (if not all) of these systems utilize a control board from a
different vendor, the same issues apply. In theory, the control boards
should not fail, but some will and we all need a source for this
component. I would appreciate suggestions & comments on this topic.

Note that Athena's web site (http://www.athenacontrols.com/pages/
products/custom.tpl) utilizes a photo of the ACHP control board.
Compare with: http://imgur.com/0UkGI previously cited by Bob Dobbs in
an earlier post.

Tom

On Jul 12, 7:44 pm, David Friedman <dafrie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why?  PCTR starting is the same electrically as a 125 u start cap - and we
> are bringing the cap down almost to that level as part of the switchover to
> USMR starting.  Why bother?
>
> And if you simply change over to equalized start without taking advantage of
> soft starts - you have done nothing.  How are you going to create the
> logic signal that fires the "dump the pressure"  valve?
>

> On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 9:04 PM, MICHAEL BARRICK <mjbarric...@embarqmail.com

[Ronald Eleveld]

A "hold harmless" clause or contract could be created that holds a vendor hamless from any damages, direct or indirect. further stating there is no warranty or guaranty that the parts will perform in any manner.

An NDA is generally between two parties, and successors and assigns and if on party no longer exists I do not see who can claim a breach of contract.

$0.02 and another $4 will get you a cup of coffee.