Camera problems
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Brian Davis
Aug 3, 2008, 3:30:55 PM8/3/08
to HALE TEAMS
[David - I hope it's OK to post this publicly, but I wanted to open up
the discussion for others on this as well. Any & all suggestions
welcome, as I still don't have a good reason.]
In a private email, David wrote me and suggested the following:
> Thinking about your camera failure, here are a couple of ideas for you
> to consider if you haven't already:
>
> 1. Most compact cameras have a single power button that is push
> for on, push again for off, so without other clues you might not really
> be sure what state you are in.
You're correct, and if the programming sequence misses a push, then it
will be exactly out of phase - in other words, every time it thinks
it's turning it on, it would be turning it off, and visa-versa. That
could have happened, and I kind of expected it as a possible problem
after cut-down, so the descent script never messed with it. If this is
what happened, it might show up as an offset or shift in the camera
position or the lever that if the functional LEGO mechanisms being
shifted out of place. I was aware of the possibility, however, and
watched for it in my "ground tests"... and never saw it. Not once.
As to "getting clues", I thought about directing a CDS cell at the LCD
of the camera, but decided it added more failure modes than it solved
(in other words, if the CDS cell was knocked away from the LCD during
the mission, the program would start thinking the camera was "stuck
off").
> To complicate matters, these cameras also have an automatic off
> feature that turns it off if it has been idle for long enough.
This is true - most (including this one) can be set to turn this off,
as was the case here. And in any event, the camera functioned for the
first picture, and for the actual mission it turns the camera on and
immediately starts taking video and pictures... in other words, there
is no delay to have a shut-down in during the first sequence.
> Nikon cameras have a "Play" button that toggles between picture taking
> and picture reviewing modes.
Yes. This is near the top of the camera, and recessed slightly.
It's... very unlikely that anything could have pressed this (I can't
press it manually, even using an axle, unless I dismount the camera
from the structure).
> if you have your camera set to number its pictures in a continuous
> sequence instead of starting the numbers over each time the memory card is
> emptied, then perhaps by taking a picture now and comparing the number to
> test pictures you took before launch, you can determine if any pictures were
> actually taken during the mission at all...
That's a good ideas, and when I get the camera back I'll check. Some
cameras have odd ways of saving images and videos, so I suppose it's
possible they are on the card but "lost" somehow, or that some of them
might have somehow become deleted, and it's something I might be able
to check. Thanks for a very good idea.
--
Brian Davis
the discussion for others on this as well. Any & all suggestions
welcome, as I still don't have a good reason.]
In a private email, David wrote me and suggested the following:
> Thinking about your camera failure, here are a couple of ideas for you
> to consider if you haven't already:
>
> 1. Most compact cameras have a single power button that is push
> for on, push again for off, so without other clues you might not really
> be sure what state you are in.
You're correct, and if the programming sequence misses a push, then it
will be exactly out of phase - in other words, every time it thinks
it's turning it on, it would be turning it off, and visa-versa. That
could have happened, and I kind of expected it as a possible problem
after cut-down, so the descent script never messed with it. If this is
what happened, it might show up as an offset or shift in the camera
position or the lever that if the functional LEGO mechanisms being
shifted out of place. I was aware of the possibility, however, and
watched for it in my "ground tests"... and never saw it. Not once.
As to "getting clues", I thought about directing a CDS cell at the LCD
of the camera, but decided it added more failure modes than it solved
(in other words, if the CDS cell was knocked away from the LCD during
the mission, the program would start thinking the camera was "stuck
off").
> To complicate matters, these cameras also have an automatic off
> feature that turns it off if it has been idle for long enough.
This is true - most (including this one) can be set to turn this off,
as was the case here. And in any event, the camera functioned for the
first picture, and for the actual mission it turns the camera on and
immediately starts taking video and pictures... in other words, there
is no delay to have a shut-down in during the first sequence.
> Nikon cameras have a "Play" button that toggles between picture taking
> and picture reviewing modes.
Yes. This is near the top of the camera, and recessed slightly.
It's... very unlikely that anything could have pressed this (I can't
press it manually, even using an axle, unless I dismount the camera
from the structure).
> if you have your camera set to number its pictures in a continuous
> sequence instead of starting the numbers over each time the memory card is
> emptied, then perhaps by taking a picture now and comparing the number to
> test pictures you took before launch, you can determine if any pictures were
> actually taken during the mission at all...
That's a good ideas, and when I get the camera back I'll check. Some
cameras have odd ways of saving images and videos, so I suppose it's
possible they are on the card but "lost" somehow, or that some of them
might have somehow become deleted, and it's something I might be able
to check. Thanks for a very good idea.
--
Brian Davis
Dave Parker
Aug 3, 2008, 5:17:29 PM8/3/08
to HALE TEAMS
No problem Brian, discussion here is fine.
I just thought of something else to try. I had a compact Sony camera
once that got some sand grains stuck in the telescoping lens
mechanism, and if you tried to turn the camera on and the lens jammed
and failed to extend fully, then the camera would turn back off. If
this happend to your camera for whatever reason (debris, or perhaps
lens blocked by something), even once, then it might have put your on/
off logic out of phase for the rest of the mission. I just tried this
on an old compact Nikon I have (blocked the lens to keep it from
extending on startup), and got a different result -- camera stayed on
but displayed "lens error", so the on/off wouldn't get out of sync,
but it would prevent pictures from being taken. You could experiment
with this failure mode too.
-- Dave Parker
I just thought of something else to try. I had a compact Sony camera
once that got some sand grains stuck in the telescoping lens
mechanism, and if you tried to turn the camera on and the lens jammed
and failed to extend fully, then the camera would turn back off. If
this happend to your camera for whatever reason (debris, or perhaps
lens blocked by something), even once, then it might have put your on/
off logic out of phase for the rest of the mission. I just tried this
on an old compact Nikon I have (blocked the lens to keep it from
extending on startup), and got a different result -- camera stayed on
but displayed "lens error", so the on/off wouldn't get out of sync,
but it would prevent pictures from being taken. You could experiment
with this failure mode too.
-- Dave Parker
Brian Davis
Aug 3, 2008, 8:32:22 PM8/3/08
to HALE TEAMS
On Aug 3, 5:17 pm, Dave Parker <bl...@nxtprograms.com> wrote:
> I had a compact Sony camera once that got some sand grains
> stuck in the telescoping lens mechanism, and if you tried to turn
> the camera on and the lens jammed and failed to extend fully,
> then the camera would turn back off.
Actually, the dreaded "lens error" is something that at least some
> I had a compact Sony camera once that got some sand grains
> stuck in the telescoping lens mechanism, and if you tried to turn
> the camera on and the lens jammed and failed to extend fully,
> then the camera would turn back off.
users of L11's have had. I fully expected it to be a problem after
impact, and possibly after cut-down... but again, I never had it hit
during testing, and had the extending lens hit something (if, for
instance, the camera or payload had not been settled into the payload
shell properly), then that first "test" picture wouldn't have worked.
That's why it was in the sequence, actually - and a valid picture
taken then shows that the payload was properly inserted into the
shell, and nothing was blocking the lens from extending.
If that first picture wouldn't have worked, this would be a very
likely cause. And a "lens error" of some type might still be the
issue...
> You could experiment with this failure mode too.
--
Brian Davis
David Leal
Aug 4, 2008, 1:11:12 PM8/4/08
to hale-...@googlegroups.com
I have one more idea (my camera Failed as well :()
When I was skiiing last winter on Kiruna between -20 and -30 deg Celsius, I found out that the camera got cold, and turned itself off, as if run out of battery, and even the lenses would be at stuck at "half startup", and next time you try, it would do try to close the lens to continue shutoff, and I wasn't even able to find a way to close the lens in order for it to be safe from scratches etc. this happened with my Sony P73, but also 3 years before in 2003 it happened with a previous version that had no optical zoom, this time at -20 in Finland, there it just turn off.
I was trying to have good insulation to prevent this, as we were expecting some -70 deg Celsius, but I wont know it that was my error until my payload is back, because we also had some memory Stick problems
Hope this helps somehow
Best Regards
--
David Leal Martinez
Joint European Master in Space Science and Technology
david...@gmail.com
+52 81 86478065 (Appartment, Monterrey MX)
+52 (1) 8115376717 (Celular Monterrey, Mexico)
ISE 04
When I was skiiing last winter on Kiruna between -20 and -30 deg Celsius, I found out that the camera got cold, and turned itself off, as if run out of battery, and even the lenses would be at stuck at "half startup", and next time you try, it would do try to close the lens to continue shutoff, and I wasn't even able to find a way to close the lens in order for it to be safe from scratches etc. this happened with my Sony P73, but also 3 years before in 2003 it happened with a previous version that had no optical zoom, this time at -20 in Finland, there it just turn off.
I was trying to have good insulation to prevent this, as we were expecting some -70 deg Celsius, but I wont know it that was my error until my payload is back, because we also had some memory Stick problems
Hope this helps somehow
Best Regards
--
David Leal Martinez
Joint European Master in Space Science and Technology
david...@gmail.com
+52 81 86478065 (Appartment, Monterrey MX)
+52 (1) 8115376717 (Celular Monterrey, Mexico)
ISE 04
Brian Davis
Aug 4, 2008, 2:58:51 PM8/4/08
to HALE TEAMS
On Aug 4, 1:11 pm, "David Leal" <david.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When I was skiiing last winter on Kiruna between -20 and -30 deg Celsius...
visit us here in the States sometime - I promise I can find someplace
warmer than that that still as a good snowpack for you to ski on
<grin>...
> I found out that the camera got cold, and turned itself off, as if run out of
> battery, and even the lenses would be at stuck at "half startup"...
I've no doubt that could have (and probably would have) happened at
altitude. I had a dedicated heater on the camera battery, but the
sensor still indicates it got cold (-19 C). The odd thing is that the
camera should have been taking pictures and video from the beginning
of the mission, when it certainly wasn't too cold (it started at a
comfy 18 C, and only dropped below -4 C after a MET of 80 minutes, in
the turbulent cutdown).
> I was trying to have good insulation to prevent this, as we were expecting
> some -70 deg Celsius, but I wont know it that was my error until my payload
> is back, because we also had some memory Stick problems
I'm very sorry to hear about your photo problems as well - I guess
those of us who are novices at this should be very thankful Eric flew
their SLR payload for some of those fantastic shots. Do you know if
the memory stick problems corrupted REEL-E's data?
> Hope this helps somehow
It does - it's yet another thing to check. I also had E^2 Lithiums in
the camera to try to prevent this, but it's another part of the
equation.
--
Brian Davis
> When I was skiiing last winter on Kiruna between -20 and -30 deg Celsius...
visit us here in the States sometime - I promise I can find someplace
warmer than that that still as a good snowpack for you to ski on
<grin>...
> I found out that the camera got cold, and turned itself off, as if run out of
I've no doubt that could have (and probably would have) happened at
altitude. I had a dedicated heater on the camera battery, but the
sensor still indicates it got cold (-19 C). The odd thing is that the
camera should have been taking pictures and video from the beginning
of the mission, when it certainly wasn't too cold (it started at a
comfy 18 C, and only dropped below -4 C after a MET of 80 minutes, in
the turbulent cutdown).
> I was trying to have good insulation to prevent this, as we were expecting
> some -70 deg Celsius, but I wont know it that was my error until my payload
> is back, because we also had some memory Stick problems
those of us who are novices at this should be very thankful Eric flew
their SLR payload for some of those fantastic shots. Do you know if
the memory stick problems corrupted REEL-E's data?
> Hope this helps somehow
It does - it's yet another thing to check. I also had E^2 Lithiums in
the camera to try to prevent this, but it's another part of the
equation.
--
Brian Davis
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