Raise initial seed funds for hackerspace from the community itself?

[JasonOng]

Hi guys

From a fruitful discussion yesterday over the course of supper, Paul
Gallagher (@tardate) suggested raising seed capital from the hackers
themselves in the form of a free will pledge. Ideally this pledge
would raise enough money so we can:

a) Go set up hackerspace. Securing venue, tools, etc.

b) Bring actual evidence to the negotiation table with the government.
We can make a better case of government sponsorship by letting them
see the hunger in the community.

So we might put in place a budget of a few thousand dollars and if the
amount raised can reach the allocated then we can proceed to the next
stage. Else we cancel the pledges and the money gets transfered back
the donors.

I noticed some github users placed a pledgie stickers to accept
donations for their projects. Is anyone familiar with it? What are the
pledging applications available out there?

http://pledgie.com/

[Andy Croll]

I'm in for that. Happy to lay down some dollars.

Andy

[Ruiwen Chua]

Any objections to using Pledgie? I'm in the process of setting an account up for HackerspaceSG

2009/9/3 Andy Croll <andy...@deepcalm.com>

[Jason Ong]

No objections if they support transactional rollbacks ;)

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Cheers,
JasonOng

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[Ruiwen Chua]

Hm I don't see anything like that mentioned on their site though.. have mailed them to ask.

Does anyone else on the list know if they do that?

2009/9/3 Jason Ong <velv...@gmail.com>

[Paul Gallagher]

Hi Jason,

I was thinking of  (read: trying to remember) kickstarter

It has the model I think would work best for all concerned: They're pledges because money is collected only if a project reaches or exceeds its funding goal before time expires.

Having committed pledges will give the organisers the security that the support is real (not just loose talk), and can go and negotiate leases, funding etc with some confidence. And donors know their money is not blown if the thing never takes off.

NB: I have investigated costs and compared to pledgie in detail.

Regards,
Paul

[Paul Gallagher]

Hmm, potential issue with kickstarter: "Due to current Amazon Payments policy, projects can only be started by people or entities with a U.S. address and bank account."

It's the top voted uservoice  suggestion, but unless there's someone in the group with a US connection, might have to consider replicating the idea ourselves.

Paul

[Ruiwen Chua]

Yup, I just saw that clause too. And that starting projects is apparently by invitation only now.

2009/9/3 Paul Gallagher <gallagh...@gmail.com>

[Jason Ong]

If all else fails, we could do it the low tech way; set up a pledge drive meetup and record down pledges and actual donations?

[Ruiwen Chua]

Or perhaps use Pledgie and implement the refunds manually if need be?

2009/9/3 Jason Ong <velv...@gmail.com>

[Paul Gallagher]

Ruiwen, Jason - yes, agree. gotta keep that startup mentality: any how can!

btw "NB: I have investigated costs and compared to pledgie in detail." - I meant "..NOT investigated..." ;-)

[Ruiwen Chua]

Righto.. I'll set up a PayPal account for this then? Won't use my existing account, just to keep things separate.

2009/9/3 Paul Gallagher <gallagh...@gmail.com>

[Jason Ong]

Ok if we're able to manually issue refunds then I guess we can proceed with pledgie. :)

[Jason Ong]

Thanks ruiwen!

[Ruiwen Chua]

Just to be sure, I'm assuming here that "manual refunds" means initiating Paypal transfers back to each pledge?

So that will incur some cost overhead with Paypal IIRC?

2009/9/3 Jason Ong <velv...@gmail.com>

[Jason Ong]

Maybe for small donations we can use pledgie whilst big ones we collect manually?

[Ruiwen Chua]

Or you know, perhaps you're right, low tech is the way to go.  How about the iBank-then-pass-me-the-transaction-number route. That would probably be better for the sake of simplicity and consolidation.

On a fresh bank account I suppose?

2009/9/3 Jason Ong <velv...@gmail.com>

[Jason Ong]

Yeah. Just appoint a treasurer then. :)

[Kheng Hui Yeo]

Why not get FOSA in on the idea? :P Not quite the same, but I'm sure
many people there could find some use for a hackerspace too.

KH (thinking out loud)

[Leong Hean Hong]

I agree with this. I think Pledgie should be fine, since it works with
paypal. Just KISS.

On Sep 3, 1:10 pm, Jason Ong <velve...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe for small donations we can use pledgie whilst big ones we collect
> manually?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Ruiwen Chua <rwc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Just to be sure, I'm assuming here that "manual refunds" means initiating
> > Paypal transfers back to each pledge?
>
> > So that will incur some cost overhead with Paypal IIRC?
>

> > 2009/9/3 Jason Ong <velve...@gmail.com>

>
> >> Ok if we're able to manually issue refunds then I guess we can proceed
> >> with pledgie. :)
>

> >> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Paul Gallagher <gallagher.p...@gmail.com

> >> > wrote:
>
> >>> Ruiwen, Jason - yes, agree. gotta keep that startup mentality: any how
> >>> can!
>
> >>> btw "NB: I have investigated costs and compared to pledgie in detail." -
> >>> I meant "..NOT investigated..." ;-)
>
> >>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Ruiwen Chua <rwc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> Or perhaps use Pledgie and implement the refunds manually if need be?
>

> >>>> 2009/9/3 Jason Ong <velve...@gmail.com>

>
> >>>> If all else fails, we could do it the low tech way; set up a pledge
> >>>>> drive meetup and record down pledges and actual donations?
>
> >>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Ruiwen Chua <rwc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> Yup, I just saw that clause too. And that starting projects is
> >>>>>> apparently by invitation only now.
>

> >>>>>> 2009/9/3 Paul Gallagher <gallagher.p...@gmail.com>

>
> >>>>>> Hmm, potential issue with kickstarter: "Due to current Amazon Payments
> >>>>>>> policy, projects can only be started by people or entities with a U.S.
> >>>>>>> address and bank account."
>
> >>>>>>> It's the top voted uservoice

> >>>>>>> <https://kickstarter.uservoice.com/pages/10955-general/suggestions/186...>suggestion,

> >>>>>>> but unless there's someone in the group with a US connection, might have to
> >>>>>>> consider replicating the idea ourselves.
>
> >>>>>>> Paul
>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Paul Gallagher <
> >>>>>>> gallagher.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>> Hi Jason,
>

> >>>>>>>> I was thinking of  (read: trying to remember) kickstarter<http://www.kickstarter.com/%20>

>
> >>>>>>>> It has the model I think would work best for all concerned: They're
> >>>>>>>> pledges because money is collected only if a project reaches or exceeds its
> >>>>>>>> funding goal before time expires.
>
> >>>>>>>> Having committed pledges will give the organisers the security that
> >>>>>>>> the support is real (not just loose talk), and can go and negotiate leases,
> >>>>>>>> funding etc with some confidence. And donors know their money is not blown
> >>>>>>>> if the thing never takes off.
>
> >>>>>>>> NB: I have investigated costs and compared to pledgie in detail.
>
> >>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>> Paul
>

> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Jason Ong <velve...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>> No objections if they support transactional rollbacks ;)
>
> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Ruiwen Chua <rwc...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Any objections to using Pledgie? I'm in the process of setting an
> >>>>>>>>>> account up for HackerspaceSG
>

> >>>>>>>>>> 2009/9/3 Andy Croll <andycr...@deepcalm.com>

[Ruiwen Chua]

Good news.. just looked through Paypal (SG?)'s policies, and it looks like there are no fees for personal Paypal transfers within the same country, if the amount is funded from the sender's account and is backed by a bank account and there is no currency conversion. [1]

There is also no fee for the withdrawal of funds to a bank account if the quantum is over $200. [2]

[1]: https://www.paypal.com/sg/cgi-bin/?cmd=_display-fees-outside
[2]: https://www.paypal.com/sg/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_display-withdrawal-fees

So it looks like we can use Pledgie after all.

I'll set up the flow tonight and update again.

2009/9/3 Leong Hean Hong <exper...@gmail.com>

[Jason Ong]

Awesome. Thanks Ruiwen!

[Ruiwen Chua]

Hi all,

I've set up the Paypal + Pledgie account for HackerspaceSG.

To check out the details (basically this thread, summarised) and the flow for pledging, there's a page on the wiki at: http://hackerspacesg.pbworks.com/HowToPledge

Hope that works out =)

2009/9/3 Jason Ong <velv...@gmail.com>

[Jason Ong]

Solid! Thanks Ruiwen! :)

Btw Andy Croll is interested in helping to look for a venue. I'll hook you guys up thru gmail? 

Regards,

Jason Ong

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[Justin Lee]

Yes please. I'm finding out the cost to set up an ezlink access control system, and I'm also going to give Spring a call to see what we can do on that side.

Regards,
Justin Lee
Consultant, Microsoft MVP (Visual Developer C#)

2009/9/4 Jason Ong <velv...@gmail.com>

[Paul Gallagher]

Ruiwen - man of action!

you've set a target of $15k, but it would be good to also put a timeframe on the fund-raising. Doesn't need to be extreme, but something to persuade people into action sooner rather than later; that we're serious about this, and working to a plan.

I'd suggest, say: aim to raise $15k within 2 months/31-Oct. Come 1-Nov, if the target has not been reached, the fundraising efforts will be reviewed (and the community polled and invited to comment) to decide: if enough has been raised to proceed to execute anyway (maybe with modified plans); to re-commit to another round of fund-raising; or to fold at that point.

What do you think?

Paul

[Justin Lee]

We're planning to apply for the YES! Spring grant that will multiply that number by 4 up to a maximum of 50k. Which essentially brings us to 50k + 15k = 65k.

I've called Spring Singapore and they said they can't help us look for a venue or provide a free venue. Which means we have to count on ourselves to either find a venue or rent one.

However we can set up a company to get the YES! grant. I'm going to look into it.

Regards,
Justin Lee
Consultant, Microsoft MVP (Visual Developer C#)

2009/9/4 Paul Gallagher <gallagh...@gmail.com>

[Jason Ong]

That'll be nice for starters. Thanks Justin!

Regards,

Jason Ong

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[Ruiwen Chua]

Actually yeah.. there is an initial timeframe set in Pledgie for Jan 2010 =)

In fact, the original target set was 50k, but I scaled it down to be
more manageable. But otherwise, yeah, reviewing the milestones
periodically is good.

PS
The first funds are in courtesy of Paul! Thanks!

2009/9/4, Paul Gallagher <gallagh...@gmail.com>:

> Ruiwen - man of action!
>
> you've set a target of $15k, but it would be good to also put a timeframe on
> the fund-raising. Doesn't need to be extreme, but something to persuade
> people into action sooner rather than later; that we're serious about this,
> and working to a plan.
>
> I'd suggest, say: aim to raise $15k within 2 months/31-Oct. Come 1-Nov, if
> the target has not been reached, the fundraising efforts will be reviewed
> (and the community polled and invited to comment) to decide: if enough has
> been raised to proceed to execute anyway (maybe with modified plans); to
> re-commit to another round of fund-raising; or to fold at that point.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Paul
>
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Jason Ong <velv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Solid! Thanks Ruiwen! :)
>>
>> Btw Andy Croll is interested in helping to look for a venue. I'll hook you
>> guys up thru gmail?
>>

>> Regards,Jason Ong

>>
>> --
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 04-Sep-2009, at 11:26 AM, Ruiwen Chua <rwc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've set up the Paypal + Pledgie account for HackerspaceSG.
>>
>> To check out the details (basically this thread, summarised) and the flow
>> for pledging, there's a page on the wiki at:
>> <http://hackerspacesg.pbworks.com/HowToPledge>
>> http://hackerspacesg.pbworks.com/HowToPledge
>>
>> Hope that works out =)
>>

>> 2009/9/3 Jason Ong < <velv...@gmail.com>velv...@gmail.com>

>>
>>> Awesome. Thanks Ruiwen!
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Ruiwen Chua < <rwc...@gmail.com>
>>> rwc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Good news.. just looked through Paypal (SG?)'s policies, and it looks
>>>> like there are no fees for personal Paypal transfers within the same
>>>> country, if the amount is funded from the sender's account and is backed
>>>> by
>>>> a bank account and there is no currency conversion. [1]
>>>>
>>>> There is also no fee for the withdrawal of funds to a bank account if
>>>> the
>>>> quantum is over $200. [2]
>>>>
>>>> [1]: <https://www.paypal.com/sg/cgi-bin/?cmd=_display-fees-outside>
>>>> https://www.paypal.com/sg/cgi-bin/?cmd=_display-fees-outside
>>>> [2]:
>>>> <https://www.paypal.com/sg/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_display-withdrawal-fees>
>>>> https://www.paypal.com/sg/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_display-withdrawal-fees
>>>>
>>>> So it looks like we can use Pledgie after all.
>>>>
>>>> I'll set up the flow tonight and update again.
>>>>

>>>> 2009/9/3 Leong Hean Hong < <exper...@gmail.com>exper...@gmail.com>

>>>>> https://kickstarter.uservoice.com/pages/10955-general/suggestions/186

>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > <http://pledgie.com/>http://pledgie.com/

[Paul Gallagher]

Ruiwen, still, I think you should pick a timeframe and put it on the http://hackerspacesg.pbworks.com/HowToPledge (not necessarily what's configured in pledgie - I think an intial 2 month fund raising drive would help focus attention;-)

Pledge: I hope more follow soon;-) ... but I noticed the pledgie "we've raised X" status doesn't update in realtime. hmm

Paul

[Ruiwen Chua]

Oh I misunderstood.. yes absolutely.. we should have it on the wiki
page. Will update it.

2009/9/4, Paul Gallagher <gallagh...@gmail.com>:

[Ruiwen Chua]

Hi all,

We've realised that Pledgie is entering the pledges as "Payments for services" instead of a personal fund transfer. 

Importantly, Payments are subject to a tax while personal fund transfers are not.

So, while we try to get around this, please do not pledge through Pledgie until we solve this.

Thanks for your understanding!

2009/9/4 Ruiwen Chua <rwc...@gmail.com>

[Jason Ong]

Hey Ruiwen

Is it possible then to set up personal transfers directly in Paypal? That way don't need to have Pledgie as middleman. The paypal recipient can help keep track and update amount collected and update the wiki :)

[Ruiwen Chua]

That's absolutely possible and doable. Pledgie is handy now just for
the alerts and fancy badge. But yes, personal transfers should still
work and I can keep track of the donors and amounts, no problem. I was
just hoping to be able to verify the process on my own first.

2009/9/4, Jason Ong <velv...@gmail.com>:

[Ruiwen Chua]

Hi all,

Have tried it out, and it really does look like personal transfers do not incur an additional fee, so shall we bypass Pledgie and do everything straight within Paypal for now?

For those generous few who have pledged, the pledge amounts have been fully refunded, so no worries, I hope =)

Cheers

Ruiwen

2009/9/4 Ruiwen Chua <rwc...@gmail.com>

[Paul Gallagher]

Hi Ruiwen,

Sounds like you're throwing a dev challenge out there: anyone with spare time for a quick weekend project to whip up a front end to the pledge drive: make sure to collect the registration details and then route payment thru paypal.

anyone?

Asking people to go through the multiple manual steps of a personal payment ... doesn't look good on hackerspace idea if we can't even hack that! ("brand incongruence" as Justin would probably say;-)

[Murphy Tok]

Never use a personal account for donation collection unless it's ment
for that specific person.

Suggest to ask if LUGS would collect and hold on behalf the donations to
this project.

With proper terms and authorization signed with LUGS, it'll be no issue
at all.

Simple and straight forward.

Best regards,
Murf.

[Ruiwen Chua]

Good point Murphy, and yes, the Paypal account used here for collection was created specifically for this purpose. =)

2009/9/5 Murphy Tok <murph...@gmail.com>

[Jason Ong]

I think Murphys got point in that people might not be willing to do
transfers to someone that they don't know personally. Paul & myself's
got no issue since we've meet Ruiwen And gang a few times before.
Think we need to organize a pledge drive so interested pledgers can
meet each other plus the unofficial committee handlind the pledges.

I oppose to using LUGS to handle the pledges, judging from the
formality of the last AGM. We need something more agile. If need be,
hackerspacesg will be registered as a business entity. Point is to
reduce external orgs dependencies. Much like why we don't wanna depend
on Yahoo, Microsoft, SMU, NUS, to make this happen.

Regards,
Jason Ong

--
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[Murphy Tok]

Never use a personal account for donation collection unless it's meant for that specific person.

Purpose of account creation and ownership of account is two total separate issues here.



What I'm trying to do here is very simple, am trying to tone you guys down a little bit, to do a bit more research and planning before actually kick starting HSSG.

Let's get down to the very basic, before starting any project, first try to understand it a bit more, culture, history, requirement, risks, etc... then research into the possibility of actually running it closest to the most accurate  situations possible, then plan the execution, and prepare for screw ups, and to make sure that someone qualified is there overseeing the process.

HS was staring at your face all along (lab, garage, cafe, etc..), only until recent few years that someone decides to name it.

Having a well furnished and equipped venue doesn't automatically make it a HS no matter what name it goes by.

And if all the HS event it's gonna hold is s/w development or system integrations, you wouldn't need a permanent venue for that.

What are your requirements here?

1. Group of people interested enough, and willing to contribute and participate in the activities.
2. Group of people interested enough, willing and able to manage, maintain, operate the activities.
3. Source of funding amount to a projected cost of operation.
4. Venue of operation, preferably available 24/7.
5. Equipments suitable for required activities.
6. Group of people interested enough, willing and able to mentor, guide or assist participants when needed.
7. And the list goes on....

All in all, as the organizer, you should prepare and publish a detail ideas and plans of what you intend to achieve within whatever time period....

Gather the groups of personnel you'll need, pitch the idea and operation plan, then listens for suggestion, no doubt there will be some useful, and some suitable only to be discarded.

Before any round of fund raising, research into the required expenses, cost of operations, and projected short-mid-long term of expenditures.

And ensure that you are able to accept and receive the funds when it arrives.

Have a figure in your mind, and if too huge, break it down to several different round of fund raising.

Fund raising without knowing how much you'll need is like attempt to fill a well with pebbles, you'll never know how much it's gonna take or to be enough around you. (signs of a highly possible project failure in very near future)

Of course there are more issues and requirements in and all around, but I couldn't possibly list them all here.

Start small, pitch the idea, prove that the organizing members are able and capable to manage, market it out to reach as many as possible, and when time is right with all informations in hand, start the first round of fund raising.

I understand the cathedral and bazaar here, but despite the many possible ways to getting things done, there is and always will be only one correct way to do it.

[Jason Ong]

Hey Murphy

I understand and agree with your concerns. Many valid points. One way only? Not sure about that. Have a singular goal? Yes.

You may have an impression that this whole thing's bring pushed by some script kiddies trying to get a hangout place of their own and I would like to address that by saying that Ruiwen and Justin are really serious about making hackerspacesg a self sustaining viable business for hackers to enjoy. They still need help/advice from many others, including yourself to get this going. I'll would like people of great experiences to volunteer their time to meet up with them to have a good chat. 

The pledging strategy is an attempt to gauge community's seriousness. If it fails, we'll probably try another route. 

"Winners are not those who never fails but those who never quits"    

Regards,

Jason Ong

--

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[Paul Gallagher]

more discussion and debate of what hackerspacesg is/should be is clearly needed, and I think exactly what the initial instigators were inviting and wanted to provoke.

I, too, have concerns about getting too quickly focused exclusively on fundraising and grand plans. Like startups that order 150 Aero chairs before they've even figured out what their product/business model is;-)
[btw, that's why it is a "pledge" not a straight donation or membership fee]

However, there's a lot to be said for building up momentum in gradual steps, even while you are not sure what the final destination is.

An idea I'd propose for discussion as a possible "baby step", actually building on earlier comments in this thread from Murphy and others, the success of the recent geekcampsg, and the huge interest in robotics that seemed evident:

"hackerspacesg" should take as an initial goal the organising  the organising of a weekend maker camp (in conjunction with geekcampsg). I'd suggest:

• hacking with Arduino
• make it somewhat competitive: winning teams (sponsored prizes or at least kudos) for most creative, useful, ubergeeky etc
• a place for learners to learn and also those who want to take the comp more seriously
  
• but an experiment in free, open collaboration, learning and sharing
• ... and there are many more ideas we can get into if this sounds like a profitable approach
  

That hackerspacesg agenda would of course to use this as a litmus test for community interest. And also put runs on the board. And, importantly, buy time for more discussion: storming, norming and forming around what "hackerspacesg" is really all about...

[Jason Ong]

nicely said. I'll second to your suggestions. Thanks for making it clear and concise. :)

Regards,

Jason Ong

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[Ruiwen Chua]

Hi Murphy, Jason, Paul, and everyone who has given us comments,

First off, it's really heartening to see the level of enthusiasm on the mailing list regarding the Hackerspace, do keep them coming! After all, it's only with debate that concepts get hammered out and concretised. In fact, for a project that was more or less set in motion on Wednesday, I think we're making good progress =)

So perhaps to dispel some uncertainties, I should probably clarify that we are certainly exploring all ways possible to make this a sustainable business, including the distinct possibility of running it full-time. As such, we aren't going to say "Oh, this Hackerspace is a really great idea! Let's just set it up and see what happens. If it fails, oh well." =)

We really are considering all avenues of funding and revenue generation in order to make the Hackerspace sustainable. In the past two days, we've contacted IE Singapore and SPRING to sound them out on the possibility of partnering or funding the project. (Next stop, iDA and MDA) So far, the general response has been, "We can't promise you anything with just a rough concept. Come back when you've worked out a more detailed plan.", as such, a more detailed plan is what we will try craft, and then present to both the community here (we'll put it on the wiki for discussion), as well as potential investors/partners.

With regards to pledging money, as Paul rightly points out, these contributions are but pledges at this point in time. Should the project fail to take off, all the contributions will be refunded.

Starting small is definitely the way to go. The Hackerspace is a large project, and we definitely need help in crafting it into the project that Singapore needs to nurture the hacker community.

So yes, please keep the comments coming and let us know if you feel something could be done better. =)

Cheers
Ruiwen

[Jason Ong]

Nicely said. Hooray for 3 day efforts! :)

Regards,

Jason Ong

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