Member benefits

[Luke Hill]

Hey folks,

So, I've never liked prestige. Even being MC 10, I'm not sure there's not a better way to do MC. How open are we to revising those things, within the limits of organizational consistency? What I've been playing around with lately is this:

Instead of one kind of reward for doing stuff to help the club, you give one of a set of three. One reward is given for activities which immediately benefit the club - cleaning game site, donating food, helping a new member with a sheet - and it should immediately benefit the person receiving it. One reward is for sacrificing some of your play time for the club, such as by being a narrator or volunteering at a convention. That reward compensates you for your time and rewards you at the same time, with a reward that is valuable in and of itself not just as points you devote to something else to get xp later on. The third is rewarded for long-term investments, and provides a long-term/perpetual benefit (this is where MC comes in).

The reason for three rewards is, well, threefold. One, there is realistically no way to balance the benefit of being an ST with that of cleaning game site or donating soda. If we try, one will seem to be undervalued and/or the other overvalued. So reward those two different things in two different, non-comparable ways. Two, immediate rewards encourage people to do the things that get the reward better than long-term reward do, even if the delayed rewards are of greater magnitude. Three, it indexes MC to being an officer, to something tangible and long-term, which Jessi mentioned as something she'd like to investigate.

Is this something you'd like me to work on some more?

Luke

[Amanda Spikol]

Luke,

I'd LOVE to see MC reworked so it was cool and not such a point of
argument and contention as it was before. The only question I have is,
will us reworking that cause strife with other affiliates that still
use it? If not, I think it's a great idea.

- Amanda S.
GWB2007029463

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Games Without Borders - Membership Handbook Review" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to gwb-mh-revie...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send an email to gwb-mh...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/gwb-mh-review?hl=en-GB.
>
>



--
- Amanda Spikol

[Luke Hill]

Amanda,

The only question I have is, will us reworking that cause strife with other affiliates that still use it? If not, I think it's a great idea.

I assume that if we keep the levels basically the same, there will be some parity, but that's I was asking too - at least, asking what my limits are before I get started and if it's worth doing.

Luke

[Luke Parsons]

I'd LOVE to see MC reworked so it was cool and not such a point of
argument and contention as it was before. The only question I have is,
will us reworking that cause strife with other affiliates that still
use it? If not, I think it's a great idea.

If we keep a similar scale, it shouldn't matter how it gets awarded.

I like what I'm seeing, but the big question for me is... how does this apply retroactively?

--
Luke Parsons

GWB1998090219 / WW1998090219

[Amanda Spikol]

I think we have two options: start everything from scratch at reset
(probably won't be popular) or come up with a reverse scheme, which
will be effort, but probably more popular.

It'd take a lot of looking at, for example, when I first joined, I
banged out a lot of Ordeals, but left and came back at MC1, then
couldn't retake the Ordeals on the CRD...should I be allowed to apply
for prestige compensation for them, even if they're from back in
2007/2008? It gets even more complicated with people who've been
around the life of the club...but I think it's worth it to iron out
all the kinks once and for all.

- Amanda S.
GWB2007029463

[Kelley McMahan]

I love the proposal and look forward to seeing specifics. This is a
great idea really.

Kelley McMahan
GWB2007060149

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Amanda Spikol <amanda...@gmail.com> wrote:

[christopher buser]

I believe that the other 3 affiliates chose to leave mc/prestige as-is so compatibility was a factor. Can't check archives at work though.

[Luke Hill]

Luke,

I like what I'm seeing, but the big question for me is... how does this apply retroactively?

Well, we were all awarded an MC upon joining. Either that can change or stay the same, but simply say that any future earnings must be done under whatever system is created now and not what came before. Or have some kind of measurable standard upon which to judge past prestige earnings, but I honestly think that's more work than it's worth.

Honestly, if I had my way completely, I'd say that past MC is halved, rounding down. So 2 becomes 1, 10 becomes 5, 15 becomes 7 (I'm MC 10, for reference and to state my bias). Then say that one can earn up to MC 15 again, but it must be earned under whatever system is created. That way people aren't penalized too badly for something they didn't know about. That also addresses somewhat of a problematic glut at the top of the MC scale.

But I accept there could be downsides to that. There might be better ways to do it. I'll work up the plan later so y'all can read. :)

Luke

--

[Jessi Sauter]

On the Coord side, we accepted transferred MC when people joined the
club and happened to have some. True, there was an understanding that
we would be coming out with our own handbook and our own way of doing
things that would take precedence in time, but I think we have made a
commitment to the incoming players who came in with MC that we do need
to honor.

That's why I thought potentially extending the MC scale with some less
tangible/more long term oriented requirements might be appealing. In
my opinion (and this may not be everyone's) we have given our word to
honor that MC and we are bound by that (others' mileage may vary). We
do, however, have the option to offer them more and different things
on top of MC if we wanted to do that, without going back on what we
said we'd do.

I think Luke H kind of hit the nail on the head with the comparison
between bringing soda and STing. One of the things that pissed me off
the most about the MC system was that I would get 40 National, on
average, every month when I was AMST for both Ascension and Awakening
(and for several months, both at the same time, but I was capped to 40
anyways because the MST wanted to be "conservative" about prestige).
It was easily a second full time job, with equivalent amounts of
stress (and, no doubt, a lot of joy, too- I'm not denying that, you
don't stay in a job like that for the prestige).

But if you didn't need National- and I didn't- you could earn the same
40 prestige cleaning up game sites and bringing soda. And nobody
would yell at you, you wouldn't have to herd cats, the chronicle did
not depend on you and nobody ever sent you a death threat over it.
That was not nearly as frustrating as some of the things that came
with the job, but there were times when I'd be up for review and
getting nitpicked that it was easily the frustration cherry on top of
the bullshit sundae. To me, the prestige I earned as an ST was not
the same as the prestige somebody else earned for bringing soda, no
matter what the math came out to be. A hell of a lot more had gone
into that.

I want to see a prestige system that gives higher rewards for higher
stress. Something that values people more than stuff, and rewards
blood, sweat and tears at a higher level than it does staying a little
late or throwing an extra thing of soda in the grocery cart. Let's
see a prestige system that's less concerned about making everybody
feel good about their smallest contributions, and more concerned with
making the things that we value most pay best and making the rewards
reflect our values as an organization.

Jessi

--
Jessi Sauter
GWB2002023219

[Amanda Spikol]

- Amanda Spikol

[Amanda Spikol]

Damnit, hit send... I MEANT:

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Jessi Sauter <mier...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> I want to see a prestige system that gives higher rewards for higher
> stress. Something that values people more than stuff, and rewards
> blood, sweat and tears at a higher level than it does staying a little
> late or throwing an extra thing of soda in the grocery cart. Let's
> see a prestige system that's less concerned about making everybody
> feel good about their smallest contributions, and more concerned with
> making the things that we value most pay best and making the rewards
> reflect our values as an organization.

How about, if you serve as an officer (coord or ST), that's its own
category of prestige, rather than falling under General, Regional,
National, Global? In fact...how about General for general stuff...like
site cleaning, bringing snacks, offering a ride or game site, charity,
etc., Officer for serving as a coord or ST, and maybe one other that
emphasizes something that we want to encourage.

That way, like the old G/R/N requirements for MC levels, you'd have to
widen your service to attain the higher levels. Maybe...MC 10 has a
requirement of 100 Officer prestige? (that's just an off-the-cuff
example).

- Amanda S.
GWB2007029463

[Kelley McMahan]

Not a bad idea really, I would like to add one more suggestion. At
advanced MC (10 and higher) Mentorship of less experienced members is
a requirement to attain and maintain MC level. I see stewardship and
growing the next generation of coordinators, ST's and Con staff is
vital to growth and good health of any gaming group IMO.

Kelley McMahan
GWB2007060149

[Luke Parsons]

Not a bad idea really, I would like to add one more suggestion. At
advanced MC (10 and higher) Mentorship of less experienced members is
a requirement to attain and maintain MC level. I see stewardship and
growing the next generation of coordinators, ST's and Con staff is
vital to growth and good health of any gaming group IMO.

I would want to see this overlap with any potential officer category.  An officer does this sort of thing constantly, but would not necessarily be eligible for higher MC under such a system if the were not considered interchangeable categories.

[Luke Hill]

Jessi,

On the Coord side, we accepted transferred MC when people joined the club and happened to have some.  True, there was an understanding that we would be coming out with our own handbook and our own way of doing things that would take precedence in time, but I think we have made a commitment to the incoming players who came in with MC that we do need to honor.

That's why I thought potentially extending the MC scale with some less tangible/more long term oriented requirements might be appealing.  In my opinion (and this may not be everyone's) we have given our word to honor that MC and we are bound by that (others' mileage may vary).  We do, however, have the option to offer them more and different things on top of MC if we wanted to do that, without going back on what we said we'd do.

Okay, I dig it. I can begin by tuning the system to accommodate existing MC as-is, but add to the high end of the curve. I think maybe having 30 MCs (or however many we do, I'm just assuming 15*2) is a bit ridiculous, but I accept that not giving people their full MC is also problematic.

Do we want to differentially reward or recognize carried past MC versus earned-in-GWB MC? I see benefits and problems to both, honestly, but I want to get a read on things before I make an assumption (that being no, right now) and end up being wrong.

Luke

[Jessi Sauter]

> Okay, I dig it. I can begin by tuning the system to accommodate existing MC
> as-is, but add to the high end of the curve. I think maybe having 30 MCs (or
> however many we do, I'm just assuming 15*2) is a bit ridiculous, but I
> accept that not giving people their full MC is also problematic.

Yeah, 30 is too much. But maybe some kind of side awards, even if
they don't have anything to do with what your base MC is? Kind of
like achievements in video games maybe. It's not the main storyline,
but if you do something spiffy, you get a little shiny icon or
something. Same principle, if people hit certain shiny little
contributions, they get some kind of nifty reward (with some
limitations on the number of times that same reward can happen).

> Do we want to differentially reward or recognize carried past MC versus
> earned-in-GWB MC? I see benefits and problems to both, honestly, but I want
> to get a read on things before I make an assumption (that being no, right
> now) and end up being wrong.

That one's going to have to be a Liam call. Personally, I could argue
it from either side six ways from Sunday, though my gut instinct is to
avoid anything that makes our members feel like we just pulled the rug
out from under them.

Jessi

[Luke Hill]

Jessi,

But maybe some kind of side awards, even if they don't have anything to do with what your base MC is?

Well, MC is itself like an achievement, in a way, but I take your analogy. I mean, it's assumed that MC means xp, but that assumption is only true because the addendum makes it so. It's nowhere in any member handbook. The same is true of MC being tied to Generation.

But, to be clear, do you mean reward *new* MC with an incidental benefit, but carried MC with the principal whatever, whether that's xp (which it probably will be) or otherwise? I wasn't sure if you meant that, or the opposite. I confess to having a certain bias toward new MC versus carried MC, since we can tie that to something other than donating cans (or whatever), but I know that many people in the GWB have high carried MC and worked hard to earn it, so I accept that either could be your intent.

Luke

[Jessi Sauter]

I was thinking more like if you meet the goal of the achievement- VST
for one year with GWB, voted best RP after three games in a quarter,
brought soda for everybody all month, some kind of costuming reward,
whatever, we can brainstorm a list at some point- then you can have a
one time shiny perk (small prestige lump sum, an officer buys you a
beverage if you play in a place that sells them, maybe an XP or two if
we can talk the STs into it, insert shiny of preference here).

They'd all be GWB only (no previous achievements) and it doesn't
matter what your MC is. If you come in as a 14 or 15 and you're
interested in earning, say, the costuming perk just because you'd like
to, there's nothing wrong with that.

Jessi

[David Sauter]

... achievements...

 

You know there's something to be said for Achievements as a concept.  I'll give this some thought while I'm waiting on a compile (we aren't allowed swords in here).

 

David Sauter

GWB199908146

[christopher buser]

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:56 PM, David Sauter <del...@gmail.com> wrote:

... achievements...

 

You know there's something to be said for Achievements as a concept.  I'll give this some thought while I'm waiting on a compile (we aren't allowed swords in here).

Relevant:  http://xkcd.com/303/

--
Buser

[Luke Hill]

David,

You know there's something to be said for Achievements as a concept.  I'll give this some thought while I'm waiting on a compile (we aren't allowed swords in here).

Yeah, for all that some people loathe the concept, it's one of the better random ideas to come out of WoW. It's possibly very relevant in a club like the GWB, where the focus is supposed to be on player-driven goals and the player-mediated experience, and on encouraging choices that are good for both the individual, group and club as a whole.

If you've got ideas on how to turn this into an intermediate reward system, I'm all ears. It's a nice general idea, but I don't have the mental bandwidth at the moment to put it into practice (I'm tuning two GC-MS's right now, m'self).

Luke

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:56 PM, David Sauter <del...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Jessi Sauter]

> (I'm tuning two GC-MS's
> right now, m'self).
>

Hopefully they let you have swords. Sometimes threatening the
machinery does occasionally get you somewhere.

Jessi

--
Jessi Sauter
GWB2002023219

[Luke Hill]

Hey guys,

Here's my first, rough draft of member benefits. It uses both Prestige and MC, but does it in a very different way. Note that Prestige does not ever earn one MC; the two are completely separate. MC is a perpetual benefit you earn over months and years; Prestige is a transitory benefit you spend within a single month. Also, note that the list for Prestige isn't exclusive; it only includes the handful of things that immediately leapt to my mind. I assume the list will get significantly longer when I start folding in most prestige-worthy things.

Member Benefits:

MC:

MC runs from 0 to 15. 

Earn +1 MC for…

· Being elected for the first time to a local Storyteller or Coordinator position

o Note: This is revoked if you are removed from office by a disciplinary action, or serve less than 3 months before stepping down.

· Being elected for the first time to a National or Global Storyteller or Coordinator position

· Running (that is, being a Lead for) a national or international convention (earned a max of 3 times)

· Each 6-18 months you serve as a Storyteller or Coordinator

o If you are currently MC 1-5, earn +1 MC every 6 months

o If you are currently MC 6-10, earn +1 MC every 12 months / 1 year

o If you are currently MC 11-14, earn +1 MC every 18 months

Carried MC: You may keep member class previously earned in MES. This member class is used to determine what benefits you get, but in all other ways you are MC 0 upon joining. Upon joining, you begin to earn MC as normal. Until your earned MC overtakes your carried MC, you use your carried MC to determine what benefits you get.

Example: Sally was a member of the MES and was MC 7 when she left. She, upon joining the GWB, gains benefits as though she were MC 7, and continues to gain these benefits until her actual MC (which starts at 0 and is earned according to the above) surpasses 7, at which point she gains those benefits instead.

Notes: I'm not wedded to the 6/12/18 months, and I think there is potentially some benefit to saying that having no National/Global service will only get you so far. I've left that out for now, though, because I figured that if it was really desired then someone would bring it up. I've also waffled from anywhere between 6 months to 1 year on the low end of the scale, and anywhere from 1 year to 3 years on the high end. I'm not really sold on any of them, but anything outside of that range seems a little silly.

Prestige:

Prestige is earned for doing things considered helpful and of immediate positive benefit to the game/club. The prestige is awarded by the presiding storyteller or coordinator, or any other elected officer if not at a game or OOC event. Prestige should be spent rather than saved, as it expires either in 1 month or at the end of the next game you attend, whichever is later. Storytellers must keep a log of prestige awards and expenditures, and note such in their monthly reports.

Prestige may be spent for any of the following, with storyteller approval:

· A retest on a feeding challenge or other challenge with a similar purpose

· To gain 1 blood, essence or other form of supernatural energy. Can only be used when not in active play, but can be used after the start of a given game.

· To retest a dramatic failure. This use can never occur in challenges either directly or indirectly against other players.

· Can be turned in for a game’s worth of xp on one PC. This is bound by whatever caps and restrictions normally apply to xp earnings, and must be registered with the ST presiding over that character. This use costs 5 (2? 3?) Prestige.

· Any other uses/purchases that are delineated in the VSS of the game you are attending, if those are not specifically modified or forbidden by any other applicable rules.

Overcap events:

When volunteering time at events that grant overcap xp, such as by narrating or by staffing security/hospitality, a player may claim full overcap xp on all of his/her characters that are registered for the event, in addition to any regular xp earned via Prestige.

Suggested Prestige amounts:

· 1 for bringing soda or cleaning up the game site

· 1-3 for driving friends to game

. 2-5 for writing a plotkit, depending on length/complexity/quality

. 2-5 for a month's work as an Assistant Storyteller

· 5 for narrating an event in its entirety (or 2 or 3 or whatever gets a game of xp)

So, what do you guys think?

Luke

[David Sauter]

Two things jumped out at me:

1) No mentioning other clubs by name in the MH.  We can use a blanket 'see NC for assistance if joining from another White Wolf Fan Club' or some such language.

2) Spendable prestige is something that I have a knee jerk reaction against.  

David Sauter

GWB199908146

[Luke Hill]

1) Yeah, hence it being rough. This isn't anywhere near final language.

2) True, but knee-jerk reactions aren't always good, certainly not thoughtful. It isn't spendable in the same way as has been proposed before. The spendable portion is less like the Prestige you know, really, as it's in much smaller amounts and is specifically built to not be hoarded. Keeping in mind the Incremental Maximum rule in the present addendum, I'm pretty sure this can't be gamed for game-damaging effect while still being of substantial value. If I'm wrong, though, feel free to prove me so.

[Kelley McMahan]

I see a potential down side to the MC side of this. In that there are
only so many ST and Coordinator jobs to be had. And if/when you find a
good one they tend to get themselves re-elected even if they don't
want it. Wes would be a good example of this. He had to finally
abdicate in order to get a break.
Just my 2 creds.

Kelley McMahan
GWB2007060149

[Amanda Spikol]

I'm not so much a fan of this...and it's mostly because MC and
prestige are separated. The spendable prestige will also be a
nightmare to track: "You spent your prestige for XYZ thing when you
went to Blahblah domain's game last week." "No, I didn't!" "Yes, you
did!" etc.

- Amanda S.
GWB2007019463

[Luke Hill]

Kelley,

Could you clarify this a little bit? I'm not sure what the down side is, especially since Prestige is overall a much more efficient way to get xp than is MC, unless you go to every game and get full xp on all of your characters every month in addition to volunteering in a non-elected manner.

Luke

[Luke Hill]

Amanda,

Is that less of a pain than tracking prestige is now? I had a friend apply for MC 14 a week ago and have to dig up records from 14 years ago in order to prove she deserved it. This Prestige expires after a month, spent or not. If you enter the expenditures on a log and the log gets put in a report, there's a paper trail on if you spent it or not. If you did, and you spend it twice, then you either get it reversed with a warning or receive a disciplinary action for cheating, just as if you'd claimed MC you never earned.

Luke

[Luke Parsons]

Speaking as a Storyteller, I profoundly dislike the idea of Prestige being spent to give immediate in-game rewards in this fashion.  I've been spending a great deal of effort on the oWoD side of things to ensure that rewards are given for setting-appropriate and narrative-positive behaviours, and one of the big methods of doing that is with these sorts of rewards (XP for example, but also in some cases small one-off benefits).  While those efforts may or may not prove effective, using this reward system would undercut them entirely.

Oh, also GWB will not have any such thing as Overcap Events - both nWoD and oWoD will be working from a chronicle-length XP maximum, not a monthly maximum, and as far as I am aware neither side will be permitting any character to exceed that maximum at any time.

[Luke Hill]

*shrugs* Okay, so I guess the system stays largely as-is unless anyone has any ideas on how to substantially change it. I think that sucks, that if we have a system that needs regular auditing and a person - or group of people - whose sole job is to audit it, we have a system that doesn't work... but, alright...

And I'd call narrating a narrative-positive behavior, but I guess I'm in the minority there so I'll defer to the group's opinion. Anyone got any other suggestions, or should I just assume we're keeping things the same?

Luke

--

[Luke Parsons]

And I'd call narrating a narrative-positive behavior, but I guess I'm in the minority there so I'll defer to the group's opinion. Anyone got any other suggestions, or should I just assume we're keeping things the same?

When I speak of narrative-positive behaviour, I'm referring to rewarding players who actively bring other characters in on their plots, or assist in the development of other player's plots.  Narrating could be seen like this, but bringing soda?  Not so much.  It provides an alternate avenue which allows players to disengage from the system intended to reward playing with other people's fun in mind.  I can see what you're going for here, and I like the basic concept, but I don't like that part of the execution, I'm sorry to say.  I'd be interested in exploring other options, but none are coming to mind right at this moment.

Well, one, but it would require a bit of negotiation with Onyx Path, if it were even feasible.  Perhaps we could look at organising something like a group license for their PDFs, using membership fees to pay whatever costs would be involved (in a way similar to how software companies do licensing for single copies or for entire networks of their programs).  We could then allow Prestige to be used as currency to purchase new PDFs of Onyx Path books under the group license.

[Kelley McMahan]

To Luke Hill;

My discomfort in a proposal to award MC based on holding office. in a
domain of 6 that is not hard to do. In a domain of say 50 that is much
harder to make MC. especially if you have someone that is really good
at a given position. A given member may have mad skills for admin but
if there is one already that people are comfortable with said member
may never get the opportunity to earn MC. Does that make better sense?

Kelley McMahan
GWB2007060149

[Amanda Spikol]

I was thinking about this some more on my way to work this morning,
and I have a proposal:

1. Grandfather previously earned MC per the current process.
2. MC levels are 1-15 to remain consistent with other affiliates
(names for levels may change).
3. Prestige is earned in 3 categories: General, Officer, and Club.
4. General prestige should make up about %70 of a member's prestige
and includes most things, such as site hosting, donations, giving
rides to people, charity, and all that 'little' stuff.
5. Officer prestige includes serving as an officer (coord or ST),
officer's assistant (AVST Feeding, etc.), or ST assist (narration at a
game, playing an NPC, etc.) so that way, even if you can't serve as an
officer due to domain size or what-have-you, you can still earn some
Officer prestige.
6. Club prestige is anything that directly benefits the whole of the
club, including serving as an officer or assistant at National level
or higher (you earn it instead of Officer prestige), any kind of work
for a con (venue lead, check-in, narration, etc.), work done on a
club-wide project, such as a newsletter, writing club-wide plotkits,
starting a domain, recruitment above a certain level, etc.

I'm thinking something like this as far as requirements:

MC1-MC7: All General
MC7-MC10: Mostly General, Some Officer (scaling upwards as level increases)
MC10-MC15: General, Officer, Club (scaling upwards as level increases)

Club could be roughly analogous to National back in MES, in that it
could be used in place of Regional (here Officer) if you had it. That
way, if you are a National officer or higher, or don't have
time/circumstance to serve as an officer, but have been helping build
the club, you can use your Club prestige in place of Officer.

Sound workable, or should I have had coffee before thinking about this? :)

- Amanda S.
GWB2007029463