Condensation on Track

[Michael Cooper]

Rui Batista is experimenting with covering the banking with a tarp to solve the condensation problem that limits use of the track in the Fall. So far it is not looking promising.

I recall having a lot of discussion around this issue when we discussed the idea of some kind of a roof for the velodrome. We were told by someone with some expertise that a roof would solve the issue. 

Does anyone remember what we learned about the nature of the problem? Anyone with any expertise in this area?

Thanks very much

Mike Cooper

President, GVVA

[Kurt Innes]

Hi Mike,

 

thanks for re-opening this discussion.

 

this is an excellent opportunity for further discussion and research on the actual riding surface and the options that exist to expand our riding season when condensation/rain conditions are present.   A roof over the track is definitely an option.  

 

Another option,  as We have discussed over the past couple years is to experiment with painting the lines with a more gritty / grippy paint to potentially allow riding while the track is wet .     From recent experimentation – I feel  the actual velodrome surface can be ridden in damp conditions,  when caution is used and modifications to track practise plans are made (no racing, no sprints, only tempo/steady state riding, etc).   There may be consequence with too gritty a paint to the tracks ability to support “ peak performance” due to extra rolling resistance,  but the positive outcome may be that we can ride the track all year round.  This may be worth experimentation.

 

Specifically - Yesterday,  September 12,  presented similar conditions to what has been seen over the past week with turn 3 & 4 affected with condensation.    We, the two coaches present (Kurt and Lister),  made the decision to continue with the practise plan with modifications as above.  We were able to meet all of our practise outcomes and we held practise on the track while turn 3 & 4 were damp.   This was the first time I’ve personally experimented with this option of riding while turn 3 & 4 were wet here in Victoria.  I rode on the track myself,  before recommending we begin practise, and I was pleasantly surprised that the actual surface itself was not “slippery”.   I ensured i was riding fast enough, kept a steady line,  and didnt make sudden changes to direction, etc.  I used caution when entering/exiting the track, rode a fast enough pace,  DID NOT RIDE ON THE PAINTED LINES, nor make sudden turns while on the wet section.    I would suggest further experimentation to determine the viability of riding when the entire track is wet (not just turn 3 & 4).   We may not be able to race, or host first time riding clinics on the track when it’s wet... but we can hopefully make use of the surface / facility if we are able to upgrade the painted lines.

 

Similar wet track policies are in effect on other velodromes.   See here for example wet track policy from Hellier track (GB), and  here for a similar policy from Taranaki velodrome  (NZ).    Basically,  when there is minimal dampness or light rain.. programs can run with intermediate/expert users.   When heavy rain is present, or excess standing water is present... no riding.  

 

I would recommend we engage in further discussion to research this option of re-painting the lines with such a paint to see if this expands our options.

 

Happy to continue the dialogue.

 

Kurt Innes

From: Michael Cooper

Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2015 9:06 AM

To: Gvva-News Gvva-News

Subject: [GVVA-News] Condensation on Track

 

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[Dave Shishkoff]

Hey Mike, everyone,

 

One simple way to test the 'roof' idea - I've watched too much Mythbusters apparently - set a few tents up over a stretch of the far side overnight... I imagine the moisture is condensation from the air, not precipitation, so it won't make any difference (as we've seen already from the tarp experiment), but if you want to 'confirm' the roof idea, this would be one way. I believe the track would have to be entirely enclosed and protected from the nighttime air to prevent the condensation..

 

Great thoughts and experiments by Kurt tho - perhaps in addition to 'gritty' lines, a very thin layer of 'grit' could also be added to the sprinters lane, and perhaps a foot or two above as well... I've heard in Japan they have tracks that they race on rain or shine, so it can be done.. (My own experiments on the wet surface haven't really been so great....yes, you *can* get through upright, but with the nature of riding with others, there will be shifts in pace, and people trying to steer a bit, and lots of potential for pile-ups..so would advise against group riding, but go for armouring up some people and pushing the limits. ;)

 

On the flip-side, will the costs be worth it? Now that the track is shared, will we interfere with other bookings? And how many extra days (or months) will we get from this? (Riding/racing in colder weather has never been the problem at the track, it's when you're not going that's the problem, freezing on the infield!) And will an even more skin-eating surface really be desired? (New 3-layer clothing rule? ;)

 

Just some points to consider, and probably all beyond useful discussion on an email list... (An in-person meeting on the topic might be more productive.)

 

Although all this defeats one of the main points I like track: it's fair-weather racing. =)

 

Happy riding all!

 

- Dave

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Michael Cooper

To: Gvva-News Gvva-News

Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2015 09:06

Subject: [GVVA-News] Condensation on Track

--

[Christopher Anstey]

Hi Mike, Kurt.
An enclosed track would likely stop condensation though as Burnaby found with cold outside and people inside will create dripping from ceiling and some related problems.
There are some interesting products available now such as the TBTF fabric which will allow enough light that the track could be used with no lights in the day and could be lit with the existing lighting. If you want to see one example drive or ride along Wallace Rd just a little east of Brentwood. A horse riding barn is just being finished. Such structure with double roof fabric likely would solve all the issues. Just a few million $.

On Sep 13, 2015 10:55 AM, Kurt Innes <kurt...@telus.net> wrote:

Hi Mike,

 

thanks for re-opening this discussion.

 

this is an excellent opportunity for further discussion and research on the actual riding surface and the options that exist to expand our riding season when condensation/rain conditions are present.   A roof over the track is definitely an option.  

 

Another option,  as We have discussed over the past couple years is to experiment with painting the lines with a more gritty / grippy paint to potentially allow riding while the track is wet .     From recent experimentation – I feel  the actual velodrome surface can be ridden in damp conditions,  when caution is used and modifications to track practise plans are made (no racing, no sprints, only tempo/steady state riding, etc).   There may be consequence with too gritty a paint to the tracks ability to support “ peak performance” due to extra rolling resistance,  but the positive outcome may be that we can ride the track all year round.  This may be worth experimentation.

 

Specifically - Yesterday,  September 12,  presented similar conditions to what has been seen over the past week with turn 3 & 4 affected with condensation.    We, the two coaches present (Kurt and Lister),  made the decision to continue with the practise plan with modifications as above.  We were able to meet all of our practise outcomes and we held practise on the track while turn 3 & 4 were damp.   This was the first time I’ve personally experimented with this option of riding while turn 3 & 4 were wet here in Victoria.  I rode on the track myself,  before recommending we begin practise, and I was pleasantly surprised that the actual surface itself was not “slippery”.   I ensured i was riding fast enough, kept a steady line,  and didnt make sudden changes to direction, etc.  I used caution when entering/exiting the track, rode a fast enough pace,  DID NOT RIDE ON THE PAINTED LINES, nor make sudden turns while on the wet section.    I would suggest further experimentation to determine the viability of riding when the entire track is wet (not just turn 3 & 4).   We may not be able to race, or host first time riding clinics on the track when it’s wet... but we can hopefully make use of the surface / facility if we are able to upgrade the painted lines.

 

Similar wet track policies are in effect on other velodromes.   See here for example wet track policy from Hellier track (GB), and  here for a similar policy from Taranaki velodrome  (NZ).    Basically,  when there is minimal dampness or light rain.. programs can run with intermediate/expert users.   When heavy rain is present, or excess standing water is present... no riding.  

 

I would recommend we engage in further discussion to research this option of re-painting the lines with such a paint to see if this expands our options.

 

Happy to continue the dialogue.

 

Kurt Innes

From: Michael Cooper

Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2015 9:06 AM

To: Gvva-News Gvva-News

[Alex]

Hi all, I was genuinely surprised by how early we're seeing the condensation on the track this season when I showed up for past Saturday's Learn to Ride. I took the mop over and was able to pick up quite a bit of water to the point where it was completely soaked and needed wringing. 

This is a two part problem I think: rain vs condensation. A roof may allow us to keep the track open during poor weather; however, there is still the issue with condensation at corner 3-4 during this time of year. We can definitely try the tent idea to test out whether it helps prevent or reduce the condensation and dew. Like Kurt has mentioned already (and I'm sure a few of us has experienced it first hand) that the damp track surface is actually fine to ride on, the main concern is the painted areas, namely the cote. If there is plan to repaint the cote in the near future, it is worth looking into a grippier paint just to make the track safer when there is moisture on top. The lines on the track should be okay to not receive a special paint treatment (in case it does affect the track's performance) as there will be no racing on a damp track anyways, riders who ride on a damp track will know not to ride directly on top of the lines and not to make sharp change in direction.

I was looking into pavement/outdoor court dryers online (eg. http://www.borum.as/Borum_Road_Dryer-40978.htm or http://greenflagsurfacetech.com/portfolio-item/gwb/), but couldn't really find any info on pricing, likely expensive.  Perhaps some kind of heated floor blower could potentially work also in drying off the moisture before holding sessions during this time of year. But like Dave said, the cost may not be worth it but we have to investigate source of this moisture and then look into possible solutions to enhance our track's usability during the off season.

-Alex