GTV gearbox internals

[andrew nahum]

Hi All,

I have just bought a pretty 235 cc Lodola from an outfit here who specialise in Italian bikes - particularly Morini - called North Leicester Motorcycles. They are good guys. (You will recognise the bike as the Carabinieri or Vigili Urbani model by the leg shields. But look how beautifully formed they are). It has been restored and kept in a static collection for years and now it is going to get the fright of its life as I have it figured for my ideal lightweight urban commuter bike. The Guzzino was fun in town but a bit scarily slow. I will use it on country runs in future.

North Leicester  are currently restoring a GTV (not for me) and they need a set of gearbox internals, or more particularly, the gears. Two questions. 

1.

Does anyone have a line on a gearbox (or maybe a complete engine) for sale?

2.

What is the commonality between GTV and other pre-war 500s regarding gearboxes? Are they all the same, running off same centres on same shafts? Is Super Alce for example using the same box as the GTV?

Best regards

Andrew

 

[Jerome Kimberlin]

On 2/18/2012 3:04 PM, andrew nahum wrote:

>
> North Leicester are currently restoring a GTV (not for me) and they
> need a set of gearbox internals, or more particularly, the gears. Two
> questions.
>
> 1.
> Does anyone have a line on a gearbox (or maybe a complete engine) for
> sale?

Since Angelo Tadini is no longer operating, I guess the next best source
is http://www.guzzimoto.com/ for all the GTV tranny parts. I wouldn't
rule out Stucchi, though. Gordon will have a better idea of what is
available at the swap meets.

> 2.
> What is the commonality between GTV and other pre-war 500s regarding
> gearboxes? Are they all the same, running off same centres on same
> shafts? Is Super Alce for example using the same box as the GTV?

No commonality betwee the GTV and SA as far as gears are concerned since
the gearboxes have different ratios. The main shaft, bearings and final
drive gear/sprocket spline is the same at the GTV. In fact, the
bearings and final drive gear/sprocket spline is the same on the S.GTV,
SA, Falcone. But you would need the GTV 4-gear countershaft cluster,
and the two GTV sliding gears with the 4-splines. The Falcone gears
look somewhat similar but won't fit. It is easy to get confused if you
are at a swap meet and see all these parts in a box. Best to count gear
teeth and have pictures. I have some old gears that can not be saved
and could count teeth for you if required.

JerryK

[Guzz...@aol.com]

Yo Stephen...........Take notes here. These and other answers to some of your questions that we discussed earlier on the phone.

 

 

         Tim

 

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[antonio]

Also the Astore gear box should fit the GTV cases, and has the same ratios.
Zipolo

[Stephen Pate]

There is a lot of weird context going on here.... Talking about how to do the Falcone setup when what he gas is a different setup... Sliding gears vs. constant mesh, etc. 

Still.... This is a great list. Wish I could get an archive of past content! 

Restoration Werks

Stephen Pate, Owner

1101 West Main Street

Louisville, KY. 40203

ste...@restorationwerks.com

http://www.restorationwerks.com

[andrew nahum]

Great info. Thanks to all.

Has Tadini really stopped? If so, who bought  the stuff?  I went a few years back and I thought a nephew or close relation was running it. He knew what I needed very accurately for the model year and I came away with a load of stuff for the Sport 15. Had to go shopping in Bergamo for a big suitcase to take the exhaust to bring as hold luggage. I didn't think they would let me carry it on the flight. 

The shop was a vintage motorcyclist's Alladin's cave. He took me back into it looking for a Guzzino coil and the racking seemed to go on and on. I thought lots of parts were genuine Guzzi factory, although there were plenty of pattern and 're-man' items too.

Andrew

[Jerome Kimberlin]

On 2/19/2012 10:51 AM, andrew nahum wrote:
> Great info. Thanks to all.
>
> Has Tadini really stopped? If so, who bought the stuff? I went a few
> years back and I thought a nephew or close relation was running it. He
> knew what I needed very accurately for the model year and I came away
> with a load of stuff for the Sport 15. Had to go shopping in Bergamo
> for a big suitcase to take the exhaust to bring as hold luggage. I
> didn't think they would let me carry it on the flight.
>
> The shop was a vintage motorcyclist's Alladin's cave. He took me back
> into it looking for a Guzzino coil and the racking seemed to go on and
> on. I thought lots of parts were genuine Guzzi factory, although there
> were plenty of pattern and 're-man' items too.

Tadini's shop was fabulous. His race bikes in the window. He has a GTW
exactly like mine, a Condor, and other bikes as well. I was able to paw
through stuff on shelves while standing on a ladder even.

I have heard that Tadini has no mobility and can't get downstairs to his
business. Thus, the shop has no fixed hours anymore. As to his nephew
or who ever, I've heard that as well. It could be that there is no
newly manufactured parts coming in as there was when he ran the
business. So now the stock is just being sold off as people make
arrangements to buy. I'd guess some relation is doing this on an
appointment basis.

I've had a couple 50 lb suitcases coming out of Tadini's as well. Last
time I was there he told me he would like to have a successor but that
no one in his family wanted the business and he did want to get some
value for it for his retirement. I guess no one had the money he was
asking.

JerryK

[peh...@comcast.net]

Stephen:  You were recently added to this group via your regular e-address.  So, although you are a member of the group, you are not a member of google.  While you do get the cureent mail, I don't think you can research the history.  In order to do so, create a google account of your own.  You should then be able to navigate to this group and search past messages by topic.  You would still get the mail discussion via your current e-address.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

---

From: "Stephen Pate" <ste...@restorationwerks.com>
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 10:01:09 AM
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] GTV gearbox internals

[Gordon de la Mare]

My understanding is that Tadini's has been shut for a couple of years.
He was taken ill in 2009 and was hospitalised.
As to who got the shop contents .. well the only rumour that I had was that Paolo Castelani acquired it all but I've never been able to get this confirmed by my Italian colleagues.
I saw Castelani last November at the Novegro Scambio but he had nothing "new" on his stall that made me think that he had got the Tadini stock.

Gordon

---

From: Jerome Kimberlin <kimb...@comcast.net>
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 19 February 2012, 20:04
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] GTV gearbox internals

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[Stephen Pate]

Cool. I have a google account too. I will go check it out! Good news!!!!

Thank You! 

Restoration Werks

Stephen Pate, Owner

1101 West Main Street

Louisville, KY. 40203

ste...@restorationwerks.com

http://www.restorationwerks.com

[Alan Comfort]

Hello Stephen,

It is my understanding that THE SPACE concept is the same for the Astore, the Super Alce and the GTV gearboxes. I now seem to have THE SPACE within specification but I will not know for sure until I spin up a few hundred miles.

The engine is in the frame now and I have moved on to the head. More woes and expenses I am afraid. The valves are pitted the seats are worn out and the exhaust rocker shaft is  is galled to the extent that it looks like a survivor from the burn ward. I'll set up the magneto and timing while I wait for parts and then move on to the suspension, steering head, brakes, wheel bearings and controls if there are any delays.

Regards, Alan in Vancouver

[andrew nahum]

One thing I've noticed about restoring Guzzis is how well worn out they can be in many different areas, whereas Brit bikes can have a major problem somewhere, which stopped them, and the rest remains OK. I think Guzzis are so well engineered that they often cover huge mileages until they are worn out all over!

Andrew 

[John Mead]

Vincents are well engineered.  There are several that have gone over 1 million miles. They only built 14k post WWII bikes and you can still get any new part you need. John Mead --- On Mon, 2/20/12, andrew nahum <andrew...@googlemail.com> wrote:

From: andrew nahum <andrew...@googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] GTV gearbox internals

[Stephen Pate]

Very True. 

Restoration Werks

Stephen Pate, Owner

1101 West Main Street

Louisville, KY. 40203

ste...@restorationwerks.com

http://www.restorationwerks.com

[Alan Comfort]

Hello John,

It is my belief that Vincents tend to go on forever because most of them fall into the care of enthusiasts who know how to maintain them. They are ridden hard but seldom abused. The everyman BSAs, Triumphs and Enfields tended to be thrashed, trashed, then left behind the shed.

I am impressed by the engineering and build quality that is present in the Falcone. Nowhere near as complicated as the Vincent, but certainly capable of going the distance, albeit at half the speed.

Regards, Alan in Vancouver

[John Mead]

I think the main reason was that you could get parts for them, unlike Guzzi's that you are still not able to get major parts for. John Mead --- On Mon, 2/20/12, Alan Comfort <alan.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Jerome Kimberlin]

On 2/20/2012 7:03 PM, John Mead wrote:

> I think the main reason was that you could get parts for them, unlike
> Guzzi's that you are still not able to get major parts for.

About 20 or so years ago, a friend at work got a Vincent Black Shadow for free.  I was going to the UK and he asked me to look for parts and manuals and the like.  I found that the VOC was the best place.  Members of the VOC who were machinists used to make parts runs every year.  One guy might make 15 crankshafts, another might make rear cylinder heads this year and front ones the next.  That way, replacement parts were more or less always available within a couple years.  They were pricy, however.

Guzzi singles are something like that too.  You can build a Sport 14 from new parts.  New crankcases and whatnot are all available.   Sheet metal parts are being made as well as every other part you might think of.  You just have to know where to go to get them.  Most likely, you will have to go to Italy, have a lot of money and time, and be willing to speak some Italian.  But you might be surprised at what you can get.

JerryK

[Alan Comfort]

There was a time when Vincent parts were scarce. A lot of them were carefully hidden away because they were too valuable to scrap. If you could not find a part for your  Villiers autobyke, it went straight to the scrap yard without a second thought. Not so with the Vincent. It would be sold to another Vincent enthusiast or put aside until the owner had the time and means to fix it. With the internet and CNC machining almost any part can be sourced. I saw a brand new set of Falcone cases on ebay a few days ago. Expensive...but available.

Alan in Vancouver 

[Graeme Studdert]

Absolutley correct Andrew.  Guzzi's are well engineered.  As a mech eng, motor mechanic and perveyor of all things mechanical for some 40 years standing I am constantly amazed by Carlo Guzzi's engineering skill and imaginative designs.  When the other manufacturers come out with a "new" design you only have to look back at some of Carlo Guzzi's designs to find it has been done before.  4 valve head in 1928!!!! Single sided swing arms in 1952, multi cyclinder engines and many many more.  I think the most amazing think for me is that, as you say Guzzi's seem to wear evenly all over which is a testiment to the quality of the design and the quality of materials specified.  This is truly the sign of an outstanding engineering achievement.   

When I was in Mandello for the 90th there were so many early Galletto's still getting about as every day transport it is amazing.  I don’t think we will see as many Honda CT110's still getting about in 60 years time.

ANyway I shall talk MG all day long if I could.

 

Graeme Studdert

 

Level 1, Suite 2, 12 Elgin Street

PO Box 29, Maitland. NSW 2320

Ph:  02 4939 5700.  Fax: 02 4934 5063.  M:   0400 635 064

 

From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of andrew nahum
Sent: Tuesday, 21 February 2012 1:38 AM
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] GTV gearbox internals

 

One thing I've noticed about restoring Guzzis is how well worn out they can be in many different areas, whereas Brit bikes can have a major problem somewhere, which stopped them, and the rest remains OK. I think Guzzis are so well engineered that they often cover huge mileages until they are worn out all over!

--

[dryde...@aol.com]

What I'm usually impressed with is that at least 9 out of 10 times you can take stuff apart 60+ years after it was first put together. Must be decent fasteners.

Upstate Mark

[Stephen Farthing]

As well as the Falconi and T3s my brother and I run some cammy AJS's from the late 20s and early 30s, a Norton CS1 and a 600cc "fore and aft" Douglas. Weirdly parts are available for most of these still if you know where to look. We did cast and machine some gearbox shells for the AJs a few years back....but normally you don't need huge resources to make stuff or fix it. When they were first made there was no such thing as CNC so the parts were all cast/machined/finished by hand using simple tools and techniques. 

We ran a Vincent for a while but it was evil handling and extremely uncomfortable to ride so we got rid of it. In the UK I have found many Vincent owners to be a bit snobby....many of them tend to look down on other motorcyclists because they believe thats they ride "God's motorcycle" and all other brands are inferior. Personally, if i had to have a fore and aft V twin I would go for a Brough or an Indian. 

It is interesting to note that in the 1950s a Falcone Sport was a lot more expensive than a Vincent V Twin. Our Falcone was imported, new into England in 1954. If you look at the build quality of it compared with the Norton/Triumph/BSA of the day i think the Guzzi wins hands down. 

Bye for now,

Steve

Wisdom demands a new orientation of science and technology towards the organic, the gentle, the non-violent, the elegant and beautiful. E. F. Schumacher

[John Mead]

He copied the 4-valve head from Peugeot who had it along with DOHC on their 1912 Grand Prix racer.  He also copied the single sided swingarm from Norbert Riedel of Germany who built the Imme R100 which had both a single-sided front wheel suspension as well as a single-sided rear swingarm that doubled as a the exhaust pipe. John Mead --- On Mon, 2/20/12, Graeme Studdert <graeme....@arkhill.com.au> wrote:

From: Graeme Studdert <graeme....@arkhill.com.au> Subject: RE: [guzzi-singles] GTV gearbox internals

[peh...@comcast.net]

Graeme:  I have to give a contrary report about Carlo Guzzi.  We don't realize how lucky we really are.  Carlo Guzzi went to engineering school in Vicenza.  While there, he was a bit of a class clown and skirt chaser.  The school tried to expel him for lax performance and too much interference from socializing.  I have seen a handwritten letter from his father pleading for them to reconsider and keep Carlo on board.  He's a good boy who just likes to have a little too much fun.  The appeal was successful.  Dad convinced Carlo to keep his nose to the grindstone and thus we have our beloved machines.  Whew!  Close call.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

---

From: "Graeme Studdert" <graeme....@arkhill.com.au>
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 2:31:07 PM

Subject: RE: [guzzi-singles] GTV gearbox internals

[Charles Mullendore]

Does the Imme have the eccentric chain  tension adjuster? Not that I can see, probably didn't need it since the Imme powerplant moved as unit with the swingarm. I don't see much resemblance between the Imme "swingarm" and the Galletto one other than they're both single-sided.   Charlie http://www.AntietamClassicCycle.com

[Stephen Farthing]

The fact is that most engineers copy from other engineers designs and also sometimes they discover things that have been discovered before. Somewhere I have an academic history book, published by "The Science Museum" in London called "Motor cycles a technical history" by C F Caunter (ISBN 0 11 290302 9). It is full of examples of this sort of thing. The first in line 4 cylinder motorcycle engine was invented by an Englishman but it took a Belgian company (FN) to turn it into a commercial success. The book is full of a lot of weird bikes, my favourite is the Megola, which has a 5 cylinder 640cc radial engine inside the front wheel....

Regards,

Steve

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[Gavin Bedggood]

Sometimes the true genius is recognising the best ideas of the day, copying them and then putting them in one package.

Very much like the early Mercedes 35hp car of 1901 that had nothing new, but had all the best ideas in one car, that went on to set the standard for the motorcar.

 

Also I think it was genius of Guzzi to use only the best materials, which is why they lasted so long and made their reputation for running for ever.

Regards

Gavin

 

----- Original Message -----

From: John Mead

To: guzzi-singles@googlegroups..com

Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 4:06 AM

Subject: RE: [guzzi-singles] GTV gearbox internals