SuperAlce for sale
Patrick Hayes
Francis
First, Happy New Year to all
I'm still in the process of sorting out this Falcone that I picked up last
year and it certainly is giving me more trouble than I ever expected. It
seems to be the classic example of someone having messed with everything and
not doing anything right. Having no previous experience with these bikes
it's difficult to know what's missing or what has been assembled
incorrectly.
As the clutch appears to be nonfunctional I have begun the process to
disassemble. I seem to recall some good soul posting a description of a
clutch disassembly. I haven't found it in the archives and could sure use
it now. After removing the flywheel it appears that a key (woodward key?)
is sheared on the crank/flywheel. What would cause this?
This is most likely old hat for most but any comments would be appreciated.
Wicker Francis
Newtown Square, PA
Dorien Berteletti
taper both male & female, loose nut and even old age/metal fatigue...or the
wrong sized key put in by the person who did "nothing right".
Dorien
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Rick
not designed to be a load bearing part. The taper with proper fastener
torque is what ensures there is no slippage. A worn taper will be
trouble with or without a key or proper tightening.
Rick Yamane
www.motionpro.com
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peh...@comcast.net
I had to test drive a Falcone last year in Italy which had just come out of a repair shop. As soon as I throttled up good on a back road, the flywheel went flying. Was never tightened adequately. I was very worried about the taper damage. I had it trailered back to the shop. He put in a new key and just used a bigger hammer on the flywheel bolt. Worked fine for the entire Puglia tour!
Yes, the key is only there to align the flywheel and the crankshaft. You could actually run without a key, but then your flywheel and casing timing arrows wouldn't necessarily match up. The flywheel is held on by the central bolt and that must be TIGHT.
What other issues do you have about the clutch? The plates can all be cleaned, burrs filed and sanded away. There is a critical dimension when installing the throwout rod into the pressure plate. There is a critical dimension when tightening the knurled disc against the clutch springs. It is critical to have a good, free-flowing clutch button bearing and grease.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Joseph Joe
http://superalcerestoration-j2maria.blogspot.com/2010/02/clutch-and-final-drive.html
From: "peh...@comcast.net" <peh...@comcast.net>
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, January 5, 2011 12:58:32 PM
Patrick Hayes
info may be helpful for your repair.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
----------------------------------------------------------
Several people are currently experiencing noisy gear change action and
poor clutch performance on cold starts. Time for a refresher on the
clutch design and the required periodic method of bathing the parts.
The Guzzi-Single clutch is composed of a stacked sandwich of 5 steel and
5 bronze plates. The steel plates are connected in their center to the
clutch fixed body hub on the primary shaft of the transmission. The
bronze plates are connected at their perimeter to the gear-like outer
body basket. There may be one or two friction material rings installed
at the base of this stack as well. The outer body basket may run on a
continuous core bushing or it may have a packet of loose rollers. All
of these options depend on which model and year you have, but the
multi-plate design and basic operation are all the same.
Here are pictures of a used plate stack and a fresh stack already
installed into my SuperAlce.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-719X.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-718X.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-720X.jpg
When the clutch is bound by its spring, the stack of plates and all of
the clutch components rotate as an intact, unit mass. When you pull on
the clutch handle, the spring pressure is countered or relieved and the
various pieces are released and allowed to move independently. In
theory, the stacked sandwich parts should all slip smoothly over each
otther so that the outer body remains spinning with the motor, while the
inner body remains stationary. This allows you to remain in gear with
the engine running.
In addition to these parts, there is a small passage at the top of the
crankcase which allows for a fine mist of air and engine oil to pass
from the crankcase chamber to the exterior clutch chamber.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-723X.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-724X.jpg
(the zip tie is in place just to demonstrate the oil passage route)
This mist of oil lubricates all the parts in the clutch chamber,
including the plates, and eventually condenses into a puddle in the
clutch chamber. It is a total loss system. There is no way for this oil
to get back into the engine case. Eventually, this condensed puddle
grows to the level that the bottom of the clutch parts are sitting in a
pool of oil and any further excess starts to leak out behind the
flywheel where the crankshaft passes through the clutch chamber. There
is no seal for this passage. This blue tape represents the maximum
depth of oil puddle within the clutch chamber before it will simply pour
out the crankshaft hole.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-722X.jpg
Guzzi didn't want to waste this oil mist, so there is also a
crossing passage which goes from the clutch chamber back to the right
side in the vicinity of the chain drive sprocket. Some of the oil mist
works its way out over here and drips onto the chain as an automatic
oiler. Clever, but messy. Many of us plug that cross passage to reduce
the mess and we then relay on modern chain sprays. You can see my plug
here.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-717X.jpg
Warm, thin, clean oil is a very nice substance to put onto the clutch
plates. It lubricates everything for smooth action and minimizes wear.
However, cold, dirty oil acts more like a glue than a lubricant and
prevents free action of the plates. The various clutch pieces all bind
together and fail to slip as intended. It can become very noisy to
shift gears, especially down into first gear. The noise also produces
damage to the tips of the gear teeth. The COMPLETE CURE is to fully
disassemble the entire clutch package and clean all the parts to new
condition.
The INTERMEDIATE MAINTENANCE solution is the BATHE the clutch parts to
remove any oil or dirt or wear material and restore original action.
Here is the procedure. It will be a VERY messy job so protect your
floor and be prepared for hazardous disposals.
First, at the lower rear curve of the clutch cover plate, there will be
a small, slotted screw-plug. Remove that to drain away all of the
condensed puddle of oil. Here is the drain plug at the lower rear of
the clutch cover.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-721X.jpg
Flipping the cover over, you may be able to see the interior tip of this
drain plug at the lower left.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-722X.jpg
Second, at the top of the left side crankcase you will find an engine
breather tube which returns crankcase pressure and oil mist back to the
oil reservoir tank. Adjacent to that breather tube is a slotted plug
which leads directly to the clutch chamber below.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-723X.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-724X.jpg
(the zip tie is in place just to demonstrate the oil passage route)
Third, introduce a pint of 'paint thinner' into the clutch chamber via
the upper plug. If you put too much, it will simply run out the opening
behind the flywheel.
CAUTION: In America, paint thinner is also known
as mineral spirits. It is a good solvent, but not particularly volatile
or harsh to painted surfaces. In Europe however, the term 'paint
thinner' refers to something Americans call lacquer thinner. This
latter material is highly flammable and an instant paint remover and
should NOT be used for this cleaning purpose. In a pinch, you can use
gasoline. But please don't smoke while working.
Fourth, push the kickstarter repeatedly. While doing so, pull on the
clutch handle slightly so that the engine does not turn over but the
kickstarter does go through full throw. In this way, the kickstarter
will be rotating the inner body and steel plates, while engine
compression will be holding back the external body and bronze plates.
The paint thinner will remove oil, grime, and wear contaminants from the
clutch parts and drop them into the bottom of the clutch chamber cover.
Do this kicking and feathering for several minutes.
Fifth, remove the plug at the rear lower corner of the clutch cover and
drain away the contaminated paint thinner. Although dirty, it might be
useful for other rough part washing tasks around your shop. Let it
settle for a week so you can decant the liquid off of the settled sludge.
Sixth, repeat steps three through five, perhaps a total of three rinse
cycles.
Seventh, clean up your mess and go for a ride. It will likely be
several months or a year before you need to repeat this procedure
depending on your miles driven.
As a TEMPORARY AID before you have an opportunity to perform the more
involved bathing or disassembly tasks you can assist the releasing of
the cold clutch plates. You will generally find that shifting from
neutral into second gear is a lot easier than shifting down into first.
So, on a cold started motor, shift into second. Gently rev the motor
slightly, and, while holding the hand or foot brake, feather release the
clutch handle a few times so that you force a slippage of the plates
several times. Do this almost to the point of stalling the motor. This
will quickly heat the oil film which is binding the plates and the
underlying components. You may now be able to return to idle and more
quietly shift into first gear.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
SuperAlce and Falcone-NT
Francis
"The taper with proper fastener
torque is what ensures there is no slippage"
Do you know the correct torque?
Wicker
Patrick Hayes
I have a 1/2" drive air gun and a 100psi compressor. I think it will do
about 120 to 130 ftlbs. I run that until it stops moving.
Patrick
Francis
Patrick
You did supply good photos for clutch cleaning and I still have them so don’t bother digging them out. I’m really trying to understand how to disassemble the clutch package. I’ve been looking at the parts book but it isn’t clear how it comes apart.
I’m assuming a clutch issue as it won’t go into any gear.
Wicker
Wicker,
I did a report last year about bathing the clutch and that has some disassembly
pictures. I'll try to resurrect it when I get back to my home pc.
I had to test drive a Falcone last year in Italy which had just come out of a
repair shop. As soon as I throttled up good on a back road, the flywheel
went flying. Was never tightened adequately. I was very worried
about the taper damage. I had it trailered back to the shop. He put
in a new key and just used a bigger hammer on the flywheel bolt. Worked
fine for the entire Puglia
tour!
Yes, the key is only there to align the flywheel and the crankshaft. You
could actually run without a key, but then your flywheel and casing timing
arrows wouldn't necessarily match up. The flywheel is held on by the
central bolt and that must be TIGHT.
What other issues do you have about the clutch? The plates can all be
cleaned, burrs filed and sanded away. There is a critical dimension when
installing the throwout rod into the pressure plate. There is a critical
dimension when tightening the knurled disc against the clutch springs. It
is critical to have a good, free-flowing clutch button bearing and grease.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Francis
Joe
What a remarkable blog. I took a quick look just now and look forward to studying this tonight.
Wicker
From:
guzzi-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Joe
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011
2:16 PM
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles]
Clutch disassembly
Here are some pictures and assembly notes from when I was restoring my
SA. Hope they come in useful..
http://superalcerestoration-j2maria.blogspot.com/2010/02/clutch-and-final-drive.html
Jerry Kimberlin
> After removing the flywheel it appears that a key (woodward key?)
> is sheared on the crank/flywheel. What would cause this?
Hi Wicker,
Looks like you have some good answers for the clutch.
The flywheel must fit onto the crank taper without any
rocking or wobble. To do this, you take off the primary
gear and spring and take out the key.
Then, after making sure there are no burrs or dirt on either
the flywheel taper or the crank taper, you put the two
together. They should be a snug fit, without any rocking
back and forth in any direction. If there is, you will have
to get some grinding compound and lap the flywheel to the crank.
If the key has sheared and there are grooves on the taper,
it is almost certain that you will have to clean up the
tapers (gently with a needle file) and lap them together.
Once the flywheel fits with no rocking, you can replace the
key. Test again for flywheel rocking in every direction.
If there is any, this indicates that the key is too tall.
So you will have to reduce the key height until it all fits
with no movement.
Only then should you replace the spring and gear and put on
the clutch cover.
The flywheel nut should be tight but you don't have to beat
on it too hard. I just use an 18" bar in the flywheel tool,
hand tighten it until it moves no more, then give it a
couple whacks with a hammer. Then do the keeper ring the
same way.
It is the taper that takes the load and the key is just to
index the flywheel so you can find TDC.
JerryK
Gordon de la Mare
Do this lightly and with a fine lapping compound / grinding paste.
If you get carried away you with lapping you will lap it so far that the
flywheel will reach the crankase which is not very smart.
The Italian experts do just like Jerry does ... .. 18" (ish) bar whacked with
hammer.
Cheers
Gordon
----- Original Message ----
From: Jerry Kimberlin <kimb...@comcast.net>
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 5 January, 2011 20:54:12
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Clutch disassembly
Hi Wicker,
JerryK
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
Patrick Hayes
On 1/5/2011 11:49 AM, Francis wrote:
> I�m really trying to understand how to
> disassemble the clutch package. I�ve been looking at the parts book but
> it isn�t clear how it comes apart.
You might not realize that you have to disassemble both sides
simultaneously. The throwout rod unscrews from the center of the
pressure plate and comes out the right side of the bike. Have to take
the clutch springs off first. There is a little trick with a notched
collet sleeve on the right side when you reassemble. The outer, knurled
clutch spring disc on the right side is reverse, or lef-hand threaded so
you will have to turn it clockwise to remove the disc, then the springs,
then the throwout rod. Once you pull out that rod, the clutch bits will
just fall on the floor on the left side.
> I�m assuming a clutch issue as it won�t go into any gear.
Ask here before assuming. Are you trying to shift a standing motorbike?
It won't shift when everything is standing still. You might get away
with someone turning the rear wheel for you while it is on the
centerstand. Otherwise, pull the spark plug and have someone turn the
flywheel repeatedly. The internal shafts have to have some rolling
motion for it to shift well. I find it impossible to shift one of these
motors when it is sitting on a bench after assembly.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Francis
Always concerned about overstaying my welcome so trying to limit the
questions.
So....... Engine running, standing still, compress clutch, attempt first
gear. No engagement just the horrible sound of gears clashing. Then a
rolling start at about 5 mph and attempt 2nd, 3rd gears. Again clashing
gears. There is no way to get in any gear. This is why I think clutch.
I've tried adjusting clutch with no positive results.
With all the input today I now understand about the throwout rod and will
attempt tonight.
Wicker
-----Original Message-----
From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Patrick Hayes
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 4:47 PM
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Clutch disassembly
On 1/5/2011 11:49 AM, Francis wrote:
> I'm really trying to understand how to
> disassemble the clutch package. I've been looking at the parts book but
> it isn't clear how it comes apart.
You might not realize that you have to disassemble both sides
simultaneously. The throwout rod unscrews from the center of the
pressure plate and comes out the right side of the bike. Have to take
the clutch springs off first. There is a little trick with a notched
collet sleeve on the right side when you reassemble. The outer, knurled
clutch spring disc on the right side is reverse, or lef-hand threaded so
you will have to turn it clockwise to remove the disc, then the springs,
then the throwout rod. Once you pull out that rod, the clutch bits will
just fall on the floor on the left side.
> I'm assuming a clutch issue as it won't go into any gear.
Rick
If there is no factory published spec, there are charts that will give
you torque figures for a given thread size.
Here's one I just found:
<http://www.imperialinc.com/pdf/A_FastenerTorqueCharts.pdf>
Rick Yamane
www.motionpro.com
Become a fan on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
Thanks, Rick
Wicker
Patrick Hayes
On 1/5/2011 2:06 PM, Francis wrote:
> Patrick
>
> Always concerned about overstaying my welcome so trying to limit the
> questions.
And I lament there is too little chatter on this list.
> So....... Engine running, standing still, compress clutch, attempt first
> gear. No engagement just the horrible sound of gears clashing. Then a
> rolling start at about 5 mph and attempt 2nd, 3rd gears. Again clashing
> gears. There is no way to get in any gear. This is why I think clutch.
> I've tried adjusting clutch with no positive results.
That sounds a lot to me like the clutch is just totally stuck together
with dried oil and grunge. Disassemble, clean, reassemble, adjust.
Might be all you need.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Rick
Your clutch is not disengaging. I'm too ignorant of the Guzzi way of
doing things but assuming it is a multiplate clutch standard to most
motorcycles, check the splines of the hub and the fingers of the basket
to make sure they are fairly smooth. Over time they will get grooved by
the plates and can hang-up not allowing disengagement. There is also
normally a method to set an internal freeplay adjustment and spring
pressure adjustment.
A clutch that won't disengage is usually from too loose of an
adjustment.
Also a wet clutch that has been sitting for too long will have the
plates stick. Sometimes they can be freed by rocking the bike in gear or
operating the kick starter with the clutch lever pulled in. Often the
clutch will need to come apart and be cleaned though
Rick Yamane
www.motionpro.com
Become a fan on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
-----Original Message-----
From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Francis
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 2:07 PM
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [guzzi-singles] Clutch disassembly
Patrick
Wicker
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
GuzziSVT
- Engine not running
- Move rear wheel back and forth
- Push down on gear shift lever
Even if the clutch is stuck it should go into gear
Bill Doll
From: Patrick Hayes <peh...@comcast.net>
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, January 5, 2011 4:15:56 PM
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Clutch disassembly
To post to this group, send email to guzzi-...@googlegroups.com.
Guzz...@aol.com
jfra...@etidewater.com
Thanks to everyone's quick input. Clutch disassembled and see pieces in
these photos. Discs were stuck together and really had to pry apart with
fingers. What should be the surface of the bronze discs. They are
somewhat scored. The 'ears' are a bit banged up.
Are all the pieces there?
http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab185/WFrancis1/P1050081.jpg
http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab185/WFrancis1/P1050082.jpg
Wicker Francis
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Patrick Hayes
On 1/5/2011 4:35 PM, jfra...@etidewater.com wrote:
>
> Thanks to everyone's quick input. Clutch disassembled and see pieces in
> these photos. Discs were stuck together and really had to pry apart with
> fingers. What should be the surface of the bronze discs. They are
> somewhat scored. The 'ears' are a bit banged up.
> Are all the pieces there?
Wicker: Looks terrific. Nothing wrong with those bits. Clean it all
up. File down any of the ear high spots. Coat with a light finger film
of fresh oil. Reassemble.
The throwout rod gets installed so that it protrudes ONE TURN of thread
proud of the outside pressure plate. Since it is a 6X1 thread, 1mm will
do the trick.
You install the notched collet on the flats of the throwout rod. When
you go to screw on the knurled outer disc, it invariably pushes in and
disengages the notched collet. Easy. Before installing the knurled
disc, reach in between the spring coils with a screwdriver and lightly
hold the collet outbound. Now you need only attach the disc by one turn
or so before you can remove the screwdriver.
Adjusting the spring pressure can be hard. I use a leather strap to
protect the disc and channel lock pliers to grasp it all. Remember, it
is backwards thread. Might have to be in gear. (Ooops, that's your
basic problem). You need to turn the disc in to compress the springs.
I think the final flat to flat length of the spring after adjustment is
27mm or 27.5mm. Should be in your books.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Jerry Kimberlin
> these photos. Discs were stuck together and really had to pry apart with
> fingers. What should be the surface of the bronze discs. They are
> somewhat scored. The 'ears' are a bit banged up.
> Are all the pieces there?
>
>
> http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab185/WFrancis1/P1050081.jpg
> http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab185/WFrancis1/P1050082.jpg
From what I can see they look pretty normal. You will want
to take the burrs off the 6 ears on the bronze plates. Just
file them flat with the disk. You also want to hold a
straight edge across the steel plates to see that they are
flat. Check the composition ring just to see if it looks
OK. There is another composition ring behind the gear to
check also. The bronze surface will look a little scored
but deep grooves mean that something has been in there, like
sand or other grit. Looks like you have the clutch area
washed out pretty well and the plates cleaned.
When you put it back together, use a dab of ATF to moisten
the disks. You don't need much, just a slight film.
The rod that comes through from the other side should stick
out about 1 1/2 threads beyond the pressure plate.
The springs should be tightened to 27.5 mm length on reassembly.
Make sure you have eight 3mm balls (not 1/8") in the clutch
button and that it is lubed with Molykote G n
(McMaster-Carr #1204K33). Don't get this stuff anywhere
near the clutch plates. And relube the clutch button often
as this is the weak part of the clutch assembly.
JerryK
jfra...@etidewater.com
This is exactly what I needed.
Should I try to remove the scoring on the discs? Would it help to put a
mat surface on the discs by glass beading?
To clarify the difficulty of getting into gear. I can work it into gear
with engine not running but with engine running the gears clash.
Wicker
jfra...@etidewater.com
Many thanks
What do you mean by the "other" composition ring behind the gear?
Wicker
Patrick Hayes
On 1/5/2011 5:22 PM, jfra...@etidewater.com wrote:
> Should I try to remove the scoring on the discs?
A light sanding can't hurt, but I don't think its necessary unless you
want to be anal. These plates really do look pretty nice as is. BTW,
the crankshaft cone doesn't look all that bad either. I was expectingn
worse. How about some other macro shots of that condition?
Would it help to put a
> mat surface on the discs by glass beading?
Probably wouldn't make a difference. This is a pretty stout clutch once
adjusted properly.
> To clarify the difficulty of getting into gear. I can work it into gear
> with engine not running but with engine running the gears clash.
Pretty characteristic of a stuck up clutch as you found when
disassembling. It will always crunch just a little. More so on the
first, cold shift of the day. Often, that first start of the day is
better to shift to second, creep forward a few feet by feathering the
clutch to warm its surfaces, then shift back to first before departure.
Hey, you wanted a bike with soul. Its just talking back to you a
little. Personality of its own. :-)
Patrick
Patrick Hayes
On 1/5/2011 5:26 PM, jfra...@etidewater.com wrote:
> What do you mean by the "other" composition ring behind the gear?
You can just grab the big clutch basket gear and pull it off now. There
will be another composition plate behind it. Clean that also. Careful
to fish the helical teeth with the dinamo gear when you reinstall.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Jerry Kimberlin
>
> Many thanks
>
> What do you mean by the "other" composition ring behind the gear.
OK, Pat told you about that ring behind the clutch basket.
You will want to clean it and the clutch gear too.
Also, don't bead blast the clutch plates, they will warp
beyond use if you do. You could sand the bronze plates if
they have little berries gouged up on the surface, but I
didn't see anything in your pictures that indicate that.
Just make sure all the plates are dead flat and burr free on
the tabs so they will lay flat against each other.
BTW - the plates are 1 mm thick. When they wear down to 0.8
or so they will be replacement candidates soon, both steel
and bronze.
JerryK
jfra...@etidewater.com
It seems everything I own has soul.
I've owned this bike for almost a year and I still haven't had a decent
ride on it. Although, with all of your help I'm getting closer.
Wicker
jfra...@etidewater.com
Patrick Hayes
On 1/5/2011 5:55 PM, jfra...@etidewater.com wrote:
> SOUL!?
>
> It seems everything I own has soul.
> I've owned this bike for almost a year and I still haven't had a decent
> ride on it. Although, with all of your help I'm getting closer.
Get in line. My first Eldorado was a complete, bent wreck. It had
rear-ended a VW beetle and sheared two cylinders off the beetle engine.
I spent two years reconstructing that and I had never been on a Guzzi.
Sold it away after 110,000 miles.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Patrick Hayes
I'd like Jerry to opine on this as he has seend and corrected several.
All in all it is not too bad. The keyway retaining slot in the crank
could be cleaned out a little with perhaps some Dremel bit like a
dentist. It doesn't have to be perfect. Better loose and small than
too tight so that it prevents cone seating. Remember, the key is only
there to ensure proper timing alignment for the flywheel and its arrow.
Technically could move its position and stamp a new arrow. That taper
should clean up nicely with some fine lapping compound.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Jerry Kimberlin
That will have to be cleaned up a bit. I've seen a lot
worse. A little lapping should cure that mess around the
gouge once you have taken a needle file to it lightly.
But pay attention to Gordon's words about lapping too much.
JerryK
jfra...@etidewater.com
Thanks, boys
Nick Thomas
Jumping in here because I recently did this. With Jerry's
instructions and advice I lapped my own Falcone flywheel/shaft for the
same problem not too long ago. It's not hard, just tedious. I used
fine valve lapping compound exclusively, and were I do to it again I'd
be tempted to use a medium grit the first few passes, then switch to
fine.
I went slowly and carefully and it took me a little over an hour.
It's a pretty simple task. You coat the inside of the flywheel and
the outside of the shaft with lapping compound and put them together.
Press the flywheel on with medium pressure and rotate the flywheel in
one direction about 15 degrees, and then back the other way about 5
degrees. Then forward another 15 degrees and back 5. Do this until
you've made one complete revolution. Then go back the other way one
complete revolution. Clean everything off, add new lapping compound
and repeat. A lot. Your goal is to get the flywheel to sit on the
shaft without wobbling AT ALL. Occasionally check by cleaning the
compound, putting it on the shaft and pushing right and left, up and
down, and every other way you can. There should be no movement.
That's your goal.
In my case, about 75% of the shaft surface lapped in about 15 minutes,
and the remain ing 25% took another 45 minutes. Take breaks. Breathe
deeply.
After the first few passes, you'll see where the surfaces have started
to mate. They'll be a uniform color. This will tell you how far back
on the shaft the flywheel sits. If someone else already did this, the
danger is that the flywheel moves back on the shaft far enough to hit
the flywheel cover when the bike is assembled. It's unlikely I think
but worth checking. And even if that happens your fallback is to
have a machinist weld a new tapered plug into the flywheel and mill
the two surfaces (OK, and you'll have to repaint and rechrome the
flywheel, but that'ts the most important part of the bike, right?).
Good luck and let the group know if you have more questions.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to solve a problem for the Nigerian
Finance Minister....
-Nick
Guzz...@aol.com
GuzziSVT
From: "Guzz...@aol.com" <Guzz...@aol.com>
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, January 5, 2011 4:57:04 PM
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Clutch disassembly
Rick
I would rub the plates on a glass or marble with some fine-extra fine
wet/dry paper to ensure the discs are flat. Clean them well and lightly
oil before assembly. It would be a good idea to check the unloaded
length of the springs. They should all be the same. If you have an arbor
press and suitable scale, you can also check the tension. Someone might
have a spec for this but having them all in a close range might be more
important.
Looks like in the photos that the key is still in the grooves. The one
in the flywheel should punch out pretty easily. The one in the crank
should come out by applying a center punch with light to moderate taps
at one end or the other. The key has a round bottom and this action
should "roll" it out of the groove enough to pry it the rest of the way
with a small screwdriver or tap at the end with a small chisel.
I like to dress the keyway and taper with a fine file. I have jewelers
files that work well in the grooves and slots. I find it much easier to
control a file than any sort of Dremel, die grinder of flex shaft.
The crank taper, I use a fine file and go after the burred edges around
the keyway. I'll dress the inside of the taper with a fine round or half
round file. On these non-drive bearing parts, the taper is not extremely
critical. If it were for a primary gear or something like that then it
would require more attention.
A proper fitting woodruff key, those being the half round type, should
fit snug enough in the crank to not drop out if inverted but shouldn't
need to be tapped in with a hammer. The height will always look like
less than you think you need. The key can be filed for a near perfect
fit and it will need to be filed if you can't find the exact size.
Some old timers will leave a bit of lapping paste on the taper on
assembly. The thinking is that the grit will help seat and hold the
parts together. I've never done that but on a flywheel I doubt it would
be needed anyway.
Rick Yamane
www.motionpro.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
jfra...@etidewater.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 6:01 PM
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [guzzi-singles] Clutch disassembly
http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab185/WFrancis1/P1050085.jpg
http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab185/WFrancis1/P1050084.jpg
--
Patrick Hayes
multi-plate clutch. I have a few comments.
On 1/6/2011 9:10 AM, Rick wrote:
> I would rub the plates on a glass or marble with some fine-extra fine
> wet/dry paper to ensure the discs are flat.
The whole affair is pretty crude but works fairly well as long as it is
clean. The motor doesn't have all that much power. Surely you don't
want major burrs or warps on the plates, but this is not an area where
precision makes much difference. Clean and smooth to the finger is
certainly adequate.
> It would be a good idea to check the unloaded
> length of the springs. They should all be the same.
Unlike a modern clutch with 8 or 10 perimeter springs driving the
pressure plate, this clutch has two concentric springs on the end of the
throwout rod that do the work. They are stout springs. There is an
unloaded and loaded spec in the book, but I've never seen one go bad.
Again, it is a light duty system and it would work sufficiently as long
as you didn't break a coil.
> Looks like in the photos that the key is still in the grooves. The one
> in the flywheel should punch out pretty easily. The one in the crank
> should come out by applying a center punch with light to moderate taps
> at one end or the other. The key has a round bottom and this action
> should "roll" it out of the groove enough to pry it the rest of the way
> with a small screwdriver or tap at the end with a small chisel.
This system does NOT use a traditional, half-moon key. It is a flat,
rectangular key with latterally, not vertically rounded ends and sits
flush in a flat bottom groove. Does anyone have a spare crank available
to photo the key slot in the crank? Or a spare replacement key to
photo that? So, such tapping isn't going to roll it out the way a
normal Woodruff key would. Might have to figure a way to bite this part
of the key stuck in the crank.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Dorien Berteletti
A note for the future....these clutches will stick if the bike is not used
regularly or sits over the winter. A minor sticking will result in a bit of
a crunch the first time you select first gear and then all will be well.
Other times things may be a little stickier.....On the top of the clutch
case there is a fitting and a corresponding one at the bottom. I put in a
pint or so of paint thinner or similar and run the engine pulling and
releasing the clutch lever a dozen times. This washes / cleans the plates
and you are set to go. The bottom fitting is a drain plug.
Regards,
Dorien
>
>
> --
>
>
Francis
I will remember this as the bike will be stored in the winter.
Wicker
-----Original Message-----
From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Dorien Berteletti
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 1:27 PM
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Clutch disassembly
--
Jerry Kimberlin
> This system does NOT use a traditional, half-moon key. It is
> a flat, rectangular key with latterally, not vertically
> rounded ends and sits flush in a flat bottom groove.
It is called a shaft key and is a standard. I think it is 5
x 5 x some length mm. See this URL for a description.
http://www.metricmcc.com/catalog/Ch2/2-227.pdf
You can actually buy the things, but buying one..? Wouldn't
be worth the trouble. Making one is easier.
You can get them out of the shaft with a center punch,
though. It just takes a little bashing back and forth until
it gets loosened a little.
JerryK
jfra...@etidewater.com
Armed with all the great advice I've started to clean up the clutch discs
and notice two things:
a) the ears on the bronze discs are crushed loosing about 3mm of their width.
b) there is signifigant scoring which I would think would help to capture
excess oil and grit.
Would these issues justify a new pack?
Wicker
Jerry Kimberlin
>
> Armed with all the great advice I've started to clean up the clutch discs
> and notice two things:
> a) the ears on the bronze discs are crushed loosing about 3mm of their width.
That won't matter. I've seen them run with about 4 mm or
less left. Just get the burrs off.
> b) there is significant scoring which I would think would help to capture
> excess oil and grit.
I think I would just put it together and try it. The clutch
plates are easy to install. You should take off any blobs,
as I mentioned before. The largest problem with these
clutches that I've found is warped plates.
> Would these issues justify a new pack?
Not until you actually get the bike running and try it.
I've got a bunch of good used and new broken sets. If you
only need one or two plates, let me know. New, complete
sets are expensive.
JerryK
jfra...@etidewater.com
Ok, I'll get it back together with the right adjustments and see if
its a working clutch.
W.