The Periodic Clutch Bath

[Patrick Hayes]

Several people are currently experiencing noisy gear change action and
poor clutch performance on cold starts. Time for a refresher on the
clutch design and the required periodic method of bathing the parts.

The Guzzi-Single clutch is composed of a stacked sandwich of 5 steel and
5 bronze plates. The steel plates are connected in their center to the
clutch fixed body hub on the primary shaft of the transmission. The
bronze plates are connected at their perimeter to the gear-like outer
body basket. There may be one or two friction material rings installed
at the base of this stack as well. The outer body basket may run on a
continuous core bushing or it may have a packet of loose rollers. All
of these options depend on which model and year you have, but the
multi-plate design and basic operation are all the same.

Here are pictures of a used plate stack and a fresh stack already
installed into my SuperAlce.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-719X.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-718X.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-720X.jpg

When the clutch is bound by its spring, the stack of plates and all of
the clutch components rotate as an intact, unit mass. When you pull on
the clutch handle, the spring pressure is countered or relieved and the
various pieces are released and allowed to move independently. In
theory, the stacked sandwich parts should all slip smoothly over each
otther so that the outer body remains spinning with the motor, while the
inner body remains stationary. This allows you to remain in gear with
the engine running.

In addition to these parts, there is a small passage at the top of the
crankcase which allows for a fine mist of air and engine oil to pass
from the crankcase chamber to the exterior clutch chamber.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-723X.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-724X.jpg
(the zip tie is in place just to demonstrate the oil passage route)

This mist of oil lubricates all the parts in the clutch chamber,
including the plates, and eventually condenses into a puddle in the
clutch chamber. It is a total loss system. There is no way for this oil
to get back into the engine case. Eventually, this condensed puddle
grows to the level that the bottom of the clutch parts are sitting in a
pool of oil and any further excess starts to leak out behind the
flywheel where the crankshaft passes through the clutch chamber. There
is no seal for this passage. This blue tape represents the maximum
depth of oil puddle within the clutch chamber before it will simply pour
out the crankshaft hole.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-722X.jpg

Guzzi didn't want to waste this oil mist, so there is also a
crossing passage which goes from the clutch chamber back to the right
side in the vicinity of the chain drive sprocket. Some of the oil mist
works its way out over here and drips onto the chain as an automatic
oiler. Clever, but messy. Many of us plug that cross passage to reduce
the mess and we then relay on modern chain sprays. You can see my plug
here.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-717X.jpg

Warm, thin, clean oil is a very nice substance to put onto the clutch
plates. It lubricates everything for smooth action and minimizes wear.
However, cold, dirty oil acts more like a glue than a lubricant and
prevents free action of the plates. The various clutch pieces all bind
together and fail to slip as intended. It can become very noisy to
shift gears, especially down into first gear. The noise also produces
damage to the tips of the gear teeth. The COMPLETE CURE is to fully
disassemble the entire clutch package and clean all the parts to new
condition.

The INTERMEDIATE MAINTENANCE solution is the BATHE the clutch parts to
remove any oil or dirt or wear material and restore original action.
Here is the procedure. It will be a VERY messy job so protect your
floor and be prepared for hazardous disposals.

First, at the lower rear curve of the clutch cover plate, there will be
a small, slotted screw-plug. Remove that to drain away all of the
condensed puddle of oil. Here is the drain plug at the lower rear of
the clutch cover.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-721X.jpg

Flipping the cover over, you may be able to see the interior tip of this
drain plug at the lower left.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-722X.jpg

Second, at the top of the left side crankcase you will find an engine
breather tube which returns crankcase pressure and oil mist back to the
oil reservoir tank. Adjacent to that breather tube is a slotted plug
which leads directly to the clutch chamber below.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-723X.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-724X.jpg
(the zip tie is in place just to demonstrate the oil passage route)

Third, introduce a pint of 'paint thinner' into the clutch chamber via
the upper plug. If you put too much, it will simply run out the opening
behind the flywheel.

CAUTION: In America, paint thinner is also known
as mineral spirits. It is a good solvent, but not particularly volatile
or harsh to painted surfaces. In Europe however, the term 'paint
thinner' refers to something Americans call lacquer thinner. This
latter material is highly flammable and an instant paint remover and
should NOT be used for this cleaning purpose. In a pinch, you can use
gasoline. But please don't smoke while working.

Fourth, push the kickstarter repeatedly. While doing so, pull on the
clutch handle slightly so that the engine does not turn over but the
kickstarter does go through full throw. In this way, the kickstarter
will be rotating the inner body and steel plates, while engine
compression will be holding back the external body and bronze plates.
The paint thinner will remove oil, grime, and wear contaminants from the
clutch parts and drop them into the bottom of the clutch chamber cover.
Do this kicking and feathering for several minutes.

Fifth, remove the plug at the rear lower corner of the clutch cover and
drain away the contaminated paint thinner. Although dirty, it might be
useful for other rough part washing tasks around your shop. Let it
settle for a week so you can decant the liquid off of the settled sludge.

Sixth, repeat steps three through five, perhaps a total of three rinse
cycles.

Seventh, clean up your mess and go for a ride. It will likely be
several months or a year before you need to repeat this procedure
depending on your miles driven.

As a TEMPORARY AID before you have an opportunity to perform the more
involved bathing or disassembly tasks you can assist the releasing of
the cold clutch plates. You will generally find that shifting from
neutral into second gear is a lot easier than shifting down into first.
So, on a cold started motor, shift into second. Gently rev the motor
slightly, and, while holding the hand or foot brake, feather release the
clutch handle a few times so that you force a slippage of the plates
several times. Do this almost to the point of stalling the motor. This
will quickly heat the oil film which is binding the plates and the
underlying components. You may now be able to return to idle and more
quietly shift into first gear.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
SuperAlce and Falcone-NT

[Jerry Kimberlin]

Patrick Hayes wrote:

> Several people are currently experiencing noisy gear change action and
> poor clutch performance on cold starts. Time for a refresher on the
> clutch design and the required periodic method of bathing the parts.

Nice write-up Patrick. Why not put this in the files so
that it can be referred to in the future and so no one has
to write it up again? You might have to embed the photos on
the group, though, in case your photo depository gets
changed somehow.

JerryK

[Joël urruty]

WOW! Thanks Patrick that is extremely helpful. I noticed that
someone has beaten me to the punch and has already plugged my chain
mist oil passage, although it still seems to get messy there.
I hate to ask, but what kind of oil should we be using on these old
singles?

Joël

[Patrick Hayes]

Jo�l urruty wrote:
> WOW! Thanks Patrick that is extremely helpful. I noticed that
> someone has beaten me to the punch and has already plugged my chain
> mist oil passage, although it still seems to get messy there.
> I hate to ask, but what kind of oil should we be using on these old
> singles?

You should use a single weight grade of oil. I think most are using 40W
but perhaps 50W is OK if you are not in a really cold climate.

Jerry Kimberlin would be a much better resource for this question.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Jerry Kimberlin]

On 2/22/2010 2:56 PM, Patrick Hayes wrote:

> You should use a single weight grade of oil. I think most are using 40W
> but perhaps 50W is OK if you are not in a really cold climate.
>
> Jerry Kimberlin would be a much better resource for this question.

I use 40 wt year around. Non-detergent is best as well, if
you can find it these days. This is for northern California.

I'd use 30 wt between -15 and + 10 deg C, though. Then 40wt
up to about 35 deg C, and 50 wt above that. Guzzi singles
never run very hot, luckily.

JerryK

[Gordon de la Mare]

I use straight 40 oil in my 500 singles (2xFalcone, 1x Dondolino and 1x Ercole) and tend to use either Castrol XXL40 or Fuchs/Silkolene (Chatsworth 40 blend that is formulated for 1950-60's engines).
Not sure of non-Europen distribution tnough.
Cheers
Gordon

----- Original Message ----
From: Patrick Hayes <peh...@comcast.net>
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, 22 February, 2010 22:56:20
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: The Periodic Clutch Bath

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Guzzi Singles" group.
To post to this group, send email to guzzi-...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to guzzi-single...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/guzzi-singles?hl=en.

[Joël urruty]

40 wt monograde non detergent. Great! now the search begins. If
anyone can point me in the right direction it's much appreciated. I
live In the states.

Thanks, Joël

[Joël urruty]

I think I found some

http://5xracing.com/i-1399834-brad-penn-penn-grade-1-racing-monograde-40wt-engine-oil.html

I've never heard of Brad Penn.

Jpël

[Patrick Hayes]

Jo�l urruty wrote:
> 40 wt monograde non detergent. Great! now the search begins. If
> anyone can point me in the right direction it's much appreciated. I
> live In the states.

I've used Penzoil in the past. Now on Kendall. Should be easy to find.

Patrick

[Jerry Kimberlin]

On 2/22/2010 3:55 PM, Jo�l urruty wrote:

> I think I found some
>
> http://5xracing.com/i-1399834-brad-penn-penn-grade-1-racing-monograde-40wt-engine-oil.html
>
> I've never heard of Brad Penn.

They are touting their oil as the real pennsylvania crude
oil. They bought the Pennzoil refinery a few years back or
something like that and decided to specialize in oil for
vintage vehicles. It isn't widely distributed out here in
CA - maybe one guy in the SF Bay area who carries it.

If you go to their site, they have an interesting story.
http://www.bradpennracing.com/

Another brand is Red Line if you want a synthetic. I'm
using Kendall oil which is available at a local auto parts
place.

> http://www.redlineoil.com/

JerryK

[andrew nahum]

Patrick,

Many thanks. That is so helpful. My Airone Sport has always lubricated
the silencer too out of the chain mist hole. Have tried various ways
to get it to breath in a different direction. Delighted to know I can
block the feed hole. Is it possible to cut off the flow from the set
screw hole above as per your

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-724X.jpg

Or do I need to go in to the clutch housing? Did you drill and tap the
feed hole to retain the plug or what?

Best regards

Andrew

On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 6:39 PM, Patrick Hayes <peh...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Several people are currently experiencing noisy gear change action and
> poor clutch performance on cold starts.  Time for a refresher on the
> clutch design and the required periodic method of bathing the parts.
>
> The Guzzi-Single clutch is composed of a stacked sandwich of 5 steel and
> 5 bronze plates.  The steel plates are connected in their center to the
> clutch fixed body hub on the primary shaft of the transmission.  The
> bronze plates are connected at their perimeter to the gear-like outer
> body basket.  There may be one or two friction material rings installed
> at the base of this stack as well.  The outer body basket may run on a
> continuous core bushing or it may have a packet of loose rollers.  All of
> these options depend on which model and year you have, but the multi-plate
> design and basic operation are all the same.
>
> Here are pictures of a used plate stack and a fresh stack already
> installed into my SuperAlce.
>
> http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-719X.jpg
>
> http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-718X.jpg
>
> http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-720X.jpg
>

>

[Gavin Bedggood]

Hiya Guys,

I bought a Dec '62 Falcone Tuismo, with Sport bars, pegs and pedals from
Switerland about 8 years ago. It came to me partly dissasembled so I am
having some issues puting it back together again!
The bike came with the clutch off and a new one in a packet ready to go in
and a new little bearing for the end of the clutch rod.

Now I can get the new plates all in no worries..... and I worked out the
reverse thread on the spring(s) retainer....

But I can't work out how to get the thing all installed....

Can someone please walk me through the process step by step?
Do I need to make a clutch spring compressor??

HELP!!

Also with the oil lines... mine were chromed by the previous owner... I am
concerned about the sealing if the ends have chrome on them that will not
make a good seal. Any ideas on how to sort that out? Some "goo" maybe that
will help them seal?

Also two do not line up so I think I will have to get the welding torch on
them to bend them to the right angle again.
The long one that goes from the left of the oil tank across and to the pump
seems to fowl the inlet manifold?? Can people look to see if their oil line
has a kink in it to clear the mainifold?

Kind regards
Gavin

[peh...@comcast.net]

Yes, the cross passage was tapped with a standard tapered pipe thread tap.  IIRC I may have had to modify the plug by cutting or grinding and then slicing a new screwdriver slot so that it would be close to flush so as to clear the nearby gears.  Modify to suit.  The system was necessary before the hand-held spray can became ubiquitous.  Now, spray lubricants are readily available and better suited to the purpose so the cross passage is simply redundant.

No, I don't think you should block the upper passage.  The crank/clutch/dinamo gears are not intended to run dry and need some minor surface lubrication.  The engine mist provides this.  It is a basic principle of the 'singles' engine design.  There will always be some 'total loss' to the oil system.  Some oil mist gets to the clutch chamber, condenses to a growing puddle, and eventually starts to leak out, most likely from the crankshaft passage through the left side cover.  There is a small weep hole at the base of this passage to give you an indication when it is time to service.  There is no system provided to recover this ever-growing puddle back to the sump.  Eventually you just have to remove the lower rear plug to drain it away.  I suppose you could theoretically collect it and pour it back into the reservoir, but I wouldn't.  Nasty stuff with a concentration of micro-detritus from the gears and from the clutch plate degradation.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[peh...@comcast.net]

Gavin:  since you have the plates installed, I'm not fully clear on what part of the installation is problematic.  BTW, when you thread the release rod through the outer pressure plate of the stack, it should be installed so that one turn of thread is exposed proud outboard of the plate.

I suspect you are having trouble with the left-hand, hollow, externally threaded tube which is notched to mate with the head end of the throwout rod.  Is that correct?  Two hands just won't cut it for this task.

Install the shaft through this threaded tube.  It helps to have someone else on the clutch end to hold the clutch plate parts so you don't push all of that toward the left.  Install the springs over the tube and you will likely knock the tube out of position.  Now the trick is to reach between the spring coils with a small screwdriver and pry or hold the threaded tube outward against the head of the clutch rod so the notches stay engaged.  While holding these bits in place, you should be able to install the knurled, outer, spring compressor disc and thread it onto the tube (left hand thread).  You only need to catch one turn of thread or so and then you can remove your prying screwdriver.  Don't bother to fully tension the clutch spring until all the parts are in place and wheels on the ground.

I suspect your problems arise because when you install the knurled spring compression disc you have a tendency to push all the parts (especially the threaded tube) leftward or inward and can't catch the first thread of the tube.  The second problem is that you can't turn to catch that first thread without all of the parts moving.  Again, it helps to have someone else holding all the bits in the clutch side so that nothing moves.

As to your oil lines, I think the 'seats' of the connections will deform slightly to mate with any surface imperfections in the tips of the tubes.  It would be helpful if you could partially assemble the bits and then post a digital photo to show us where and how the tubings interfere with other parts.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gavin Bedggood" <gav...@xtra.co.nz>
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

[Patrick Hayes]

Gavin Bedggood wrote:
> Also two do not line up so I think I will have to get the welding torch
> on them to bend them to the right angle again.
> The long one that goes from the left of the oil tank across and to the
> pump seems to fowl the inlet manifold?? Can people look to see if their
> oil line has a kink in it to clear the mainifold?

Gavin: My line looks like this:

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/falconeblue/MVC-730X.jpg

BTW: I've never seen that manifold casting pore before. Do you suppose
it goes through? Have to investigate that! Duct tape interim.

Patrick

[Rick]

Whatever oil you run make sure it is JASO MA and/or API SG rated. Most
oils sold today through auto parts stores are not. They remove the zinc
additive ZDP (or something like that) because it fouls catalytic
converters. The zinc is an important additive for petroleum oils in high
pressure situations. Primarily cam and tappet wear but also gearboxes in
shared oil applications. Synthetic oils do not require the zinc for this
protection and get the rating without it.

Rick Yamane

Ri...@motionpro.com

www.motionpro.com
Become a fan on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter

[Gavin Bedggood]

Great Patrick, thanks.

The bits I needed were...

 

1. One thread outboard of the plate

2. helps to have someone else

3. small screwdriver and pry or hold the threaded tube

 

I will try again tonight, with assistance, and see how I go!

 

Regards

Gavin

[andrew nahum]

Hi Gavin,

I doubt you need a welding torch. Under the chrome they are only
copper and you will be able to bend them. You could anneal them with a
propane torch to take off the springiness and hardness and make them
softer and easier to bend in nice curves. However the unions at the
ends (we call them banjos here in the south) will be probably be soft
soldered on so you would not want to get them too hot. You could wrap
water-soaked rags round them while you anneal the pipe-work in
between.

A

[Equinox]

Rick has this important oil onsideration correct; see this article:

www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

But the solution is simple. Just ask your local oil wolesaler rep [in the yellow pages]. They should freely advise which line
still has zinc phosphate in it. I have to buy my Guardol by the case, but it then costs like the types that no longer have the
wear protection.
Alternately buy $10+ bottles of additive each time!

Oregon John

[Gavin Bedggood]

Interesting thanks for that.
Tonight I put a magnet on all the lines.... some were steel and some copper
as it turns out.
Only the copper ones are bent.... which should make them easy to anneal and
bend.
Regards
Gavin

[Gavin Bedggood]

Well that worked!

One thread out of the clutch pressure plate, girlfirend holding the clutch, screw driver to lever the threaded tube towards the nut..... magic.

 

According to my rough translation of the handbook, would I be correct in assuming I have the wind the nut on until the springs are compressed to 27.5mm?

I that it?  No locking device? Does it all just stay put?   It does not vibrate out of adjustment at all?

 

Regards

Gavin

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Gavin Bedggood

To: guzzi-singles@googlegroups..com

Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 11:37 AM

Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Help assembling a Falcone clutch!

[Gavin Bedggood]

I have a '62 Turismo, dressed like a Sport, but it still has the 27 carb and
inlet manifold. I have no idea what piston it has as I have not had the
head off, but I am going to assume its a Turismo piston.

I am interested in getting real world road riding preformance from the bike.

What have people done with success to their Falcones?

At this stage I think that at the least I will fit a Sport piston and either
an SS29 or VHB30 carb.

But other options I am considering are....
Higher compession Dondolino type piston
Dondolino cams
SS35 Dondolino type carb
Lightened valve gear and coil valve springs. and if I need valve work I will
convert to valves with smaller stem diameters.
Sheding some weight from the flywheel? (Falcone 8.2kg Dondolino 6.6kg)

Anybody done any of these mods and have comments to make? Other things
maybe that I am not aware of?

Regards
Gavin
'62 Falcone
'76 Falcone Nuovo

[Gordon de la Mare]

Dondolino cam - don't even think about it.
There's no tickover, you need different followers and the manifold would need to go up to 35mm to breath properly.
If you fit a Sport manifold and SS1/29 carb then you could fit a Condor cam - if you know where to find one.
King of Pistons might have a Dondolino piston in stock - I think it was about €200 last time I saw him - but take care over valve/piston clearance.

It's all very well making it go faster - but the brakes don't get any better.

Cheers
Gordon

----- Original Message ----
From: Gavin Bedggood <gav...@xtra.co.nz>
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Guzzi Singles" group.

[Gordon de la Mare]

27.5mm is correct.
No locking device and it doesn't come loose
Gordon

---

From: Gavin Bedggood <gav...@xtra.co.nz>
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wed, 24 February, 2010 12:32:00

Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Help assembling a Falcone clutch!

Well that worked!

One thread out of the clutch pressure plate, girlfirend holding the clutch, screw driver to lever the threaded tube towards the nut..... magic.

 

According to my rough translation of the handbook, would I be correct in assuming I have the wind the nut on until the springs are compressed to 27.5mm?

I that it?  No locking device? Does it all just stay put?   It does not vibrate out of adjustment at all?

 

Regards

Gavin

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Gavin Bedggood

To: guzzi-singles@googlegroups..com

Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 11:37 AM

Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Help assembling a Falcone clutch!

Great Patrick, thanks.

The bits I needed were...

1. One thread outboard of the plate

2. helps to have someone else

3. small screwdriver and pry or hold the threaded tube

I will try again tonight, with assistance, and see how I go!

Regards

Gavin

--

[peh...@comcast.net]

That's it.  Use a caliper to measure the final compressed distance.  Actually pretty hard to get it much tighter.  Bike on the ground.  Someone with a foot on the brake pedal.  You can do most of it by hand but it will start to get painful as you approach full compression.  I use a small length of leather strap and some channel lock pliers to do the final adjustment.  You could just use the pliers, but that would cosmetically tear up the disk knurling surface.  Feh!

Patrick

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gavin Bedggood" <gav...@xtra.co.nz>
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 4:32:00 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Help assembling a Falcone clutch!

Well that worked!

One thread out of the clutch pressure plate, girlfirend holding the clutch, screw driver to lever the threaded tube towards the nut..... magic.

 

According to my rough translation of the handbook, would I be correct in assuming I have the wind the nut on until the springs are compressed to 27.5mm?

I that it?  No locking device? Does it all just stay put?   It does not vibrate out of adjustment at all?

 

Regards

Gavin

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Gavin Bedggood

To: guzzi-singles@googlegroups..com

Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 11:37 AM

Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Help assembling a Falcone clutch!

Great Patrick, thanks.

The bits I needed were...

1. One thread outboard of the plate

2. helps to have someone else

3. small screwdriver and pry or hold the threaded tube

I will try again tonight, with assistance, and see how I go!

Regards

Gavin

--

[c.d.mul...@att.net]

Personally, I'd use the VHB29 rather than the SS1. Two reasons - 1. the SS1 is leaky and poorly metering in my experience, it'll run better overall with the VHB. 2. SS1s are bringing crazy money lately and the VHBs are dirt cheap. On my customer's Falcone I used one from an Ambassador, the only change I made was a 40 slide in place of the Ambo 60 slide. All the jetting was standard Ambo.  

--
Charlie
http://www.AntietamClassicCycle.com

 

-------------- Original message from "Gavin Bedggood" <gav...@xtra.co.nz>: --------------

[peh...@comcast.net]

Find back roads.  Go slow.  Feel the thumping.  Reduce your blood pressure.  Drink less espresso.

Speed is nice, but the first time you need some serious stopping you will be wishing for that old slow motor.

Patrick


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gavin Bedggood" <gav...@xtra.co.nz>
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 5:29:33 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [guzzi-singles] Falcone, making one go well...

[Rossi, Steven (CT13)]

Now you’re talking my language!

 

Steven Rossi

East Haddam, CT

 

---

[Rick]

It's all very well making it go faster - but the brakes don't get any
better.

Cheers
Gordon

Which reminds me of an ad I saw in the BSA newsletter;

For Sale, Norton Electra.....
....brakes crappy but doesn't matter, the bike isn't very fast anyway.

I thought it was funny anyway.... :-))

[Rick]

I agree with Patrick,

If you need some speed buy a better suited bike. We should all have a modern bike or two in our stables anyway. You mention “real world” but in reality, can the Falcone be considered a “real world” bike in this day and age. Expectations need to be realistic.

 

Rick Yamane

 

Rick@motionpro.com

 

www.motionpro.com

Become a fan on Facebook

Follow us on Twitter

-----Original Message-----
From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of peh...@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:20 AM
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Falcone, making one go well...

 

Find back roads.  Go slow.  Feel the thumping.  Reduce your blood pressure.  Drink less espresso.

Speed is nice, but the first time you need some serious stopping you will be wishing for that old slow motor.

Patrick

[guzz...@juno.com]

 I`ve had really good experience with the Brad Penn oil, use it in the land speed racing guzzi and my road bikes too.  Some of the VW performance shops stock it and it`s also popular with the Muscle car and Porsche guys that run flat tappet motors.     Bill

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Jerry Kimberlin <kimb...@comcast.net>
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: The Periodic Clutch Bath

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:11:53 -0800

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Guzzi Singles" group.
To post to this group, send email to guzzi-...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to guzzi-single...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/guzzi-singles?hl=en.

____________________________________________________________
Criminal Lawyer
Criminal Lawyers - Click here.

[John Mead]

Do you have a current address or URL for "King of Pistons"? I tried to contact him several years ago and he had moved.

John Mead

--- On Wed, 2/24/10, Gordon de la Mare <gordo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[c.d.mul...@att.net]

http://www.thekingofpiston.com/sito/sito/inglese/index.htm

--
Charlie
http://www.AntietamClassicCycle.com

 

-------------- Original message from John Mead <john...@prodigy.net>: --------------

[John Mead]

Thank you.

John Mead

--- On Wed, 2/24/10, c.d.mul...@att.net <c.d.mul...@att.net> wrote:

[Jerry Kimberlin]

On 2/24/2010 5:29 AM, Gavin Bedggood wrote:

> At this stage I think that at the least I will fit a Sport piston and
> either an SS29 or VHB30 carb.

That is about as far as you should go. Much more and you
will start detracting from its value. A correct tourismo is
more valuable than a tourismo with sport parts, for instance.

Lightening the flywheel, going to a sport or condor cam, and
putting on a 28.5 mm condor/GTW dellorto are things which do
not change the outward looks.

Coil valve springs are a popular modification on bikes too
and there is some reason for it. The ordinary falcone valve
springs tend to break more easily and good re-pro valve
springs are hard to find.

I don't see much sense in doing much valve work on a Falcone
until you can float the valves. I doubt that will ever
happen...

If you still have the bug to do something, Bazzani has some
parts that are interesting...

http://www.francescobazzani.com/

JerryK

[Guzz...@aol.com]

In a message dated 2/24/2010 10:49:56 AM Central Standard Time, kimb...@comcast.net writes:

http://www.francescobazzani.com/

 

 

Oh Jerry !

 

Nice stuff .......... How about a red manifold dual carb setup ?? I can feel the warm breeze already ...

 

 

Tim

 

Watching it snow in Illinois again ....

[Antonio Ricciardi]

Don't let the warm breeze take you too far guys. I dealt with F. Bazzani before and let me tell You, his prices are................. Far out. But you are right, his stuff looks great. Zipolo         -------Original Message-------

From: Guzz...@aol.com Date: 2/24/2010 2:47:49 PM To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Falcone, making one go well...

[Gavin Bedggood]

Thanks Patrick and others... all info much appreciated!

Regards

Gavin

----- Original Message -----

From: peh...@comcast.net

To: guzzi-singles@googlegroups..com

Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 3:12 AM

Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Help assembling a Falcone clutch!

[Gavin Bedggood]

All interesting points guys.

Some clarifycation needed from me:)
My question was total crap.. let me try again!!

I don't want to go faster than 70mph and only at 50-60 normal speed... but I
want to have the power to get their better... over taking power, weight of
passenger and up hills.... that what I mean by "real world riding"
I figured if I was going to replace the carb and piston anyway I might as
well look into ways that the new parts could be optomised considering modern
fuels and materials. I figure with modern gas running 95 octane then the
engine would stand more than 6.5 Sport compression with out harm. My hand
book says it's built for 80 octane. Thoughts?

Question. Is a Sport cam different to a Turismo? I thought they were the
same?

at this stage then... how about these ideas....

New Sport 6.5 piston, OR something in between Sport and Dondo
compression.... say 7.5:1? Or Sport piston and skim the head or barrel to
get more compression and then worry about push rod lengh!
I have an SS29 in my parts so I will try that first and buy a Sport inlet
manifold to match.
If I can get a spare flywheel I will lighten that one and keep my original
in a box.

Regards
Gavin

[Guzz...@aol.com]

Gavin

 

I have ridden my stock Turismo with the guys around here that have massaged their motors some. They don't necessarily run away from me but I do see a difference. I haven't tried toting a passenger but I don't think I want to. When your rolling along in hilly countryside you need all the momentum you have going for you. A passenger would have to get off and help push... :>)) My experience is there is no "over taking power" to speak of?? They all have a "sweet" spot and that's about it. You try to push her more and it falls flat. But I've never ridden a faster single so what do I know .........?

My Super Alce doesn't like a pillion on board unless your into strolling along at a snails pace.... But solo that's another story ,,,, right Patrick ?? :>))

 

Cheers!

 

Tim

Flat lander in Illinois, USA

[Glenn Bewley]

Very nice article, Patrick. Thank you!

On Friday, January 15, 2010 at 1:39:39 PM UTC-5, pehayes wrote:
> Several people are currently experiencing noisy gear change action and
> poor clutch performance on cold starts. Time for a refresher on the
> clutch design and the required periodic method of bathing the parts.
>
> The Guzzi-Single clutch is composed of a stacked sandwich of 5 steel and
> 5 bronze plates. The steel plates are connected in their center to the
> clutch fixed body hub on the primary shaft of the transmission. The
> bronze plates are connected at their perimeter to the gear-like outer
> body basket. There may be one or two friction material rings installed
> at the base of this stack as well. The outer body basket may run on a
> continuous core bushing or it may have a packet of loose rollers. All
> of these options depend on which model and year you have, but the
> multi-plate design and basic operation are all the same.
>
> Here are pictures of a used plate stack and a fresh stack already
> installed into my SuperAlce.
>
> http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-719X.jpg
>
> http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-718X.jpg
>
> http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-720X.jpg
>
> When the clutch is bound by its spring, the stack of plates and all of
> the clutch components rotate as an intact, unit mass. When you pull on
> the clutch handle, the spring pressure is countered or relieved and the
> various pieces are released and allowed to move independently. In
> theory, the stacked sandwich parts should all slip smoothly over each
> otther so that the outer body remains spinning with the motor, while the
> inner body remains stationary. This allows you to remain in gear with
> the engine running.
>
> In addition to these parts, there is a small passage at the top of the
> crankcase which allows for a fine mist of air and engine oil to pass
> from the crankcase chamber to the exterior clutch chamber.
>
> http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-723X.jpg
>
> http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-724X.jpg
> (the zip tie is in place just to demonstrate the oil passage route)
>
> This mist of oil lubricates all the parts in the clutch chamber,
> including the plates, and eventually condenses into a puddle in the
> clutch chamber. It is a total loss system. There is no way for this oil
> to get back into the engine case. Eventually, this condensed puddle
> grows to the level that the bottom of the clutch parts are sitting in a
> pool of oil and any further excess starts to leak out behind the
> flywheel where the crankshaft passes through the clutch chamber. There
> is no seal for this passage. This blue tape represents the maximum
> depth of oil puddle within the clutch chamber before it will simply pour
> out the crankshaft hole.
>
> http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-722X.jpg
>
> Guzzi didn't want to waste this oil mist, so there is also a
> crossing passage which goes from the clutch chamber back to the right
> side in the vicinity of the chain drive sprocket. Some of the oil mist
> works its way out over here and drips onto the chain as an automatic
> oiler. Clever, but messy. Many of us plug that cross passage to reduce
> the mess and we then relay on modern chain sprays. You can see my plug
> here.
>
> http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-717X.jpg
>
> Warm, thin, clean oil is a very nice substance to put onto the clutch
> plates. It lubricates everything for smooth action and minimizes wear.
> However, cold, dirty oil acts more like a glue than a lubricant and
> prevents free action of the plates. The various clutch pieces all bind
> together and fail to slip as intended. It can become very noisy to
> shift gears, especially down into first gear. The noise also produces
> damage to the tips of the gear teeth. The COMPLETE CURE is to fully
> disassemble the entire clutch package and clean all the parts to new
> condition.
>
> The INTERMEDIATE MAINTENANCE solution is the BATHE the clutch parts to
> remove any oil or dirt or wear material and restore original action.
> Here is the procedure. It will be a VERY messy job so protect your
> floor and be prepared for hazardous disposals.
>
> First, at the lower rear curve of the clutch cover plate, there will be
> a small, slotted screw-plug. Remove that to drain away all of the
> condensed puddle of oil. Here is the drain plug at the lower rear of
> the clutch cover.
>
> http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-721X.jpg
>
> Flipping the cover over, you may be able to see the interior tip of this
> drain plug at the lower left.
>
> http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-722X.jpg
>
> Second, at the top of the left side crankcase you will find an engine
> breather tube which returns crankcase pressure and oil mist back to the
> oil reservoir tank. Adjacent to that breather tube is a slotted plug
> which leads directly to the clutch chamber below.
>
> http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-723X.jpg
>
> http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/superalce/MVC-724X.jpg
> (the zip tie is in place just to demonstrate the oil passage route)
>
> Third, introduce a pint of 'paint thinner' into the clutch chamber via
> the upper plug. If you put too much, it will simply run out the opening
> behind the flywheel.
>
> CAUTION: In America, paint thinner is also known
> as mineral spirits. It is a good solvent, but not particularly volatile
> or harsh to painted surfaces. In Europe however, the term 'paint
> thinner' refers to something Americans call lacquer thinner. This
> latter material is highly flammable and an instant paint remover and
> should NOT be used for this cleaning purpose. In a pinch, you can use
> gasoline. But please don't smoke while working.
>
> Fourth, push the kickstarter repeatedly. While doing so, pull on the
> clutch handle slightly so that the engine does not turn over but the
> kickstarter does go through full throw. In this way, the kickstarter
> will be rotating the inner body and steel plates, while engine
> compression will be holding back the external body and bronze plates.
> The paint thinner will remove oil, grime, and wear contaminants from the
> clutch parts and drop them into the bottom of the clutch chamber cover.
> Do this kicking and feathering for several minutes.
>
> Fifth, remove the plug at the rear lower corner of the clutch cover and
> drain away the contaminated paint thinner. Although dirty, it might be
> useful for other rough part washing tasks around your shop. Let it
> settle for a week so you can decant the liquid off of the settled sludge.
>
> Sixth, repeat steps three through five, perhaps a total of three rinse
> cycles.
>
> Seventh, clean up your mess and go for a ride. It will likely be
> several months or a year before you need to repeat this procedure
> depending on your miles driven.
>
> As a TEMPORARY AID before you have an opportunity to perform the more
> involved bathing or disassembly tasks you can assist the releasing of
> the cold clutch plates. You will generally find that shifting from
> neutral into second gear is a lot easier than shifting down into first.
> So, on a cold started motor, shift into second. Gently rev the motor
> slightly, and, while holding the hand or foot brake, feather release the
> clutch handle a few times so that you force a slippage of the plates
> several times. Do this almost to the point of stalling the motor. This
> will quickly heat the oil film which is binding the plates and the
> underlying components. You may now be able to return to idle and more
> quietly shift into first gear.
>
>
> Patrick Hayes
> Fremont CA
> SuperAlce and Falcone-NT

[Alan Comfort]

Thanks Patrick. That was clear, thorough and well written. 

I have used kerosene (known as paraffin in the UK) for the purpose of bathing the clutch. It works well and does not damage the paint. I expect that it is a little more messy than paint thinner, a little less expensive and perhaps slightly less toxic. 

I once left the oil tap on for a few days and the engine wet sumped. In addition to having the garage floor and half the bike coated with the oil that was efficiently distributed by the back of the spinning flywheel, some of the excess oil got into the clutch chamber. I did not realize this until after I drained the oil, cleaned everything up and went for a ride. The excess oil in the.clutch chamber caused the clutch to slip on uphill grades. The clutch bath cured this. If I had drained the clutch chamber before riding, the second cleanup could have been avoided. I now do this as routine maintenance and pre-ride checks.

 I just had the Falcone out for a tour and a weekend of camping on Vancouver Island. It ran perfectly, was more or less oil tight and kept up with traffic. I avoided the four lane highways. I am still smiling.

Alan in Roberts Creek

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Guzzi Singles" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to guzzi-single...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to guzzi-...@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/guzzi-singles.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Patrick Hayes]

On 5/25/2015 7:01 AM, Alan Comfort wrote:
> I once left the oil tap on for a few days and the engine wet sumped. In
> addition to having the garage floor and half the bike coated with the
> oil that was efficiently distributed by the back of the spinning
> flywheel, some of the excess oil got into the clutch chamber. I did not
> realize this until after I drained the oil, cleaned everything up and
> went for a ride. The excess oil in the.clutch chamber caused the clutch
> to slip on uphill grades. The clutch bath cured this.

The normal assembly of the clutch disc parts calls for coating each
piece with oil prior to assembly. In constant use, there is a
vapor/mist which circulates from the transmission compartment and keeps
these gears and plates all lubricated. I suspect your wet sump and
slipping clutch may be a red herring. Proximity effect. Two things
happen in close time or position and you presume they are related. I
would recommend that you go back to the spring/sprocket side of the
final drive shaft and confirm that your clutch spring is resting at 27mm
total length. That dimension grows as the internal bits wear. Doesn't
take much slack to ease spring pressure and cause clutch slippage on
hills regardless of presence or volume of oil.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Gordon de la Mare]

A sign of too much oil in the clutch housing is that they become a bugger to get into first gear when cold. 

Much grinding and clunking which doesn't happen when lightly misted with oil.

---

From: Patrick Hayes <peh...@comcast.net>
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, 25 May 2015, 17:22

Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: The Periodic Clutch Bath

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Guzzi Singles" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to guzzi-singles+unsub...@googlegroups.com.