Airone sudden stop - Head removal

[K steenst]

The airone has been running great but today it slowed and then after some popping and metallic noises (not good!) it lost all power and stopped.  refused to start even though spark was good and fuel was present.  I noticed reduce/no compression (also not good). I am fearing the worst but the question for now is can I easily remove the head to inspect and then replace it?  I know I will need to remove all the external fittings (exhaust, inlet, oil pipes) but is it simply a matter of 4 nuts and take it off?  And would I then be able to just place it back on without doing anything clever with valves etc?

[Andrew Nahum]

I had a stop like that on a Triumph single. First guess - the head has dropped of the exhaust valve. A

On 23 Nov 2019, at 13:49, K steenst <kste...@gmail.com> wrote:



The airone has been running great but today it slowed and then after some popping and metallic noises (not good!) it lost all power and stopped.  refused to start even though spark was good and fuel was present.  I noticed reduce/no compression (also not good). I am fearing the worst but the question for now is can I easily remove the head to inspect and then replace it?  I know I will need to remove all the external fittings (exhaust, inlet, oil pipes) but is it simply a matter of 4 nuts and take it off?  And would I then be able to just place it back on without doing anything clever with valves etc?

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[SED Sci]

Aluminum head or iron head Airone?  If iron it is about as simple as you say.

Checking valve clearances may give you a clue as to the problem. Other possibilities - bent pushrod, broken valve spring.

Let us know what you find.  

[Dirk Van Ussel]

You will have to take the head off anyway to get an idea.Not difficult and can be replaced easyli. Let us know what parts are needed!

Dirk 

[Mike Peavey]

I'm sure there are others on the list wiser than me, but you go to the effort of pulling the head,  why not first remove the valve covers and have a look, also from there remove  the spark plug  and rotate the flywheel and confirm the valves are moving, or not, it's possible you've just broken a rocker shaft, I don't know if that's considered a common problem, but I've personally witnessed that on two Airone and two Falcone and replacing the shaft is pretty straight forward.

If you need to delve deeper, so be it, but whichever, make sure to leave the engine in TDC, with the pushrods loose, also if so, you'd probably want to leave the valve clearance at the point, .20mm, suggested for timing the valves, which you may wind up doing.

Good luck,
Mike

Mike

On Nov 23, 2019, at 8:49 AM, K steenst <kste...@gmail.com> wrote:

The airone has been running great but today it slowed and then after some popping and metallic noises (not good!) it lost all power and stopped.  refused to start even though spark was good and fuel was present.  I noticed reduce/no compression (also not good). I am fearing the worst but the question for now is can I easily remove the head to inspect and then replace it?  I know I will need to remove all the external fittings (exhaust, inlet, oil pipes) but is it simply a matter of 4 nuts and take it off?  And would I then be able to just place it back on without doing anything clever with valves etc?

--

[Mike Peavey]

Obviously, I meant to say, "before" you go to the effort of pulling the head", a mind is a terrible thing to loose.

Mike

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[Kst 099]

Ha !  Thanks for the advice. It’s an alloy head.  Hope to get into it this afternoon.  Will report back and seek parts advice. I’m in Australia so there’s nothing local 

Kristian Steenstrup +61 414 930 340

Sunday, 24 November 2019, 03:38 +1000 from mpe...@comcast.net <mpe...@comcast.net>:

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[Alan Comfort]

Another possibility with an alloy head is that one of the valve seats has come loose. That happened with my Falcone a few years ago. When you take off the exhaust pipe, you should be able to see if the valve seat has become dis-lodged.

Metallic noises and popping makes me think that a holed piston might be likely. This can occur if you are running a bit lean or your timing is not fully advanced and is pretty much inevitable if you are going up a long grade with a steady throttle under either, or both, of those conditions.

If it is a holed piston, you will need to do a full tear-down to get all the metal bits out of the engine, including the crankshaft sludge trap, oil tank and oil lines.

In any case, start by removing the spark plug to see what you can see, then the rocker covers, then the exhaust pipe, then the head. All will be revealed in the fullness of time. It is not difficult to repair these engines, even after a catastrophic failure.

Alan in Roberts Creek

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[ksteenst]

Thanks Alan.  It did happen on a long straight after about 5 mins at 80 kmh.  Hopefully it is not the worst case as a full tear down worries me!

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[Alan Comfort]

Hello Kristian,

Don't be daunted by this breakdown and don't be afraid to ask for help. When you get it sorted you will be fully bonded with the machine. In the case of a full teardown, it will be an opportunity to renew any other parts that have reached their service limits. 

Keep us posted as to what you find.

Ciao, Alan

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[ksteenst]

Thanks for all the suggestions and guidance. Some research done today (but I have not yet taken the head off). Compression is around 30 psi.  Inspected the exhaust and inlet ports and valves and all seems good (see photos).  They go up and down and no loose elements and the portal to the pushrod ends seems good and operates as expected.  I took videos of them (too big to post) but they appear to move as they should.  Plug has a couple of odd marks on it. piston has shiny scars on the surface (did it ingest something it shouldn't?  It was idling REALLY fast on the ride that it expired on (could a piece of the carb go in?).  I guess the head has to come off but the good news (I guess) is that the valve train seems all intact (tappet covers not yet off - I ran out of time). So I am suspecting a holed piston. Odd observation I noitced.... the fins on the head and barrel are not aligned. Should they be?

[guzz...@aol.com]

a flashlight shinning in the spark plug hole and a screwdriver feeling around will tell you really quick if there's a hole or not... 

Tim

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/guzzi-singles/CAD6azr8cZNkU-RHysC1F0V3vRRkKOwzf94Rk_S%3D%2Bq8qTAFk5qQ%40mail.gmail.com

.

[Kst 099]

Head comes off today.  I am somewhat constrained as I live in an apartment and all this work takes place in a public underground car park in an empty space. Not ideal working conditions ! 🤣

Kristian Steenstrup +61 414 930 340

Monday, 25 November 2019, 07:10 +1000 from Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>:

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[Paul Compton]

A friend built a 200cc Honda race bike in a 7th floor flat. You just
need someone to help you stand the bike up on its rear wheel in the
lift.

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/guzzi-singles/1574634983.406574346%40f29.my.com.



--
Paul Compton
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)

[Kst 099]

Ha ! Great idea but the building manager will be on to it.  I am using his car park space !   When I retire I am going to UPSIZE to a house with a 6 car garage.  

Kristian Steenstrup +61 414 930 340

Monday, 25 November 2019, 08:54 +1000 from paul.c...@gmail.com <paul.c...@gmail.com>:

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[Andrew Nahum]

My best work was done in the bedroom!

On 24 Nov 2019, at 22:50, Kst 099 <kste...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Andrew Nahum]

Who need know?

On 24 Nov 2019, at 22:57, Kst 099 <kste...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[ksteenst]

Further question:  I have removed all the bolts and fittings. But the head wont move. what is the best safe way to dislodge the head from the barrel?  I dont want to go banging away with a hammer and damage something (though i was tempted this afternoon!). The barrel is evidently loosened from the crankcase as there is oil seeping out but that doesn't help getting the head off to inspect the piston. 

also. should the chrome pushrod tube remain attached to the crankcase? It seems to be in most pictures I have found but no one mentioned it here. The is a white rubber O ring where in meets the valve cover. Does that need to be levered off or is it held their by the compression of the head bolts?

[John O Regan]

Hi Kristia,

Get some thick wooden dowel or 30 x30 mm approx about 300mm long

use the end of the wood inserted into the exhaust port at an angle and whack the end of the wood with a hammer

applying some penetrating fluid to the studs may help as well

John

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[Don West]

Never tried it myself, but have heard people talk of the rope trick  Put the piston about half way down the bore.  Feed a rope into the barrel through the plug hole until it is nearly full, then gently turn the engine over.  The piston will push on the rope which will push the head off.

Don

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/guzzi-singles/CAD6azr9YKXJH0bTGgoTAbhSHDdrwQXnU%3DO6n4WFBkE0ZiYRDxg%40mail.gmail.com

.

[John O Regan]

Hi All

Don

I would think it would be easy to distort the piston using that method ?

I have seen pistons bent barrel shaped when uneven pressure was applied (engine swallowed a very small road chip when changing a spark plug)

John

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[ksteenst]

John,

good to hear from you.   What about the pushrod tube? do you leave it connected to the crankcase? It seems to be just pushed into the head with a rubber seal around it. 

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[Patrick Hayes]

Some judicious 'tapping' with a wooden mallet or wooden shaft is in
order. Somewhere robust, not on a fin.

Yes, the pushrod tube stays attached to the engine casing and will pull
free from the head.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

On 11/24/2019 10:26 PM, ksteenst wrote:
> Further question:  I have removed all the bolts and fittings. But the
> head wont move. what is the best safe way to dislodge the head from the
> barrel?  I dont want to go banging away with a hammer and damage
> something (though i was tempted this afternoon!). The barrel is
> evidently loosened from the crankcase as there is oil seeping out but
> that doesn't help getting the head off to inspect the piston.
>
> also. should the chrome pushrod tube remain attached to the crankcase?
> It seems to be in most pictures I have found but no one mentioned it
> here. The is a white rubber O ring where in meets the valve cover. Does
> that need to be levered off or is it held their by the compression of
> the head bolts?
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 8:57 AM Kst 099 <kste...@gmail.com
> <mailto:kste...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Ha ! Great idea but the building manager will be on to it.  I am
> using his car park space !   When I retire I am going to UPSIZE to a
> house with a 6 car garage.
>
> Kristian Steenstrup +61 414 930 340
>
>
> Monday, 25 November 2019, 08:54 +1000 from paul.c...@gmail.com

> <mailto:paul.c...@gmail.com> <paul.c...@gmail.com
> <mailto:paul.c...@gmail.com>>:

>
> A friend built a 200cc Honda race bike in a 7th floor flat. You just
> need someone to help you stand the bike up on its rear wheel in the
> lift.
>
>
> On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 at 22:50, Kst 099 <kste...@gmail.com
> <mailto:kste...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Head comes off today. I am somewhat constrained as I live in
> an apartment and all this work takes place in a public
> underground car park in an empty space. Not ideal working
> conditions ! 🤣
> >
> > Kristian Steenstrup +61 414 930 340
> >
> >
> > Monday, 25 November 2019, 07:10 +1000 from Guzzi Singles
> <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>>:

> mpe...@comcast.net <mailto:mpe...@comcast.net>
> <mpe...@comcast.net <mailto:mpe...@comcast.net>>:

> >
> > Obviously, I meant to say, "before" you go to the effort of
> pulling the head", a mind is a terrible thing to loose.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 23, 2019, at 11:54 AM, Mike Peavey

> <mpe...@comcast.net <mailto:mpe...@comcast.net>> wrote:
> >
> > I'm sure there are others on the list wiser than me, but you
> go to the effort of pulling the head, why not first remove the
> valve covers and have a look, also from there remove the spark
> plug and rotate the flywheel and confirm the valves are moving,
> or not, it's possible you've just broken a rocker shaft, I don't
> know if that's considered a common problem, but I've personally
> witnessed that on two Airone and two Falcone and replacing the
> shaft is pretty straight forward.
> > If you need to delve deeper, so be it, but whichever, make
> sure to leave the engine in TDC, with the pushrods loose, also
> if so, you'd probably want to leave the valve clearance at the
> point, .20mm, suggested for timing the valves, which you may
> wind up doing.
> >
> > Good luck,
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike
> > On Nov 23, 2019, at 8:49 AM, K steenst <kste...@gmail.com

> <mailto:kste...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > The airone has been running great but today it slowed and
> then after some popping and metallic noises (not good!) it lost
> all power and stopped. refused to start even though spark was
> good and fuel was present. I noticed reduce/no compression (also
> not good). I am fearing the worst but the question for now is
> can I easily remove the head to inspect and then replace it? I
> know I will need to remove all the external fittings (exhaust,
> inlet, oil pipes) but is it simply a matter of 4 nuts and take
> it off? And would I then be able to just place it back on
> without doing anything clever with valves etc?
> > --
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> Google Groups "Guzzi Singles" group.
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> >
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>
>
> --
> Paul Compton

> www.morini-mania.co.uk <http://www.morini-mania.co.uk>
> www.paulcompton.co.uk <http://www.paulcompton.co.uk> (YouTube

> channel)
>
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[John O Regan]

Hi Kristian,

There is an Airone manual in the link on Don's latest post, if you do not have one already, a illustrated parts list is also very good to see how the parts fit together

Looking at some other images I can see that there's a spigot where the liner fits into the head

This has probably gone tight from carbon build up?

Patience and penetrating fluid ?

John

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[ksteenst]

The head is still joined to the barrel but I managed to slide it off complete after removing the front guard.  The good news is that the valves seem fine and metal did not get into the crankcase. The bad news is the piston broke up a bit and top ring broke. Barrel is scored and bits of piston and ring imbedded in the head. (see photos).  So I am getting someone to see if the bore can be saved and I will look to get new piston and rings oversized to suit the bore.   Does someone have suggestions on where to source piston, rings and base gasket? Piston has a 70 marked on it so I am assuming it is the original size so that should leave room to go up a size or two from honing. it actually has "70   8" (partial 8)  Does that mean it is a 70.8?  (sending again as it said the files were too big)   

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[Dirk Van Ussel]

Looking at the piston I am quite shure debris went into the sump.You can risk sloshing out the sump but i would't.Theses engines have a minimal oil filtration  so quite risky,even the more as the engine is old(?)  Piston in all size available from the usual suspects,even on Ebay.

Something must have gone wrong:the Airone is a bike with very good cooling capacity so the cause will be elsewhere(faulty ignition,lean carb,hot plug? 

[Alan Comfort]

http://www.thekingofpiston.com/index.php?lang=en

These guys might have your piston as well as a new sleeve. If you measure your piston, you will know the nominal size of the exiting bore. If the bore is too far gone for an existing oversize piston, you can get it re-sleeved and bored to the size appropriate for the new piston. It is best to have the piston and rings in hand before you do a re-bore or re-sleeve.

Once the engine is back together, you will need to determine the cause for this failure. A plug chop will give you some indication of the fuel/air mixture and a strobe light will tell you if your timing is adjusted properly. Does your magneto have auto advance? If it is not advancing fully, that is a sure fire recipe for overheating and destroying a piston.

When running a relatively under-powered motorcycle at high speed for an extended period of time it is best to vary the throttle position from time to time to avoid overheating. On long uphill grades, it is better to drop down a gear and spin the engine a little faster than to strain it in top gear. A well-sorted Airone should be able to run at 80 km/hr all day long on a level road. Even a slight uphill grade is a different story unless you are a 95 lb. teenager.

Alan in Roberts Creek

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[Alan Comfort]

I'm with Dirk on this one. While you are waiting for parts, you might as well strip the engine and make sure there is no debris in the oil passages. If the crankshaft sludge trap becomes blocked, the bottom end could run dry and result in some very expensive repairs. Also, who knows when , if ever, the sludge trap was last cleaned. The only special tool needed is a peg spanner to remove the locking ring on the flywheel. it can easily be made by grinding pegs on a socket wrench.

Make sure you clean out the bottom of the oil tank as well, It has a low spot that can trap debris.

Alan in Robers Creek

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 4:39 AM Dirk Van Ussel <vanuss...@gmail.com> wrote:

Looking at the piston I am quite shure debris went into the sump.You can risk sloshing out the sump but i would't.Theses engines have a minimal oil filtration  so quite risky,even the more as the engine is old(?)  Piston in all size available from the usual suspects,even on Ebay.

Something must have gone wrong:the Airone is a bike with very good cooling capacity so the cause will be elsewhere(faulty ignition,lean carb,hot plug? 

--

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[Kst 099]

The cause has me puzzled and worried. I check the oil circulation every start up and it was returning to the oil tank. I check the plug regularly and it always looks fine.   The time it happened was a long stretch at open throttle 80 kmh. Hot day. As I do t know the previous owner or restorer maybe something was amiss in the prior rebuild.  Piston has 70   8 on it. For that mean 70.8 ? 

Kristian Steenstrup +61 414 930 340

Thursday, 28 November 2019, 22:39 +1000 from vanuss...@gmail.com <vanuss...@gmail.com>:

Looking at the piston I am quite shure debris went into the sump.You can risk sloshing out the sump but i would't.Theses engines have a minimal oil filtration  so quite risky,even the more as the engine is old(?)  Piston in all size available from the usual suspects,even on Ebay.

Something must have gone wrong:the Airone is a bike with very good cooling capacity so the cause will be elsewhere(faulty ignition,lean carb,hot plug? 

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[Rick Yamane]

As to the cause it could be simply wear and metal fatigue. Aluminum has a limited life and looseness in the bore could accelerate the fracturing of the alloy.

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From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Kst 099 <kste...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2019 5:36:07 AM
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: Airone sudden stop - Head removal

 

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[SED Sci]

Looks like detonation to me.  Is the damage near the exhaust valve (hot side of the combustion chamber)?

https://youtu.be/aH-lDh3rVFQ

A rich mixture at small throttle can mask a lean mix at wide open throttle on the spark plug.  A plug chop or closing the choke can reveal a lean mix.

Ethanol fuel runs a little leaner (5%?) than pure gasoline. Higher octane gas resists detonation.

   

Let us know what you think based on the video and reading.  Hope it helps.

On Thursday, November 28, 2019 at 5:36:10 AM UTC-8, Kst 099 wrote:

The cause has me puzzled and worried. I check the oil circulation every start up and it was returning to the oil tank. I check the plug regularly and it always looks fine.   The time it happened was a long stretch at open throttle 80 kmh. Hot day. As I do t know the previous owner or restorer maybe something was amiss in the prior rebuild.  Piston has 70   8 on it. For that mean 70.8 ? 

Kristian Steenstrup +61 414 930 340

Thursday, 28 November 2019, 22:39 +1000 from vanuss...@gmail.com <vanuss...@gmail.com>:

Looking at the piston I am quite shure debris went into the sump.You can risk sloshing out the sump but i would't.Theses engines have a minimal oil filtration  so quite risky,even the more as the engine is old(?)  Piston in all size available from the usual suspects,even on Ebay.

Something must have gone wrong:the Airone is a bike with very good cooling capacity so the cause will be elsewhere(faulty ignition,lean carb,hot plug? 

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[John O Regan]

Hi Kristian,

Yes, I agree severe detonation,

When you posted the pictures of the ports earlier I saw that the exhaust valve looked very white

It looks like the most damage was on the spark plug side ???

So where to start looking ?

If's ???

the auto advance was failing to work properly ?

or incorrect timing

weak mixture or poor fuel quality

Incorrect heat range sparkplug

The high Australian temperatures also won't help

I would be happier to see a new exhaust valve being fitted in the rebuild

Once overheated (as it appears to me) fatigue can set in

Cheers

John

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[Luc Racine]

Sorry for your troubles its not nice but could have been much worse.

 You will find oversize pistons and rings at www.thekingofpistons.com.

 this King is an agent for all italians pistons manufacturer from which you cannot order directly.

 He is first class and speaks english.

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[Kst 099]

Yes. I think I will get new valves to be certain of their health.  The damage was opposite the plug and the plug has always looked good. Even after this event it didn’t look cooked.  (When I was experimenting with heat ranges I did over heat one to silver grey so I know what bad looks like)

If it was opposite the plug it’s less likely to be timing. Could something have been ingested to trigger it   Or a ring Break?

Kristian Steenstrup +61 414 930 340

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[Kst 099]

Love that video. Funny guy and well explained.   My piston looks like neither of those. Crown surface is in excellent condition and the size stamp is visible.  The edge is only damaged at one spot. Right Where the exhaust valve opens. The rest of the edge (apart from some shrapnel wounds) doesn’t look overheated or pitted 

Kristian Steenstrup +61 414 930 340

Friday, 29 November 2019, 03:50 +1000 from SED Sci <doa...@gmail.com>:

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[SED Sci]

The guy in the video has a 2-stroke piston so read the article too.  The article says lean mixes burn slowly and detonation will be furthest away from the plug because that is the last place the flame front gets too.  During that time the heat and pressure exceed the detonation point of the unburned fuel and the remaining fuel detonates hammering the ring land and breaking the edge of the piston.  The area around the exhaust valve will probably be the hottest part of the combustion chamber so most likely to detonate.

My guess is that the edge of the crown broke and bounced around in the combustion chamber.

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[Kst 099]

I didn’t see the link to an article. Just the video. Can you resend ?

Kristian Steenstrup +61 414 930 340

Friday, 29 November 2019, 08:57 +1000 from SED Sci <doa...@gmail.com>:

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[ksteenst]

Does this indicate a piston size 70.8?  or 70 (and the 8 is some other stamp)

[SED Sci]

Here's a link to the original web version.  Let us know what you think.

http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html

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[Dirk Van Ussel]

70.8 is not a normal size.If the bore is 70,the piston will usually be marked 69.95  or something . Allthough plain 70 as well..... Have the bore measured by Your rebuilder,add for the grooves and order from there.

[Jerome Kimberlin]

The piston crown is  stamped with the bore size, not the piston measurement.  Thus, if you have a piston marked 70.8, that will be the size of the bore and the 4th oversize.   The piston will be smaller to allow for the wall clearance.  With the damage shown in the pictures, the bore will have to go out to about 71.2mm I imagine if not further.  I don't know how far you can go before you will need a new sleeve.  On the 500cc machines at 88mm bore, you can go out to 92.x before resleeving.  The King of Pistons will have all the possible oversizes.

JerryK

On 11/29/2019 12:30 AM, Dirk Van Ussel wrote:

70.8 is not a normal size.If the bore is 70,the piston will usually be marked 69.95  or something . Allthough plain 70 as well..... Have the bore measured by Your rebuilder,add for the grooves and order from there.

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[Dirk Van Ussel]

This photograph of an Original Airone clearly shows what I mentioned: bore size 714 mm in this case.,

[Dirk Van Ussel]

Bore size 70 mm is what I meant to say!

Op vrijdag 29 november 2019 16:11:36 UTC+1 schreef Dirk Van Ussel:

[Andrew Nahum]

If you destroyed a piston it's almost certainly lean mixture or ignition timing. Apart from all the usual checks, make sure that fuel is flowing freely. If the tank breather is blocked a vacuum builds up above the fuel and the flow stops. To test, make sure fuel cap is closed in the normal way and take the fuel pipe off the carb and run it into a can for 15 mins at least and see if the flow slows or stops. It's easier to check this with a full tank - if there is a big air space above the fuel level then it will flow normally for an awful long time.

There's another sign if there's not enough fuel flowing at full power. You need a long stretch of open road where you can safely hold the bike at or near full speed. Then carefully close the throttle about 1/8th or 1/6th of its travel. If the bike seems to pick up speed, as the throttle closes, then it's too lean on the main jet (or there is some other reason that the flow is getting checked).  Not very scientific, but if you ever notice that 'speed up' phenomenon it's time to ease off quickly.

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 5:50 PM SED Sci <doa...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Kst 099]

Thanks.  I can’t check the speed up on slightly closed throttle now but I seem to recall it ran slightly smoother when not at WOT. 

One think that i forgot to mention was that the idle was really high in the 15 mins before it failed. Engine was racing at zero throttle 

Kristian Steenstrup +61 414 930 340

Sunday, 1 December 2019, 22:44 +1000 from andrew...@gmail.com <andrew...@gmail.com>:

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[Dirk Van Ussel]

That points to an Original rich tickover combined with a manifold leak?

[ksteenst]

Intake or Exhaust manifold?

On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 7:36 PM Dirk Van Ussel <vanuss...@gmail.com> wrote:

That points to an Original rich tickover combined with a manifold leak?

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[ksteenst]

Very interesting stuff.  I am looking at my piston and I don't see any of the surface heat damage he refers to. The crown and edges look good.  I am suspecting impact damage on the edge of the crown under the exhaust valve. The plug looked OK too. 

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[Andrew Nahum]

I think we can speculate too much about what causes these odd symptoms we all get! 

Often I realise that I am trying to find the quick fix or magic bullet that will make it all good again. Now and then we hit on the answer quickly but sometimes it is elusive. Then the only way is to go back to basics and ensure that everything is correctly set. Clean carb throughout maybe with ultrasonic and blow out and eyeball all the jets and passages. Set timing carefully and check the advance is working. Maybe re-make the intake manifold joints and gaskets  with light smear of silicon gloop - if it could have been drawing air as a previous correspondent suggested. 

Usually, if you do all that factory set up right, it the bike runs fine. I've often been left wondering 'what was the actual problem', but hey!

PS

A barbarian trick - if you suspect an air leak on the inlet side, set the bike idling and spray light oil or WD40 from an aerosol all each the joints and gasket between the carb and the head. If it's drawing air somewhere, the engine note should change when the joint is temporarily clogged by oil and tell you where it's happening. But that's the quick fix thinking. Better to make everything nice first.

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[Patrick Hayes]

What does the stem of the exhaust valve look like? Been trying to seize
and jam open? Valve still concentrically round?

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

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[Andrew Nahum]

Intake manifold. Re my last. Best, A

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[ksteenst]

thanks Andrew and Patrick. 

Valves coming out this week (everything is a slow process with me as the work is done in an undercover public car park!)  New valves ordered just to be sure (and always handy to have spares out here in Australia). On inspection before disassembly the valves looked round and sound and went up and down (somewhat poetic there)

carb is of unknown history so will need to be looked at closely.

Intake manifold had NO GASKET (nothing in the parts manual but i would have thought it should, nor did exhaust (which i now have and will go on when I rebuild). So plenty of gases would be going in and out around intake and exhaust manifold (potentially)

Timing on these Airone are pretty simple. I have checked based on the "cigarette paper in the points gap" trick I learned here.  Advance is auto advance on this one so I dont think there is adjustment I can do. But will recheck everything. 

thanks again for all the guidance and advice on this fun journey. I am determined to get it back operating better than ever. I suspect my prior owner was not as diligent or as connected to experienced advisors as I am . 

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[ksteenst]

Progress. 

Head and Barrel are recoverable.  Will get some honing and cleaning done.  New valves on the way.  pistons and gaskets soon to be ordered.  Damage was not too bad.   Engineering shop thinks it was likely running lean at high constant revs.  Could be lean at WOT setting OR, no gasket on the inlet manifold causing an airleak. 

[Alan Comfort]

Here is my best advice, for what it is worth: Drain the oil into a clean pan, and use some suction to get all the oil from the oil tank. Examine the oil carefully.looking for any hint of metallic residue, the best case being clean and clear, the next case being a bit of silver glitter and the worse case being silver glitter with discernible particles and chunks. The second two cases mean that you must  strip the engine completely, including the oil pump, clean all the oil passages from rocker shafts to the crankshaft, flush out all the bearings and re-assemble the engine with new parts as required. Given that the gasket between the carb and intake pipe was missing, one can only speculate as to the amount of hidden bodgery that could be present in the rest of the engine. I know that it seems like a lot of work and potential expense, but at least you will know what you have. Nothing worse than riding a bike through a tunnel or over a bridge while wondering if now is the time that it is going to seize up. Actually, there is something worse, that being the aforementioned scenario playing itself out with a large truck on your tail.

All that being said, these bikes are simple and robust and will give many miles of reliable service if put right. If not put right, they can be an endless source of aggravation and disappointment. And, as they say: you pay now or you pay later.

Alan in Roberts Creek

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[Andrew Nahum]

V good advice. 

Andrew 

On 3 Dec 2019, at 13:42, Alan Comfort <alan.c...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Dirk Van Ussel]

Any old engine will have a lot of sludge  in the bottom of the crankcase/oil tank. You will have to be careful with modern detergent oils...

[pouma1954]

Don't use detergent oils unless the inside of the engine is clean. 

Envoyé depuis mon smartphone Samsung Galaxy.

-------- Message d'origine --------

De : Dirk Van Ussel <vanuss...@gmail.com>

Date : 04/12/2019 11:36 (GMT+01:00)

À : Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>

Objet : [guzzi-singles] Re: Airone sudden stop - Head removal

Any old engine will have a lot of sludge  in the bottom of the crankcase/oil tank. You will have to be careful with modern detergent oils...

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[Mike Peavey]

If you can’t readily find non-detergent oil at your auto parts supplier, you can use Aeroshell 80 Straight Mineral oil, by the way, Aeroshell 80=40 wt and Aeroshell 100=50wt. Most vintage aircraft, WW-1 etc. that have the same issues with lack of filtration use it and it’s the most common “break-in” oil for modern recip aircraft after an engine overhaul.  I use it in all my Guzzi singles. Available at most small airports or  google it, places in the US, like Aircraft Spruce carry it and ship it, not cheap, $6.75 a quart. 

Mike 

Boston, MA

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[Rick Yamane]

Mike, That’s cheap for anyone riding newer bikes using synthetics! J

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[Mike Peavey]

How true, didn’t think of it that way..

By the way, I forgot this bike is in Australia, but then checked Aeroshell is sold there too, though I’m sure  there may be other aviation lubricant manufacturers there too. Also be sure you specify “Straight Mineral”, there are also Aeroshell Detergent oils.

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[Kst 099]

I sourced some mineral oil easily. There is a whole range of oils for vintage cars and bikes here. Local brand called Penrite   I pumped the old out and replaced it a few hundred kms ago.  Will do so again of course and inspect the old oil as someone suggested 

Kristian Steenstrup +61 414 930 340

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[ksteenst]

Progress report:  barrel was honed easily, head was intact.  New piston and valves (to be sure). Made a base gasket and inlet manifold gasket. Oil being drained and checked. 50w Mineral oil sourced. Rebuild starts tomorrow!.  Lapped the head on the cylinder after some difficulty in getting it on (maybe the head had been altered by the implosion - should it just slide on easily?) . Regardless the head seemed way off at the beginning of the process but is a smooth tight fit now. 

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[ksteenst]

I don't know that i finished the tale.. but the Airone went back together without a problem.  Clearances adjusted and it fired up first kick. Some adjustments to the carb and it idles well and I rode it back from the shop.  So a happy ending. Thanks everyone for the advice and encouragement along the way. 

[jerry atric]

I like a happy ending. Congratulations🙂

[Andrew Nahum]

Congratulations. Great result. I predict it will become one of the favourite bikes you have ever owned and will give immense pleasure! 

I truly believe that these were the best 250s made anywhere back then and today still a delight on the back roads. 

Andrew

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[ksteenst]

It does bring a smile to my face (and to those around) when i ride it. 

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[SED Sci]

Great news!  Enjoy.

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 2:31:44 PM UTC-8, ksteenst wrote:

It does bring a smile to my face (and to those around) when i ride it. 

Andrew

Intake or Exhaust manifold?

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