Ercole Rear Tires

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dryde...@aol.com

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Jun 15, 2022, 7:14:28 AM6/15/22
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The rear tires on my 1959 Ercole have cracked sidewalls making it very hard to talk my way through a New York State annual inspection. The present tires are CEATs.but I'm not concerned with brand.   The size is 19-400C.  They are 8 ply. Does anybody know what modern equivalents might fit the rim? Or if this sizing is available somewhere?  I'm not familiar with sizing method.

Thanks,
Upstate Mark
 

Dave Knaack

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Jun 15, 2022, 7:18:26 AM6/15/22
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You may want to try eBay it. Italian eBay 
Much better availability and demand there 
Or some of the Italian MG parts places 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 15, 2022, at 6:14 AM, 'dryde...@aol.com' via Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:


The rear tires on my 1959 Ercole have cracked sidewalls making it very hard to talk my way through a New York State annual inspection. The present tires are CEATs.but I'm not concerned with brand.   The size is 19-400C.  They are 8 ply. Does anybody know what modern equivalents might fit the rim? Or if this sizing is available somewhere?  I'm not familiar with sizing method.

Thanks,
Upstate Mark
 

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steven s.

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Jun 15, 2022, 9:30:03 AM6/15/22
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Mark,

     Coker Tire in Tennessee would be worth a call. They specialize in antique tires, and make their own.

Steven s.

Rick Yamane

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Jun 15, 2022, 9:40:33 AM6/15/22
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Coker is great for restoration jobs but if you are going to actually ride the “bike” there should be better alternatives. You might check the Heidenau offerings and Dunlops K70 is still available. 
From: 'steven s.' via Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 6:29:58 AM
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Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Ercole Rear Tires
 

Charles Mullendore

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Jun 15, 2022, 11:05:04 AM6/15/22
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19" rim, 4.00 inch width? There are numerous tires in that size, but few in 8 ply. These are popular with Ural owners and are 6 ply.

Charlie 


Alan Comfort

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Jun 15, 2022, 11:09:54 AM6/15/22
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With an Ercole the load rating of the tire is the most important factor if you are going to use the machine for its intended purpose, such as hauling 1500 lbs of  tile, bags of grain,  barrels of wine, crates of fish, etc. If the machine is used for display purposes or just tooling around the neighbourhood, then all the tires have to do is hold air and stay round. The performance rating is irrelevant. If you want it to look right then the Dunlop, Avon or Heidenau sidecar tires would be a good choice.

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Gordon de la Mare

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Jun 15, 2022, 12:12:53 PM6/15/22
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On mine I have Dunlop SP  LT3 75 19 R 400


Gordon de la Mare

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Jun 15, 2022, 12:40:34 PM6/15/22
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I have asked Dunlop Europe for their help in getting a modern tyre size from their old numbering system.
IIRC mine were the same size as fitted to late 20th century Peugeot trucks/vans.


On Wednesday, 15 June 2022 at 17:12:55 BST, 'Gordon de la Mare' via Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:


On mine I have Dunlop SP  LT3 75 19 R 400 C


dryde...@aol.com

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Jun 15, 2022, 12:50:47 PM6/15/22
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Not "4.00 - 19". It's "19 - 400".  The 400 appears to be the rim diameter in my.  About 15.75". Which is what rim appears to be. Perhaps the 19 is width in cm?  I don't know.

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Paul Compton

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Jun 15, 2022, 1:31:24 PM6/15/22
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Probably the overall diameter in inches. Some bicycle tyres are still
sized that way.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/guzzi-singles/1576676586.2377955.1655311840948%40mail.yahoo.com.



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Gordon de la Mare

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Jun 15, 2022, 1:49:07 PM6/15/22
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Here's a translation from French regarding Peugeot van tyres so you can see that the conversion to modern sizes is complicated which is why I asked Dunlop for help.
I will update you when I get the result.

Posted on May 18, 2008
S@lut!

Let's be clear: I will only speak here of the dimensional characteristics without dealing with the load and speed indices (which are just as important).
The original Peugeot fitment for our animals is 19x400 which means that: - the tire bead is 19 cm wide - the bead of the tire is 400 mm (40 cm) in diameter: oddly the width was given in cm and the diameter in mm. - the height/width ratio of the tire is 80%: this is the standard size (known as "balloon") used at the time.
We need to find the dimensional characteristics of the original tire to find an equivalent tire.
Knowing the diameter of the bead and its width (dimensions necessary for mounting on the rims), we therefore lack the outer diameter of the tire (essential in particular for braking power and the speedometer).
This diameter is equal to the diameter of the rim increased by twice the height of the tire: we deduce that if the adaptable tire has the same height as the original tire, the outer diameter will be respected.
The height being equal to 80% of the width, we obtain: 19*80/100=15.2 cm (which we round off to 15 cm).
An equivalent tire should therefore be 19 cm wide, 40 cm in diameter at the bead and 15 cm in height.
The current global standard defines for tires: a width in mm, a bead diameter in inches (") and a height/width ratio in %. Which gives on the example "205/60/15": - 205mm heel width - 60% aspect ratio - 15" (15 inches) in diameter at the heel.
For the width, 195 is the closest dimension. Since a height/width ratio greater than 80% cannot be found, dimension 185 is prohibited for us: the tire would not have sufficient height.
For the diameter the conversion mm > inches gives us: 400/25=16 (we just fall for the diameter of the rim)
The height of the tire must be 15 cm, which gives us: 15/19.5=0.769 or 76.9% (which we round down: 75%).
The closest dimension in the current standard for our machines is therefore: 195/75/16
You should also know that the rims of J9 (thus a fortiori J7) are not designed for tubeless tires: fitting an inner tube is therefore practically imperative.

 @++


On Wednesday, 15 June 2022 at 18:30:49 BST, Paul Compton <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote:


Probably the overall diameter in inches. Some bicycle tyres are still
sized that way.

On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 17:50, 'dryde...@aol.com' via Guzzi Singles
<guzzi-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> Not "4.00 - 19". It's "19 - 400".  The 400 appears to be the rim diameter in my.  About 15.75". Which is what rim appears to be. Perhaps the 19 is width in cm?  I don't know.
>
> Upstate Mark.
>
> Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 11:06 AM, Charles Mullendore
> <c.d.mul...@att.net> wrote:
> 19" rim, 4.00 inch width? There are numerous tires in that size, but few in 8 ply. These are popular with Ural owners and are 6 ply.
> https://www.amazon.com/Duro-HF308-4-00-19-Rear-25-30819-400C-TT/dp/B007HIH34O?th=1
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
> 
> The rear tires on my 1959 Ercole have cracked sidewalls making it very hard to talk my way through a New York State annual inspection. The present tires are CEATs.but I'm not concerned with brand.  The size is 19-400C.  They are 8 ply. Does anybody know what modern equivalents might fit the rim? Or if this sizing is available somewhere?  I'm not familiar with sizing method.
>
> Thanks,
> Upstate Mark
>
>
>
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>
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Alan Comfort

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Jun 15, 2022, 2:18:30 PM6/15/22
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Well...that pretty much flies in the face of everything that I know about wire bead motorcycle tires. Clincher tires and bicycle tires have their own specifications, and it looks like the French have over complicated something that is relatively simple. In my world a 19" tire fits a 19" rim. The variables are the width, the height of the sidewall, the tread pattern the speed rating, the load rating and the shape of the contact patch. I try to fit tires that are as close to the original specification as possible. I think that the Ercole will do well with a 4.00 X 19 sidecar tire as it does not need the curved cross section of a motorcycle tire or the load rating of a truck tire. I'm thinking that a modern 6 ply sidecar tire is probably as robust as the 8 ply tires from the mid 20th century and that you are not going to flying down the autobahn in your overloaded Ercole.
I am running 4.50 x 19 tires on my MG TC. These tires are easy to get, not overly expensive and the extra 1/2" in cross section will probably go un-noticed.
Alan in Roberts Creek

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Rick Yamane

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Jun 15, 2022, 2:27:47 PM6/15/22
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Interesting! Thanks for doing the legwork Gordon.

It reminds me of the mid-eighties when Ford went with a weird rim size for their high performance wheels on several model lines. So a 195/75-16 is a car sized tire. It won’t be found at a motorcycle shop.

 

Rick

 

From: 'Gordon de la Mare' via Guzzi Singles [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 10:49 AM
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Ercole Rear Tires

 

Here's a translation from French regarding Peugeot van tyres so you can see that the conversion to modern sizes is complicated which is why I asked Dunlop for help.

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Gordon de la Mare

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Jun 15, 2022, 3:36:04 PM6/15/22
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FFS the Ercole is a truck with truck tyres not motorcycle tyres so let's wait until I get a suggestion from Dunlop.

19x400 truck tyres are no longer made and haven't been for many a year, possibly this century, so we have to find something that will do the trick.
For ref the tread width is about 6 inches, the tyre width is 7.5 inches and it's about 5 inches high.
The wheel is about 17.5 inches to rim edge and the height of the tyre from the floor to top of tread is about 28 inches.
Vredestein make a 17x400 which will fit but at $800 a pop I think that we need to find something more affordable

The Citroen old van owners suggest 205/75 16 Goodyear which are possibly easier to find but you will need obviously to take the wheel in the the fitting shop to make sure it does fit the rim.

That said in the meantime suggested that we just wait.

Gordon

Rick Yamane

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Jun 15, 2022, 5:16:59 PM6/15/22
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The 205 is one size larger than the 195.
In the US the nearest thing that comes to mind would be a military jeep tire. They are going to be taller than a 75 aspect ratio though. The civilian jeeps came with 15” wheels but the military were 16”. Anyway that might help give you a direction to head in.

 

From: 'Gordon de la Mare' via Guzzi Singles [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 12:36 PM
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Ercole Rear Tires

 

FFS the Ercole is a truck with truck tyres not motorcycle tyres so let's wait until I get a suggestion from Dunlop.

dryde...@aol.com

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Jun 16, 2022, 8:59:36 AM6/16/22
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This selection from Coker Tire would fit the rim.  400mm.  But the load rating is only 1356 pounds. A bit light for this vehicle but would suffice for most of its use.  Wouldn't look right either.  I'll keep looking for now.


Thanks for all the info so far. Any other thoughts are certainly welcome.

Upstate Mark



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Sent: Wed, Jun 15, 2022 3:36 pm
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Ercole Rear Tires

Rick Yamane

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Jun 16, 2022, 12:56:05 PM6/16/22
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Based on the size recommendation from Gordon I went to America’s Tire website and pulled this page up.

https://www.americastire.com/fitmentresult/tires/size/195-75-16

Gordon de la Mare

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Jun 20, 2022, 1:50:47 PM6/20/22
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Here's what I got from Dunlop in Europe as they no longer make 19R400 tyres.

As earlier notes from Peugeot and Renault vans you can do with 16^ tyres though these are 1/4" larger diam.


From Dunlop ...

ETRTO (European Tyre & Rim Technical Organisation)  dimensions for a 19R400C are width 200mm and overall diameter (height) of 728mm.

We have no tyres which are designed to fit your 400mm (15.75") rims. Please under the circumstances find below tyres of similar dimensions to yours but requiring fitment to 16" rims.

If width more important ;-
205 75 r 16C.  ETRTO width 203mm and overall diameter (height) of 714mm.  Reduction in height 2%. Speedometer calibrations may need checking. Measuring rim = 5.5J x 16".  Fits rims 5.5J- 6.5J x 16

If height more important.
215 75 r 16C. ETRTO width 216mm and overall diameter (height) of 728mm.  Measuring rim = 6J x 16".  Fits rims 5.5J- 7J x 16


Hope this helps.

Gordon

John O Regan

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Jun 20, 2022, 2:58:55 PM6/20/22
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Hi All,
Longstone tyres in UK list several types of tyres to fit 400 mm rims 
OK they may not have the heavy construction of the originals but would be much better than fitting tyres that are 1/4 in. Too big for the rims

John

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dryde...@aol.com

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Jun 20, 2022, 11:09:27 PM6/20/22
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First of all, Gordon, thanks for all your efforts to help me. Your information has been quite valuable. AM I reading this correctly regarding that the Peugeot folks put 16" tires on the 400mm rims and encounter no problems?  I've been wondering about this.

Thanks again 
Upstate Mark 
On Mon, Jun 20, 2022 at 1:50 PM, 'Gordon de la Mare' via Guzzi Singles

Rick Yamane

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Jun 20, 2022, 11:27:20 PM6/20/22
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Mark, I don’t think you want to do that. I believe the message is that the 16" tires are the closest in overall size Dunlop offers. They will require 16" wheels. At first I thought they were saying 16" tires would fit the 400mm rims but there is too great a difference to do that. It could be the replica tires from Coker are all you will find to fit. I repeat what I said before about Coker. Their tires are great for restorations but if this is something you intend for actual use I don't recommend them.
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Gordon de la Mare

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Jun 23, 2022, 3:25:29 PM6/23/22
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Hi Mark

I did some searching on this and Michelin expressively suggests to do this.
I would be comfortable followin Michelin's suggestion.

That said if you are not comfortable then hunt for 16" wheel rims that fit thought no clue where to start in the US.

I searched for info using "Peugeot 19r400"

Gordon






On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 at 4:09, 'dryde...@aol.com' via Guzzi Singles

Claude

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Jun 25, 2022, 7:10:39 PM6/25/22
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Hello everyone,
I have found this on Michelin's website

Solution de substitution pour anciennes dimensions

Quelle solution de substitution les Manufacturiers de pneumatiques, adhérents du TNPF, préconisent-ils pour les véhicules équipés à l’origine des dimensions 17 R 400 C 103M et 19 R 400 C 112M qui ne sont plus commercialisées aujourd’hui (à savoir Citroën HY, Peugeot J7 et J9 et Renault SG2)?

Les substitutions suivantes sont préconisées par les Manufacturiers de pneumatiques du TNPF :

– 195/75 R 16C 107/105R en remplacement du 17 R 400 C 103M

– 215/75 R 16C 113/111R en remplacement du 19 R 400 C 112M

Elles doivent être impérativement montées sur des jantes 16 pouces. 


Replacement solution for old dimensions

What alternative solution do the tyre manufacturers, members of the TNPF, recommend for vehicles originally equipped with dimensions 17 R 400 C 103M and 19 R 400 C 112M that are no longer on the market today (i.e. Citroën HY, Peugeot J7 and J9 and Renault SG2)?

The following substitutions are recommended by the TNPF tyre manufacturers:

– 195/75 R 16C 107/105R replacing 17 R 400 C 103M

– 215/75 R 16C 113/111R replacing 19 R 400 C 112M

They must be mounted on 16-inch wheels. Not on 400 mm rim !!!

TNPF : Travaux de Normalisation des Pneumatiques pour la France / Tyre Standardization Work for France

Claude

dryde...@aol.com

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Jul 18, 2022, 9:06:08 AM7/18/22
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Thank you all for your help, research and suggestions.  I found tires that would fit the 400mm rims but their load capacity was minimal and had a passenger car tread design.  The load likely would have been OK since I don't load the Ercole up to its 5,000-pound gross vehicle weight rating.  However, those tires just didn't seem appropriate on something named Hercules. I did find 16-inch rims with the same bolt pattern ( 5 X 5.5" ) .  Jeeps and Willys from the 40's and 50's used them.  Available used on eBay and new reproductions as old WWII Army Jeeps are quite popular with the restoration crowd.  They are only 1/4 inch bigger in rim diameter and there are many truck tires available that will fit.  I chose a non-directional military tread with a 6-ply rating.  Not as heavy as the old 8-ply tires I'm taking off but I'm confident they'll be up to the job.

Thanks again for the help,
Upstate Mark



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