Falcone oil leak

[Paul Marx]

I have a leak from the exhaust valve cover on my Falcone. It only leaks when the engine is stopped, the oil is obviously circulating when the engine is running and no leak is obvious. But If I leave the bike a few days as happens, there is a pool under the valve cover.

I've changed the gasket and even mounted it with gasket cement. One of the cover screws needs a helicoil but I doubt that just one loose-ish screw could account for such a leak. When you look at the oiling setup for the exhaust valve, there's a feed directly from the oil tank and oil is accumulating in the cover leading to the leak. What's more, there's a return from the exhaust valve cover to the crank case and oil is going back into the crank case from there. And leaking beneath on to the suspension springs.

Must I consider this to be a usual occurrence on these machines?

Paul

[Patrick Hayes]

On 6/15/2022 8:02 AM, Paul Marx wrote:
> Must I consider this to be a usual occurrence on these machines?

While there are plenty of places where you can generate an oil leak, the
valve cover gaskets are usually not in the game. Yes, one stripped bolt
hole can distort the cover and allow a leak.

There are several places in this vicinity where an oil leak can occur.
Warm oil can be very thin and flow easily. Once the leakage starts, the
oil drains to and gathers at the lowest point before dripping off. How
certain are you that the oil is actually coming through the gasket?
Maybe starting elsewhere and just gathering where you can see it. I
recommend that you clean the head area fastidiously and then spray
liberally with foot talcum powder. Cheaper the better. Go ride. The
oil will soon show up as a growing brown stain in the otherwise white
powder area. All washes off when you are finished testing.

I'm not sure how the powder would react to the excess heat of the
exhaust header tube. Perhaps cover the header with some kitchen foil
before you spray. Remove the foil and you'll be testing with a clean,
dry header.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Richard Wood]

Can't help too much with the oil leak Paul other than suggesting attention to the helicoil should be prioritised.

I think maybe the oil pipe between crankcase and valve cover is the pressure feed to rockers. It certainly is on my Airone. Also the pipe between valve cover and tank is likely a breather into same.

Regards, Richard

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[Alan Comfort]

The first order of business is to fix the helicoil. You really need to have even pressure on the mating surfaces if they are expected to keep the oil in. Next is to ensure that the mating surfaces are flat. A bit of valve grinding compound on the cover and a little rub on a piece of plate glass will soon show if there are any high or low spots. It is unlikely that the mating surface on the head will be distorted unless it was subject to some blunt force trauma by someone using a screwdriver to separate the parts. If there are any signs of nicks or gouges, then a bit of JB Weld and careful use of a file will put that right. A fresh gasket and a very light application of RTV Flange Sealant will help.

On the other hand, keeping these old engines 100% oil tight is possible, but temporary at best. I do not worry about small oil leaks. A few spots on the garage floor after a long hard ride is OK with me. Large puddles that need a catchment tray require attention.

Alan in Roberts Creek

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[jerry atric]

I share Alan's sentiments above. If its not plastering everything in oil as you go along, live with the drip. But did get the thread sorted.

[Paul Marx]

Thanks for all your answers.

This is what's under the bike after 3 days.

The oil line I mentioned is of course not a feed to the exhaust valve gear but a return from the inlet valve gear to the bottom of the oil tank where it joins on a banjo bolt what I presume is the return from the pump.

As I see it, a leak like that at a standstill is oil trickling down that return line into the inlet valve "box" and the down into the exhaust one where it accumulate and leaks.

I do however need to helicoil that screw.

Paul

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[Richard Wood]

That pipe does "T" into the oil scavenge pump return to bottom left of tank, but note that it connects internally to a pipe running up to top of tank, allowing observation of oil feed return if you take the filler cap off. Hopefully there is something in the design of connection that stops return feeding back into rocker cover.

Richard

[Rick Yamane]

I don’t have a Falcone in front of me to check but keep in mind, oil in the scavenge pump is under pressure when running. A line Teeing off of that will also have pressure. The British bikes use a tee in the return line to feed the rocker shafts. From the photo it looks the same, function wise. Chris's Falcone is pretty dry. The first time I started it there were a few oil leaks but I've forgotten exactly what was leaking. Seems like the tappet adjustment covers seeped a bit and one or two of the oil lines were leaking. As I type this I recall replacing the rubber section of the supply line which had hardened over the years. The bike might leave a couple of dime to quarter sized spots after running.

My GTV has been frustrating because as I find and tackle one oil leak, another seems to crop up. Adding to that is a degree of wetsumping which seems to be allowing oil to be blown out of the left main bearing and kickstart openings. I'm hoping once I fix the last leak I've found, it might remedy the wet slumping too. It's one of the ferules of the scavenge elbow going from the sump to the pump. If that's pulling some air while running, it could easily be the cause of insufficient scavenging. 

I think I should actually have some time to look at things this weekend.

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From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Richard Wood <rcw...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 5:45:15 AM
To: Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Falcone oil leak

 

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[Paul Marx]

Engine running, oil gushes at the top of the filler neck from the return tube. If oil is going back down, which it would appear to be doing, there's a problem, either with that T junction, or inside the oil tank. I'll have a look when I drain the oil. Next winter.

I have a very long list of things to do next winter on various machines including my wife's. I spent nearly a year getting her 500 Laverda painted and sorted.

Paul

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[Richard Wood]

There must be some sort of restrictor at that T connection Paul otherwise much of the return oil would end up in the valve cover.

Thoughts are that once engine stopped there will be a head of oil in the internal pipe. It depends how quickly the oil in the return line drains back through scavenge pump but likely some will seep through restrictor until level in pipe falls below the T connection.

Richard

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[Patrick Hayes]

On 6/18/2022 12:38 AM, Paul Marx wrote:
> The oil line I mentioned is of course not a feed to the exhaust valve
> gear but a return from the inlet valve gear

The upper oil line on the head is a mostly gravity feed to supply oil to
the intake rocker arm. From there it drips to lubricate the exhaust
rocker arm. Thereafter it drains from the bottom of the head and back
into the sump.

There is no real 'pressure' in the system save a small gravity head of a
few inches. The scavenge return line is open to discharge into the oil
tank so pressure can't build in the line.

How much oil are you putting into the tank? The standing level should
only barely just touch the bottom of the angled filler tube. Is it
possible that you are overfilling and obstructing the discharge end of
the scavenge line? If so, you could then establish a slow siphon back
down to the rocker chamber. It wouldn't create a leak, but would supply
the oil if some leak void is present.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Paul Marx]

Thanks for the explanation Patrick. As you can see, the oil return is well below the oil level. I was in fact going to add some oil, the level having dropped after a 700 km run a couple of weeks back. What is the other tube that abuts just below the top of the filler?

If I understand, the oil line visible in this photo that goes to the inlet valve cover is a feed taken off the scavenge. When the engine is stopped, there shouldn't be any oil going down that feed apart from a residual few cc from the scavenge line. So apart from a leak from the exhaust cover gasket which I've tried to remedy apart from one helicoil, where is that oil coming from? It does appear to have stopped after an initial leak on stopping engine. Those few cc from the scavenge line maybe?

Paul

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[Paul Marx in France]

Problem solved, mostly.

Took the exhaust valve cover off, put some Loctite gasket goo on the gasket. The thread on the long screw near the oil union was gone but I managed to clamp down with a slightly longer screw, + 2mm. Did the same thing on another screw but it's only a bodge, I'll have to helicoil or timesert all the scews this winter. That leak is now cured.

There is oil slowly accumulating on top of the suspension springs. That can only come from the crankcase join, meaning that there's a certain amount of wet sumping. I'm not surprised, the oil tap itself is leaking to the outside, I'll try lapping it in this winter when I change the oil, otherwise, a new tap will be on order.

Paul

[Patrick Hayes]

Oil on the spring box could have several sources. There seam in the crankcase halves, the cylinder to case gasket, or the head gasket. My Falcone has all three. I'm not anal about it. Just wash.

Patrick Hayes

Fremont CA

Currently in Mandello. 

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[Rick Yamane]

And on my GTV it was coming from the tube fitting going into the sump.

 

Rick

 

From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Hayes
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2022 11:05 AM
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Falcone oil leak

 

Oil on the spring box could have several sources. There seam in the crankcase halves, the cylinder to case gasket, or the head gasket. My Falcone has all three. I'm not anal about it. Just wash.

Patrick Hayes

Fremont CA

Currently in Mandello. 

On Thu, Sep 8, 2022, 5:19 PM Paul Marx in France <poum...@gmail.com> wrote:

Problem solved, mostly.

Took the exhaust valve cover off, put some Loctite gasket goo on the gasket. The thread on the long screw near the oil union was gone but I managed to clamp down with a slightly longer screw, + 2mm. Did the same thing on another screw but it's only a bodge, I'll have to helicoil or timesert all the scews this winter. That leak is now cured.

There is oil slowly accumulating on top of the suspension springs. That can only come from the crankcase join, meaning that there's a certain amount of wet sumping. I'm not surprised, the oil tap itself is leaking to the outside, I'll try lapping it in this winter when I change the oil, otherwise, a new tap will be on order.

 

Paul

 

Le dimanche 19 juin 2022 à 10:27:43 UTC+2, Paul Marx in France a écrit :

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[Paul Marx]

I've double checked.

It's neither the head or cylinder joins or the oil return from valve box to crankcase. Leaves a leaky tap and leaky crankcase join.

I'm not anal about it either but if it can be cured simply, why not?

Paul

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[Rick Yamane]

Paul on my bike it was the scavenge line on the right side of the sump. The short elbow that goes to the oil pump.

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From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Paul Marx <poum...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2022 11:56:26 AM
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[guzz...@aol.com]

Hey Patrick ,,, bring me back a pair of the 1975 Nuovo Falcone top fork nuts in steel ,,,, pretty please

Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Hayes <peh...@comcast.net>
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Sep 8, 2022 1:05 pm
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Falcone oil leak

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[Patrick Hayes]

Day late and a dollar short. I was at Guzzi Retro yesterday. Pouring rain today. I have no transport. Likely a huge line today.

If I get a chance, I need part number. 

Patrick Hayes

Fremont CA

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[pouma1954]

All the oil lines, excepting the tap are fine.

Paul

Envoyé depuis mon appareil Galaxy

-------- Message d'origine --------

De : 'Rick Yamane' via Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>

Date : 09/09/2022 05:31 (GMT+01:00)

À : guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

Objet : Re: [guzzi-singles] Falcone oil leak

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[guzz...@aol.com]

I just got a call from Chris Collins telling me you had talked to him ,,,,,, thanks buddy , what a great group of guys we have ,,, the part number is 10 50 45 00

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[Patrick Hughes]

Patrick will you be in Mandello tomorrow(Saturday) I will be there with me Falcone, it would be good to meet up.

Regards Patrick Hughes

Harmill Systems Ltd.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

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