How to identify a frame and engine by stamped numbers?

[Steve]

Is there a chart that breaks down engine and frame numbers by year and model?

Thanks,

Steve

[SED Sci]

Steve what is the frame number?  

[Stephen Brisken]

The frame is FAL81.   The engine is FAL93.

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[SED Sci]

It depends on the year.  After about 1953 Guzzi started stamping frame numbers that could be tied to model numbers.  The Columbo book and the Danish(?) Guzzi club have a list of prefixes used by year for the post '54 bikes. 

For frames before 1953 the quick answer is no.  Guzzi built 2 types of frames for the 500s and they are numbered in ascending order from 1921 for the rigid frame and 1928 for the spring (GT) frame.  When Guzzi brought out the 175-250cc series they started a 3rd numbering.

What you can do with the pre-1954 frames is graph the frame number against year and plot a best fit line.  It will then tell you approximately when the frame was made.  You can do this for the OHV and F-head engines too.  L and S series engines are in the same numeric progression and V and W OHV engines are in another.  I've done it for 500cc bike frames and engines from 1934 to about 1950.  

[Stephen Brisken]

The bike is a 1955.  How do I go from there? 

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[Stephen Brisken]

The Columbo book? 

On Thu, Jul 1, 2021, 4:14 PM SED Sci <doa...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[SED Sci]

The Columbo book says this:

Falcone Tourismo (1954-1968)

from frame R 00 AA to frame F 72 CP

Falcone Sport (1954-1968)

from frame FS 00 AA to frame F88 AB

a foot note says that the first group of letters indicates the vehicle type which is followed by 2 numbers and 2 letters that form the serial number.  So FAL would indicate the vehicle type, but I don't know what that is.

[SED Sci]

You can find it cheaper than this:

https://www.amazon.com/Moto-Guzzi-Complete-History-1921/dp/8879113933

You might ask around, or google image search for Falcones with FAL numbers and see if they match the description.

[Jerome Kimberlin]

Shawn,

You said the 500 frames are numbered in ascending order from 1928 for the GT frame.  I think that is only partially true since I have frame number 2951 made in 1935.  I can't believe Guzzi made that few 500cc machines between '28 and '35.  Doubt they started with #1 either, maybe #101 or #1001.  But what do I know?😕  I've always thought the frames were numbered as you say too.....  My GTW is 46146, made in late 1937.  Two years and 2951 to 46146 seems unlikely.  Makes one wonder where they all went?

Actually, the problem is that the commercial frames and the contract (police/military) frames were numbered differently although the frames are the same.  For instance, frame #2951 started out as a 1935 GT17, but it is identical to my GTW.  So there is more than one numbering system for the same product and because time has intervened and parts mixed, it is really hard to find out much about production dates even from the factory records.

Not that this all matters very much.....

Cheers,

JerryK

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[SED Sci]

Isn't your GTW frame 7449?  My GTV frame 6439 has a factory date of Feb 18, 1937.  Guzzi definitely skipped over numbers, but still generally ascending.

[Jerome Kimberlin]

Shawn,  right.  frame 7449, engine 46146.  Even so, that is still a lot of bikes for 2 years and I don't think Guzzi's production numbers are that high for 500 cc bikes.

JerryK

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[Steve in Bend, Oregon]

So, from what I gather here, my bike, a 1955,  with frame number  FAL81 is a Falcone Sport and not a Tourismo?

[SED Sci]

I think you are correct that Guzzi must've been skipping numbers.  They do fall on a pretty straight line though...

[SED Sci]

Steve, I don't know how to tell unless you can find another person with the FAL prefix that knows that FAL models were sports and not tourismo.  Or contact Guzzi for the factory record.  (go to the Guzzi site and search or someone may have a link).

Did you buy the bike???  Pictures???  :)

You can often find the info with internet image searches. I collected most of the 75 GT frame numbers that make up that graph from internet pictures and descriptions.  Lots of pictures show the engine number on the timing case.  It's tedious though.

[SED Sci]

It was the Dutch club.  Here's the link, but it has the same info as the Columbo book.

https://www.mgcn.nl/database/mg-framenummers

[phil.sk...@gmail.com]

Hi all, I am not sure if this adds anything of value but I had my Super Alce checked out against the factory records. Its engine number AV 97221 is and its frame number is AV 30716 and it was sold on the 14^th January 1952 to the army in Turin.

 

Does anyone know how the “two letter and two number” sequence progresses. How does the system progress sequentially from AA 00 onwards?

 

I have a couple of Cardellinos that have this numbering system.

 

Cheers

Phil

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[Steve in Bend, Oregon]

Sport or Tourismo?

[Steve in Bend, Oregon]

[Steve in Bend, Oregon]

[John Ray]

Looks like a Sport.  But what size is the carb?  Sports came with 29 mm carbs.

John

Napa, CA

On Jul 2, 2021, at 9:32 AM, Steve in Bend, Oregon <bris...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sport or Tourismo?<Guzzi Falcone (1).JPG><Guzzi Falcone (3).JPG>

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<Guzzi Falcone (3).JPG><Guzzi Falcone (1).JPG>

[Steve in Bend, Oregon]

John, I am not sure of the size of the carb.  I just have photos now.

[Alan Comfort]

Visible indicators such as headlight ears, footrest mounts and brake pedal are consistent with the Sport variation. It is relatively easy to convert a 

Tourismo to this configuration, but If it has a domed piston, constant mesh gearbox and a 29mm carb, it's a pretty safe bet that it began life as a Sport. 

But, as they say: they made X number of Sports and there are only 2X left.

Alan in Roberts Creek

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[Steve in Bend, Oregon]

Thanks Alan.  What would be the characteristics of a constant mesh gearbox?

[Rick Yamane]

Looks Sport to me.

Low bars, alloy rims, toe brake…..

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[Alan Comfort]

Smoother and faster shifting both up and down is easier with a constant mesh transmission. Helical gears are engaged by dogs rather than straight 

cut gears "crashing" into one another. Hence the term "crash box". The smooth shifting of gears in a crash box requires the input and output shafts to 

be turning at the same speed (relatively speaking). It requires a bit more skill and gear changes must be slow and deliberate.

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[Rick Yamane]

That’s interesting because straight cut gears are more efficient for power transfer. Would think they would be found it “Sport” model bikes.

 

From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan Comfort
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2021 10:46 AM
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: How to identify a frame and engine by stamped numbers?

 

Smoother and faster shifting both up and down is easier with a constant mesh transmission. Helical gears are engaged by dogs rather than straight 

[Alan Comfort]

Looks like the real thing to me. If it is a lash-up, it would probably fool even the most fastidious of the rivet counters.

Alan in Roberts Creek

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[Alan Comfort]

I believe that all of the Guzzi singles had crash boxes until the late forties or early fifties. I wonder if the Dondolinos, Gambalungas, Albatros and other works racers ran constant mesh transmissions in the Fifties? I think that some of the early V7 Sports from the sixties had straight cut gears.

The constant mesh gearbox in my Airone seems to be totally modern when compared to my '37 500S and my Astore/Falcone hybrid.

Alan in Roberts Creek

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[Charles Mullendore]

The earliest V700s ('67) had straight-cut gears, later revised to just a straight-cut 1st, then later to all helical. Small-blocks (V35, V50, etc.) have straight-cut gears. The earliest V7 Sport "Telaio Rosso" (1971) had helical-cut gears, but IIRC a straight-cut transmission was offered during the 850 Le Mans years, some 1000 Le Mans had one, and also the 1100 Sport, Centauro and Daytona (not sure though). 

Charlie 

[Rick Yamane]

Most motorcycle gearboxes I can think of are constant mesh or sliding pinnion with straight cut gears. Most have helical cut primary gears though.

I did just notice one more difference between Chris’ bike and the photos Steve is sharing in the speedo drive. Chris’ bike uses a telescoping rod to a fitting on the right stanchion. The instrument itself is a Smiths in a black case. Any of the things I noted could have been changed between years or even in running production line changes. Moto Guzzis are nowhere near as bad as early Ducati but as many know, Ducati dealers never knew what they were getting when they uncrated new bikes.

 

From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan Comfort
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2021 11:09 AM
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: How to identify a frame and engine by stamped numbers?

 

I believe that all of the Guzzi singles had crash boxes until the late forties or early fifties. I wonder if the Dondolinos, Gambalungas, Albatros and other works racers ran constant mesh transmissions in the Fifties? I think that some of the early V7 Sports from the sixties had straight cut gears.

The constant mesh gearbox in my Airone seems to be totally modern when compared to my '37 500S and my Astore/Falcone hybrid.

Alan in Roberts Creek

 

On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 10:50 AM 'Rick Yamane' via Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

That’s interesting because straight cut gears are more efficient for power transfer. Would think they would be found it “Sport” model bikes.

 

From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan Comfort
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2021 10:46 AM
To: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: How to identify a frame and engine by stamped numbers?

 

Smoother and faster shifting both up and down is easier with a constant mesh transmission. Helical gears are engaged by dogs rather than straight 

cut gears "crashing" into one another. Hence the term "crash box". The smooth shifting of gears in a crash box requires the input and output shafts to 

be turning at the same speed (relatively speaking). It requires a bit more skill and gear changes must be slow and deliberate.

 

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[John Ray]

Just like all the Vincent Rapides which have become Black Shadows, or Ducati Roundcase Bevel 750 Sports which have become Super Sports.  

On Jul 2, 2021, at 10:19 AM, Alan Comfort <alan.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

Visible indicators such as headlight ears, footrest mounts and brake pedal are consistent with the Sport variation. It is relatively easy to convert a 

Tourismo to this configuration, but If it has a domed piston, constant mesh gearbox and a 29mm carb, it's a pretty safe bet that it began life as a Sport. 

But, as they say: they made X number of Sports and there are only 2X left.

Alan in Roberts Creek

On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 9:32 AM Steve in Bend, Oregon <bris...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sport or Tourismo?<Guzzi Falcone (1).JPG><Guzzi Falcone (3).JPG>

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[Alan Comfort]

and it matters not unless you buy bikes for investment purposes only or if you really must take away the grand prize at the concours. My bikes are for riding and I'm not all that interested in provenance.

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[SED Sci]

Nice looking bike!  Chrome tank panels is supposed to be Sport as well.  

The parts books can help.  From memory the sport had the long speedo cable without the telescoping drive. ( i.e., Telescoping speedo drive is tourismo and police bikes).  

The crankcase shape changed with the introduction of the constant mesh transmission - it has bulge on the back of the crankcase between the frame uprights.  It's visible in the parts diagrams and you can probably see it in person, but not sure you can see it in Steves photos.  Weren't all Falcones constant mesh by 1955?

BTW the Falcone constant mesh gears will be strait cut (the efficient and noisy type) like all the 5spd small block Guzzis V50, V65 etc.  Crash boxes have to be straight cut gears.  All helical cut gearboxes have to be constant mesh. 

[SED Sci]

Here is the 1957 parts book.  Stars vs. diamonds for Sport and Tourismo parts.

http://www.rpw.it/Files/Guzzi_Falcone_CPR_3ed1957.pdf

And 1961 shows speedo with telescopic drive.

https://www.rpw.it/Files/Guzzi_Falcone_CPR_4ed1961.pdf

[guzz...@aol.com]

I had a SMITHS gauge geared up for my 1959 Falcone Tourismo .........

Tim

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[pouma1954]

Or Laverda 750 SFs that have become SFCs.

There's a big  difference though. A Falcone Sport isn't worth a fortune.

Paul

Envoyé depuis mon appareil Galaxy

-------- Message d'origine --------

De : John Ray <vel...@sbcglobal.net>

Date : 03/07/2021 00:43 (GMT+01:00)

À : guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

Objet : Re: [guzzi-singles] How to identify a frame and engine by stamped numbers?

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[Patrick Hayes]

My Falcone Club president is currently visiting here. We looked over
the pictures in detail.

The carb looks like a 27 used on a Turismo. The reservoir cap for the
Sport 29mm carb has a very fine or numerous vertical striation or spline
cut. The striation or spline cut for the 27mm is more robust and fewer
in number.

Some others might chime in on this one:
On the right side of the engine casing, immediately below the
compression release lever, is a blind hole. I can't really see the
detail, but I ask if that hole is internally threaded or not?
On a Sport, the foot pedal and shift linkage pivot are a part of the
frame and are mounted more toward the rear of the engine. On a Turismo,
There is a stud or shaft mounted into the hole I mention above. That
stud serves as the pivot for the foot shift lever. The foot support peg
itself is mounted to the front corner of the main frame rail.

I am not certain, but I believe that blind hole was NOT internally
threaded by the factory when used for a Sport assembly but was threaded
when used for Turismo. On the Sport, a plug was pressed in to block the
hole.

Someone with a known, verified Sport might comment on this variance.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Stephen Brisken]

Now we are getting to some important details.  The bike is advertised as a Tourismo.

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[SED Sci]

Best way to confirm how it left the factory is to get the factory record.  You could also find someone that has a Falcone with the FAL prefix that has their factory record that shows whether theirs is a Tourismo or Sport. Either way it looks like it looks like the bike in the pictures is sport spec., probably even with the 6.5:1 piston.  Are you OK buying a bike that someone has done a good job converting?  Pay Tourismo price for Sport equipment?  If it rides as good as it looks, it's a good bike.

Considering Patrick's details you could ask for pictures of the carb number (right side of carb) and the hole in the crankcase below the timing cover. 

[Steve in Bend, Oregon]

Here is the carburetor in question.  Seems it is a Tourismo.  Thanks to everyone helping identify this bike with such detailed information. Much appreciated.

[phil.sk...@gmail.com]

Here is another question regards to Frame and Engine Numbers.

 

We have a 250cc Airone which we are told is a Sport version. However the carb is of the Turismo size so we have some doubts. The engine number is 50178VP and the frame number is VP66EH. Can any of you fine people identify what bit actually is?

 

Cheers

 

Phil

 

From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Steve in Bend, Oregon
Sent: 05 July 2021 21:25
To: Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: How to identify a frame and engine by stamped numbers?

 

Here is the carburetor in question.  Seems it is a Tourismo.  Thanks to everyone helping identify this bike with such detailed information. Much appreciated.

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[kste...@gmail.com]

Very weird. According to the lists I use on the web (eg mgcn.nl) that frame number is a 850 gt.  

Most of the Airone I have heard of start with a M but they did a lot of random number generator back then 

Sent from myMail for iOS

Wednesday, 7 July 2021, 00:22 +1000 from phil.sk...@gmail.com <phil.sk...@gmail.com>:

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[phil.sk...@gmail.com]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the reply,

 

I must apologise for getting the engine and frame numbers totally mixed up with another motorcycle. (an 850GT)

 

The 250 Airone has engine number 81529 and frame number 15540. When purchased, we were told it was an early (1950) Airone Sport.

 

However it has some mix and match parts fitted which makes it very difficult to pinpoint which model it actually started life as.

 

Are there any distinguishing features on the motor or frame that would identify the model?

 

I would welcome any comments or suggestions.

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[briana...@gmail.com]

hi, I have  put together a list of Airone frame and engine numbers, in this list a 1949 touring model has engine number M81756 and frame number 15700. A 1949 sport has numbers engine M83246 and frame 16412. It looks as if your bike is from around 1949. This should have a rear suspension made from tubes similar to the Falcone. The earlier model made from 1939 to 1949 has a fabricated rear suspension and hydraulic damper units and exposed valve springs. The updated model, from 1949  to 1958 has friction dampers and enclosed valve springs. The touring model has forward foot rests with a heal operated rear brake pedal. The sport foot rests are set further back with a toe operated foot brake. The gear change levers are slightly different  in each model.The handle bars of the tourer give an upright seating position whereas the sport gives a more sporty position. The sport has aluminium rims but the tourer has steel rims both have 300 x 19 tyres. The carb on the tourer is a Dell'Orto SBF22 and that of the sport a SS1 25D. The silencer of the tourer is of fishtail type but the sport has a torpedo type. The sport could have a chrome panel on the fuel tank but the  tourer has a black panel on a red tank. 

Hope this helps.