Airone Sport 1951 Dynamo.

[Barry Wilson]

Hi guys,  I have been a member and watching for months and found the info on here the best there is online. well done !   I am at the electrics stage of restoring it and like a lot of Guzzi owners we do all we can ourselves but sometimes need a hand.  The dymano on my bike is the Magneti Marelli 6v 30 watt model.  On inspection I found the wires were not all connected to anything. There are four wires coming from the field coil, why four ?  2 are heavy braided,  yellow and two are lighter wires,  one of those is soldered to one of the terminals in the cover.  Does anyone have either a sketch/diagram of the wiring or perhaps a picture of the end without the cover in place. There is a number on the casing of DN19G30-6-2000D but i hope all the 6volt dynamos will be similar ?

Many thanks for any help you can give.

Regards  Barry Wilson  ( U.K.)

[Mike Peavey]

Barry, I am curious, with the cover removed,  is there is a voltage regulator attached?  It would look like this photo, attached with three screws. In other words are the wires hanging because what they had been attached to, the voltage regulator, is no longer there, or hopefully it is still there and they’ve just been disconnected. 

Mike Peavey

Boston

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[guzz...@aol.com]

Barry ,,,,,,,, while you have the cover off put in a Wassel electronic regulator and save yourself from future headaches.

 

Tim

 

 

[guzz...@aol.com]

I should mention that the Wassel regulator unit bolts right on the old plate without any modification out of sight under the cover.

 

Tim

[Barry Wilson]

I can't thank you enough lads,  I am sure you are right Mike  and I will explore the Wassel regulator  Tim,  Are we talking about Wassel who made all the cables etc here in the U.K. ?  Assuming I get the unit will it come with wiring details ?  if not could I ask one of you to point me in the right direction ?

Best regards     Barry

[Mike Peavey]

Barry, I too am a fan of electronic voltage regulators when the time comes to make the switch, oddly enough, of the 5 Marelli 6V generators I have on various bikes, 3 have been changed over, and all three are different brands, one a Wassel.  Two are installed in place of the originals inside the cap and one, the first which was slightly larger, is located under the fuel tank. 

They do come with pretty good documentation and directions.

Mike 

--

[Barry Wilson]

Thanks Mike,  I have been looking at the Wassell reviews this morning and the quality seems questionable, however another one I found, DVR2 is more expensive but looks too big to fit in the dynamo case.  56 x33 x18mm whereas the Wassell one is smaller.  How obtrusive are the wires ? do you just use the two wires from the D & F terminals to feed the regulator  under the seat or in a toolbox ?

Sorry to seem dim but I am a toolmaker and electrics have always been my weak point.

I have just been restoring the mag, the coil had failed so I fould a rewound one at Valenti's all I need now is the right condensor 0.32mfd, I have a 0.5mfd or a 0.22 any suggestions ?  The original one is available from Italy but if it is NOS it could be faulty couldn't it ?

Regards  Barry  

[guzz...@aol.com]

Podtronics is another brand out there that has been mentioned ,,,,,, Go to either of their Web sites for more info.....

 

 

Tim

[fastguzzidave]

I've used the podtronics, as provided by my rebuilder.  No problem and it fits inside the cover.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------

From: guzzigal via Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>

[Mike Peavey]

I also used a Podtronics, then the 3rd was this unit from Guzzino, it's the slightly bigger one that I installed just under the back of the tank.  http://www.guzzino.com/noname2.html   If the generator is unknown to you and/or it is missing the regulator or the regulator is suspect, you might think about dropping the unit off at a Automotive Generator/Alternator  shop so they can have a look and test it out, if you do go the way of the  Electronic Regulator, give that to them while you're at it and let them wire it up, though as others have mentioned, it's not rocket science.

Mike

[Barry Wilson]

Thanks Mike,   I have found one made in the U.K. which will fit inside the cover, I made a dummy cardboard box to try.  The guy recognises the Mareli unit and thinks his DMR4 will suit, Apparently the windings of the field coils are similar to Bosch and typically European.  There are no Auto type guys in my area, the national outfits only want to restore the whole thing for £300-£400 without regulator so total could be £500, way too much for a poor pensioner :-)   He suggests I do a maximum output of the dynamo before I fit a regulator but couldn't say which wires to check, he also says the field coil resistance should be 2.5 ohms ?

I will have a play with it ,   Barry

[Barry Porter]

Barry,

I assume you meant the DVR4 from Mike Hutchings at Dynamo Regulators? (you typed DMR4)

From the British Bike world, I can confirm the quality of Mike’s products. I have his DVR2 units installed on a number of my BSAs with generators and am completely satisfied. And I know a number of other BSA owners who also swear by his product.

I am currently cleaning up a ’63 Falcone Sport which clearly had battery boiling problems from all the spots on the paint under and behind the seat. I am very interested in this thread. Please continue to keep us updated on your progress.

Best regards,

Barry Porter

[Barry Wilson]

You are right Barry,  its typical old fart fingers getting out of control.  I am faced with all four end coming from the two field coils and one brush wire as the other is still connected to earth,  so five wires which I don't know how to connect to check the total output which Mike says I should do before fitting his DVR4 unit.  Any suggestions ?

[Barry Wilson]

The two yellow beaided wires are from one field coil with 3ohm resistance,  the two on the other side, one has a tag and bit of blue wire added and the black one are from a second field coil that also has a slightly lower ohm reading but isnt shorted out as far as I can check. I then have the bare copper braided lead from the brushon the right, the other brush wire is connected to earth. I have been told that the two coils should be connected in series ( in Lucas dynamo's they are connected internally) for some reason all four wires have been brought through to the outer area.

The loom with the basket case Airone has an external Magneti Marelli round case sealed regulator with a pair of wires which I assume were connected to 51/61 terminals on the lid.  This must be because the original fitted regulator had failed and was removed, could that be why all four wires were were needed.  Hopefully someone can help before I ruin something by wrongly connecting the new DVR4 regulator..   Thanks to all for any help you have offered so far.  Barry

[Barry Wilson]

Hi Mike, I was getting ready to bring it all for you to look at as Boston is only 30 miles from my Home in Sutton on Sea, Lincolnshire, Doh  I guess Massachusetts is a bit further across the pond :-)   ,shame it would have been good to see your Guzzi's.  .  No wonder there is a time delay in messaging. Barry

On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:32:15 PM UTC, Mike Peavey wrote:

[Barry Wilson]

Thanks Dave, I have ordered a DVR4 from an outfit in Hampshire for £75 which he says should be compatible with a Magnetti Marelli dynamo with twin field coils as they are made for european units such as Bosch etc.  I just hope he is right,

[Barry Wilson]

Happy New Year one and all,    I am not a lot further sorry to say.  I have the regulator which will fit easilly into the space where the original fitted, Mike was not familiar with the wiring inside the Magneti Marelli dynamo and issued a warning re connecting his regulator incorrectly but couldn't say which of the wires I have, go to which of his wires. All I need is someone to tell me, do I connect the two coils, which seem to be wound on the same former, together in series and earth one end leaving just one wire to the connect to the regulator ?  How are the brushes connected ? one to earth and the other to where ?   There must be someone who has replaced or fitted an exterior regulator and knows which wires are feeding it.  Lets hope that 2018 will bring enlightenment,  lol.

On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 8:14:00 PM UTC, Barry Wilson wrote:

[Mike Peavey]

Barry, I’m sure there are those on the list far more sharp with electrics than I am, but when I’ve swapped mine Dinamos over to electronic, I’ve simply followed the schematic provided with the regulator showing the existing locations of connections on the existing regulator and how those are transferred to the new electronic regulator.   So let me see what I have for documentation at the shop tomorrow and there may be something that has a little more information than just the simple transfer. 

Happy New Year, 

Mike Peavey

[Barry Wilson]

Thanks Mike, I spent ages on Google last night and did find a couple of articles on Bosch Dynamo's which might help but the more I can get, the less chance of damaging either the field coils or the new regulator.  I didn't expect anyone to spend their New Year looking to solve my problems.  Val and I have a small timber bungalow just down the road that we rent out, the tennant who is 79 rang yesterday morning to say the the foul drains were blocked !!, I spent 2 1/2 hours on hands and knees with drain rods/pressure washer etc clearing them.  some idiot had put dozens of strips of fabric down the loo which caused the problem but he denied all knowledge of how come ?  I am 78 this year and grovelling around sewerage on my knees is not good.  I would only do things like that if a bike was involved. lol.

[Dirk Van Ussel]

As far as I know, the Marelli 6 v dynamo has only one field coil.There is one black field  wire coming out going to mass and a brown that is the field + wire.Maybe someone tried to convert it to 12 V adding a supplement coil? 

Best to take it apart to see how the field coils are wound:You could easily have  two coils partly having magnetism working against each other if the wires are inverted.out that is attached to the casing is the earth connection of the Original field.If You can find someone with a dynamo testing apparatus  he could find out easily what the other wires are.

Dirk/Antwerp 

[guzz...@aol.com]

look at the www.Brightspark.com site and see if that is any help ........

 

Tim

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Dirk Van Ussel <vanuss...@gmail.com>
To: Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>

[Dirk Van Ussel]

You could find outabout the function of the field coils by having the dynamo run like an engine.As one side of the armature is on mass,You could put 6+ V on the other side.Also one of the field coil wires on 6V +.By touching the other field wire to mass,she should start running.If the field wires are rightly connected, she should run in the direction she is normally driven.If not, the field wires should be inverted.You could do the same with the other two supposedly field wires.This will give You an idea about what is inside.No harm will be done to the armature or field coils as the current is low.

Dirk 

[Barry Wilson]

Thanks for that Dirk,  As far I can tell there appears to be a single winding from which comes four wires, 2 heavier yellow braided ones which I assume is a winding which shows continuity, the second pair are lighter and just plastic covered, one of the lighter ones has another wire attached together in a tag with a screw hole, this wire went to one of the output terminals in the cover 51/61 ?  I have now stripped it again to show the field coil/coils .  I am pleased you think I can do no harm by trying to power it as a motor,  I am not sure what you mean by " on mass"  do you mean earthed to the body ?

[Barry Wilson]

Hi Tim, Are you on commission ?  the link takes me to an investment company.lol  Barry

[guzz...@aol.com]

sorry about that ,,,,,,,,,,,, It was a typo ....I resent the correct link ...... the only investment here is playing with old motorcycles

 

Tim 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Wilson <mrsh...@gmail.com>

[Barry Wilson]

Hi Tim, I have trouble convincing my wife that the money pits I have will actually be worth more than I have spent.  Its not the money for me its just the fun of doing it unless you have a Magneti Marelli dynamo .     Sorry but no link came with your post.  Barry

[Dirk Van Ussel]

I mesured the resistance of the field coil on my bike: 6 Ohms.Looks like Your two coils should be series mounted.Attached  is a drawing of the scheme of the dynamo.

As You can see, the + side of the armature and the plus side of the field are connected,the mass side of the field is regulated against the mass.Which means that You  get maximum power when the other field wire is contacted with mass(-) This is the way for You to find out by tryal and error how to get max. power when having the dynamo run on 6V.

Why Your field windings were converted to double coil is a mystery for me and certainly not Original.

Dirk

[guzz...@aol.com]

www.brightsparkmagnetos.com  ...........they may have some explanation on how things work ?

[guzz...@aol.com]

Barry ,,,,,,,,, I have this mag coil in my stash if you want it ...free.... I can't guarantee it  ........just send me your mailing info

 

Tim

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: guzzigal via Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>

[Barry Wilson]

That would be fantastic Tim,  it looks exactly as the original, are you sure you don't want paying for it ?  I will of course at least cover the postage.  My Address details are Barry Wilson, 18 Church Lane, Sutton on Sea, Lincolnshire, LN12 2JB.  I can't wait to get the electrics sorted as I can't time the magneto without the clutch cover in place.   Thanks for the link, I will check it out today.  Best regards.   Barry

[Barry Wilson]

The link works well Tim,  Its a great site with lots of info, although it focuses on magnetos.  A good company to have on file.  Thanks mate.  barry

On Saturday, January 6, 2018 at 2:36:34 AM UTC, Tim wrote:

[Barry Wilson]

Hi Dirk, many thanks for you diagram,  I have tried every way to connect a 6v supply to drive the dynamo like a motor, nothing works ?  I tried individual coils, and coils in series, not even a slight movement of the armature.  I suppose its possible that the armature is dead but wouldn't it at least try to move a little ?

Tim in the USA has found an original regulator and is prepared to send it to me, it may not work he says but might give me a clue about the wiring. We will see.

Keep in touch. Dirk.    Barry

[Barry Wilson]

Hi Tim,  I assume you are in the U.S.A. so if you email me the cost of postage I will send payment by PayPal if you have an account.  my email is.  ba...@shifta.co.uk.   I would need the email address you have registered with Paypal to transfer payment.  I sould have added U.K. to my address.

I hope its not too much trouble, I do appreciate your help.   Take care     Barry.

On Saturday, January 6, 2018 at 2:36:34 AM UTC, Tim wrote:

[guzz...@aol.com]

The UK it is ,,,,,,,,,, I figured as much but I just wanted to make sure ,,,,,,,, :>)

 

..Tim

[Dirk Van Ussel]

If the dynamo doesn't give any sign of life when You put the armature on 6V,even without the field coil magnetized,then the armature is faulty. It should want to move just on the remanent magnetism.You could check whether the field magnetizes with a strip of iron.With a magnetized coil the dynamo should run.

Dirk 

[Barry Wilson]

Thanks once again Dirk, I will give it a try using your advice.  I will report back later.   Barry

[Barry Wilson]

Hi Dirk, Good news ( I think ? )  I connected as I thought it might go with a 6v new battery,  the armature did go round, not 5000 rpm or even close, perhaps a few hundred rpm, does that sould right ??  I now have the original type regulator from Tim in the U.S.  it has two tapped connections and two loose braided leads so added to the wires from the dynamo I told Tim I now have more connections than brain cells :-) ,  Barry

[Dirk Van Ussel]

Well,touch the field with the 6 v while it is running,should enhance the speed .This will enable You to find out how the wires of the two field are wound. By experimenting You can find the right wires to be connected. Remember that the dynamo shoild turn in the same direction when motored as when it is driven.Good luck!

Dirk

[Barry Wilson]

Hi Mike, I was looking at valve/mag timing on here and you seem to know more than most, I was told my bike/engine was a sport, however the cam just has  a number 1 stamped on it ?  there is nothing else.  Is there any way I can check the cam for Sport vs Tourismo  ? Carb is the right one for the Sport.  Regards  BArry

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 10:08:05 PM UTC, Mike Peavey wrote:

[Mike Peavey]

Hi Barry, 

Knowing more than most? I doubt that, and I can only dream of knowing as much as some, but in the mean time, I can tell you what I do know about the Airone cams… From what I can tell, the Turismo cam, 2544, dosen’t seem to be stamped, while the Sport cam, early being 2544bis and the later 2415, from what I can tell are generally stamped, the other thing I don’t know but would really like to get to the bottom of is, what is the difference between the early and late Sport cams 2544bis which I think first appeared in 1949, and then the 2415 cam appeared, for what I can tell, in 1954, are they truly different, or was it simply and numbering change.  In general, from what we can tell the Sport cam has less lift, but a longer duration. 

Here is a photo of a 2544 Turismo cam on the left and a 2544bis Sport cam on the right, I’ve dumbed down the quality so I hope it won’t use up too much bandwidth, I still only have Dropbox, which no one else seems to like or use.  The difference is pretty obvious and even with the poor quality,  you should be able to tell which one is closer to what you have. 

The other easy way to tell is, even though you may have a SSF25A Dellorto, simply measure the intake port on your head, if it’s close to 25mm, you may very well have a Sport, and if it’s closer to 22mm, it’s probably a Sheep in Wolf’s clothing, i.e. a Turismo… 

Good luck, 

Mike 

[SED Sci]

Mike,

I've seen the "bis" suffix in the GTV parts books.  Also "ter"?  What do- "bis" and "ter" indicate?  an update?  an alternative part?  a part that is also found in a complete assembly?

Any idea?

Thanks,

Shawn

[Gordon de la Mare]

It is Latin. 

Bis is second instance of a thing ie an updated component and ter is the third instance. 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

[Barry Wilson]

Thanks Mike,  The port is definetly 25mm and the cam is the same as the one on the right which suggests that it is a Sport cam, Mine is a 1951 with a later fuel tank. I am surprised that the Sport cam is a lower lift as all Sport cams I have fitted in Gold Stars and my CBX drag bike with Megacycle Race cams etc were short duration , high lift ? however we all know that Mr Guzzi had some strange and wonderful ideas, like heel operated brakes. bless him.  Different is great, isn't it ?. 

I now have the regulator from Tim and am wrapping my head around the wiring, If I apply a 6v battery to the right wires/earth I can get the armature to turn like a motor, just a few hundred RPM.  I am going to do some more testing over the next few days. As soon as I get it sorted I will post pictures on here which may help others. If on the other hand it all goes up in smoke there will,be no pictures !!  Wish me luck.   Barry

[Mike Peavey]

Thanks Gordon, I think I was first told what bis meant by Zipolo, but now nice to know why…

Mike 

[Barry Wilson]

Good Morning Guys,  With the help of a friend who has a little more than a smattering of motorcycle electrics,  we managed to get the dynamo to produce 14  volts when driven by a cordless drill !!  This is before the voltage enters any regulator which is still to be fitted.  The dynamo which has the DN19G30-6-2000D marking which I assume denotes that it is a 6volt unit. Is is feasible for it to produce 14 volts ?  The battery connected for exciting the field coils is only a 6 volt one. I have found in the box of bits a 12v headlight bulb,  is it possible that the field coils have been changed in the dynamo to produce 12v ?  Hence the four wires from the fields ?  I finished up connecting them in series which obviously works.  So some success as the dynamo works, but still unanswered questions. 

Tim, Re your regulator, when put on a 6v battery at least one of the coils pulls in the contacts and the second one will (with a nudge on the top,) apparently that is how it regulates the current.  I would like to use yours to keep it original but have the option of the electronic one..

Without the help and suggestions from the members on this forum I would not have attempted to sort this dynamo. It was my first post and I cannot praise you all enough. I still have a way to go but am confident enough to complete it with a bit more help. Well done lads.

[Dirk Van Ussel]

All 6V dynamo's will produce 12 V and more,just a question of regulation.I do not run the Airones on 12 V though.I like them the way they are.You could try to put a 12 V lamp on to see whether there is any amperage. Do not feed the Voltage back on the coils because when You do,It can be destroyed by overtension and current.

Dirk

[guzz...@aol.com]

That's all good news Barry ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, keep marching along mate !

Perhaps the limp coil can be rewind? But keep in mind your not to let any smoke out during the entire process :>)

 

Tim

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Wilson <mrsh...@gmail.com>
To: Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 21, 2018 6:07 am
Subject: [guzzi-singles] Re: Airone Sport 1951 Dynamo.

[Barry Wilson]

Hi Dirk, I put a 12v main headlight bulb on the dynamo output and it worked okay,  However as I have already paid £75 for a 6v regulator I am quite happy to buy new 6v bulbs. I was unsure whether a 6v regulator would handle a 14 volt output without overheating it.    Thanks  BArry.

[Barry Wilson]

Hi Tim, We had quite a few flashes from various wires as we tried numerous ways of connecting regulator/dynamo/battery/ampmeter.  As Colin,  my erstwhile patient friend, and I are both faster than 18,6000 miles a second ( 1/10th of the speed of light depending on the gauge of wire ? ) we were able to not damage anything. I dont think there is anything wrong with the windings, Colin says that it should pull one in easily and the other later to control the output so I will persevere.  Just keep looking East for the signals in the sky Running Bear !!

Thanks once again Tim.

Barry

[Barry Wilson]

Just to correct a glaring error, there is one too many zero's in my Superman speed calculation. :-(

[Barry Wilson]

Hi Tim,  Harking back to magneto's for a second, have you any idea what the difference is in degrees between advance and retarded in the Automatic Magneti Marelli mag. I cant find a way to set the mag at full advance to set uo the ignition timing, is there a knack to wedging it ? If I knew the amount of movement I can calculate the timing accordingly. The mag is in position on the bike. If you decided to "unfriend me" I quite understand. :-)  Barry

[guzz...@aol.com]

sorry mate ,,,,,,,, your degree question is above my pay grade ,,,,,, those with a higher degree will chime in  and then we will all agree or dis-agree ,, then and only then will that answer the question ?!?

 

T

[Mike Peavey]

Barry, per advice from Zipolo when I had questions a couple of years ago, if you have an auto advance mag MCR, it is in the full retard setting at a stand still, so time it re the spec’s in the 1956’ book,  20-21mm, if you have a manual advance, MBL, set it to full advance and time per the 1949 spec’s, B=70-80mm. 

Mike 

[Barry Wilson]

Thanks for answering Tim, Shouldn't you be in bed by now with the time difference ??   The fact I have no degree, just a mere precision engineer/ inventor is probably my downfall.  Check out Mr Shifta on Google, my offering to the caravan/industry fraternity.  Barry

[Barry Wilson]

Thanks Mike,  I knew you would know,  I have downloaded loads of stuff re valve/ignition timing but that helps a lot.  Did you spot that I have the dynamo working at 14volts, All I need to do now is fathom the regulator wiring, so I am well over half way there.  I just asked Tim if he shouldn't be in bed by now,, what time difference do we have ??  its 8.15 in the evening here.  Barry

[guzz...@aol.com]

Since I don't remember what hides behind the cover of the Airone dynamo here is a shot of under the cover of my GTS 500 dynamo DN196 30/6 2000D Marelli.......

 

Tim

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Wilson <mrsh...@gmail.com>
To: Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sun, Jan 21, 2018 2:09 pm
Subject: Re: [guzzi-singles] Re: Airone Sport 1951 Dynamo.

Thanks for answering Tim, Shouldn't you be in bed by now with the time difference ??   The fact I have no degree, just a mere precision engineer/ inventor is probably my downfall.  Check out Mr Shifta on Google, my offering to the caravan/industry fraternity.  Barry

On Sunday, January 21, 2018 at 7:31:33 PM UTC, Tim wrote:

sorry mate ,,,,,,,, your degree question is above my pay grade ,,,,,, those with a higher degree will chime in  and then we will all agree or dis-agree ,, then and only then will that answer the question ?!?

 

T

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Wilson <mrsh...@gmail.com>
To: Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sun, Jan 21, 2018 12:49 pm

[Barry Wilson]

Thanks Tim this is what I expected from mine with just two wires from the field coils, however I have four wires from the same coil, I have connected them in series and now have 14 volts output when I energise the field coils with a 6v battery.  All I have to do now is work out how to connect your regulator after finding a brief circuit diagram of a Guzzi site in Italy.  I will keep you posted.  Barry