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I could use some help find a chain for my '61 Falcone

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Eldo Rado

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Sep 22, 2024, 9:41:00 AM9/22/24
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The Regina Extra chain on my Falcone is toast.

I bought a new 520 non o-ring, non-sealed chains as a replacement. However, the inner and outer connecting links are wider and with the rivets, the chain is 3/32" wider than the original Regina and so binds up in the case.

Can anyone recommend a specific Regina or Diamond chain part number that I can order?

I'm still getting used to chain drive bikes.

Thanks, I appreciate it.
Denis

Mac Dennis

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Sep 22, 2024, 10:05:46 AM9/22/24
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Mac Dennis

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Sep 22, 2024, 11:16:25 AM9/22/24
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Roger Rowland

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Sep 22, 2024, 11:19:32 AM9/22/24
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A comment from Blighty, back in the day chains were imperial measurement, even when fitting inch fraction chain to American machines we had to use ANSI standard as they didn’t fit🤔Assume your have imperial chain here we often use Renold original fitment Norton BSA etc 
          
          Regards Ratt Roger U.K. 
Sent from my iPhone

On 22 Sep 2024, at 15:05, Mac Dennis <capr...@fastmail.fm> wrote:


image.jpeg

Patrick Hayes

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Sep 22, 2024, 12:25:15 PM9/22/24
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On 9/22/2024 6:41 AM, Eldo Rado wrote:
> Can anyone recommend a specific Regina or Diamond chain part number that
> I can order?

My 68-Falcone-NT is very happy with a DID520STD. Could something be
amiss with your front sprocket installation? There are two spacers
involved with the final drive gear and front sprocket. Was this engine
apart at any time? Could you consider an additional spacer ring behind
the drive sprocket to move it away from the case?
--
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Falcone-NT and SuperAlce

RICHARD YAMANE

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Sep 22, 2024, 2:53:44 PM9/22/24
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Since chain width is spec'd by the width inside the sideplates the overall widths can vary brand to brand, or even in the same brand between different grades. The narrowest line of chain I could find was a standard duty DID. This was in a  530 for installation on teens Harleys. They run primary and final drive chains that pass in close proximity. O-ring is naturally out and the normal heavy duty motorcycle chains will hit where they pass in most brands.
Most chain manufacturers, if you go to their websites, have very detailed tables and charts in their tech sections. It's time consuming to be sure but I went through and compared all the specs on the 530 when I had to find suitable chain. 
You need to watch the size, 520 is the most common size but be aware that the overall width and roller diameter can vary. Don't ask me why they want to vary roller diameter but they do. 
I paid close attention to the side plate thickness and overall pin width/length when consulting the charts. 
I'm hoping to get to the shop this afternoon and will try to check Chris' Falcone versus the DID,

Rick Yamane
Importer of Vape/Powerdynamo ignition systems and Polisher of bikes at Motion Pro

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Eldo Rado

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Sep 23, 2024, 8:10:01 AM9/23/24
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Thanks, Patrick, that's very helpful! I'll try that DID520STD you recommended.
I don't think anything is amiss on the Falcone itself. The Regina Extra chain that I removed fit perfectly with not rubbing or interference anywhere. That chain had probably been on that bike since the owner brought it back from Italy in the 1990s.
I was really surprised at how many variations there are on just a few chain sizes. Apparently gold "bling" is in right now.
Denis

Eldo Rado

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Sep 23, 2024, 8:12:05 AM9/23/24
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Rick, the only other chain drive bike I have is a 1940 Indian 640-B. But that's easy. I go to Jerry Greer's website and simply order the right chain, a 530, for that bike and BAM!, it's here. I'm sure it's the same with old Harleys.

Mac Dennis

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Sep 23, 2024, 10:18:54 AM9/23/24
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Renold (note the spelling) chain seems to be the only chain manufacturer targeting classic motorcycles.
Check them out.

Mac
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RICHARD YAMANE

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Sep 23, 2024, 12:16:38 PM9/23/24
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I checked the specs on the DID 520STD. The pin length is .689" with a tensile strength of 6700 pounds. That should be about as narrow and high strength a chain as you are likely to find.

Rick Yamane
Importer of Vape/Powerdynamo ignition systems and Polisher of bikes at Motion Pro

Eldo Rado

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Sep 23, 2024, 1:00:07 PM9/23/24
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Thanks for checking, Rick. That's the one I ended up ordering.
Denis

Eldo Rado

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Sep 30, 2024, 11:03:34 AM9/30/24
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Rick, do you have a spreadsheet with all this information and measurements, etc, you could share with me? The new DID 520STD chain I bought doesn't work either. There is some kind of issue with the chain as it goes around the primary sprocket inside the case. 
Thanks.
Denis

On Monday, September 23, 2024 at 12:16:38 PM UTC-4 richa...@comcast.net wrote:

Patrick Hayes

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Sep 30, 2024, 1:48:42 PM9/30/24
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On 9/30/2024 8:03 AM, Eldo Rado wrote:
> There is some kind of issue with the chain as it goes around the primary
> sprocket inside the case.

Denis: Where are you located? Maybe some other eyes on the issue could
be helpful.

Have you ever removed or exchanged the drive sprocket? It rests against
the outside of the final drive gear. Possibly a bearing or something
inside has moved? Can you remove the sprocket and then measure how far
the gear housing stands proud from the case? Maybe someone else has an
engine under rebuild and could compare that proud measurement.

Patrick Hayes

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Sep 30, 2024, 2:29:40 PM9/30/24
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On 9/30/2024 8:03 AM, Eldo Rado wrote:
> There is some kind of issue with the chain as it goes around the primary
> sprocket inside the case.

I don't think everything is normal about your machine. Regardless, a
simple, cheap, quick alternative solution would be to use a lathe and
produce a nice spacer ring to fit behind the drive sprocket and move it
away from the case slightly. Can you determine how much interference is
involved with the new chain? Likely 5mm or 1/8" would be enough to
create your space. You can measure for the ID and OD of this bodge ring
once you have the drive sprocket off in hand.

RICHARD YAMANE

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Sep 30, 2024, 5:26:26 PM9/30/24
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This should help as far as seeing the chain dimensions.
Sorry I didn't reply sooner. Took the day off to get some prep work for the Giro di California done. 

Rick Yamane
Importer of Vape/Powerdynamo ignition systems and Polisher of bikes at Motion Pro

guzz...@aol.com

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Sep 30, 2024, 8:59:55 PM9/30/24
to 'RICHARD YAMANE' via Guzzi Singles
the chain on my 59' Falcone doesn't have any markings on it but here is a shot of how wide my chain is in the picture.

Tim


.

chain.JPG

Alan Comfort

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Sep 30, 2024, 9:13:18 PM9/30/24
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I have been intermittently following this thread and I cannot remember if there has been a precise measurement of the width of the old chain compared to the width of the new chain. Also, is there any evidence of past clearance issues with the old chain? Obviously a modern O-ring chain or X-ring chain will be significantly wider than the existing OEM style chain. I have noted in the past that some of the off-shore sourced chains have lighter components than the US made or British made chains of the same specification and will therefore be marginally narrower.
A worn front sprocket could introduce a bit of slop and might allow the chain to move laterally.
I like the idea of using a custom made spacer if all the other options have been exhausted.
Ciao, Alan in Roberts Creek

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Patrick Hayes

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Sep 30, 2024, 11:56:22 PM9/30/24
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On 9/22/2024 6:41 AM, Eldo Rado wrote:
> The Regina Extra chain on my Falcone is toast.

Denis: Please clarify. Which of these is true?

Your Falcone was running fine and shifting just fine but the chain
became stretched and warn and time for replacement as routine maintenance.

or

This engine was disassembled and worked on for other reasons. During
reassembly, the chain was evaluated as warn and so time for replacement
with a reconstructed motor. It has not yet run after the new assembly.

I ask because numerous people are happy with the 520 chain and there has
to be some mechanical reason why yours doesn't fit.

Please see this diagram.

https://i.postimg.cc/x8g8Q4Fd/Direct-Drive-Spacer.jpg

Bad engineering drawing. The #67 is a bronze sleeve that fits inside
the #66 direct drive gear as a sacrificial wear part. That sleeve gets
installed from the inside as I have tried to show by arrows. Should
have been drawn on the other side of the gear!

Not shown here is a felt seal and a bearing installed into the right
half crankcase casting.

The final drive gear #66 is installed into the inner race of the
bearing. In doing so, the #65 internal spacer gets squeezed between the
inner face of the gear and the side face of the bearing. The thickness
of the #65 spacer is critical to control free idle of the gears and
spacing between the internal gears. There is a complex section of the
manual which is used to extrapolate and measure the thickness of the #65
spacer.

Once #65/66/67 are all installed from the inside, the engine case can be
closed up and the halves bolted together.

Now to the outside. There is another, larger, spacer #64 which inserts
into the ID of the felt seal and acts as a rotating seal surface. The
drive sprocket rests against the outer face of this seal/spacer. A
castellated nut #62 secures the sprocket onto the final drive hollow
gear shaft. A very short grub screw #61 fits into one of the slots of
the castellated nut and prevents the nut from unscrewing from the final
drive gear hollow shaft.

All of this gets clamped very tightly by the castellated nut #62. There
should be room behind the back face of the drive sprocket to allow for a
standard chain without binding anywhere against the case.

Why could the chain bind?? If this was all apart, did someone err in
installing the internal spacer #65 or neglect to measure and adjust that
spacer's dimension? Everything listed above gets held in position and
located by the outer race of the bearing locked into the crankcase half.
In early days, after bearing installation, the casing would be peened
or chamfered to lock the bearing in place. Modern industrial adhesives
would replace that older mechanical technique. Is it possible someone
may have hammered against the outer face of the drive sprocket or the
final drive gear hollow shaft? In doing so, that might have dislodged
the outer race of the bearing and shifted all of these clamped parts
described above further toward the inside of the engine? That would
simultaneously reduce the space behind the sprocket and lead to chain
binding. But there isn't much room internally and laterally and I would
expect the bearing relocation to make internal parts and shifting to be
awkward or binding, especially into 4th gear.

If the bike was running and shifting quite normally, then I would
certainly explore another thin spacer stacked between the #64
seal/spacer and the back face of the drive sprocket.

Just keep notes so that someone knows WHY you have this extra bodge
spacer the next time the engine is dismantled. :-)

There has to be a reason. We'll get to it. Thinking and writing out
loud helps.

pouma1954

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Oct 1, 2024, 2:58:52 AM10/1/24
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I fitted a 520 chain to my Falcone without any fuss. Probably DID.
Paul



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Date : 01/10/2024 02:59 (GMT+01:00)
À : 'RICHARD YAMANE' via Guzzi Singles <guzzi-...@googlegroups.com>
Objet : Re: [guzzi-singles] I could use some help find a chain for my '61 Falcone

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RICHARD YAMANE

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Oct 1, 2024, 2:59:36 AM10/1/24
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This is a "What else changed" syndrome.
One thing to be aware of is if you should start spacing out (or in) sprockets it is important to keep the front and rear sprocket aligned. If not you will run the chain in sort of a Z pattern and accellerate wear of the chain and sprockets. its easy to see the uneven wear patterns on the sprockets but by then the damage is done. So if this makes sense to you, by spacing the front sprocket you will either be correcting a misalignment problem that already exists or be creating one, anew. Assuming the sprockets are properly aligned this means you will also need to space the rear sprocket an equal amount.

Rick Yamane
Importer of Vape/Powerdynamo ignition systems and Polisher of bikes at Motion Pro

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RICHARD YAMANE

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Oct 1, 2024, 3:03:28 AM10/1/24
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OOPs, I just checked the link I sent. If you haven't figured it out already the charts are on page 10. Sorry, I thought the link would take you there directly.

Rick Yamane
Importer of Vape/Powerdynamo ignition systems and Polisher of bikes at Motion Pro

Phil Macdonald

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Oct 1, 2024, 3:12:08 AM10/1/24
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Did you take the sprocket off? I had a similar issue with my Airone then realised that the sprocket is dished on one side and I had fitted with the dished side inwards loosing clearance for the chain.

Phil

Mac Dennis

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Oct 1, 2024, 11:42:30 AM10/1/24
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I did a little searching and came with these chains. Not sure of the maximum width that can be used.

D.I.D. STD 520 max width 17.5mm   Tensile strength 6.700lbs.

D.I.D. 520 NZ (vintage bike) max width 18.33mm Tensile strength 8,000lbs

RK STD 520 max width 18.5mm Tensile strength 6.800lbs.

Renold 110520 max width 17.5mm  Tensile strength 6.250lbs

Mac

Don West

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Oct 1, 2024, 12:21:34 PM10/1/24
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If width is an issue, Iwis make some high spec chains with narrow plates. 
The details can be found here.  


Don 

pouma1954

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Oct 1, 2024, 2:26:07 PM10/1/24
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I just checked the chain I fitted to my Falcone.
520 from AFAM.
17.6mm across the pins.
Paul



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